Maybe another thing keeping CSU from becoming something greater is the fact it has to share the public school market with Kent State and Akron University. NEO has two large cities and that can be an asset or a liability depending on the issue. In this case not only does the city of Akron detract from Cleveland, Akron University dilutes the NEO college market. As does Kent State. So even though Cleveland is the larger city Akron, followed by Kent dilutes the political and business focus as each have their champions. Most of our peer cities only have one city at their core so any efforts to build up the local university scene can focus on the main school. I think that's a big advantage. 

 

Not to mention CSU is the Johnny come lately school of the three. They started last and are still playing catch up.

Don't get me started on Rockefeller founding the University of Chicago. He wanted to do that in Cleveland but couldn't get his peers to buy in so he took his idea and money to Chicago where he was welcomed with open arms. That decision was the first of many that our business leaders fumbled to our lasting regret. 

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

Don't get me started on Rockefeller founding the University of Chicago. He wanted to do that in Cleveland but couldn't get his peers to buy in so he took his idea and money to Chicago where he was welcomed with open arms. That decision was the first of many that our business leaders fumbled to our lasting regret. 

Wait, wasn't J.D. one of our local business leaders? One of the richest men in the world and all that?  I think the back story is too complicated to be captured in a few postings on this chat board. Maybe, we should launch a UO lecture series and invite historians to donate an hour of their time?  😊

A few thoughts:

 

1) If Cleveland University (1851-1853) in Tremont had survived, I have no doubts today if would be the same size as Pitt or even University of Cincinnati:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_University 

 

2)  Pittsburgh Eds and Meds really does show a difference.  The fact that Carnegie Mellon is larger than CSU is pretty shocking...

 

University of Pitt = 28,391

Carnegie Mellon = 15,818

Duquesne University = 9,344

Chatham University = 2,300

Carlow University = 2,140

 

PITTSBURGH TOTAL = 57,993

 

Cleveland State = 15,464

Case Western Reserve = 12,069

 

CLEVELAND TOTAL =  27,533

 

And the fact the Pitt is larger than both CSU and CWRU combined is very eye-opening. 

 

Univ of Pitt really is the biggest educational difference...the presence of that top, large public University. since Cleveland metro also has BW (3,532) and JCU (3,673) that would mirror Pittsburgh two smaller Catholic schools.  (I suspect I'm also not counting some suburban small Pittsburgh colleges).

 

3) I see a reference to JCU and Jesuit school sports (which I agree with).  People also forget Cleveland had Western Reserve as it's main football presence before 1954, when the school decided to deemphasize football and drop the DI schedule.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Western_Reserve_Spartans_football#Pre-merger_(1890–1969)

 

Western Reserve is the only Ohio team with a winning record, 6–5–1, against the Ohio State Buckeyes, playing from 1891–1934. 

 

Famed Notre Dame coach, Knute Rockne, made his head coaching debut on September 28, 1918 against Case held at University Circle's Van Horn Field. George "The Gipper" Gipp led the Fighting Irish to a 26–6 victory rushing for two touchdowns.  Although the home team could not play spoiler in his debut, Case lays claim to scoring the first touchdown against Rockne. 

 

In 1920, The Alabama Crimson Tide played their first ever game in the north at University Circle's Van Horn Field against Case, mainly due to coach Xen C. Scott, prior coach of both Case and Western Reserve, wanting to showcase his new team to the Cleveland audience.

 

Cleveland had its own Big Four Conference, which was formed in 1933 consisting of Baldwin-Wallace, Case Tech, John Carroll, and Western Reserve. Some of the highest attended games in school history occurred during this decade, needing to be played at Cleveland Municipal Stadium and League Park to handle the larger crowds. The champion received the Douglas S. Campbell Trophy. Case Tech won the inaugural in 1933 and then Western Reserve won eight out of the next nine—1934, 1935, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1940, 1941, and 1942. The local tradition came to an end due to the interruption of World War II.

 

The Bill Edwards era (1936–1941) propelled Western Reserve into the national spotlight, achieving three undefeated seasons (1935, 1936, and 1938), a 28-game win streak, and the school's only bowl game — 1941 Sun Bowl, played Jan 1, 1941.  Over his six-year tenure, Coach Edwards guided the team to a 49–6–2 (0.877) record, earning a spot in the College Football Hall of Fame before heading off to coach the Detroit Lions.

 

After a short hiatus during World War II, football resumed in 1946 where Western Reserve pushed hard to elevate the program to the national stage scheduling teams such as Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Rutgers, West Virginia, Marshall, Kent State, Miami of Ohio, Ohio University, Western Michigan, Colgate, Brown, and Duquesne. In 1946, Western Reserve became a charter member with the formation of the Mid-American Conference, in conjunction with Ohio University, Butler, Cincinnati, and Wayne State. Ohio’s first ever intercollegiate TV football game aired on October 23, 1948, where Western Reserve battled Kent State to a 14-14 tie.

 

In 1954, Western Reserve withdrew from the MAC, citing the need for the school to focus more energy on academics and the high cost of running a big time program spearheaded by President John S. Millis.

 

4) I wonder if things would have turned out differently if Western Reserve had actually built that large proposed football stadium during the Great Depression in University Circle...knowing how big of a business college football had become, and bringing noterity to universities.  

 

Article from 1935:

 

https://newspapers.case.edu/?a=d&d=TRW19351105-01.2.9&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN-------

 

 

Other stadiums over time have had seats added, including both Pitt and UC.

 

5)  I still think the best thing to do is greatly grow and expand Cleveland State University.  I am also a fan of the name change to University of Cleveland. 

 

I also think relocating a school to Cleveland should not be dismissed if there is ever an opportunity.  When Division II Urbana University closed in 2020, my first thought was "too bad there isn't a way to fund and relocate the school to Cleveland..."   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbana_University

Edited May 24, 20223 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

Side note: just found a really interesting article from 1919!

 

RESERVE AND CASE MAY SOON COMBINE 

Committee Now Working to Bring About University of Cleveland

The Reserve Weekly, Volume XVII, Number 2, 8 October 1919

 

https://newspapers.case.edu/?a=d&d=TRW19191008-01.2.39&srpos=5&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN-"western+reserve"+stadium+20%2c000------

From reading this thread, hoping my degree I’m working towards isn’t worthless.

5 hours ago, JB said:

From reading this thread, hoping my degree I’m working towards isn’t worthless.

This needs more context. I don't know where you are going to school. If it's CSU, that school is much better than it was 25 years ago, and even then it put many fine graduates into the local workforce included many of my tech co-workers. And it has a great urban planning program and a quality law school. If it's CWRU, it's a fine institution as well, and where I got my degree. That said, both schools have the potential to be more than they are.  CWRU was on an excellent trajectory with Barb Snyder at the helm and I was very bummed to see her leave. Hopefully new Pres. Kaler can continue this positive direction.

Edited May 24, 20223 yr by Boomerang_Brian
“Urban planning program”, not “urban design school”. Thx X

Cleveland has a well regarded Urban Studies program, especially their Master's of Public Administration.  Unless something changed, they do not have an urban design program.

5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

This needs more context. I don't know where you are going to school. If it's CSU, that school is much better than it was 25 years ago, and even then it put many fine graduates into the local workforce included many of my tech co-workers. And it has a great urban design school and a quality law school. If it's CWRU, it's a fine institution as well, and where I got my degree. That said, both schools have the potential to be more than they are.  CWRU was on an excellent trajectory with Barb Snyder at the helm and I was very bummed to see her leave. Hopefully new Pres. Kaler can continue this positive direction.

My bad, CSU. I’m a new dad going back to school with work reimbursing. Don’t have many choices.

23 minutes ago, X said:

Cleveland has a well regarded Urban Studies program, especially their Master's of Public Administration.  Unless something changed, they do not have an urban design program.

Hmm, I’m not that close to it, it would have been better for me to say “urban planning” instead of “urban design”. 
 

Masters of Urban Planning:

https://urban.csuohio.edu/mupd/mupd

Per CSU:

The Maxine Goodman Levin College of Urban Affairs at Cleveland State University is consistently recognized as one of the best public affairs colleges in the nation according to US News & World Report. 

Our Master of Urban Planning and Development (MUPD) program equips urban planning and development professionals with the knowledge and skills to effect positive change for diverse and dynamic metropolitan regions and communities. The MUPD program prepares future planners with skills to analyze past, present and future urban conditions and provides them with an opportunity to develop technical expertise in a variety of areas of practice. Through our curriculum, engaged activities, and faculty research, we generate innovative ideas that foster livable, equitable, vibrant, and sustainable futures, particularly for legacy cities.

53 minutes ago, X said:

Cleveland has a well regarded Urban Studies program, especially their Master's of Public Administration.  Unless something changed, they do not have an urban design program.

The program used to be called MUPDD with one of those D’s being design. Not sure when they dropped the design.

5 minutes ago, bumsquare said:

The program used to be called MUPDD with one of those D’s being design. Not sure when they dropped the design.

It's been a few years since they dropped "Design" from the degree. To be honest, the degree wasn't very design focused even when it was MUPDD. It is more of a policy program than a design program.  

37 minutes ago, freefourur said:

It's been a few years since they dropped "Design" from the degree. To be honest, the degree wasn't very design focused even when it was MUPDD. It is more of a policy program than a design program.  

 

Yes, I'd forgotten the details, but this is exactly right.  I did my undergrad at Levin and then went elsewhere for my masters because the MUPDD didn't really offer much of the "design".  A planning school really need to be attached to an architecture school to be able to offer a full urban design program.

18 hours ago, cadmen said:

Maybe another thing keeping CSU from becoming something greater is the fact it has to share the public school market with Kent State and Akron University. NEO has two large cities and that can be an asset or a liability depending on the issue. In this case not only does the city of Akron detract from Cleveland, Akron University dilutes the NEO college market. As does Kent State. So even though Cleveland is the larger city Akron, followed by Kent dilutes the political and business focus as each have their champions. Most of our peer cities only have one city at their core so any efforts to build up the local university scene can focus on the main school. I think that's a big advantage. 

 

I'm not sure this is it. Cincinnati has UC and Miami, plus NKU right across the river. And if you're including Akron and Kent in the Cleveland market you have to consider Dayton in the Cincinnati market, so you also have Wright State in the Cincinnati public school market. 

 

I'd say the bigger issue with CSU is probably just the age of the institution. UC, OSU, Miami, and even Kent and Akron have had longer to establish themselves and build up their endowments. You also have OU, the public institution with the third largest endowment in the state and the longest history, which syphons off more kids from Cleveland and Columbus than it does Cincinnati.

 

 

36 minutes ago, X said:

 

Yes, I'd forgotten the details, but this is exactly right.  I did my undergrad at Levin and then went elsewhere for my masters because the MUPDD didn't really offer much of the "design".  A planning school really need to be attached to an architecture school to be able to offer a full urban design program.

When I attended we took design classes at the Kent State Urban Design Collaborative (part of KSU’s architecture school). It’s been a few years, but from what I remember the courses were pretty evenly split between planning/design/development. Although you would pick a focus at some point. Not everyone took all of the same classes. 

Edited May 24, 20223 yr by bumsquare

16 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I'm not sure this is it. Cincinnati has UC and Miami, plus NKU right across the river. And if you're including Akron and Kent in the Cleveland market you have to consider Dayton in the Cincinnati market, so you also have Wright State in the Cincinnati public school market. 

 

I'd say the bigger issue with CSU is probably just the age of the institution. UC, OSU, Miami, and even Kent and Akron have had longer to establish themselves and build up their endowments. You also have OU, the public institution with the third largest endowment in the state and the longest history, which syphons off more kids from Cleveland and Columbus than it does Cincinnati.

 

 

CSU was never really intended as a research institution. It was a college that was to cater to the city students and offer an affordable education to the masses.  UC and Akron both started with those missions but given that they were much older institutions they evolved into much more research focused schools based on the needs of the local community (Akron with the rubber companies and UC with all the engineering, design, chemical companies in the region) Wright State is another good example and more of a peer to CSU as they developed around the same time. Wright is not a phenomenal research school necessarily but it offers some very good programs given the needs of the military base nearby. CSU has always reminded me much more of a NKU type model than what you would think of as a large R-1 level research school. 

18 hours ago, DO_Summers said:

Wait, wasn't J.D. one of our local business leaders? One of the richest men in the world and all that?  I think the back story is too complicated to be captured in a few postings on this chat board. Maybe, we should launch a UO lecture series and invite historians to donate an hour of their time?  😊

Or just read this essay:

 

https://teachingcleveland.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Why-a-University-For-Chicago-And-Not-Cleveland-rose2.pdf

20 hours ago, cadmen said:

Maybe another thing keeping CSU from becoming something greater is the fact it has to share the public school market with Kent State and Akron University.

 

Just an fyi it is not Akron University but The University of Akron.

 

GO ZIPS!!!

2 hours ago, bumsquare said:

When I attended we took design classes at the Kent State Urban Design Collaborative (part of KSU’s architecture school). It’s been a few years, but from what I remember the courses were pretty evenly split between planning/design/development. Although you would pick a focus at some point. Not everyone took all of the same classes. 

 

Yes, that's after my time.

3 hours ago, aderwent said:

Or just read this essay:

 

https://teachingcleveland.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Why-a-University-For-Chicago-And-Not-Cleveland-rose2.pdf

Yes, thank you. This essay seems to be in alignment with the info provided on the website of University of Chicago.  He was heavily lobbied by members of the Baptist church to make a substantial donation to help found UC. Later, he significantly added large sums to keep the university afloat.  There is not really any factor that can be pinned on community or church leaders in Cleveland proper in regard to UC.  Rockefeller's suggestion and promotion to move Dennison U. to Cleveland fell through because of local Baptist leaders thinking the moral environment in a small town was the better site.

13 hours ago, DO_Summers said:

Yes, thank you. This essay seems to be in alignment with the info provided on the website of University of Chicago.  He was heavily lobbied by members of the Baptist church to make a substantial donation to help found UC. Later, he significantly added large sums to keep the university afloat.  There is not really any factor that can be pinned on community or church leaders in Cleveland proper in regard to UC.  Rockefeller's suggestion and promotion to move Dennison U. to Cleveland fell through because of local Baptist leaders thinking the moral environment in a small town was the better site.

 

In his biography, this is discussed at length. 

 

John D. Rockefeller, for all of his faults, was definitely a man of conviction. Part of the problem, in his assessment, was that the local leaders in Cleveland wouldn't steward the university in the way it needed, and that he'd have to bail them out to save face. Ironically, that's ultimately what happened in Chicago. 

 

As an aside, JDR is also the reason for the existence of several HBCU's with his contributions not being made public until after his death - save the instance of Spellman.