1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Not the hospital site by itself but if added to the Juvenile Justice Center and Olde Cedar (31 acres +/-), it would be. But the optics of tearing down public housing for a billionaire's playhouse might just ignite the revolution against the oligarchs that simmers just below the surface in America.

 

Well, in that case...

 

Anyway, this is really sad news, but not shocking.  Healthcare is just a money making business these days, and it only works if hospitals play keep away from poor communities.

Well, there goes another piece of my life into the mists of time. I worked in St. Vincent's operating room for four years back in the day. I loved working there and loved working downtown. Maybe it's just because l was younger then but l remember the atmosphere in and around the hospital seemed vibrant, full of posibilities. Maybe it was just that there were people walking around back then. Now, it's awfully quiet. Soon it will be a blank slate. Hopefully it will turn into a busy residential neighborhood but l'll always remember it as a great place to work in a great time to be young.

There's already a lot of blank slate in that area and Tri-C sure isn't expanding. 

 

Very sad news.

46 minutes ago, TBideon said:

There's already a lot of blank slate in that area and Tri-C sure isn't expanding. 

 

Very sad news.

And nobody is champing at the bit to develop those blank slates.

You know, there's about 20 acres of land being used to connect I-77 to I-90.  I know it will never happen, but if they could connect I-77 to I-90 either via I-490, or even via I-480/176, then you'd have enough space to put a new stadium.  Bonus- The new stadium would be on ORANGE AVENUE!  🤣

It's odd that Ontario Ave changes to Orange Ave south of E 9th.  I wonder why they didn't just stay with the same name?

^ It's because Ontario Street bends to the east after it goes under I-90, and thus becomes an avenue.  In the early-1900s Cleveland street system that gave us the numbered streets, most north-south roads have numbers instead of names and are designated "street." (Ontario is unique since it passed through Public Square, which would have made it 0 -- Zero -- Street.)  East-west roads are designated "avenues" and have names.  Their addresses correspond to the street numbers.  This system extends into the suburbs, although many name their streets and drop the initial "1" from the longer east-west addresses to keep them at four digits. Oh, and one more fun fact: "Evens on the right." If you stand in Public Square and look east along the avenues, the even numbers are on your right, on the south side of the avenues. Turn to your right and look south along the streets, and the even numbers are still on the right, which is their west side. Turn again and look west along the avenues, and the even addresses are still on the right, which is now the north side.

17 minutes ago, Quilliam said:

^ It's because Ontario Street bends to the east after it goes under I-90, and thus becomes an avenue.  In the early-1900s Cleveland street system that gave us the numbered streets, most north-south roads have numbers instead of names and are designated "street." (Ontario is unique since it passed through Public Square, which would have made it 0 -- Zero -- Street.)  East-west roads are designated "avenues" and have names.  Their addresses correspond to the street numbers.  This system extends into the suburbs, although many name their streets and drop the initial "1" from the longer east-west addresses to keep them at four digits. Oh, and one more fun fact: "Evens on the right." If you stand in Public Square and look east along the avenues, the even numbers are on your right, on the south side of the avenues. Turn to your right and look south along the streets, and the even numbers are still on the right, which is their west side. Turn again and look west along the avenues, and the even addresses are still on the right, which is now the north side.

 

2 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Quilliam said:

^ It's because Ontario Street bends to the east after it goes under I-90, and thus becomes an avenue. 

OK, so its not because of a latent anti-Canadian sentiment? 🤔

1 hour ago, DO_Summers said:

 

OK, so its not because of a latent anti-Canadian sentiment? 🤔

Not so much anymore since the Ontarians do patronize our Cleveland Clinic in great numbers and because we love the Canadian Prince and Princess since their epic wedding

but they can have these two:

Edited November 12, 2024Nov 12 by Willo

14 hours ago, Quilliam said:

^ It's because Ontario Street bends to the east after it goes under I-90, and thus becomes an avenue.  In the early-1900s Cleveland street system that gave us the numbered streets, most north-south roads have numbers instead of names and are designated "street." (Ontario is unique since it passed through Public Square, which would have made it 0 -- Zero -- Street.)  East-west roads are designated "avenues" and have names.  Their addresses correspond to the street numbers.  This system extends into the suburbs, although many name their streets and drop the initial "1" from the longer east-west addresses to keep them at four digits. Oh, and one more fun fact: "Evens on the right." If you stand in Public Square and look east along the avenues, the even numbers are on your right, on the south side of the avenues. Turn to your right and look south along the streets, and the even numbers are still on the right, which is their west side. Turn again and look west along the avenues, and the even addresses are still on the right, which is now the north side.

 

Ironically, addresses north and south start with the lake.  Project Ontario to the Lake and you will find Cleveland Browns Stadium, which is effectively the point of origin for addresses in the region.

17 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

And some still want to close Burke....

Yes because if why wait 20 years to close an airport that takes 10-15 years to close? In that 20 year timeframe Cleveland will be a much different city why stagnate it by having to wait for ANOTHER 10-15 years because you chose to keep an airport open that loses the city money? Look at the Browns stadium situation, because we kept that airport open we missed out on an opportunity to move it over there to compete with Brookpark. Why repeat the same thing twice? 

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Most here.

Replied in appropriate thread

 

19 hours ago, Dino said:

I know it will never happen, but if they could connect I-77 to I-90 either via I-490, or even via I-480/176, then you'd have enough space to put a new stadium. 

Agreed, this will never happen, but it's surprisingly reasonable. Knocking down a building or two in Tremont would free up a lot of space near downtown. 

 

More reasonably though, if the DOT decides to play ball, much of this land, particularly that near Ontario/Orange could be opened up for development. Still not likely in our current environment, but I can much easier imagine a shift in the political winds sufficient for this change than rerouting 77. 

 

--

 

I'd like the hospital site for a stadium, if it were feasible. It's not, so it's a moot point, but it checks the boxes for me, on the edge of downtown, near freeways, etc. 

There isn't even a coherent vision for Burke 2.0, more or less a proper feeder airport, more or less developer and investor interest, more or less population (local and metro) interest, more or less a prayer of financing.

 

Spending years and hundreds of millions of dollars (from where exactly?) just so Burke sits empty indefinitely is a waste of effort.

 

There are too many vacant parcels as it is throughout the city; focus needs to be pushed on developing those properties and not creating even more due to some abstract climate refugee/migrant influx in 2080.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2024Nov 12 by TBideon

2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Yes because if why wait 20 years to close an airport that takes 10-15 years to close? In that 20 year timeframe Cleveland will be a much different city why stagnate it by having to wait for ANOTHER 10-15 years because you chose to keep an airport open that loses the city money? Look at the Browns stadium situation, because we kept that airport open we missed out on an opportunity to move it over there to compete with Brookpark. Why repeat the same thing twice? 

..or within 5 years as County Executive Chris Ronayne said recently. Let’s just do it with Metroparks waiting in the wings to take over. A lakefront nature preserve would be a relatively low cost force multiplier- activating underutilized land across and along the east side bluffs for development (like Gordon Square west side). Most importantly, this aviation expert (native Clevelander) also tells how easy it would be to shut it down.
https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2024/11/how-to-close-burke-airport-with-a-minimum-of-faa-and-private-aviation-pushback-roger-cohen.html

Plus we have more than enough nearby FAA-certified Reliever airports ready to go in the region - no waiting. Why keep the airport open so the reported primary user Dee Haslam can board her jet in 5 minutes to fly to Palm Beach. Instead Clevelanders of all walks of life need inclusive and equitable lakefront recreation access.

14 minutes ago, Willo said:Plus we have more than enough nearby FAA-certified Reliever airports ready to go in the region - no waiting. Why keep the airport open so the reported primary user Dee Haslam can board her jet in 5 minutes to fly to Palm Beach. Instead Clevelanders of all walks of life need inclusive and equitable lakefront recreation access.

Dee Haslam uses the airport way less than the Cleveland Clinic's rotary and fixed wing air ambulance operations.  

 

But this is a conversation best moved to the BKL thread. 

 

What may follow St. Vincent’s demolition?
By Ken Prendergast / November 12, 2024

 

Turns out there is more to the story that NEOtrans broke over the weekend — that St. Vincent Charity Community Health Center (SVCCHC) main campus, 2351 E. 22nd St., at the west end of Cleveland’s Central neighborhood, will be demolished in the coming months.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/11/12/what-may-follow-st-vincents-demolition/

20 hours ago, Quilliam said:

It's because Ontario Street bends to the east after it goes under I-90, and thus becomes an avenue. 

OK, I get it, but since Orange only goes a short distance, perhaps they could have just kept it as Ontario.  Not all streets go perfectly north-south or east-west.

I'll tell you what, after the Browns stadium is torn down, after Burke is closed and after St. Vincent's is demolished we're sure going to have plenty of vacant land. Land just sitting there not doing a hell of a lot. 

 

Let's hope those expected climate refugee's get here sooner rather than later. We're gonna need 'em.

And let's not forget the vacant land along the opportunity corridor.

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

I'll tell you what, after the Browns stadium is torn down, after Burke is closed and after St. Vincent's is demolished we're sure going to have plenty of vacant land. Land just sitting there not doing a hell of a lot. 

 

Let's hope those expected climate refugee's get here sooner rather than later. We're gonna need 'em.

Eh the St. Vincent's site seems like it has a plan in place so if money is there for it something will be on that site. The CMHA Housing seems like a when and not if. Burke won't close for another 10-15 years most likely so in that time frame you really have just the Lakefront space.

 

I will say the city really needs to redevelop the Browns site ASAP because it is the front door to our city and sits prominently in a lot of images and videos. An empty site seems like a black eye.

20 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Eh the St. Vincent's site seems like it has a plan in place so if money is there for it something will be on that site. The CMHA Housing seems like a when and not if. Burke won't close for another 10-15 years most likely so in that time frame you really have just the Lakefront space.

 

I will say the city really needs to redevelop the Browns site ASAP because it is the front door to our city and sits prominently in a lot of images and videos. An empty site seems like a black eye.

True - the St Vincent's site and Juvenil Court buildings will come into focus quickly with the planned CMHA housing redo, the news that the County is moving its Centers For Families And Children HQ to the campus, and the good Sisters remaining and collaborating with others on developing a Health and Healing Hub.  Don't know what this will comprise but we have a hole in our overall social safety net to include the need for more workforce housing, medical services, and mental health services. Seems the like the dye is cast for those services to begin in this location - after all, social services and work force housing should be part any 15-minute city and TOD planning.  There should also be room for a substantial Newcomers/Immigrant Welcome Center - maybe Gov DeWine could get the ball rolling by inviting his family's Haitian charity operation here and woo those newcomers to Cleveland instead of southern Ohio.  The Health and Healing Hub concept seems like the right approach for our community and should happen soon (on the other extreme we are not worried about Burke as it can close in as little as 5 years with our current City/County visionary leadership leading to the easy conversion of the sleepy and tired redundant airport to an all-peoples access lakefront nature preserve).

11 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

OK, I get it, but since Orange only goes a short distance, perhaps they could have just kept it as Ontario.  Not all streets go perfectly north-south or east-west.

 

Go to Europe. In London, for example, a street can change its name every couple of blocks.

 

As long as there's still federal and state tax credits for affordable housing, I have few doubts that the west end of Central will get redeveloped. I'd love to see some mixed-income mid- and high-rises with ground-floor commercial and institutional uses built in here.

^Agreed.  It's an area next to downtown and between two colleges.  It has a ton of potential.  I think a CSU residential village like the Langston would be a good use of the land.  It would help "extend" the campus, and by proxy, downtown, across the highway and it would soften the market a little for more market rate housing.

22 hours ago, Dino said:

^Agreed.  It's an area next to downtown and between two colleges.  It has a ton of potential.  I think a CSU residential village like the Langston would be a good use of the land.  It would help "extend" the campus, and by proxy, downtown, across the highway and it would soften the market a little for more market rate housing.

It would be if what the CSU master plan had envisioned for the Wolstein Arena - a Partneship village - had a chance (to include adding a 22nd street cap over the hgihway. But given CSU's current finacial instability I assume their master plan will be revised further inward. Plus, their recent master plan has future student housing expanding again to the north between Chester and Payne and did not contemplate a southward expansion even when when they still had a rosey outlook and swung for the fences with their wish list. 

 

Now if some other institution can connect the Wolstein Arena giant footprint wtih a highway CAP (see C-Bus Short North Cap) with the soon to be vacant Juvenile Court and St V land...I don't think the women's soccer league can wait that long - unless Cincy beats us out for the expansion team next week and the investor group wants to rethink their proposed site.

1 hour ago, Willo said:

 But given CSU's current finacial instability I assume their master plan will be revised further inward.

I heard from a friend that it's pretty dire at CSU.   

I've heard that too. Plus there are rumors that Baldwin-Wallace and Lakeland may be closing/getting acquired too. 

 

A difficult time for local colleges.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I heard from a friend that it's pretty dire at CSU.   

 

So have I.

I don’t think we invest in our local colleges as much as other thriving cities do like Columbus, Cincinnati, Austin, California. Maybe we do but we just don’t have enough people in our region/ maybe a disadvantage of having two other semi-major metros like Columbus and Cincinnati taking more edu funds but all these successful systems seem to start with an investment from the tax payers. 
 

just an outside observer on this one could be wrong 

2 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

I don’t think we invest in our local colleges as much as other thriving cities do like Columbus, Cincinnati, Austin, California. Maybe we do but we just don’t have enough people in our region/ maybe a disadvantage of having two other semi-major metros like Columbus and Cincinnati taking more edu funds but all these successful systems seem to start with an investment from the tax payers. 
 

just an outside observer on this one could be wrong 

 

It's happening everywhere

 

US College Enrollment Decline – 2024 Facts & Figures

https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/college-enrollment-decline/

 

Only a few colleges, especially private ones, are seeing rising enrollment. Fortunately we have one of them -- CWRU.

It is only going to get worse as the 2008 recession baby bust is about to hit.

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

I've heard that too. Plus there are rumors that Baldwin-Wallace and Lakeland may be closing/getting acquired too. 

 

A difficult time for local colleges.

 

 

Would it be smart for the struggling Universities to merge? Cleveland State would become something similar to Kent with a main campus and the satellites in outer areas/suburbs like they have with their Twinsburg campus? I don't see the point of competing with each other when everyone is struggling.  

That's beyond my pay grade. For what it's worth, OSU is rumored to be looking at either Baldwin-Wallace or Lakeland, I forget which.

 

Edited November 14, 2024Nov 14 by TBideon

I felt that tri c should merge with csu. csu could just offer a more robust associates program

Edited November 14, 2024Nov 14 by Whipjacka

10 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

I felt that tri c should merge with csu. csu could just offer a more robust associates program

 

At the very least they could share amenities. 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

It's happening everywhere

 

US College Enrollment Decline – 2024 Facts & Figures

https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/college-enrollment-decline/

 

Only a few colleges, especially private ones, are seeing rising enrollment. Fortunately we have one of them -- CWRU.

Touché I’m biased I’ve been seeing nothing but record breaking years for my alma mater and only see the region strengthen its investment in it I think same could be true of OSU but it looks like they’ve seen a bit of a fall off 

 

UC
2024: 53,235 students

2023: 50,921 students

2022: 47,914 students 

2021: 46,710 students 

2020: 46,798 students 

2019: 46,388 students 

2018: 45,949 students

 

OSU

2024: 66,901 students

2023: 65,405 students

2022: 65,795 students 

2021: 67,772 students 

2020: 67,957 students 

2019: 68,262 students 

2018: 68,100 students

5 hours ago, Willo said:

It would be if what the CSU master plan had envisioned for the Wolstein Arena - a Partneship village - had a chance (to include adding a 22nd street cap over the hgihway. But given CSU's current finacial instability I assume their master plan will be revised further inward. Plus, their recent master plan has future student housing expanding again to the north between Chester and Payne and did not contemplate a southward expansion even when when they still had a rosey outlook and swung for the fences with their wish list.

As I recall, the CSU master plan was based on CSU growing to 20,000 students.  Instead, it looks like it's going to stabilize at around 12,000.   They'll need a new master plan.

^I think that points to a failure of CSU’s leadership, if anything. Case is growing, while CSU is not. And I hate that for CSU, as I went there as well.

1 hour ago, surfohio said:

 

At the very least they could share amenities. 

Years ago they began to recognize up to 2 years of Tri-C credits so not sure how much more juice can be squeezed there - unless CSU gets heavy into the trades/technical training cert side of things.  Mergers or closures happening everywhere - look at our local Notre Dame and the new merger between Ursuline and Gannon - that may be the route to follow in some form.

The change may be secular. In 1940, fewer than 5% of Americans had attended four years of college. By 1990, the percentage was above 20%. Now it's something like 38%. 

 

I'm all for education, but it's not obvious to me that 40%+ of Americans will be attending four years of college in the future. If that percentage drops down to just 30% (which, mind you, is still much higher than 1990), lots of schools are in for a world of hurt.

 

For all I know, college enrollment may increase once again in the next decade. But I personally would not bet on it.

4 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The change may be secular. In 1940, fewer than 5% of Americans had attended four years of college. By 1990, the percentage was above 20%. Now it's something like 38%. 

 

I'm all for education, but it's not obvious to me that 40%+ of Americans will be attending four years of college in the future. If that percentage drops down to just 30% (which, mind you, is still much higher than 1990), lots of schools are in for a world of hurt.

 

For all I know, college enrollment may increase once again in the next decade. But I personally would not bet on it.

That's part of it.  I think we'll see a correction in the percentage of kids going to college as the demand for skilled trades rises, along with the headwinds of higher college debt and non-college alternatives -- I'm thinking of software certifications as an example.

 

But there is a demographic shift as well -- fewer kids.  So all the colleges are seeing a coming decline in population after a peak in 2026.  Colleges have known about it for a while.

Quote

From the early 1970s until 2007, the number of annual births per 1,000 women ages 15 to 44 stayed between roughly 65 and 70. Starting in 2008, the ratio went down, down, down, to 56 in 2020, the lowest rate in American history. There were 4.3 million births in 2007; last year [2021], there were 3.7 million.

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/23428166/college-enrollment-population-education-crash

^ it doesn’t seem to be across the board though. i think many of the state u’s around ohio are doing well. bg alumni news is always noting to me that its bursting at it’s artificially limited seams. even an insanely expensive big private school like nyu seems to me to be doing better than ever, in part because a lot of overseas wealthy asians have taken to it. i dk if well run or other factors like foreigner enrollment can hold off the birth rate drop indefinitely?

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

^ it doesn’t seem to be across the board though. i think many of the state u’s around ohio are doing well. bg alumni news is always noting to me that its bursting at it’s artificially limited seams. even an insanely expensive big private school like nyu seems to me to be doing better than ever, in part because a lot of overseas wealthy asians have taken to it. i dk if well run or other factors like foreigner enrollment can hold off the birth rate drop indefinitely?

I think the big universities will continue to thrive (and their satellite campuses), but a lot of small-enrollment colleges will be going under in the next ten years.

Noticed this morning a new Dunkin Donuts has opened in The Edge at 18th & Euclid.   Should do well with CSU right there.

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

Noticed this morning a new Dunkin Donuts has opened in The Edge at 18th & Euclid.   Should do well with CSU right there.

But apparently the Arby's has closed.   Even the employees apparently had no warning.  

On 11/14/2024 at 3:08 PM, LlamaLawyer said:

The change may be secular. In 1940, fewer than 5% of Americans had attended four years of college. By 1990, the percentage was above 20%. Now it's something like 38%. 

 

I'm all for education, but it's not obvious to me that 40%+ of Americans will be attending four years of college in the future. If that percentage drops down to just 30% (which, mind you, is still much higher than 1990), lots of schools are in for a world of hurt.

 

For all I know, college enrollment may increase once again in the next decade. But I personally would not bet on it.

 

The feds subsidized it, more or less indiscriminately.   When you subsidize something, you get more of it.   And it gets more expensive.

38% going to 4yr colleges doesn’t sound right at all. it doesn’t fit with the normal curve. some shenanigans are going on if that is even close to true. or probably they meant all post hs education.

Juvenile Detention Center to be Demolished. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/former-cuyahoga-county-juvenile-justice-center-demolished-brownfield-highway-council-executive/95-abb50daf-6230-4704-af86-c7effadb0ebb

On 11/18/2024 at 1:22 PM, E Rocc said:

 

The feds subsidized it, more or less indiscriminately.   When you subsidize something, you get more of it.   And it gets more expensive.

That's why we have so much cheap ... corn syrup.....

40 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Juvenile Detention Center to be Demolished. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/former-cuyahoga-county-juvenile-justice-center-demolished-brownfield-highway-council-executive/95-abb50daf-6230-4704-af86-c7effadb0ebb

 

Here's the Cleveland.com story.   

 

Quite a sad article as it makes it sound like everyone is glad it will be gone and goes into detail about what an eyesore it is, as if it is a junkyard or something.  All to have more barren land and a wider bridge..? 

 

Such a cool structure that nobody seemed to be advocating for.    

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/clevelands-tudor-style-juvenile-court-building-faces-demolition.html