Did anyone see the PBS program last night called "10 towns that changed America"? It had a segment on Portland OR's Pearl District at the end which touches on streetcars and the spinoff developments which happened because of the streetcar.

 

I am not saying the same benefits will come to CIN, or CLE if the CLE ever builds a streetcar line (or extends the WFL), but the Portland piece sure does make a case for streetcar lines, and TOD.

 

Here is a link: http://www.oregonlive.com/tv/2016/04/7_takeaways_about_the_pearl_di.html

 

Missed this but I want to see it.  Portland is the gold star transit system in the U.S.  However, even with its reputation, Portland has seen budget issues and stagnant to declining ridership numbers.  I suspect this has to do with fare increases and a bad economy.  The Streetcar Line recently closed 5 stations due to the line running slow.  Even if the ridership numbers do increase, Portland's transit share of commuters has been stagnant to decline.  Must not be keeping up with the area's growing population; more people getting in cars than on the train.

 

The Pearl District is nice, but an expensive place to live.  Something both CIN and CLE need; ORT in CIN with its streetcar and Detroit-Shoreway in CLE with a light-rail extension.

 

I'm less familiar with Portland's system than most of the larger ones (NYC, Washington, Chicago, LA).  I do know it is excellent relative to the city's size, but not quite sure why it would be considered the "gold star" system as opposed to any of the others.  Am I missing something?  Thanks!

Besides a quick jump to the Flats, less of a quick jump to the airport, why would these residents use the WFL in its current configuration in numbers sufficient to support the WFL?

 

What else is a short walk from a Rapid/BRT station and other connecting high-frequency transit lines?

 

Don't understand this question?

 

You had listed a few, limited destinations that you can reach via the Rapid. I'm encouraging you to look deeper to identify additional destinations that surround stations on high-frequency public transportation routes that could be reached if you lived in housing built along the Waterfront Line and didn't own a car or used one very sparingly (like I do).

 

BTW, while cleaning out an old filing cabinet, I found lots of old documents and graphics from before, during after the Waterfront Line was constructed, and when a Waterfront Line Extension around downtown was being planned (late 1990s). I'll be scanning and posting those documents in the coming days.

^i.e. Last summer on a Friday evening, I hopped the a Blue Line train from Shaker Sq, and rode through the WFL to North Coast (E. 9th) to meet a female friend at the Winking Lizard in the Galleria -- just 2 blocks up E. 9th on the train-- very quick and convenient.  After a bite at the W. Liz, together we both the WFL back to FEB for drinks at the, then, spanking new Alley Cat -- a glorious evening on the outside upper deck watching the boats go up & down the Cuyahoga -- the weather was warm, the place was packed and everybody was loving it. (the Alley Cat should be MUST SEE territory for anyone trying to impress visitors about the CLE)...  After the Alley Cat, we Uber-ed it back to her car at a lot on St. Clair and she drove us home.  (at the time, IIRC, I think RTA had not extended WFL hours to beyond 10:30p...)

 

It took a little arm-twisting to get my friend to WFL-it over to FEB because she'd never ridden the WFL before despite living in Orange and working downtown near the Galleria.  But she marveled at how easy it was and, since then, she's told me she's used the WFL a couple times, though not regularly for commuting, but vowed she'd try it someday. 

 

The moral of the story is that there are a lot of uses for the WFL and the Rapid, in general, that people don't even think of.  But as in my friend's case, if you open your mind to the possibilities and not default to the idea that the Rapid is only good for limited purposes (like work in Tower City, the airport or a Browns or Cavs game), then you will continue to blow it off as not useful... And this goes for RTA brass and Cleveland leadership as well as the riding public.

^i.e. Last summer on a Friday evening, I hopped the a Blue Line train from Shaker Sq, and rode through the WFL to North Coast (E. 9th) to meet a female friend at the Winking Lizard in the Galleria -- just 2 blocks up E. 9th on the train-- very quick and convenient.  After a bite at the W. Liz, together we both the WFL back to FEB for drinks at the, then, spanking new Alley Cat -- a glorious evening on the outside upper deck watching the boats go up & down the Cuyahoga -- the weather was warm, the place was packed and everybody was loving it. (the Alley Cat should be MUST SEE territory for anyone trying to impress visitors about the CLE)...  After the Alley Cat, we Uber-ed it back to her car at a lot on St. Clair and she drove us home.  (at the time, IIRC, I think RTA had not extended WFL hours to beyond 10:30p...)

 

It took a little arm-twisting to get my friend to WFL-it over to FEB because she'd never ridden the WFL before despite living in Orange and working downtown near the Galleria.  But she marveled at how easy it was and, since then, she's told me she's used the WFL a couple times, though not regularly for commuting, but vowed she'd try it someday. 

 

The moral of the story is that there are a lot of uses for the WFL and the Rapid, in general, that people don't even think of.  But as in my friend's case, if you open your mind to the possibilities and not default to the idea that the Rapid is only good for limited purposes (like work in Tower City, the airport or a Browns or Cavs game), then you will continue to blow it off as not useful... And this goes for RTA brass and Cleveland leadership as well as the riding public.

 

Agree that if you live on or near the Green/Blue lines and your destination is FEB, lakefront, or areas south-adjacent thereto, the WFL is great.  Cleveland residents were once transit-progressive but population decline and sprawl have made them transit-regressive.  Arm-twisting to get someone to use transit is not a good sign; what were her expectations about the WFL before she used it?

 

How many people were on the WFL when you used it?

 

What if you had met in Playhouse Square; how would you get to FEB? Or someone visiting CLE and staying at the Schofield or The 9?

 

Trust me, I want to see lots of riders on all the trains.

 

I've already called out the RTA brass and Cleveland leadership about using RTA (maybe if Jackson could be seen on the Red Line to the airport once in a while and Dr. Valarie McCall just noticing the trash issue along the same route).  If these folks don't use public transit, why would anyone else.

 

Cleveland leadership needs to get on-board and utilize the RTA as a means of economic development.

 

How many people were on the WFL when you used it?

 

1 other woman.  From her badge, she appeared to be a Rock Hall employee.

 

What if you had met in Playhouse Square; how would you get to FEB? Or someone visiting CLE and staying at the Schofield or The 9?

 

This isn't relevant on 2 counts,  First, my friend and I didn't meet at in PHS, we met at the Galleria.  If we had met in PHS, I/we would have likely used the HL or the Trolley into Public Sq and then, maybe walked down to FEB, although the WFL from TC could have been a possibility.  Secondly, if someone were visiting and staying at the Schofield or The 9 and wanted to meet nearby for food/drinks, then the same would have been true as what I just mentioned.  However, if and I was coming from in from Shaker or somewhere East along the Blue or Green Lines to meeting them, the scenario would have been similar to what actually happened with my friend,  as those 'visitors' would have likely have traveled the short distance -- probably on foot -- up E. 9th for our meeting for food/drinks at the Winking Lizard, then WFL to FEB/Alley Cat, etc...

 

The point being is that the WFL should be viewed in the arsenal of RTA routes that allows flexibility and the ease of travel.  People seem to think it's acceptable to use the Trolleys to move about downtown because they are unique/cool looking and, most importantly, FREE... But why would one rule out the possibility of the using the WFL from the Erieview/North Coast area to the Flats?... It's literally a mile away and down a steep hill (and up that hill if you're going the other direction), so the WFL would seem the way to go; it's just 2 blocks from anywhere in the Erieview/North Coast area...

 

By the way, the arm-twisting of my friend ended when I noted to her the thought of her likely having to go fetch her car only to have to pay another $10 for parking at FEB -- the place was packed that night, and even just trying to find an empty space, even in the pay lots, would have been a major pain in the a$$.  Of course, gentleman that I am, I would have footed the 2nd parking fee, but even she asked: why even do this?  Let's ride!

 

Trust me, I want to see lots of riders on all the trains.

 

I've already called out the RTA brass and Cleveland leadership about using RTA (maybe if Jackson could be seen on the Red Line to the airport once in a while and Dr. Valarie McCall just noticing the trash issue along the same route).  If these folks don't use public transit, why would anyone else.

 

Cleveland leadership needs to get on-board and utilize the RTA as a means of economic development.

 

I agree completely.  The fact that Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel and (then) Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis rides/rode their rapid transit systems to work are/were huge examples for their constituents to ride (of course, in both Chicago and Boston, quite obviously such high profile examples are not needed to motivate their locals to ride)... Having Mayor Jackson and Valarie McCall (a local and national transit official, no less) to ride RTA would set major examples to our skeptical riding populace here...

 

Several times I've lamented the fact that ex-Mayor Campbell didn't ride the rails, when with the Blue Line stop being a mere block from her house near Shaker Sq, she could have ridden the friggin' thing to the back door of City Hall and her office... Just another blown opportunity in the tortured annals of Cleveland rail transit. 

^^Maybe Zach Reed and company can pass a law taking Mayor Jackson's car service away from him?

 

How many people were on the WFL when you used it?

 

1 other woman.  From her badge, she appeared to be a Rock Hall employee.

 

What if you had met in Playhouse Square; how would you get to FEB? Or someone visiting CLE and staying at the Schofield or The 9?

 

This isn't relevant on 2 counts,  First, my friend and I didn't meet at in PHS, we met at the Galleria.  If we had met in PHS, I/we would have likely used the HL or the Trolley into Public Sq and then, maybe walked down to FEB, although the WFL from TC could have been a possibility.  Secondly, if someone were visiting and staying at the Schofield or The 9 and wanted to meet nearby for food/drinks, then the same would have been true as what I just mentioned.  However, if and I was coming from in from Shaker or somewhere East along the Blue or Green Lines to meeting them, the scenario would have been similar to what actually happened with my friend,  as those 'visitors' would have likely have traveled the short distance -- probably on foot -- up E. 9th for our meeting for food/drinks at the Winking Lizard, then WFL to FEB/Alley Cat, etc...

 

The point being is that the WFL should be viewed in the arsenal of RTA routes that allows flexibility and the ease of travel.  People seem to think it's acceptable to use the Trolleys to move about downtown because they are unique/cool looking and, most importantly, FREE... But why would one rule out the possibility of the using the WFL from the Erieview/North Coast area to the Flats?... It's literally a mile away and down a steep hill (and up that hill if you're going the other direction), so the WFL would seem the way to go; it's just 2 blocks from anywhere in the Erieview/North Coast area...

 

By the way, the arm-twisting of my friend ended when I noted to her the thought of her likely having to go fetch her car only to have to pay another $10 for parking at FEB -- the place was packed that night, and even just trying to find an empty space, even in the pay lots, would have been a major pain in the a$$.  Of course, gentleman that I am, I would have footed the 2nd parking fee, but even she asked: why even do this?  Let's ride!

 

Trust me, I want to see lots of riders on all the trains.

 

I've already called out the RTA brass and Cleveland leadership about using RTA (maybe if Jackson could be seen on the Red Line to the airport once in a while and Dr. Valarie McCall just noticing the trash issue along the same route).  If these folks don't use public transit, why would anyone else.

 

Cleveland leadership needs to get on-board and utilize the RTA as a means of economic development.

 

I agree completely.  The fact that Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel and (then) Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis rides/rode their rapid transit systems to work are/were huge examples for their constituents to ride (of course, in both Chicago and Boston, quite obviously such high profile examples are not needed to motivate their locals to ride)... Having Mayor Jackson and Valarie McCall (a local and national transit official, no less) to ride RTA would set major examples to our skeptical riding populace here...

 

Several times I've lamented the fact that ex-Mayor Campbell didn't ride the rails, when with the Blue Line stop being a mere block from her house near Shaker Sq, she could have ridden the friggin' thing to the back door of City Hall and her office... Just another blown opportunity in the tortured annals of Cleveland rail transit.

 

Meeting at PHS was a hypothetical situation (please note the term ''if'') and guests at the Schofield etc. were not visiting you; just random CLE visitors wanting to get to FEB.  Hotel will either arrange car service or guests will use Uber.  People visiting NorthCoast or Erieview should use the WFL, it's accessible from those locations.  But how many people do?  Not many at all as we see.  The lakefront and Flats need to attract lots of people to get the WFL numbers up as long as the WFL is confined to its current route.  WFL back to its bar-hopping crowd again at least.

 

Also, the cost of 2 roundtrip tickets on the WFL to go to go from E. 9th to FEB is the same as the $10.00 FEB parking but without the wait for 2 WFL trains without being concerned about the WFL ending its service at a particular time.

 

Maybe Dr. McCall at City Hall could promote RTA with downtown-UC hotel guests.  A recent hotel review stated that guests were having dinner in Little Italy with the car service arranged by the hotel.  No mention of the HL or Red Line options. 

^No, you mean $2.25 -- for her WFL fare, alone (we figured in cabbing or Uber-ing back to her car given the late hour and the fact her car was in an unattended garage).  My $5.00 was a sunk cost because I was coming in by Rapid anyway.  Had she insisted on driving to the Flats, I would have both gladly eaten $2.75 that I would have booted for the only 1-ride rail trip into down, I would have also paid whatever parking fee we would've encountered in the Flats-- I tend not to fret over such minor things when I'm having fun with great company and loving the experience and the crowds at the revitalized FEB -- we also strolled the new boardwalk, as well.

 

Had I decided to drive into town and meet her, I would have encountered a bunch of added costs and aggravations: gas, paying to park, twice (once at Winking Lizard, once down in the flats), along with the hassle of driving, the wear & tear on my car -- lest you forget those dreaded Cleveland potholes, etc...

You just touched on an additional problem that I'm not sure all transit advocates fully understand.

 

The value of the time spent, not just riding, but also waiting, transferring, walking to/from one's destination.

 

For anyone gainfully employed, the value of that time is fairly substantial.

 

Successful transit systems minimize this time by attempting to offer the most frequent, predictable, and reliable service possible, including efforts to minimize both bunching and unnecessary transfers (yes, I know they are competing goals and improving one often risks worsening the other).

 

Our challenge, should we choose to accept, is to figure out a way to do that, despite the unpleasant reality that funding increases probably will not happen anytime soon.  We need to employ every possible means at our disposal, including technology, creativity, cooperation (with cities, for light timing/pre-emption, for example), compromise, and long-term thinking and planning.

 

If we do not accept that challenge, then, eventually, transit becomes largely irrelevant to anyone with a choice.

 

I don't pretend that it will be easy, simple, or painless.  But I do believe we need to do our darned best, and hope and pray that our darned best is good enough.  If not, then driving continues to be, for those who do have that choice, not only faster, but, factoring in the value of time, substantially cheaper in most cases as well.

You just touched on an additional problem that I'm not sure all transit advocates fully understand.

 

The value of the time spent, not just riding, but also waiting, transferring, walking to/from one's destination.

 

Not true at all, especially in this case. 

 

First.  Walking distance was not an issue.  My friend's parking garage was further from the Winking Lizard than the WFL station at E. 9th.  Second, the waiting time for the WFL was nil because of the RTA "Next Train" feature I used on my smartphone (the same, btw, could have been accomplished with the  paper Blue/Green Line schedule).  We arrived at E. 9th 2 mins before the train arrived.  Three, what anti-rail hitmen fail to factor in is all the time and aggravation saved by riding the train, in this case the WFL, as opposed to sitting in traffic (and burning extra stop 'n go gas) and searching for a parking space which, even late last summer when, in it's fledgling rebirth, the FEB would have posed for us on this particular warm, Friday evening -- a scenario that is likely to be repeated, ad infinitum, into the future given the likely growth of both the size and likely popularity of FEB.

You just touched on an additional problem that I'm not sure all transit advocates fully understand.

 

The value of the time spent, not just riding, but also waiting, transferring, walking to/from one's destination.

 

Not true at all, especially in this case. 

 

First.  Walking distance was not an issue.  My friend's parking garage was further from the Winking Lizard than the WFL station at E. 9th.  Second, the waiting time for the WFL was nil because of the RTA "Next Train" feature I used on my smartphone (the same, btw, could have been accomplished with the  paper Blue/Green Line schedule).  We arrived at E. 9th 2 mins before the train arrived.  Three, what anti-rail hitmen fail to factor in is all the time and aggravation saved by riding the train, in this case the WFL, as opposed to sitting in traffic (and burning extra stop 'n go gas) and searching for a parking space which, even late last summer when, in it's fledgling rebirth, the FEB would have posed for us on this particular warm, Friday evening -- a scenario that is likely to be repeated, ad infinitum, into the future given the likely growth of both the size and likely popularity of FEB.

 

Your experiences help to make my point, which is not that transit is always the worst choice in terms of the value of time, but that people with a choice tend to choose it, or not, depending in large part on whether it is a good use of their time.  In your case, it was.  In the general case, it often is not.  Our challenge is that if we want transit to succeed, to grow, to become an ordinary part of urban life, we need to change that.

 

BTW, the Chicago CTA is experimenting with some new technologies and protocols designed to reduce bunching of buses, which, if successful and if adaptable to our system, could *drastically* improve the reliability of RTA's services, especially on busy and important lines like the 26, 22, 14, 10, 1, and HealthLine.  The short story is that we now have technology, such as inexpensive cellular communications, that we didn't until around a decade ago, and this technology can be put to use so as to greatly reduce the problem.  This is just one example of the kind of progress I believe we need to aggressively pursue, so that the positive and cost-effective experience you described can be available to more and more people, for more and more types of trips, not just downtown.

^No, you mean $2.25 -- for her WFL fare, alone (we figured in cabbing or Uber-ing back to her car given the late hour and the fact her car was in an unattended garage).  My $5.00 was a sunk cost because I was coming in by Rapid anyway.  Had she insisted on driving to the Flats, I would have both gladly eaten $2.75 that I would have booted for the only 1-ride rail trip into down, I would have also paid whatever parking fee we would've encountered in the Flats-- I tend not to fret over such minor things when I'm having fun with great company and loving the experience and the crowds at the revitalized FEB -- we also strolled the new boardwalk, as well.

 

Had I decided to drive into town and meet her, I would have encountered a bunch of added costs and aggravations: gas, paying to park, twice (once at Winking Lizard, once down in the flats), along with the hassle of driving, the wear & tear on my car -- lest you forget those dreaded Cleveland potholes, etc...

 

I get that you're a transit advocate and user.  The $10.00 roundtrip relates to other couples or groups opting to use the WFL vs. simply driving to, say FEB. Remove yourself from the equation and think what out of town visitors or other locals would do, not you.  You're the exception, not the norm.

 

Would a group of 4 pay $20.00 for a roundtrip on the WFL from E 9th to FEB?

 

I have friends from DC that love visiting CLE.  One year they used the Red Line from the airport and transferred to the HealthLine for a trip up Euclid to CSU.  Then we took the WFL (there were 4 in our group and we were the only WFL passengers) from the Rock Hall, to TC, out to the airport. Total trip $20.00.  Two train waits.

 

That was the last time they used RTA, and not because of the cost.

 

Every trip since then: car rental.  Weekend car rentals are inexpensive.

 

When there are options, most people will not opt for public transit.

That was the last time they used RTA, and not because of the cost.

 

Out of curiosity, if it wasn't cost what was the reason they wouldn't use it again?

It takes 20 minutes to walk downtown from end to end.  I cannot fathom using a train for that.  A downtown rail loop will be about as useful here as it was in Detroit.  Exorbitant cost per mile, even worse cost per person who benefits.

It takes 20 minutes to walk downtown from end to end.  I cannot fathom using a train for that.  A downtown rail loop will be about as useful here as it was in Detroit.  Exorbitant cost per mile, even worse cost per person who benefits.

 

 

Really?  Even for my friend, a woman walking in high heels after a long day at work walking down over and down the steep hill into the Flats?  (my guest-imate was correct: it's exactly 1 mile from the front door of the Winking Lizard to the front door of the Alley Cat in the Flats.).. Not everybody is Superman or woman, y'know.

I live in Playhouse Square and am no slouch when walking, but it's still 25mins to FEB. I don't mind it most of the time, but in the cold and rain I'd take a tram/ train/ streetcar every time.

^Do you ever take an RTA trolley? That was sort of the missing piece from clvlndr's anecdote. He could have taken a trolley from the front of the Galleria to West 9th and Main (just up the hill from FEB) for free, with less wait time, on average.

I do use the C-Line and I think it's a great service, but if I've just missed one and it's a 10min wait then the benefit is marginal. Also, in poor weather the lack of shelters at the stops is a disincentive in my book. Overall, even though I know it's there and it's free too, I struggle to remember that is there and available. I think it just blends into the background downtown. The vast majority of people I know who live downtown are the same. When reminded, they'll consider using it, but it's just never top of mind. There's something to be said for a system that has some physical assets associated to it, like stops with shelters or dedicated stations. Just feels more permanent and viable.

I do use the C-Line and I think it's a great service, but if I've just missed one and it's a 10min wait then the benefit is marginal. Also, in poor weather the lack of shelters at the stops is a disincentive in my book. Overall, even though I know it's there and it's free too, I struggle to remember that is there and available. I think it just blends into the background downtown. The vast majority of people I know who live downtown are the same. When reminded, they'll consider using it, but it's just never top of mind. There's something to be said for a system that has some physical assets associated to it, like stops with shelters or dedicated stations. Just feels more permanent and viable.

 

Yep.  The Trolley is there but I never remember to use it or where the different lines run.  This needs to be promoted and marked more.

It takes 20 minutes to walk downtown from end to end.  I cannot fathom using a train for that.  A downtown rail loop will be about as useful here as it was in Detroit.  Exorbitant cost per mile, even worse cost per person who benefits.

 

That's the issue the CIN Streetcar is going to be facing.  CIN's downtown is even more compact than CLE's.  A minimal route restricted a portion of downtown with no means of importing people to its core from outlying areas/neighborhoods.

 

CLE's rail lines already extend east-west.  This is the reason I think the WFL should loop through the CBD and any west extensions of the light-rail would bring people in across the city to their desired destination.  Downtowners have the option of walking and on occasion jumping a train, if needed.

It takes 20 minutes to walk downtown from end to end.  I cannot fathom using a train for that.  A downtown rail loop will be about as useful here as it was in Detroit.  Exorbitant cost per mile, even worse cost per person who benefits.

 

Even if that is so, it often takes a lot longer than 20 minutes to *drive* that distance.  A train that could reliably make the trip in less time than that would save time over driving, which is exactly what needs to happen in order to win over busy people whose time is very valuable.  Many people in Chicago take the train because, when they drive, they see it zipping past them in the median of the Dan Ryan the Ike or any number of other expressways, whilst they are stuck in heavy traffic.  The train saves them time.  It is much harder of course for a bus to do that, or, for that matter, a train that runs where no one wants to live or to work.  But not necessarily impossible.  So, going back yet again to the idea that transit must save people money and/or time in order for them to willingly choose it, our challenge is to find a way to make this happen for as many potential riders as we possibly can. 

That's why we should run trains to where people already live and work.  There are large job centers, 10-20 miles out, in every direction from downtown.  Step One should be servicing those.  FWIW, most of these places already have rail lines nearby.

It takes 20 minutes to walk downtown from end to end.  I cannot fathom using a train for that.  A downtown rail loop will be about as useful here as it was in Detroit.  Exorbitant cost per mile, even worse cost per person who benefits.

 

Detroit's People Mover, like CIN's Streetcar, are confined to downtown areas only.  This is the problem with CIN's Streetcar; who will use this to get around CIN's small, compact downtown?  This line has not been extended to create an ebb-flow of people in and out of the CBD and is being built, like Detroit's People Mover, from scratch.  Think about a Reds, Bengals or other downtown event: you're supposed to drive downtown, pay to park away from your destination, pay and wait for the streetcar, ride to your event, and do the reverse trip later.  During really large events like Oktoberfest, the Streetcar will be closed.  Same thing with Detroit's People Mover.

 

CLE's issue is limited and awkward CBD access with rail lines extending east-west across the city.  Looping the WFL through the CBD could only help attract potential riders with more access points for short and distant destinations.  There should be a different fare structure for local downtown riders ie. going a couple-few stations.  CLE's growing tourist and convention visitors could really have quick and inexpensive access.  Downtowners may opt to walk and use it on occasion.  The light-rail should extend to the west side, preferably along Detroit Avenue, south to Lorain, back downtown.

 

I know BRT is popular and may be placed on W 25th Street, but CLE already has a rail system that could be extended a bit to reach more riders and offer more than 1 downtown station, unmarked and buried under Tower City.  It's not like we're building from scratch.

 

People would opt for a train, if available, rather than a bus or trackless trolley.

Did anyone see the PBS program last night called "10 towns that changed America"? It had a segment on Portland OR's Pearl District at the end which touches on streetcars and the spinoff developments which happened because of the streetcar.

 

I am not saying the same benefits will come to CIN, or CLE if the CLE ever builds a streetcar line (or extends the WFL), but the Portland piece sure does make a case for streetcar lines, and TOD.

 

Here is a link: http://www.oregonlive.com/tv/2016/04/7_takeaways_about_the_pearl_di.html

 

Missed this but I want to see it.  Portland is the gold star transit system in the U.S.  However, even with its reputation, Portland has seen budget issues and stagnant to declining ridership numbers.  I suspect this has to do with fare increases and a bad economy.  The Streetcar Line recently closed 5 stations due to the line running slow.  Even if the ridership numbers do increase, Portland's transit share of commuters has been stagnant to decline.  Must not be keeping up with the area's growing population; more people getting in cars than on the train.

 

The Pearl District is nice, but an expensive place to live.  Something both CIN and CLE need; ORT in CIN with its streetcar and Detroit-Shoreway in CLE with a light-rail extension.

 

I'm less familiar with Portland's system than most of the larger ones (NYC, Washington, Chicago, LA).  I do know it is excellent relative to the city's size, but not quite sure why it would be considered the "gold star" system as opposed to any of the others.  Am I missing something?  Thanks!

 

Not sure if it is fact a gold star system but Portland is said to be transit-progressive, like CLE used to be.  People there keep voting for light-rail, even if they don't use it.  The NW Pacific vibe. 

 

I visit the Portland area every summer and am looking forward to using the new Orange Line.  Last summer the rail-bridge was up but not yet running.  Looks very cool.

 

Maybe another reason Portland gets transit attention is its newer, progressive look as opposed to the cities you mention; each of which, except LA, are considered to be ''transit legacy'' cities.  CLE could have easily been in the transit legacy category had things gone the way the citizens wanted at the time.

Compared with the People Mover, Cincy's streetcar is practically linear.  It goes well beyond the CBD and will eventually extend up the hill to UC.  That's a lot more than a downtown loop.  I'd love to have that here. 

 

I don't see how looping the WFL around downtown would attract many additional riders, because it still wouldn't get them anywhere they couldn't walk to.  I mean, what sort of fare structure are we talking about, 25 cents per block?  Per tenth of a mile?  The cost/benefit of building that just isn't there, not when we have so many areas of town that desperately need something, anything.

Compared with the People Mover, Cincy's streetcar is practically linear.  It goes well beyond the CBD and will eventually extend up the hill to UC.  That's a lot more than a downtown loop.  I'd love to have that here. 

 

I don't see how looping the WFL around downtown would attract many additional riders, because it still wouldn't get them anywhere they couldn't walk to.  I mean, what sort of fare structure are we talking about, 25 cents per block?  Per tenth of a mile?  The cost/benefit of building that just isn't there, not when we have so many areas of town that desperately need something, anything.

 

Neither go far and are confined to small areas for a rail system.

 

I don't see how you wish you could have CIN's streetcar here yet not advocate a light-rail loop or extension given that our rail lines are now what you are promoting with CIN's UC extension.  How is extending CIN's streetcar cost/benefit worthy then?  CIN City Hall pushed this project while our City Hall officials go down there for photo opps with the streetcar trains.  Like our WFL, the City pushed for it which is why it ends in Muni Parking Lot perhaps.

 

Other cities have distance based fares.  Oh, that's right, this is Cleveland. 

 

 

As a former Chicago resident, and a current New Orleans resident, let me say I love the CTA rail lines, and I despise the NOLA streetcars.

 

The streetcars are primarily for tourists.  It's literally faster to walk to work (3.5 miles) than take the streetcar.  I wish it was a bus.  I would kill for BRT!

 

One man's opinion

 

 

That's why we should run trains to where people already live and work.  There are large job centers, 10-20 miles out, in every direction from downtown.  Step One should be servicing those.  FWIW, most of these places already have rail lines nearby.

 

I like the concept.  It might be a tough sell, but, IMO, that is far more for political reasons than on the merits.  On the merits, I truly believe it could work.

 

We're really talking about commuter rail, and with the possible exception of, say, Beachwood/Woodmere, Independence, Solon, Westlake, maybe Lakewood, we're also talking about beyond Cuyahoga County and thus not funded by the county sales tax.

 

Nonetheless, I think the popularity of the park & ride services attests to people's willlingness to use transit when it is genuinely convenient, and, in this particular case, even if it does turn out to be on average a little bit slower than driving.  Rail would be faster than driving, and we have lightly used and/or unused rail infrastructure all over the area.

 

That railbus concept they demoed in 1985 was very much along these lines.  It was a self-propelled vehicle using existing rail infrastructure, with stops in Euclid and Mentor.  (In real life, it could have been Windermere, Euclid, Willoughby, Mentor, and if demand warranted, extended to Painesville, Fairport, and beyond.)  I'm not sure why it was abandoned.

 

I realize Chicago is a far larger and richer city than our own, but what they do is IMO adaptable to here.  Trains in the medians of many freeways.  Both heavy rail within the city proper, and commuter rail (Metra), stopping less frequently, throughout the metro area, with connections to each other and to an extensive bus network.  We don't have the greatest example of heavy rail (mainly due to location; the Red Line would be GREAT if people still lived or worked near it in large numbers).  We do have a decent bus network, considering the sparse funding available, it can be expanded if funding improves, and we can build the commuter rail relatively cheaply, since the existing rail infrastructure could be cheaply adapted this use, IF we used some form of self-propelled vehicle.  In that case, since we wouldn't need a third rail or overhead catenary, we could start small, say a few trips during rush hours in both directions (to serve reverse commutes), and scale up when and if demand grows to warrant it.

 

So what am I missing?  Aside from politics, why couldn't this work?

Railbus? Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Personal_Rapid_Transit ?

 

As a former Chicago resident, and a current New Orleans resident, let me say I love the CTA rail lines, and I despise the NOLA streetcars.

 

The streetcars are primarily for tourists.  It's literally faster to walk to work (3.5 miles) than take the streetcar.  I wish it was a bus.  I would kill for BRT!

 

One man's opinion

Make it 2. The cta is my favorite public transit in the country. And I did enjoy the st Charles streetcar, probably because I was a tourist. Not terribly functional for major connectivity

Sorry to butt-in to a thread, but I watched that PBS show and it was very well done.

 

I live in Cincy so I can't pretend to know much about Cleveland or the situation there.  The Cincy Streetcar will be successful because even though downtown is small and compact, it reaches into Over-the-Rhine neighborhood.  OTR is a neighborhood that is in transition but if you drive from CBD to OTR, most people would still think you are in the CBD.  There are so many vacant and dilapidated tenement style buildings that it blows your mind driving through, and IMO the redevelopment has probably only reached 15% of the buildings, at the very most, that are within 2-3 blocks of the line.  Things are starting to kick up though.

 

I am not certain really how Cleveland is laid out, but the Cincy Streetcar is more so a north south route, that will get extended at some point to connect up to UC area.  OTR is really an area between two of the biggest employers in the metro that is not in good shape, at least not the large majority of it.

 

If there is a connection in Cleveland to downtown like that in city within 2-3 miles, I think a light rail or streetcar option could work.  Even just connecting an area like DT Cleveland and an area ripe for redevelopment in a linear fashion could accelerate the growth said area, like what it is doing in Cincinnati.

I agree with what someone said above, to me for a rail system to be highly utilized in Cleveland it's less of a downtown loop system and more of a commuter rail system. If we had a rail system that reached far into all directions and could bring people in from where they live, it would absolutely be used.  Right now anyone in a huge area of the southern/Eastern suburb's only option is driving to Green Rd or Van Aken, neither of which are conveniently located off the freeways, and traveling through the many many stops on those lines. The other option for the northern east side is the ride line terminus in East Cleveland which I'm sure many who could don't go to. The West Side red line is used more but still not optimally located.  Beyond that, we have to make transferring EASY. right now it makes no sense. We actually have a system that goes to many destinations... The Stadiums/Q, the Flats, North Coast, Ohio City, Little Italy/Univ. Circle.... If we had a commuter  system that brought people in and then had a very easy and convenient way to transfer lines, it would be used. Right now everything is so difficult and time consuming that most people don't even realize the places you CAN actually get to.

 

 

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^We could have had the Green Line extended 1.5 miles to a new interchange at I-271 in the 70s, but a coalition lead by Norman Krumholz killed it.  Even still, the large Green Rd lot is used by commuters from a wide area of Heights and Chagrin Valley suburbanites.  Roadways funneling along Shaker Blvd and into the Green Rd parking lot are fast moving and relatively lightly traveled, making LRT commuting attractive from folks far beyond the Green Line terminal.

 

As for a WFL Loop, I only favor a tight loop down E. 17, over to Prospect then Huron and into a subway tunnel connecting to TC through the old Van-built tunnel connection from the late 1920s.  Ideally LRTs would drop down into a subway just east of CSU with a major station at 5-Points under Prospect/Huron/E. 9th with a station entrance near PHS.  -- I know the prevailing view here is that even thinking about a subway is crazy for Cleveland.  Yet subways are being built in other mid-sized cities-- Seattle for one, is building an extensive subway to the north of downtown -- the 1st segment opened to the University of Washington a month ago... Even Pittsburgh built a deep, expensive tunnel under the Allegheny River downtown with 2 new stations (one of these, Gateway, was relocated). 

 

In Cleveland, it's hard to fathom how effective a slow, surface steetcar-like LRT through 5-points would be effective.  This area is prone to backups as it is on warm weekend nights; it's even worse when there's a Cavs or Indians game; imagine how it will be routinely once the ginormous nuCLEus project is built in this area.

 

I can see a few more Rapid extensions being built: I strongly felt that an extension through Lakewood, and Rocky River, possibly using NS tracks if its freight trains could be rerouted to other rail lines to the south of the city.  Lakewood is the most densely populated city in the state and has the Red Line at its edge.  It's really bassackwards that this route was ignored in favor of the BRT-Lite built a few blocks north along Clifton Blvd and, yet, Calabrese's people are pushing (very lightly) a Red Line expansion to Euclid along a much more sparsely populated corridor.

 

I also think LRT from TC under the Detroit-Superior bridge rising to the surface and heading down W. 25 and Pearl Rd to Parma (or even a cheaper LRT branch off the Red Line just south of the W. 25th-OC station).  It is a crowded, dense corridor with several walking districts (brushing past lower Tremont) and even the large Metro General Hospital complex.  Yet once again, Joe Calabrese has trumped rail with his trusty BRT plan before rail can even be discussed -- similar to what happened over in Lakewood (do we see a pattern here?)

 

Traditionally, and ideally, rapid transit was meant to serve the central city and its close-in suburbs while commuter rail, using larger, conventional passenger trains along RR corridors with rush-hour focused schedules serving outer-ring suburbs, collecting them at a single CBD terminal.  That's what cities like Boston, Philly and Toronto have done.  On a larger scale, LA's newer Metro/Metro Link network follows this same traditional model.

 

With all of the RR ROW's, some either lightly used or even abandoned (ie the old Erie-Lackawanna RR route into the SE suburbs), branching deep into the CLE metro area, it would seem that commuter rail would be the way to go... But this is dysfunctional (transit-wise) Cleveland in conservative Ohio, were even large, populous (and growing) counties like Lorain refuses to pony up and subsidize a local transit system.  Elsewhere, cities are building commuter rail... Ain't happenin' here.     

Railbus? Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantown_Personal_Rapid_Transit ?

 

Not quite the same concept.  Morgantown's system appears designed for a different function, connecting several disparate college campuses, uses very small vehicles, and is branded as PRT ("personal rapid transit").  It appears to do that somewhat unique job very well.  I believe the 1985 experiment here was intended as a proof of concept for bringing back something much closer to traditional commuter rail, which had already been gone in Cleveland for decades even then.  This service ran briefly on a fixed route on regular rail tracks, shared at the time (and still now AFAIK) with freight trains, but I believe it used a rubber-tired vehicle comparable in size to Red Line cars, and it was self-propelled, not powered by a third rail or catenary (I do not remember precisely how - it was over 30 years ago - but I'd guess probably diesel). 

 

All this is from memory BTW, and mine is not great, but others on this forum were there also, and may have more accurate and/or detailed recollections.

 

What I think would be awesome would be a vehicle that could run seamlessly on both rail and road (for collection/distribution on surface streets, but making the main haul on rail).  I'm not aware of anything exactly like that, but I'm also not aware of any reason why there couldn't be. 

I don't see how looping the WFL around downtown would attract many additional riders, because it still wouldn't get them anywhere they couldn't walk to.

 

Well speaking personally, my downtown office is on E.12th. It's a long walk from Tower City. I have tried the free Trolley and unless it's nearby I don't see the point in waiting for it, especially in inclement weather. Now if a line ran along E.9th, that to me is a game changer. That's closer than where I could park my car.

^We could have had the Green Line extended 1.5 miles to a new interchange at I-271 in the 70s, but a coalition lead by Norman Krumholz killed it.  Even still, the large Green Rd lot is used by commuters from a wide area of Heights and Chagrin Valley suburbanites.  Roadways funneling along Shaker Blvd and into the Green Rd parking lot are fast moving and relatively lightly traveled, making LRT commuting attractive from folks far beyond the Green Line terminal.

 

As for a WFL Loop, I only favor a tight loop down E. 17, over to Prospect then Huron and into a subway tunnel connecting to TC through the old Van-built tunnel connection from the late 1920s.  Ideally LRTs would drop down into a subway just east of CSU with a major station at 5-Points under Prospect/Huron/E. 9th with a station entrance near PHS.  -- I know the prevailing view here is that even thinking about a subway is crazy for Cleveland.  Yet subways are being built in other mid-sized cities-- Seattle for one, is building an extensive subway to the north of downtown -- the 1st segment opened to the University of Washington a month ago... Even Pittsburgh built a deep, expensive tunnel under the Allegheny River downtown with 2 new stations (one of these, Gateway, was relocated). 

 

In Cleveland, it's hard to fathom how effective a slow, surface steetcar-like LRT through 5-points would be effective.  This area is prone to backups as it is on warm weekend nights; it's even worse when there's a Cavs or Indians game; imagine how it will be routinely once the ginormous nuCLEus project is built in this area.

 

I can see a few more Rapid extensions being built: I strongly felt that an extension through Lakewood, and Rocky River, possibly using NS tracks if its freight trains could be rerouted to other rail lines to the south of the city.  Lakewood is the most densely populated city in the state and has the Red Line at its edge.  It's really bassackwards that this route was ignored in favor of the BRT-Lite built a few blocks north along Clifton Blvd and, yet, Calabrese's people are pushing (very lightly) a Red Line expansion to Euclid along a much more sparsely populated corridor.

 

I also think LRT from TC under the Detroit-Superior bridge rising to the surface and heading down W. 25 and Pearl Rd to Parma (or even a cheaper LRT branch off the Red Line just south of the W. 25th-OC station).  It is a crowded, dense corridor with several walking districts (brushing past lower Tremont) and even the large Metro General Hospital complex.  Yet once again, Joe Calabrese has trumped rail with his trusty BRT plan before rail can even be discussed -- similar to what happened over in Lakewood (do we see a pattern here?)

 

Traditionally, and ideally, rapid transit was meant to serve the central city and its close-in suburbs while commuter rail, using larger, conventional passenger trains along RR corridors with rush-hour focused schedules serving outer-ring suburbs, collecting them at a single CBD terminal.  That's what cities like Boston, Philly and Toronto have done.  On a larger scale, LA's newer Metro/Metro Link network follows this same traditional model.

 

With all of the RR ROW's, some either lightly used or even abandoned (ie the old Erie-Lackawanna RR route into the SE suburbs), branching deep into the CLE metro area, it would seem that commuter rail would be the way to go... But this is dysfunctional (transit-wise) Cleveland in conservative Ohio, were even large, populous (and growing) counties like Lorain refuses to pony up and subsidize a local transit system.  Elsewhere, cities are building commuter rail... Ain't happenin' here.     

 

We have two MSA's of over 700,000 touching each other (overlapping really) with their downtowns less than 40 miles apart, and their well established  transit systems barely connect at all.  It's tough to blame the other counties for the disconnect.

^We could have had the Green Line extended 1.5 miles to a new interchange at I-271 in the 70s, but a coalition lead by Norman Krumholz killed it.  Even still, the large Green Rd lot is used by commuters from a wide area of Heights and Chagrin Valley suburbanites.  Roadways funneling along Shaker Blvd and into the Green Rd parking lot are fast moving and relatively lightly traveled, making LRT commuting attractive from folks far beyond the Green Line terminal.

 

As for a WFL Loop, I only favor a tight loop down E. 17, over to Prospect then Huron and into a subway tunnel connecting to TC through the old Van-built tunnel connection from the late 1920s.  Ideally LRTs would drop down into a subway just east of CSU with a major station at 5-Points under Prospect/Huron/E. 9th with a station entrance near PHS.  -- I know the prevailing view here is that even thinking about a subway is crazy for Cleveland.  Yet subways are being built in other mid-sized cities-- Seattle for one, is building an extensive subway to the north of downtown -- the 1st segment opened to the University of Washington a month ago... Even Pittsburgh built a deep, expensive tunnel under the Allegheny River downtown with 2 new stations (one of these, Gateway, was relocated). 

 

In Cleveland, it's hard to fathom how effective a slow, surface steetcar-like LRT through 5-points would be effective.  This area is prone to backups as it is on warm weekend nights; it's even worse when there's a Cavs or Indians game; imagine how it will be routinely once the ginormous nuCLEus project is built in this area.

 

I can see a few more Rapid extensions being built: I strongly felt that an extension through Lakewood, and Rocky River, possibly using NS tracks if its freight trains could be rerouted to other rail lines to the south of the city.  Lakewood is the most densely populated city in the state and has the Red Line at its edge.  It's really bassackwards that this route was ignored in favor of the BRT-Lite built a few blocks north along Clifton Blvd and, yet, Calabrese's people are pushing (very lightly) a Red Line expansion to Euclid along a much more sparsely populated corridor.

 

I also think LRT from TC under the Detroit-Superior bridge rising to the surface and heading down W. 25 and Pearl Rd to Parma (or even a cheaper LRT branch off the Red Line just south of the W. 25th-OC station).  It is a crowded, dense corridor with several walking districts (brushing past lower Tremont) and even the large Metro General Hospital complex.  Yet once again, Joe Calabrese has trumped rail with his trusty BRT plan before rail can even be discussed -- similar to what happened over in Lakewood (do we see a pattern here?)

 

Traditionally, and ideally, rapid transit was meant to serve the central city and its close-in suburbs while commuter rail, using larger, conventional passenger trains along RR corridors with rush-hour focused schedules serving outer-ring suburbs, collecting them at a single CBD terminal.  That's what cities like Boston, Philly and Toronto have done.  On a larger scale, LA's newer Metro/Metro Link network follows this same traditional model.

 

With all of the RR ROW's, some either lightly used or even abandoned (ie the old Erie-Lackawanna RR route into the SE suburbs), branching deep into the CLE metro area, it would seem that commuter rail would be the way to go... But this is dysfunctional (transit-wise) Cleveland in conservative Ohio, were even large, populous (and growing) counties like Lorain refuses to pony up and subsidize a local transit system.  Elsewhere, cities are building commuter rail... Ain't happenin' here.     

 

We have two MSA's of over 700,000 touching each other (overlapping really) with their downtowns less than 40 miles apart, and their well established  transit systems barely connect at all.  It's tough to blame the other counties for the disconnect.

 

It's pretty amazing that NE Ohio (and SW Ohio/N Ky. for that matter) can't link their communities better through transit. Even with the mostly stagnant population bases of each area there is an incredible setup for a multi-county (and state) transit system. There is no doubt the state plays a big role in the lack of transit development but the insular nature of Ohio's cities and towns plays a part as well. Every city and suburb in Ohio feels like it's out for itself, no matter what the cost. It somewhat counter to what's going on here on the East Coast.

^I don't find it at all amazing. There's very little traffic congestion and households have sorted themselves to some extent based on willingness to pay taxes for services. Completely different conditions from East Coast cities that either have legacy regional systems or strong demand for transit linkages because of traffic congestion, higher spatial concentrations of employment, and higher land costs (so denser development).

 

EDIT: I suppose that's not very responsive to the lack of connections between Summit and Cuyahoga Counties specifically, given both have transit authorities.

We have two MSA's of over 700,000 touching each other (overlapping really) with their downtowns less than 40 miles apart, and their well established  transit systems barely connect at all.  It's tough to blame the other counties for the disconnect.

 

That is part of why I think that commuter or regional rail might make sense in our region, even if pervasive local rail might not.  I believe that rush-hour commuter services to and from places like Mentor, Akron, Lorain, or Elyria, possibly with 2-3 stops in between, might well be viable, if we could negotiate for use of existing rail infrastructure and figure out a funding solution that works across multiple counties.  (Which, IMO, should include a very high level of farebox recovery; if this service is as useful as I think it should be, then I don't think people will mind paying $7-10 for the roundtrip, maybe even more, since they'd be saving at least that much in gas, parking, and time.)

^I don't find it at all amazing. There's very little traffic congestion and households have sorted themselves to some extent based on willingness to pay taxes for services. Completely different conditions from East Coast cities that either have legacy regional systems or strong demand for transit linkages because of traffic congestion, higher spatial concentrations of employment, and higher land costs (so denser development).

 

EDIT: I suppose that's not very responsive to the lack of connections between Summit and Cuyahoga Counties specifically, given both have transit authorities.

 

Strap, when the METRO was built in the 1970s the Washington area had a population just north of 3 million and was smaller than Cleveland-Akron at the time. It wasn't that densely populated at all and traffic wasn't that bad except for the bridges into downtown.

 

OTOH there was a regional consensus to get it built. I don't ever expect to see a transit consensus like that for NE Ohio or SW Ohio in my lifetime.

 

Of course the Feds, Va. and Md. all played a part in getting it built. The folks at the statehouse in Columbus don't seem to want transit either.

^I don't find it at all amazing. There's very little traffic congestion and households have sorted themselves to some extent based on willingness to pay taxes for services. Completely different conditions from East Coast cities that either have legacy regional systems or strong demand for transit linkages because of traffic congestion, higher spatial concentrations of employment, and higher land costs (so denser development).

 

EDIT: I suppose that's not very responsive to the lack of connections between Summit and Cuyahoga Counties specifically, given both have transit authorities.

 

Strap, when the METRO was built in the 1970s the Washington area had a population just north of 3 million and was smaller than Cleveland-Akron at the time. It wasn't that densely populated at all and traffic wasn't that bad except for the bridges into downtown.

 

OTOH there was a regional consensus to get it built. I don't ever expect to see a transit consensus like that for NE Ohio or SW Ohio in my lifetime.

 

Of course the Feds, Va. and Md. all played a part in getting it built. The folks at the statehouse in Columbus don't seem to want transit either.

 

That's a very good point, but I still don't think the situations are comparable.  Rail is typically planned and built to accommodate projected future needs, not current ones.  The DC region in the 70s was almost guaranteed to grow in terms of jobs, income, traffic, and congestion, while Cleveland shrank substantially since then, and is likely to shrink further until the reasons for our economic decline can be admitted, addressed, and corrected.  Even I would not advocate trying to build a full-scale metro system here.  No matter how much I might like to have one, it would be a poor use of the money compared to, say, properly protecting, educating, and training Cleveland residents so they can eventually participate in the local and national economy, and enhancing the bus and rail systems we already have as part of doing so.  For transit to substantially improve, we need to get the economy growing again, and better transit, even if it can be argued to be a necessary precondition to that happening, is not a sufficient one.  Other things need to change as well, those things cost money too, and I think it is very reasonable to try to prioritize those transit improvements that are the most cost-effective, which I do think might include regional/commuter rail, but probably do not include bringing back a dense rail network anytime soon.

^I don't find it at all amazing. There's very little traffic congestion and households have sorted themselves to some extent based on willingness to pay taxes for services. Completely different conditions from East Coast cities that either have legacy regional systems or strong demand for transit linkages because of traffic congestion, higher spatial concentrations of employment, and higher land costs (so denser development).

 

EDIT: I suppose that's not very responsive to the lack of connections between Summit and Cuyahoga Counties specifically, given both have transit authorities.

 

Strap, when the METRO was built in the 1970s the Washington area had a population just north of 3 million and was smaller than Cleveland-Akron at the time. It wasn't that densely populated at all and traffic wasn't that bad except for the bridges into downtown.

 

OTOH there was a regional consensus to get it built. I don't ever expect to see a transit consensus like that for NE Ohio or SW Ohio in my lifetime.

 

Of course the Feds, Va. and Md. all played a part in getting it built. The folks at the statehouse in Columbus don't seem to want transit either.

 

That's a very good point, but I still don't think the situations are comparable.  Rail is typically planned and built to accommodate projected future needs, not current ones.  The DC region in the 70s was almost guaranteed to grow in terms of jobs, income, traffic, and congestion, while Cleveland shrank substantially since then, and is likely to shrink further until the reasons for our economic decline can be admitted, addressed, and corrected.  Even I would not advocate trying to build a full-scale metro system here.  No matter how much I might like to have one, it would be a poor use of the money compared to, say, properly protecting, educating, and training Cleveland residents so they can eventually participate in the local and national economy, and enhancing the bus and rail systems we already have as part of doing so.  For transit to substantially improve, we need to get the economy growing again, and better transit, even if it can be argued to be a necessary precondition to that happening, is not a sufficient one.  Other things need to change as well, those things cost money too, and I think it is very reasonable to try to prioritize those transit improvements that are the most cost-effective, which I do think might include regional/commuter rail, but probably do not include bringing back a dense rail network anytime soon.

 

I agree with you, I'm not advocating to build METRO just a regional partnership on some sort of smaller scale commuter rail. I think it will be difficult to even get that done with the bunker like mentality of cities and towns along with the mostly anti-transit Ohio govt.

 

As a former Chicago resident, and a current New Orleans resident, let me say I love the CTA rail lines, and I despise the NOLA streetcars.

 

The streetcars are primarily for tourists.  It's literally faster to walk to work (3.5 miles) than take the streetcar.  I wish it was a bus.  I would kill for BRT!

 

One man's opinion

 

 

Make that two men's opinions. Almost exactly what I was thinking although it was Tampa's that I was thinking of.

To put this into perspective, Akron Metro RTA provides 11 round trips each weekday between Akron/Cuyahoga Falls and Cleveland, Canton's Stark Area RTA provides three weekday round trips between Canton and Cleveland (not stopping in Akron -- although SARTA has hourly service except Sunday Canton-Akron), and Greyhound has three daily round trips between Akron-Cleveland and two daily round trips Canton-Cleveland. Nowhere else in Ohio does a 60-mile route have so much transit service.

 

The closest demographic comparison is Cincinnati-Hamilton/Middletown-Dayton which has only three daily Greyhound buses (which serves only the Dayton suburb of Trotwood -- an hour-long GDRTA bus ride from downtown Dayton!).

 

And yet most of the commuting from Summit County to Cuyahoga County is from the northern part of Summit (Hudson, Twinsburg, etc) to the offices along I-271 in Beachwood. There is very little commuting from Akron's urban core to Cleveland's urban core. That new suburb-to-suburb commuting pattern was shaped by a huge public investment -- I-271, SR 8, I-480, etc. If there is a desire to refocus development in to the urban cores of Cleveland, Akron and Canton with new, walkable satellite transit towns in between, another huge public investment into a transit line to reduce travel times and travel costs could be considered. Considering the limited use of the Canton-Akron-Cleveland buses (the rush-hour runs are heavily used but the off-peak trips are lightly used), it would require a great deal of vision and a leap of faith that this major public investment would provide a public-benefits return on the 30-year life of the original investment.

 

BTW, most of the rush-hour riders on the Cleveland-Akron buses board at suburban park-n-rides in Ghent and Hudson. You can look up the X60 and X61 North Coast Express bus routes/schedules here: http://www.akronmetro.org/SharedFiles/Download.aspx?pageid=76&mid=118&fileid=2296

 

Here's the Canton-Cleveland bus route/schedule: http://www.sartaonline.com/cleveland-bus-route-549

And the Canton-Akron bus route/schedule: http://www.sartaonline.com/Content/uploads/81-web-2383.pdf

See Greyhound.com for the Cleveland-Akron-Canton daily schedule including the weekends.

^I don't find it at all amazing. There's very little traffic congestion and households have sorted themselves to some extent based on willingness to pay taxes for services. Completely different conditions from East Coast cities that either have legacy regional systems or strong demand for transit linkages because of traffic congestion, higher spatial concentrations of employment, and higher land costs (so denser development).

 

EDIT: I suppose that's not very responsive to the lack of connections between Summit and Cuyahoga Counties specifically, given both have transit authorities.

 

Strap, when the METRO was built in the 1970s the Washington area had a population just north of 3 million and was smaller than Cleveland-Akron at the time. It wasn't that densely populated at all and traffic wasn't that bad except for the bridges into downtown.

 

OTOH there was a regional consensus to get it built. I don't ever expect to see a transit consensus like that for NE Ohio or SW Ohio in my lifetime.

 

Of course the Feds, Va. and Md. all played a part in getting it built. The folks at the statehouse in Columbus don't seem to want transit either.

 

That's a very good point, but I still don't think the situations are comparable.  Rail is typically planned and built to accommodate projected future needs, not current ones.  The DC region in the 70s was almost guaranteed to grow in terms of jobs, income, traffic, and congestion, while Cleveland shrank substantially since then, and is likely to shrink further until the reasons for our economic decline can be admitted, addressed, and corrected.  Even I would not advocate trying to build a full-scale metro system here.  No matter how much I might like to have one, it would be a poor use of the money compared to, say, properly protecting, educating, and training Cleveland residents so they can eventually participate in the local and national economy, and enhancing the bus and rail systems we already have as part of doing so.  For transit to substantially improve, we need to get the economy growing again, and better transit, even if it can be argued to be a necessary precondition to that happening, is not a sufficient one.  Other things need to change as well, those things cost money too, and I think it is very reasonable to try to prioritize those transit improvements that are the most cost-effective, which I do think might include regional/commuter rail, but probably do not include bringing back a dense rail network anytime soon.

 

Why was DC almost guaranteed to grow given the state of the District until about 10 years ago?  The DC Metro, while extensive, has critical safety issues so, despite its popularity, it has major $$ issues.  The Federal Gov't will bail it out I'm sure.  This is a nice source of funding for the Metro. 

 

DC's new Streetcar is up and running and, as has been stated here about Streetcars, riders have said it's slow. 

 

On the other hand, had Cleveland leaders and RTA stuck to what the residents wanted, there would be a much more extensive rail system and, I believe, Cleveland's decline may not have been as steep and its subsequent recovery not as protracted.

On the other hand, had Cleveland leaders and RTA stuck to what the residents wanted, there would be a much more extensive rail system and, I believe, Cleveland's decline may not have been as steep and its subsequent recovery not as protracted.

 

Really!?  How about: what Cleveland pols and leaders wanted.  In 1953 Cuyahoga County voters voted 2-1 to build a downtown loop subway.  Yet, the County Commissioners, egged on by County Engineer Albert Porter, thwarted voters' wishes, and didn't build it... In the 1990s, Cleveland was poised to build the Dual Hub Subway up Euclid, but instead, decided it was too expensive and, hence, we have the cramped, slow-moving, Health Line BRT. RTA had a transit chief, Ron Tober, who wanted to expand rapid transit and develop commuter rail in many of the ways discussed up thread (Tober btw pushed hard for the Dual Hub rail subway project), but local leaders thought him to be too grandiose and ran him out of town -- he landed in Charlotte and led development of Charlotte's first (and expanding) LRT system.  Instead, leaders opted for the more conservative Joe Calabrese who was more their speed.  How different would Cleveland have been if these projects had been built?  It was leadership, not the people, who did this. 

 

... Oh yeah, and it was also leadership who opted to build the $350M Opportunity Corridor highway through the city, led by Gov/Pres hopeful John Kasich, at the same time the State has become among the stingiest in the nation toward funding public transit...

A lot of residents might prefer better bus service, and a lot of places rail could go to aren't interested. 

 

The West 25th-Ridge Road corridor really needs rail.  But that went over like socialized medicine, RTA considered it for 5 minutes.  Extending the western red line is almost taboo.  And now they're literally building a wall between the blue line and Beachwood.  That's TOD the RTA way.

NOTE: Lakewood has a dense, walkable downtown among its many cool attributes... I always shake my head at how RTA, and it's predecessors, have been unable to extend the Rapid (of the rail kind) along NS into this quality urban-suburb.  Talk about putting trains where the people are -- this is it.  But, no, Joe C loves his buses, ... er, BRT Lite.

 

9 Reasons why Lakewood really is Cleveland's coolest suburb

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/04/9_reasons_why_lakewood_really.html#0

NOTE: Lakewood has a dense, walkable downtown among its many cool attributes... I always shake my head at how RTA, and it's predecessors, have been unable to extend the Rapid (of the rail kind) along NS into this quality urban-suburb.  Talk about putting trains where the people are -- this is it.  But, no, Joe C loves his buses, ... er, BRT Lite.

 

9 Reasons why Lakewood really is Cleveland's coolest suburb

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/04/9_reasons_why_lakewood_really.html#0

 

A Streetcar up Detroit would be rad.  NS line would end up with how many at-grade crossings (I'm sure KJP can spit out this count in a second here... :-D).  Ungainly, but certainly the space is there next to the main track to do so?

It would appear to be about 27 grade crossings in Lakewood, counting W 117. (including my street). There was a plan, that didn't come to pass, that would have dead-ended a number of streets to reduce this count.

 

During the 30 years that I lived in Lakewood, they tore out the second track on the NS line, going down to a single track. So there is definitely room for two tracks.  The number of freight trains is down drastically compared to the 1980's or early 1990's.