oh yeah and im not judging any one, they make it clear what kind of person they are when they get on the bus.

^

We may have a new record for the longest run-on sentence.

^^I dint realize I was at school

oh yeah, and somwe people dont have the ability to look up bus routes before they move some where. some people have to take what they can get in the way of housing, but I guess thats not true either and we all live in a world of make bel;ieve where every thing is alright. If that was true we would not be having this debate and every one would use public transpotation. i love using the bus and the rapid. i have been using it since I was a child and realize the expenses of having a car. there are benefits to riding the bus, but when I said god knows who, i meant the people that make the ride unpleasant, not the people who are just one there to get from point A to b. There are plenty of nice people on the bus and i enjoy thier presence, but If you dont think that it can be a little dangerous then you are simply naive and need to wake up. i have been a ridder of RTa for the most part of my life and know better than to think that bad shit does not happen on the bus. i know that the dar can be juist as dangerous and some crazy people drive to, i wa just saying that cars provide more freedom of movemnt that the Bus. When you have a car you can run errand much faster than using the bus. its not like we live in NYC and every thing runs fast. It is cold outside right now and when you get off work you have to wait for a bus, unless you know some magic spell to make a bus come when you want it. Dont kid any one, some times you have to wait for a bus to come when it comes and not acording to the schudule. i wish every one used the public transportation, that way they would run faster without a problem, but thats not the world we live in and as much as that sucks, it is what it is.

Better watch it KEV!!!!  I found that on this website you become a complete monster if you say the reality behind certain things.  I have found that even though I have seen and experienced many things on a day to day basis...that somehow what I have seen is not factual.  I think some of the bloggers need to work for the Gov't, they would be great at discrediting peoples thoughts.  I agree...I DO like public transportation, but not so much in this city.  The limited rail I enjoy, but the buses pretty much suck other than "rush hour" traffic (or to tailgate on Sunday mornings from the Lakewood/Edgewater area fro me).  Let's face it, the mass transit, other than rush hour in Cleveland, is set up for the poorer people.  RTA doesn't advertise or market well for the average working class person.  RTA uses the excuse of money to why they don't expand rail ( which I think is a preferred mode of travel by the average person), but to be quite honest, I think that the bus system is just a necessary evil that the region HAS to have, and RTA is content with just that thinking.  Why else would Tober have left, with his progressive ideas, and put them into motion in North Carolina?  Can't wait to hear how dumb I am on this one...let the comments begin!  :)

Kevmr25,

 

I have been reading this forum for a while and have just now signed up. Seriously, first you post this skyscraper and act like its God's gift to Cleveland. Then you expect that the local office market will miracously turn around so that developers would make money on such a project.  Get a clue.

 

Secondly, you go about talking about the bus system and describing it in a way that is fairly accurate yet shows a very questionable view on the world and its people.  Until you act like you've graduated from high school, you won't receive much respect here. 

 

JDD,

 

I think that you just rubbed people the wrong way.  You talked about one housing project that was not mixed and compared it to another that will be mixed income.  It made you look as if you don't do your homework.  Combine that with a job that usually takes to the worst part of city (which will naturally color your view on your surroundings) and it makes you sound very negative. 

 

 

"I have found that even though I have seen and experienced many things on a day to day basis...that somehow what I have seen is not factual."

 

JDD - it's one thing to discuss personal experiences, it's another thing to say something so generalizing as the comments kevmr25 made. It's also another thing to suggest that some people actually do have relatively pleasant lives (gasp!) AND happen to live within the city limits.

 

If someone's experienced some awful situations, they're welcome to share here. However, they are NOT welcome to suggest that their unfortunate reality is anyone else's but their own. Not everyone lives in a nasty hood and not everyone has had some god-awful experience with a creep on the bus. Your comments about RTA and public transit in Cleveland for the most part were direct but constructive, without saying "everyone on the bus is a creep/thug/punk/looney". See the difference?

 

"If you dont think that it can be a little dangerous then you are simply naive and need to wake up."

 

"thats not the world we live in and as much as that sucks, it is what it is."

 

Life can be a little dangerous, kiddo - if you're really that worried, lock your doors, have your food delivered, and never leave your house  :roll: Christ, if *I* can handle myself on the 6, 25, or even the dreaded 326, I'm sure that a lifelong transit user would be just fine. I'm not saying that taking a bus is a joyous event, but it's hardly a daily torture. By the way, I'm well aware that having a car for errands can be handy - but thanks to City Wheels Cleveland, I can have the access to a car without the hassle of ownership - it's something you might want to look into: http://www.citywheelscleveland.com/

I hear this kind of whining all the time in Cleveland -- complaints about lunatics on the buses and such. I ride the bus almost every day and have NEVER had a problem. I just thought I'd put that out there as an antidote to some of the other stuff that's been said here.

 

OHLover, thanks for your intelligent remarks and for putting things into perspective.

 

And in a feeble attempt to bring this thread back onto topic: Musky, thanks for the update on the transit center.

Problem is, there is more than one reality, based on who you are, your upbringing, environment, etc. That's why people debate, but if you feel that a disagreement is an attack against your personal values, then perhaps you're not as comfortable with your beliefs on this issue. That's OK. Find something you're comfortable with, believe in it but always be willing to learn. I'm 38 years old and have been comfortable enough with my beliefs and values for 20 years. I feel strongly enough about them to the point that I'm willing to advocate for them. And that's the way it is for me.

ok, so my opiniosn can be a little harsh at times, Im learning people, thats the reason I post here. I respect the fact that you disagree with me. my reality is different than yours, which leads me to believe some of the things that I do. I just get tired of some of the things that i have to see on a constant basis. When you see certian things all the time, it can bog you down. I dont mean to come off as being negative. I LOVE CLEVELADN AND THE TRANSIT SYSTEM. There happy, and i also tell people about the conviniences of using the bus, but come on people, soem times it can get crazy, admit it, we all have stories, but for the most part bus rides are just that, bus rides. and as for my skyscraper, i dont think its GOD's Gift to Cleveland, I posted it on here to get your opinion, and I know its naive of me to think its goingt o be built, but yeah dont crush a young mans dream yet. Soem of you may be older than me, so help mold me to be a more responsible poster, until next time, who knows whats going to be posted by me, stay tuned, I am sure I may offend you agian latter,lol, just kidding.

oh, yeah, I have never been strong in english

ok, lets get back on the topic of the transit center, lets not argue anymore . The transit center deserves the attention, which is a project that I look forward to.

can we cut and paste the last page+ of this thread and put it in some "rants and other assorted rubbish" thread?

 

here, I'll make it easy: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7923.0

I don't get the thought behind that. Do you want the longest thread on here to be the junk removed from other threads? Can you imagine how many pages we are talking?

fyi,  this WILL be the next parking garage built by csu.  however, there may not be anything on top at the time of construction

So, it will be built much like 505 Euclid...with the structural capacity to support a tower and other uses on top?

 

How does the transit center fit into this first phase of construction.  It would seem that CSU and RTA would have to be working together to coordinate at least that much. 

 

This site is going to be very important in tying the south end of campus together.  As it is, it just doesn't feel like a very cohesive neighborhood.  The garage and transit center (plus later additions) stand to make it better because they're to be built on a surface lot, but they really must work to have a pedestrian element, to link the Convocation (Wolstein) Center to the rest of campus...

Yeah, I hate being in that area now. Walking along Prospect Avenue, you can practically hear the surface parking lots and freeway entrance signs screaming in your ear, "Get in a car! Now!"

So, it will be built much like 505 Euclid...with the structural capacity to support a tower and other uses on top?

 

515

 

Yeah, I hate being in that area now. Walking along Prospect Avenue, you can practically hear the surface parking lots and freeway entrance signs screaming in your ear, "Get in a car! Now!"

 

Nice job!

fyi,  this WILL be the next parking garage built by csu.  however, there may not be anything on top at the time of construction

 

CSU is not building this project. They have no funding for it. The state will not pay not for it through CSU. The only way new buildings are going to be built and paid for on CSU is if the State provides funding for it. For example, Fenn Tower is not a CSU project. It is by a private developer.

To paraphrase what was said by the project manager at Osborne and some folks at CSU's Architecture Department. This is RTA's baby.

Interest is being renewed in this, especially from Lorain County. I wrote this report to answer some questions about how to do an introductory rail service for a start-up cost of just ... $13 million (that's not a typo).

 

Here's a link to the report (a 1.6mb PDF download)

 

http://members.cox.net/neotrans/WestShoreGreenwayReport.pdf

 

NOTE TO MEDIA AND OTHERS:  DO NOT QUOTE ME FROM THIS REPORT OR OTHERWISE USE MY NAME IN ARTICLES. HOWEVER, YOU MAY QUOTE ALONG THE LINES OF "...according to a NEOtrans report. NEOtrans is the consulting arm of the nonprofit All Aboard Ohio." CONTACT ME IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.

This is good news, indeed.  But a couple Qs:  1) what's the Kucinich Factor play in all this?  2) What is the possibility to get NS freight traffic reduced (if not relocated entirely) on its line thru Lakewood to facilitate the new commuter service?  3) If it's conventional commuter rail, can service be linked to the proposed thru line east to Aurora?

 

For the Lakewood/West service, I like the idea of NJ/Philly area-type (the new Camden River Line) only if service can be directly routed over Red Line Rapid tracks into Tower City.  I think it would go over big in this corridor, esp the more densly populated areas inside Cuyahoga County.  If not, then it would have to be conventional, bi-level push-pull diesel equipment, which is also attractive and, these days, downright luxurious in some cities (ie South Florida, MARC and Seattle).

I think it's a win-win proposition, either way, and much preferred over BRT (or even light rail) down the middle of Clifton, imho.

 

Kucinich factor -- His opposition to the route through Lakewood appears to be softening a bit. I can't say he'll go for it yet, but there may be some movement there. If the guy can change his opinion on abortion, surely he can change it on this issue.

 

NS traffic -- For a demonstration service using Chicago Metra equipment and a limited passenger schedule, there shouldn't be too much of a problem. NS typically runs only 2-4 trains per day, though I have seen them (from my condo window) run as many as 10 per day as recently as last Tuesday when I was on vacation. NS wants their freight trains departing and arriving within a two-hour window, so there should be some wiggle room. For a full-blown commuter schedule, with passenger trains running every 15-30 minutes during rush hours and every 1-2 hours off-peak, then a rerouting of freight traffic will likely be necessary.

 

Aurora run-through -- Not likely with the demonstration/introductory service as proposed in the report. The goal is to get "something" running to deal with the skepticism, fear and unknowns that too many locals have with regional rail service. If we can overcome that with a long-term demonstration to see what the real ridership base is (not just the wow-factor ridership that comes with a short-term demo), then we can look at more extravagent options.

 

For the Lakewood/West service, I like the idea of NJ/Philly area-type (the new Camden River Line) only if service can be directly routed over Red Line Rapid tracks into Tower City.  I think it would go over big in this corridor, esp the more densly populated areas inside Cuyahoga County.  If not, then it would have to be conventional, bi-level push-pull diesel equipment, which is also attractive and, these days, downright luxurious in some cities (ie South Florida, MARC and Seattle).

I think it's a win-win proposition, either way, and much preferred over BRT (or even light rail) down the middle of Clifton, imho.

 

I think the diesel LRV, possibly retrofitted so it can also switch over to electric motive power under RTA wires, and operated from Lorain to Aurora via Tower City makes a great deal of sense. Let's get the foot in the door first.

I wonder if the new "gold line" name for the bus route that runs along Clifton where we'd like to see BRT, rapid, or streetcar is actually some kind of test. I wonder if RTA is trying to market this route and make some changes (supposedly improved) to the schedule to check out the possibilities.

 

I can't say I necessarily took credit for the new "gold line" name on the bus route, but I sent them feedback about a year ago, and recommended they make a "gold line" BRT to oppose the silver line, and provide better service on the upper-westside. Maybe RTA does take feedback sent to them seriously.

 

I think the west side route should go from Rocky River, into Lakewood on Clifton, turn right on Lake Avenue, and head east on Detroit either all the way to public square, or down W.25th to a new transit center opposite the rapid. I suppose it could even go on to Carnegie, and connect with the Euclid Corridor. Heck, it should just be one line anyway! What I like about my route is that it would connect Market Square, Gordon Square, Edgewater Park, Clifton Boulevard, and Rocky River. This entire area is seeing a lot of significant investment and new housing (Battery Park for instance), and it already has such a high density. It would be good to invest in transit here probably more so than about anywhere else. The Shaker line is nice running into the east side and especially Shaker Square, but the line on the Gold Coast in whatever form would probably be way more successful.

RTA isn't interested in rail on this route or any other (except maybe to the southeast, where I-480 between 77 and 271 is likely the region's most congested interstate). Lorain County officials recently approached Cleveland RTA about running rail service on the NS line. RTA's response was that some more express buses out to Lorain might be done jointly with Lorain County Transit. Lorain County folks said "no thanks."

A Lorain County line doesn't really make sense to me. I don't think it would be used. The Lorain-Elyria metro area population never really goes into Cleveland. Not for jobs, not for entertainment, not for anything really, and vice versa. What Cleveland or Cuyahoga Country resident go west of Cuyahoga Country for anything?

 

I grew up in Avon Lake, which is one of the few cities outside of Cuyahoga County that gets RTA bus service. It is very limited and only available during rush hour, but I think enough people do use it. Avon Lake has been getting RTA service for as long as I can remember. Avon Lake and Avon are the only two cities in Lorain County where the residents travel east (and we do for everything), and the only Lorain County cities that could be considered part of the real Cleveland metropotolitan area for this reason. It is unfortunate, because their development and prosperity has been due to suburban sprawl in Cleveland, but a lot of people in Avon and Avon Lake do work downtown, and go into the city regularly (compartively speaking of course, because not enough people from these cities go into the city for pleasure). Traveling on I-90 from Avon or Avon Lake only takes 25 minutes to get to Public Square.

 

So the only justification I think in creating a commuter line west into Lorain County would be to reach Avon and Avon Lake better, but even so, these communties are designed so poorly that you would always have to have an automobile and public transit routes (even community circulators) wouldn't work very well. RTA would be better justified in simply improving some kind of service into Bay Village or Westlake for the area residents and those west into Lorain County to meet up with. I think the Westlake Park-n-Ride lot has been successful (as far as I am aware of) for this reason.

 

Interestingly enough though, there used to be a lakeshore line running from downtown Cleveland to downtown Lorain. Electric Boulevard in Avon Lake and a little bit of Bay Village (hence the name) is where the tracks used to lay. The space has been turned into a residential street in the 60s, and probably incapable of returning for lack of space.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However Parsons Brinckerhoff, an internationally respected transportation planning/engineering firm, came up with a different conclusion. They analyzed all Northeast Ohio commuter routes in the late 1990s and found the Cleveland to Lorain rail corridor as having the highest ridership, revenue and feasibility potential of any route they analyzed. The feasbility wasn't just based on the ridership and revenue, but in terms of capital start-up costs. Since then, the route sees far fewer freight trains, negating the need for adding a second main track to much of the route. Also, the fire sale going at Chicago's Metra (cheap, good rail cars) and at Amtrak (cheap, new locomotives) will significantly reduce that expenditure as well to mere pennies on the dollar.

 

Parsons Brinckerhoff found in their travel surveys that there was enough of a travel demand to make downtown Lorain the western terminus of the rail service. Some have suggested that going as far west as Vermilion also is worthwhile.

 

Right now, there is no way for an urban Cleveland resident to reach any shift for the industrial and commercial employers in Lorain County and much of Western Cuyahoga County (namely Westlake). To balance the commuter rail schedule, there will have to be some reverse rush-hour trains operated. Might as well carry people on those than have them dead-head.

 

Cleveland RTA bus schedules from Avon/Avon Lake have three buses inbound in the morning rush and three outbound in the afternoon rush. To/from Public Square, these take about one hour (slightly more in the morning, slightly less in the afternoon).

 

The commuter rail schedule (including a transfer to the Red Line at West Boulevard in the interim) would take about 40 minutes to/from Avon. Through rail service, with no change of train, to downtown would take less time.

 

To/from Westlake Park-n-Ride, RTA freeway flyer buses take 35 minutes inbound in the morning to Public Square, and 28 minutes outbound in the afternoon. The rail service would take about a half-hour, including the change of train at West Boulevard. Through service would be even faster.

 

The number of buses it takes to serve these two cities alone is unecessarily large and costly -- not to mention what's needed to serve the densely populated cities of Rocky River and Lakewood and the Cudell neighborhood of Cleveland (where their main business districts are within 500 feet of the tracks).

 

The train wouldn't be subject to snow storms, or road construction or the frequent accidents on I-90. Plus, the Inner Belt is about to go under ODOT's knife for the next decade. And gas prices are only going to go up. Rail is more fuel efficient than buses (especially when you have to operate so many to offer those wasteful point-to-point schedules, or when you try to operate a bus over long distances like a train and have it stop in every business/housing node along the way). And, of course, rail can be powered by electricity, making it virtually invulnerable to oil price spikes.

 

But don't take my word for it. Get the NOACA NEOrail report and read why Parsons Brinckerhoff thought so highly of the West Shore Corridor. Their short answer: few other long-distance corridors in the region have as much traffic bound for downtown Cleveland as the West Shore (to say nothing of the shorter trips to Lakewood's downtown, or other destinations along the route).

I understand the desire for light rail along Clifton Boulevard, but I think it would ultimately make more sense to keep the line on Detroit. I would be all for having the line go down Detroit to Lake, and then up Clifton -- but that would make it more difficult to get the line to continue into Lakewood on Detroit, one of the most transit-desperate stretches of road in Greater Cleveland.

 

It's one of my biggest dreams to see a Detroit-Superior light rail line. Some day, right?

I think Detroit Avenue in a lot of places is just too narrow to support a rail or streetcar line, but thats just my impression.

It wasn't back in the day and the road is the same width today....

 

On Detroit at Cook Avenue, 1951

 

 

On Detroit at Warren Road, 1949

 

 

However, I favor operating rail transit over the NS line, which stays less than 1,000 feet from Detroit Avenue across Lakewood, except until the very western end of the city.

Vulpster03, I disagree with your thinking.  For one thing, I think the traffic along the corridor more than justify the relative small start up cost for this line vs. it's probable strong impact in moving large numbers of people through this dense corridor, esp Lakewood.  Secondly, and most importantly, new rail mass transit serves as much as a tool to move existing commuters, a source for influencing commuter movement and future development -- such development most likely being high density TOD development around and near rail stations. 

 

If the Van Swearingens used your mode of thinking, why build the Shaker Rapid as there was little more than a few mansions and a lot of open farmland in the area at the time the Rapid was built?  But as we know, of course, within 10 years of the Rapid's opening, Shaker Heights and Shaker Square exploded with luxury housing and high density apartment building, both at the Square and at various points along Van Aken Boulevard.

 

I think this Lorain commuter rail line makes perfect sense and can even aid residents along the line speed to the airport with the Red Line Connection at West Blvd.

How many cars, trainsets would be needed to start up this Lorain (or Vermillion)-to-Red Line commuter line?  Should their be a stop at W. 117 as well as Downtown Lakewood near Warren?  What's the probable start up timetable for this service?

Parsons Brinckerhoff, an internationally respected transportation planning/engineering firm, came up with a different conclusion.

 

A lot of people respect B&N too. ;)

holy cow vulpster -- no one goes to cleveland from out west there? you've got to be kidding me. at least three in my family in lorain/elyria will be going to cleveland tomorrow for work. hmm, i suppose no one from mentor on the eastside goes to cleveland either? did you ever see the noaca recs for commuter rail? that was the number one preferred routing and prob would have been happening by now if kucinich had not killed it off.

clvdr, I strongly support a west shore line. If you read my first post on this forum, I talked about how great it would be if Market Square/Ohio City, Gordon Square/Detroit-shoreway, Edgewater Park, Clifton Boulevard, Rocky River and maybe Westlake or Bay Village could all be connected. Clifton Boulevard seems like the perfect place for a portion of this transit line to run. It is certainly wide enough to put in boarding medians, and Lakewood is so densely populated (especially on the shore in the towers). In my criticisms about putting the transit line along Detroit in Lakewood, it is only that I see where Clifton would make more sense. It is within closer proxmity to a lot of people, Clifton has the potential to become even higher density with new housing, and you could easing create a specifically Lakewood circulater bus that could could connect Clifton with Detroit Avenue.

 

Intuitively I believe this line would be one of the most used out of all the RTA lines, and I think it would be very important to plan a transit line here as soon as possible. We have all kinds of new interest in Ohio City and Detroit-Shoreway where all kinds of new housing and development is occurring. You have the reconfiguration of the Shoreway coming up. Lakewood remains in my opinion a very attractive place to live, and Rocky River remains extremely attractive and is a very good example a mixed-use community that seems to be improving and exhibiting increasingly higher density housing in the Old Detroit area. The opportunity and importance for a west shore line should be an extremely high priority right now.

 

Again, I am strongly relying on my instincts and feelings based on my knowledge of the west side, but I think that the people who live on the West Shore and along I-90 generally have a more favorable opinion of downtown Cleveland, and see things only getting better. People here would embrace the line and use it. The only issue for a lot of people who live in areas like Lakewood (maybe not so much), Rocky River, Bay Village, and Westlake is that they consider (perhaps mistakenly) that access to downtown isn't convenient enough. I think they would embrace a transit line and it would encourage them to enjoy Detroit-Shoreway, Edgewater Park, Ohio City, and downtown on a more regular basis.

 

As someone who has lived in Avon Lake their entire life- a city on the Lake practically in the middle of Cleveland and Lorain- I will say that a transit line right now along the west shore that extends all the way out to Lorain is probably unnecessary. I know that no one east of Avon Lake would want to travel west of it, and people west of Avon Lake have no desire to go east of it. I have been able to gauge this interest my entire life. For one thing, the western Cuyahoga communities support jobs and retail that is way out of Lorain County's market. Another thing is, people in Lorain-Elyria actually consider the city of Cleveland and even downtown a dangerous place where they don't really want to go. This perception is completely ridiculous, especially because Lorain-Elyria probably has more crime and issues than Cleveland, but this is what they believe. People in the western Cuyahoga communities would probably appreciate better linkage with Cleveland, but would probably be more hostile towards attempts to link their communities with Lorain-Elyria.

 

There is just this cultural divide between the two metro areas that wouldn't lend itself well to a feasible line. I don't think studies are capable of understanding this.

Isn't ironic then that Lorain County interests (commissioners, Lorain Port Authority, city officials in Lorain and Elyria) are the ones driving it, while mayors in Avon, Bay Village, Rocky River and Lakewood are the ones expressing skeptcism and are doing nothing to push it?

 

How many cars, trainsets would be needed to start up this Lorain (or Vermillion)-to-Red Line commuter line?  Should their be a stop at W. 117 as well as Downtown Lakewood near Warren?  What's the probable start up timetable for this service?

 

We're probably looking at 3-car trains (at most four) with two to three trainsets in the starter service. I wouldn't do a West 117th Street station in the starter service, if only because it's just under a mile to the West Boulevard station where a transfer would have to be made. If service were operated through to downtown Cleveland without the transfer, then I would stop there. I would also want to add a stop at St. Ed's at Nicholson (though perhaps not in the starter service), since many of their students comes from the western 'burbs. But the initial schedule may not allow it (even though my initial proposed schedule would--the reality may be quite different).

 

As for the start-up timetable for this, we have a hard enough predicting the weather more than a couple days out, let alone predicting the complicated politics associated with this service. But I think this service can happen if these things are communicated to the public and elected officials:

 

1. a basic demonstration service can be easily withdrawn at the end of the demonstration. It does not commit the region to a permanent service.

 

2. a permanent service would increase the value of properties near the tracks because:

  A. quiet zones would be added, eliminating locomotive horns in a safe manner;

  B. freight trains, which provide little value to the corridor east of Avon Lake (and especially east of Westlake), would be rerouted as much as possible;

  C. adding regional passenger trains would allow the rail line to provide significant access for and value to housing and business districts along the corridor;

  D. enhancements to the corridor, such as bike paths (separated by decorative fence from the track) and community-maintained gardens along the track would rectify the awful appearance of what has long been a poorly maintained rail corridor. This corridor can and should be an asset for communities, not remain an eyesore. Make it a greenway that the area can be proud of.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

My bad, KJP, for my Qs were answered in your link (which, b/c of computer issues w/ certain pdf files at home, I can only read pg 1 of your presentation).  As for the presentation itself: job well done.  It's very well laid out and logical.  With Vulpster03's comments duly noted, I can't see why anyone would logically be against this.  It's cheap.  It's fast. It can be put up and taken down easily; quickly.  And it's far-reaching econ impact is great. 

 

Heck, if I had half a mind, I personally would buy a bunch of those Amtrak ex-P.O. locos, hold then sell them off at a cool profit. 

 

A couple more Qs: would it be feasible to extend seasonal service over this line non-stop from Vermilion to Cedar Point?  And what about insurance issues?  How did you arrive at your rather attracitve speed guestimates (esp including the lower speeds needed thru Lakewood due to the many grade Xings?  -- note: I was only able to scan your link at work, so if you've answered these Qs in your link, forgive me.

Thanks clvlndr. You could get the Metra cars dirt cheap as long as you had a few thousand dollars to ship them to you, and you had a place to keep them. I doubt the neighbors would appreciate seeing them in your driveway, backyard and double-parked on the street! The Amtrak locomotives are a bit more expensive, and I think the profit margin would be pretty thin there. Still a bargain, though.

 

Track speed through Lakewood is 35 mph with a municipal speed restriction for all trains. There's no braking-related allowance that would permit an increase for passenger service (for example: where a coal train speed limit is 40 mph, a general freight gets a 50 mph limit, a container/intermodal train is allowed 60 mph, and a passenger train is allowed 70-79 mph -- all due to weight/braking considerations). Still, given the municipal restriction, I assumed a 20-30 mph average speed through Lakewood with only one station stop in the city.

 

Seasonal service to Sandusky is very possible, and a later iteration of my "dream schedule" has a service through to/from Sandusky. However (don't you hate howevers?), it would require the construction of a track connection at Vermilion costing about $5 million to $6 million, and the construction of a third main track from there to Sandusky, costing probably $1 million per mile (20 miles). There was a third main track here (and a fourth in places), and will be needed again to accommodate more passenger service over this segment (in addition to the late-night Amtraks) due to the frequent freight traffic.

 

So, you're probably looking at $26 million+ for the trackwork, and I would assume $35 million for contingencies. That would include moving grade crossing flashers/equipment on the north side of the rail line. You might also have to move fiber optic interducts, upgrade some bridge decks and do some embankment work. Add a couple of stations (at Huron and upgrade/relocate Sandusky's station) and now we're pushing $40 million. Not saying it couldn't/shouldn't be done, but it will carry a meaningful price tag.

vulpster i dk where you get those opinions but they are not born out in fact there are plenty of commuters. in fact i forgot i was one myself for a time. worse, i dk how you can say what lorain/elyria residents feel when you dont even live there either but whatev. imo the big picture is the whole of lorain county has already become much much more suburban as the rust belt industry fades away. besides the study results and even a trial run, it is lorain that actually built a brand new commuter rail station and pushed for commuter rail so i hardly think at least there that no one there wants to go to cleveland. esp as the always broke city has put money into getting ready for commuter rail already:

 

Silly me. I totally forgot to mention that Lorain County officials secured $8 million in local, state and federal funding to build the Black River Transportation Center. It is no accident that the proposed tracks on this map fit so nicely with the alignment of the transportation center....

 

 

As long as I'm posting images, I might as well post a few others in my report (accessed by the link in an earlier message of mine).

 

A before and after of Rocky River -- BEFORE/AFTER the introduction of regional passenger rail, a de-emphasis of the car-dominated infrastructural barriers, and a downtown redevelopment initiative focused on transit and pedestrianism....

 

 

 

The above graphic still needs some tidying up, like the new roadway under the tracks won't work gradient-wise. It would have to cross the tracks at-grade. Below, the West Boulevard graphic also needs some adjustments. A curved platform probably won't work with today's revised ADA standards. And, a dual-mode diesel/electric light rail vehicle would be operate from Lorain County into Tower City via RTA's Red Line (if a track connection were built near West 85th Street -- see bottom two images).

 

 

 

 

 

NOTE TO MEDIA AND OTHERS:  DO NOT CITE ME PERSONALLY AS THE SOURCE OF THESE IMAGES OR OTHERWISE USE MY NAME IN ARTICLES. HOWEVER, YOU MAY USE A CREDIT ALONG THE LINES OF "Image courtesy of NEOtrans." NOTE THAT NEOtrans IS THE CONSULTING ARM OF THE NONPROFIT 'ALL ABOARD OHIO'. CONTACT ME IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.

why thanks kjp. the green looped area on the lorain shot is a park for the international festival so thats not going anywhere. since that shot they have built a walkway along the riverfront with benches and stuff its very nice, great views. also, urban style housing and rehabbing is practically booming around lower broadway around there and is very impressive (for a town like lorain). they have lofts, main st usa style apts, the new harborwalk homes, etc. so they are ready fo rail no question.

 

here's some up close and personal shots from my thread last august '05:

 

 

the very future commuter rail tracks themselves -- sigh...how forlorn and pathetic -- but otoh wow you can see the foresight and potential we have going on here!

 

so of what use is this structure being put to today? a freakin meeting room

hopefully someday soon it will be a waiting room instead!

 

 

All right, so what next?

 

We've got a semi-abandoned rail line/right of way through a corridor that has a region (East Lakewood) that is not only the most densely populated highly, but one of the few in this region that is growing (into Lorain County).  We've got valid proposal how to use it.  We have cheap commuter available (both engines and bi-level commuter cars).  We even have a new, spacious, completed terminal in Lorain.  This is tantamount a lob pitch right over the plate.  If we, as a metro area, don't have we can't put good wood on the ball and get this thing done, then we might as well forget ANY meaningful transit project in the region (and, no, unlike others on this board, I do not consider BRT as meaningful).

 

Do we have balls to get this done, or are we, once again, going to be defeated by naysayers like Vulpster03, or negative interest like RTA or Dennis Kucinich?  It's our move.

 

What next?  Should KJP publish an article in the West Side Sun?  We simply can't sit here and let this one go by the boards.  It's fascinating, and disgusting, that in both the latest commuter rail opportunities, the impetus has come from beyond Cuyahoga Count (as in RTA) but in Akron and Lorain, respectively... That sure doesn't speak well about this so-called "big city" does it?

 

^ why can't one of the foundations step up with a matching grant and let's get this done. 

-As for my negativity regarding the Cleveland to Lorain/Elyria line; Lorain County commuters do not deserve the convenience of rail to commute to their jobs downtown. There are plenty of older homes for sale with better school systems in Cuyahoga County. They need to be encouraged to live there as gas prices rise. The county is loosing people to these outlaying communties. In Avon Lake I have seen the population more than double, become increasingly upscale, and property values skyrocket. In the meantime I have seen population losses and school system issues for Lakewood and Fairview Park!

 

-I went to St.Eds along that railroad in Lakewood, and I can tell you that I got stuck at the tracks many times and was late to class. It is used by freight. It probably can support passanger commuter rail, but to say that is unused isn't quite true.

 

-I see greater potential in creating a BRT Gold Line along the West Shore. Maybe the owner of all those trollies that wants to build a museum and get them running in Cleveland could be worked with to make the Gold Line a trolley line. We have this guy who wants to do it, and the Cuyahoga County engeniers who want to use the lower deck of the bridge, and the city that wants development in Detroit-Shoreway and along the redesigned West Shoreway. From downtown on the lower unused deck of the Detroit-Superior Bridge to some outlet on the redesigned West Shoreway boulevard and down Clifton is a much better idea. It could use the Trolley as part of the attraction for new development. This could certainly go into Rocky River over the Clifton-Lake bridge into a redesigned road alignment and mixed-use development as KJP showed and create something like a Shaker Square for the West Side. You could see how this would nullify the need for a regional rail line to make all those stops in Cleveland, Lakewood, and Rocky River. I'm not saying we should discontinue discussing the potential for Cleveland-Lorain line, but let's invest in Cuyahoga County first where it needs it, and not Avon or Avon Lake (the only two cities showing real growth in Lorain County and perhaps directly related to population losses of Cuyahoga).

The next step is to make sure Congressman Sherrod Brown (or even Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur whose district now reaches into Lorain County) is fully supportive of this service and is willing to secure a federal earmark to accomplish two things:

 

1. Advance prior planning to the environmental impact stage

2. Develop a demonstration service for a specific period of time

 

The reason why I have #1 up there is because the corridor isn't eligible for federal funding until planning has reached a certain point (ie: completion of the environmental impact stage). However, federal funds can be secured for a demonstration service as long as planning is proceeding.

 

The environmental impact study would likely cost about $2.5 million, and efforts are underway to get local congressional support for this. However, earmarks may be tougher to get this year than in prior years since the chair of the relevant House committee (Knollenberg of Michigan and who's a major-league twit) wants to put a lid on earmarks. The Greenway idea is very new and hasn't made the rounds yet. But it's getting there. Yet I can't very easily do it as a reporter for Sun -- I can't write an article about myself. Not koshier. This is the conundrum I get myself into from time to time....

-I went to St.Eds.

 

With that admission, you just lost all your credibility!  ;)

it seems that most of the original rail innovation in cleveland was privately driven, and is now controlled by the merged RTA function.  RTA is an operator, not an innovator.  Let them concentrate on providing reliable and affordable bus services. 

 

maybe it is time to split rail off from RTA and have an authority charged more with economic development and all things rail. 

^that sounds a bit like KJP's earlier proposal. 

Get ready for a big surprise....

 

At this page ( http://www.noaca.org/fy07tlciproj.pdf ), NOACA lists recipients of this year's Transportation for Livable Communities Intiative (TLCI) grants. Among the 16 requests that received grants, the following was mentioned almost innocuously...

 

Sponsor: Cleveland

Co-sponsor: Old Brooklyn Neighborhood Services

Project Title: Transportation Study of Pearl Road/West 25th Street

Project Overview: Planning study to examine potential alternative modes of mass transportation along Pearl Road and West 25th Street

Funding Amount Not to Exceed: $75,000.00 (ie: NOACA's share of planning funds)

 

I heard rumblings about this grant request, but didn't pay much attention to it. I asked the two Cleveland city councilmen from that area -- Brian Cummins and Kevin Kelley -- about it and they said I would probably find it very interesting. So, earlier today, I requested and received from NOACA a copy of the grant request that was approved by NOACA.

 

Needless to say, I was shocked.

 

The grant request is for a preliminary analysis of building a light-rail line or bus rapid transit service in the aforementioned corridor. First phase of this analysis (which was funded by NOACA with about $18,000 coming from Cleveland and Old Brooklyn Neighborhood Services) is for the segment roughly between the Ohio City Rapid transit station and Brookpark Road at the Cleveland-Parma boundary. Phase Two could include continuing the analysis farther south along Pearl and Ridge roads to Parmatown Mall.

 

I will have more about this in an article in Thursday's Brooklyn Sun Journal and the West Side Sun News. I will post the article Wednesday evening, which is when the first Brooklyn Sun Journals are delivered to subscribers of that paper. But I will need to write a more detailed article in the near future since I didn't have much time to delve more into this.

 

In the meantime, for those unfamiliar with this corridor, I prepared these graphics earlier this evening.

 

 

 

 

 

Stay tuned for the article and for some more information I would like to share with you.....

nice, we really need this on the westside. my vote go's to light rail please!

What is the dotted yellow?  A loop?