January 30, 20223 yr Sorry for the lack of advanced warning. I wasn't sure when I was going to be able to finish that article. BTW, never buy anything from Acme... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 30, 20223 yr The Luman leasing up that fast (especially in the pandemic) is great, great news. Now we anticipate Act Il. The article speculates on a location with the likelihood it will be on Chester, although building on Prospect may be in the running. As long as we're speculating here my preference is Prospect. Sure, Playhouse Square already owns the Chester site but that location seems to me to have very little to do with Playhouse Square. Even though it's only a block away it's the wrong block. The Prospect site on the other hand is visually connected to the Square. And even though the Square gets more than a million visitors a year it appears awfully quiet. Not much street life. A building on Chester isn't going to add to that. BUT a building on Prospect would lengthen the Square's footprint because you will be able to see it unlike a building on Chester. Right now Playhouse Square ends abruptly at Prospect. There is Playhouse Square and then there is...Siberia. If you build on Prospect you add another high rise and more street life. That life may even encourage a few more storefronts to open. Maybe the little park on Euclid actually gets some use. My amateur urban planner brain says building on Prospect gets you more bang for your buck than Chester.
January 30, 20223 yr Another thing to keep an eye on is the Wolstein Center. While it's getting even farther away from Playhouse Square, it is likely to become a housing site with a little bit of mixed-use mixed in. If WC is razed and redeveloped as a result of CSU's masterplanning effort, it will contribute to the vibrancy of Playhouse Square. But I haven't heard anything about Playhouse Square Foundation being directly involved in the decision-making about WC's future. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 30, 20223 yr Either of the surface lots on the south side of Prospect at 14th would be nice to get rid of, though they are kind of on the small side.
January 30, 20223 yr 9 minutes ago, KJP said: Another thing to keep an eye on is the Wolstein Center. While it's getting even farther away from Playhouse Square, it is likely to become a housing site with a little bit of mixed-use mixed in. If WC is razed and redeveloped as a result of CSU's masterplanning effort, it will contribute to the vibrancy of Playhouse Square. But I haven't heard anything about Playhouse Square Foundation being directly involved in the decision-making about WC's future. I think in many ways the vibrancy of Playhouse Square will be most directly effected by the amount of on campus housing CSU builds or encourages. College kids are always out on the weekend or eating out.
January 30, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said: Either of the surface lots on the south side of Prospect at 14th would be nice to get rid of, though they are kind of on the small side. Any of the sites in the article would be great, but for me these would absolutely be the game-changers in improving the overall feel and vibrancy of the area. I’d also challenge your comment that they are small. A quick eye-ball on GoogleMaps suggests to me that they’re bigger than either the Lumen or E13th foot print, plus they feel even larger due to their wide-open nature. They really are a sea of asphalt. My hovercraft is full of eels
January 30, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said: Either of the surface lots on the south side of Prospect at 14th would be nice to get rid of, though they are kind of on the small side. This is a case where size doesnt matter lol. A,surface lot is a,surface lot. The less the better
January 30, 20223 yr Yeah, the surface lot at the SW corner 14th and prospect would be the perfect spot imo. And would be an eastern anchor of Bolivar and all that’s about to happen on that street.
January 30, 20223 yr 14 minutes ago, marty15 said: Yeah, the surface lot at the SW corner 14th and prospect would be the perfect spot imo. And would be an eastern anchor of Bolivar and all that’s about to happen on that street. This would be my preferred location as well but what is/would be driving the Chester-13th location, as suggested in Ken's article, is the adjacent parking garage which would probably reduce development costs in comparison to other surface lots in the area.
January 30, 20223 yr I won't pooh-pooh a new tower in any PHSQ location. However, Prospect & 14th seems more desirable for the near-in view of Old Erie Street Cemetery; Playhouse Square; the skyline; the glide path to Hopkins from the East; the ballpark, and all the way out to Parma and Independence; plus the handiness of freeway access. IMO there's just so much more to be viewed and enjoyed from every direction at 14th & Prospect. Building here will also diminish the Siberia effect one can observe from beneath the chandelier. EDIT: After reading below I now rescind my idea, but only as I'd hate to support lining the pockets of the do-nothing Frangos family. Edited January 30, 20223 yr by ExPatClevGuy
January 30, 20223 yr Lou Frangos just sent me a message that he's heard nothing from PHSF about developing on their land. But he forwarded my article on LinkedIn to promote his land at East 14th and Prospect for sale or development. He has been promoting that site for development for a long time. Here's one of several renderings Frangos commissioned in 2015.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 30, 20223 yr ^Ah the Frangos family. They are in a neck and neck race with the Kassouff family when it comes to touting big shiny development projects and accomplishing next to nothing.
January 30, 20223 yr 41 minutes ago, KJP said: Lou Frangos just sent me a message that he's heard nothing from PHSF about developing on their land. But he forwarded my article on LinkedIn to promote his land at East 14th and Prospect for sale or development. He has been promoting that site for development for a long time. Here's one of several renderings Frangos commissioned in 2015.... LOL. You should charge him an advertising fee. Or at least get a slice of any sale. BTW - am I missing something, or does that fantasy-rendering involve demolishing Gray’s Armory?!? My hovercraft is full of eels
January 30, 20223 yr I like the Chester corner much better for a few reasons. First, isn't the whole idea that PHS is not in the the profit maximizing business? They are going to make at least a decent return on the Lumen, but when first proposed it was a bit of a gamble, right? I would rather they try to develop the less attractive lots then take the easier ones. Second, if Chester & e13th gets developed, it tightens the noose on the Greyhound station. Starting to develop the land around Greyhound has to help nudge forward the intermodal station with Amtrak. Personally I think Greyhound would make a great city target. Third, it's not the middle of nowhere. Its diagonal from Reserve Square, lined with storefronts that struggle because of low traffic. Allerton Apartments is right across the street and has modern renovated storefronts. It's less than 2 blocks from Masthead, Becky's, Hofbrau, and Moe's. All the same distance as Yours Truly. A new building here would help connect PHS to the 9-12 district.
January 30, 20223 yr I know that was a fantasy rendering above from Frangos - but wouldn't it be incredible to see a new neighborhood of high-rise residential buildings (Vancouver-style) eventually adjacent to Playhouse Square -possibly along the southeast side of Prospect..? With the Lumen beautifully completed and Act II becoming a likely possibility - we've got a start on just such a neighborhood. The Lumen has certainly changed the dynamic on the look/feel perception at Playhouse Square - and there's certainly reason to think Act II can make a comparable impact - whether its positioned on Chester or that southwest corner of 14th and Prospect, as mentioned. Given what we know about PHS's goal of more people in the area - I wouldn't be shocked to see a project of comparable size/height to the Lumen. Playhouse Square is such a cultural/entertainment jewel for Cleveland - one to be so proud of - and, of course, a great tourist attraction. It's really cool to see the success for its seminal Lumen project. The nation's second largest theatre district deserves to have an also-dynamic neighborhood thriving around it. I'm hoping that new developers are spurred on by the success that has occurred thus far and hopefully will again, soon, with Act II. (Good luck Mr. Frangos and @KJP if you should wind up with any advertising perks!)
January 30, 20223 yr Here’s a pitch! How about PHS builds Act II wherever they can most cost effectively—thereby setting them up nicely for Act III. 😉
January 30, 20223 yr You make some good points originaljbw. Building on Chester would enhance that neighborhood but that neighborhood is different than Playhouse Square. Even though it's just a block away Chester looks north as you said. It connects more with the Greyhound property and Perk Park/9-12. The reason l like a Prospect building is that would directly help Playhouse Square. And that's the asset l want to see developed. But it's all good. You'll probably get your wish before me lol.
January 30, 20223 yr I think the Chester site is the best option. Larger lot that will disappear, the area is dead right now but this is the EXACT project needed to jump start the area. If this leases well I'd imagine that you'll see other projects of various scales popping up. Chester needs more help than prospect in this situation. Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
January 31, 20223 yr agree any of these parking lot sites would be fine for act 2. given these choices, if i had to choose i would say chester by the bus station. just because i think those prospect lots will be developed eventually as the ballpark village comes along, whereas chester is good spot, but maybe a bit harder nut to crack. so a big non profit residential kickstart development could probably do the most good around there.
January 31, 20223 yr 11 hours ago, KJP said: Another thing to keep an eye on is the Wolstein Center. While it's getting even farther away from Playhouse Square, it is likely to become a housing site with a little bit of mixed-use mixed in. If WC is razed and redeveloped as a result of CSU's masterplanning effort, it will contribute to the vibrancy of Playhouse Square. But I haven't heard anything about Playhouse Square Foundation being directly involved in the decision-making about WC's future. It would really be amazing if all these neighborhoods could connect. So much dead space in between for years. I know it will/should happen someday...but to see it in our lifetimes would be so special.
January 31, 20223 yr 12 hours ago, mrnyc said: agree any of these parking lot sites would be fine for act 2. given these choices, if i had to choose i would say chester by the bus station. just because i think those prospect lots will be developed eventually as the ballpark village comes along, whereas chester is good spot, but maybe a bit harder nut to crack. so a big non profit residential kickstart development could probably do the most good around there. A pro soccer stadium replacing Krenzler field at CSU would certainly help!
January 31, 20223 yr The Soccer stadium if built, is not going anywhere near CSU. Will be south of the freeway off of Ontario
January 31, 20223 yr 4 minutes ago, zbaris87 said: The Soccer stadium if built, is not going anywhere near CSU. Will be south of the freeway off of Ontario jail
January 31, 20223 yr 13 minutes ago, zbaris87 said: The Soccer stadium if built, is not going anywhere near CSU. Will be south of the freeway off of Ontario Why does Cleveland need a soccer stadium?
January 31, 20223 yr 57 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: Why does Cleveland need a soccer stadium? I second that question
January 31, 20223 yr 13 minutes ago, B767PILOT said: I second that question For the MLS team that some on this forum seem to think we are bound to get. Getting back on topic, do we know if CSU and PHS have had talks re: the redevlopment of the Wolstein Center?
January 31, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, Htsguy said: jail I'm betting the jail lands across Broadway from the East 34th Rapid station. 1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said: Why does Cleveland need a soccer stadium? Because of the USL team Force. And if you want young people and immigrants to live in your town, you'd better have a pro soccer team for them to watch. Back on topic....someone reminded me this morning of the Bulkley Building that PHSF owns. It's nine stories tall, about 167,000 SF and it's pretty empty. It would make a great residential conversion..... https://www.playhousesquarerealestate.com/properties/bulkley-building/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 31, 20223 yr Article updated with a quote from PHSF...... On 1/29/2022 at 6:45 PM, KJP said: Playhouse Square to write Act II to The Lumen By Ken Prendergast / January 29, 2022 Talk about bad timing. Building tours for potential tenants of The Lumen — the largest new residential development in downtown Cleveland in 40 years — began in early March 2020. Less than two weeks later, the nation had gone into a virtual economic shutdown in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Two and a half months after that, protests and riots following the murder of George Floyd swept the nation and downtown Cleveland was not spared. MORE https://neo-trans.blog/2022/01/29/playhouse-square-to-write-act-ii-to-the-lumen/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 31, 20223 yr I'm thinking about that quote I just added to the article.... PHSF hired a brokerage firm to determine The Lumen's valuation. OK, brokerage firms do have appraisers. But why not just hire an appraiser? If you want to determine the value of a property AND sell it, you hire a brokerage firm. And is this a good time to refinance with interest rates going up? I'd love to hear from others in the biz what they think of that quote. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 31, 20223 yr Uh oh, I smell topic drift.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 31, 20223 yr The Bulkley building makes a lot of sense for a conversion, but it's not the tall glassy twin to the Lumen some here on UO would prefer. If my opinion mattered to PHSF, I'd tell them to buy the building on the northeast corner of 13th and Euclid and build a 30 story Lumen 2.0. This would be a perfect compliment to Act I in terms of location. The adjacent parking lot just north on 13th could be built up with a garage similar in scale to the Lumen. The building could shorter in height and incorporate the lot by the Union Club too. I'm not sure how parking would work for the Chester/13 site if shared with the garage. Most shows are during evening/weekend times when residents would also be home. I'd assume apartments would be built above parking? The sites south of Prospect seem more integrated into areas not directly associated with PHS, countering what I'm assuming is the Foundations goal of putting more people on the street outside their theaters.
January 31, 20223 yr I can't remember if this idea was invented here on UO or not but wasn't adding a significant amount of floors, for residences on top of the Cowell & Hubbard building a serious consideration by PHSF at one point?
January 31, 20223 yr I have a vague recollection of the Climaco law firm building new offices on top of Cowell and Hubbard. I think there might have even been renderings floating around. I cannot remember why that fell through.
January 31, 20223 yr 10 minutes ago, viscomi said: I can't remember if this idea was invented here on UO or not but wasn't adding a significant amount of floors, for residences on top of the Cowell & Hubbard building a serious consideration by PHSF at one point? I most likely know we talked about here at UO. KJP once mentioned some thing about Air Rights above the Cowell & Hubbard Building. I i recall he mentioned that because of the air rights issue they wont do anything about going vertical on the Cowell.
January 31, 20223 yr 51 minutes ago, simplythis said: I most likely know we talked about here at UO. KJP once mentioned some thing about Air Rights above the Cowell & Hubbard Building. I i recall he mentioned that because of the air rights issue they wont do anything about going vertical on the Cowell. You would know, you mentioned it 😂
February 1, 20223 yr 24 minutes ago, infrafreak said: You would know, you mentioned it 😂 Yes that would be nice to develop Cowell & Hubbard even if it would be for only 10-15 floors
February 1, 20223 yr 13 hours ago, simplythis said: Yes that would be nice to develop Cowell & Hubbard even if it would be for only 10-15 floors Agree. 10-15 would do great define the outdoor "room" of Euclid avenue there. Maybe PHSF can get an Act II and III going all at once.
February 1, 20223 yr In our little imaginary urban design world replacing the (very ugly) building on the northwest corner of 13th and Euclid makes perfect sense. Unfortunately if l remember correctly what's inside that building is quite valuable and may be hard to move. Isn't it filled with high tech servers and other internet/computer stuff? Someone younger and more tech savvy than me could enlighten us and explain how difficult (or not) it would be to relocate what's inside and replace that building with something that adds to the street.
February 1, 20223 yr 11 minutes ago, cadmen said: ...if l remember correctly what's inside that building is quite valuable and may be hard to move. Isn't it filled with high tech servers and other internet/computer stuff? Correct.
February 1, 20223 yr It wasn't always ugly. But I imagine the original façade was destroyed by the "modernization," and would be way too expensive to restore simply for aesthetics.
February 1, 20223 yr This was at one time the original Higbees! Sadly now there is nothing remaining of the original facade (unless it’s hidden under there somewhere). What was a beautiful block is now one of the ugliest, aside from the Union Club. How I wish someone would renovate the (current) Sterling Building… mostly because I have to look down at it from my windows haha
February 1, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, gruver said: It wasn't always ugly. But I imagine the original façade was destroyed by the "modernization," and would be way too expensive to restore simply for aesthetics. I'm an optimist, The Schofield and 75 Public Square, which both had awful facades, were both restored to former glory. So there is hope!
February 1, 20223 yr Assuming its present occupants move (big assumption) and there is interest in returning it to its original glory then the next question would be is that a facade attached to the old exterior or was the original exterior destroyed to make this new modernish one? Anybody know the answer?
February 1, 20223 yr ^ Go back a page and you’ll see a post from @mrclifton88that shows a glimpse behind the modern facade. It’s an admittedly small area, but it looks pretty-much destroyed. My hovercraft is full of eels
February 17, 20223 yr https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/playhouse-square-puts-lumen-apartment-tower-sale Awesome news here. Fingers crossed for a quick sale!
February 17, 20223 yr 33 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said: https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/playhouse-square-puts-lumen-apartment-tower-sale Awesome news here. Fingers crossed for a quick sale! @KJP strikes again before the big boys.
February 17, 20223 yr And the second big boy following KJP: Playhouse Square to put its downtown Cleveland luxury apartment building The Lumen up for sale Updated: Feb. 16, 2022, 8:07 p.m. | Published: Feb. 16, 2022, 6:05 p.m. By Eric Heisig, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio — Playhouse Square plans to list its downtown Cleveland luxury apartment high-rise, The Lumen, for sale, less than two years after its completion. The 34-story, 318-apartment building at Euclid Avenue and East 17th Street, across the street from three of the arts district’s venues, should hit the market “any day now,” Matthew Lawton, an executive managing director for the Jones Lang LaSalle Capital Markets brokerage firm marketing it, wrote in an email Wednesday. https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2022/02/playhouse-square-to-list-the-lumen-luxury-apartment-building-for-sale.html
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