Posted May 2, 200520 yr Same old on Vine St. By Kevin Osborne Post staff reporter More than three years after Cincinnati Mayor Charlie Luken promised to deliver "seismic changes" in revitalizing Vine Street through Over-the-Rhine, some residents say little has changed along the troubled corridor. With last month's conviction of LaShawn Pettus-Brown, a would-be developer who skipped town with $184,000 in taxpayer money that was supposed to renovate a theater on Vine, the city's progress there is again being thrust into the spotlight.
May 2, 200520 yr I feel the frustration. My car got hit by a flying 40 at the intersection of E. Clifton and Vine last saturday. Put a nice size dent on the door.
May 3, 200520 yr From the 5/3/05 Enquirer: New vision for old part of inner-city Over-the-Rhine promoted By Cliff Peale Enquirer staff writer Seeking to create a buzz in Over-the-Rhine that will attract visitors and investment, neighborhood groups and business leaders are planning a series of events for this summer. Starting in late May with a marketing plan conceived by the Over-the-Rhine Foundation, the effort will continue through June as more than 20 community groups sponsor a celebration of the 150th anniversary of Washington Park.
May 3, 200520 yr I wonder what will happen to the existing SCPA building once the new one is built. I thought I remember hearing somewhere that when CPS bought the building part of the contract was to keep it a school for a long period of time, even after SCPA decides to move out.
May 3, 200520 yr ^ :lol: (not at the denting incedent) I agree that shit isn't funny Kendall but when Jeff asked what a "Flying 40" was and Kevin posted a photo of a "40", I started chuckling too. That is terrible, I don't know how I would have handled a "flying 40" getting thrown at my car. Sorry to hear shit like that especially to local OTR residents like yourself.
May 13, 200520 yr A related story from the AP, 5/12/05: Cincinnati progress in reviving area of riots slower than hoped LISA CORNWELL Associated Press CINCINNATI - William Howell, standing in a fenced-in parking lot, points across the street to a small, boarded-up church in the neighborhood where riots erupted four years ago. "I'd like to buy that and start a neighborhood eatery, but I can't afford it without some help," said Howell, 50, who set up a car wash in the small lot. "It seems to be the big developers and business people who get the funding to do things. It's like they're trying to drive low-income folks out."
May 13, 200520 yr So what is the plan for Over The Rhine nowadays? Is it to remain a low income area, be gentrified or some sort of mix? Incidentally, I recently finished reading a book on the neighborhood, Changing Plans for Americans Cities, Cincinnati's Over-The-Rhine and Twentieth Century Urbanism, by Zane Miller and Bruce Tucker...the book ends in the 1980s, with an epilogue into the 1990s, before the riots. It seems the 1980s denoument was that OTR was going to stay a low-income housing area. There is alot of discussion about someone called Buddy Gray. Jim Tarbell also figures in the book (there is a pix of Tarbell that is quite a shock given his current look...in the book Tarbell sandals, vest, and a long thick beard).
May 13, 200520 yr Buddy Gray was a major advocate/defender of low-income housing in OTR. He operated the Drop Inn Center, until he was murdered by "a friend and tenant" on Nov. 11, 1996. http://www.citybeat.com/archives/1996/issue303/cover1.html ------------------ The natural habitat of this creature is streets, alleys, and stoops, not freshly-plastered suburban abodes:
May 13, 200520 yr Many people blame Buddy Gray for not allowing OTR to move forward, and for it remaining a recepticle of all of the city's downtrodden. I'm not a fan of that and I think there should be room for everyone, rich/middle income/poor. I'm not entirely sure that's possible, but relegating it to a low-rent slum status forever isn't good for the city and isn't good for the residents. Over-the-Rhine simply dies. Jeff, there will be somewhat of a plan (so they say) by 3CDC for the Washington Park area (search for the thread). There hasn't been much new recently. Of course, there's all of the other stuff that's being done on a piecemeal basis. I see the article as being rather fair, without being too positive or negative and without pointing any fingers. I'm also glad they didn't dwell on the riots. Those are over. Let's fix things now.
May 14, 200520 yr My car said he would appreciate it if the forty pics would stop. It brings back bad memories. :-P
May 14, 200520 yr Many people blame Buddy Gray for not allowing OTR to move forward, and for it remaining a recepticle of all of the city's downtrodden. I'm not a fan of that and I think there should be room for everyone, rich/middle income/poor. Reading the book I really respect Buddy Gray. I also think Buddy Gray was a realist. Poor people need somewhere to live, too, and I don't think anyone whos not poor want poor people in their neighborhood...which is why you see oppostiion to public housing and section 8A...NIMBYism would mean that the ideal of an economically integrated community...would never happen. This ideal of integration is also pretty contrary to over 100 years of urban growth in the US, where the pattern or track-record seems to be that cities sort themselves out by socioeconomic status and ethnicity. So, in the general scheme of things, Over-The-Rhine was mostly the neighborhood of the working class and poor, and pretty much that way since the 19th century, when it first developed. The place was (with some exceptions) and still is a lower income tenement district. But that might have changed w. gentrification pressures....a city was sorting itself out yet again by socioeconomic status and class.... Gray was confrontational becuase I think he correclty saw gentrification as a threat to the down-and-outers he served...if he wasn't that way the money and power in the city would steamroll him...
May 14, 200520 yr We need to look forward, but let's set the record straight... Buddy Gray was against employment and commerce in Over-the-Rhine. He wanted government subsidies so that his group of homeless men could wander the streets for perpetuity. The result was a dysfunctional social order that was augmented by slumlords such as Thomas Denhart, and by the institutionalization of poverty through government housing policies. That being said, I love Over-the-Rhine. Its streets and alleys create a unique sense of place and history that one cannot find throughout most of built America. My hope is that it becomes the cultural heart of the city once more.
May 14, 200520 yr I did not see much of a mention of the Gateway Condos on Vine and Central. This is a major project on Vine which hopefully will serve as a catylst for the rest of the st. That being said, Vine is a disgrace, that street has tremendous potential and it has been alowed to die.
May 14, 200520 yr I didn't know Tarbell was cabable of growing hair. I question the integrity of this book about OTR.
May 15, 200520 yr The police need to enforce the loitering laws on vine. Theres nothing like walking to krogers with a group of 10 young black men yelling racist comments at you while threatening your safety, I just want a gallon of milk leave me alone! :x
May 15, 200520 yr What happen with Vine becoming the main connector to Uptown and CBD? Isn't it still consider the most straight forward route. I would really like to see the Uptown Consortium utilized their new found wealth. http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130333 When I'm driving on Vine it really feels I'm running through a gantlet. A major streetscape project would be nice to see. I was hunting for an apartment building in OTC on Clay for a college friend and everything was pleasant until I turned on Vine to get to Central Pkwy. I never did find the building or Clay St for that matter.
May 15, 200520 yr I use Sycamore/Auburn most of the time, Clifton sometimes...I pretty much avoid Vine, because of the stories you hear of beer bottles being thrown and the occasional mini-riot...
May 15, 200520 yr I don't know if it is, but loitering on public property should not be illegal. I myself loitered with my friends and my dog out on the sidewalk yesterday. Of course, it is not good when so many people spend so much of their time just hanging around with nothing to do. Why aren't they doing something else, why do they have so much free time? Maybe it's because they don't have a job or are neglecting to fulfill their family obligations, or maybe they just don't have a home. Maybe they do have all of these things, but their job does not pay enough to afford the entertainment options that many others choose to while away their free time - TV, dining, shopping, movies, gym, etc. Finally, maybe they are gainfully employed, own their home, pay taxes, and give to charity but just like to spend their free time loitering, in which case there's nothing wrong with that decision. But for loitering by healthy, able-bodied yet non-productive people, the solution is not telling them to disperse, since this will not resolve the underlying problem. I don't know what the solution is, or whether it's something that can come from the outside community (us, the government). But I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the culture of employment. By which I mean, these loiterers did not grow up with the tools to get a decent job and keep it: education, "soft" skills (such as money management, professional demeanor, etc.), and an expectation that working to support yourself and your family is important. And without this culture, they got swept away by the streets, maybe getting a felony which would make it nearly impossible to get a decent job at all. Schools can help through better education and increasing graduation rates. Social service agencies can provide both hard and soft skills training, distribute parenting advice (good parenting skills are not in our genes, it's learned). But in the end, the solution has to be instituted from within the culture that produces the loiterers, nobody likes to be told how to live their life. But the way I see it, preventing non-violent loitering in public areas is not going to change Vine St.
May 15, 200520 yr To avoid Vine Street, which can be slow going in addition to the other problems observed in this thread, I recommend the following routes, in no particular order (because their usefulness depends on where you're headed): Sycamore St -> Auburn St. Reading -> Burnet, or just Reading Main St -> E. Clifton Central Pkwy -> Ravine
May 15, 200520 yr ^It's not loitering alone that is the problem. It's what these punks are doing while they loiter. They purposefully intimidate, utter racist insults, block public right of way without regret, deface property, and litter. You can loiter all the live long day, just don't make a nuisance of yourself. And, school or no school, parents or no parents, you know when you're being a nuisance. I agree that there are larger, underlying problems but that does not provide justification for them to behave like idiots. Also, I don't contradict that anyone has a right to loiter on a sidewalk but the state has a right to regulate those areas to make sure they're being used, first and foremost, for their primary purpose, namely clean, safe and efficient foot traffic.
May 15, 200520 yr ^Oh, I left out that the punks sell drugs and prostitutes. Let me know if I forgot anything else.
May 15, 200520 yr The problem with the "culture of employment" as you call it is, I think, poorly understood by most people. But it is very real and applies to everyone in some form or another. My family and those I grew up with were working class people. Therefore that type of career was what I was most familiar with and it is really no suprise that I make my living that way. Had my family & friends been stock brokers or business owners, I would probably been more likely to go in that direction. It's the same way - perhaps even more intensely so - for the poor. People don't just adopt lifestyles that they aren't familiar with. As for "non-violent" loitering, while I agree that it should by no means be illegal, the fact is that in a particular context it takes on a menacing nature that is definitely a detriment to neighborhood recovery. Harassment like what Maximillian described must NOT be tolerated.
May 15, 200520 yr Buddy Gray was against employment and commerce in Over-the-Rhine. He wanted government subsidies so that his group of homeless men could wander the streets for perpetuity. The result was a dysfunctional social order that was augmented by slumlords such as Thomas Denhart, and by the institutionalization of poverty through government housing policies. Denhart doesnt appear in the book, but, unlike Tarbell, Buddy Gray didnt make any distinctions between the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor... Presumably homelessness is still a problem in Over The Rhine. Maybe that would be a good use for the abandoned buildings there...rehabbed into homeless shelters or SRO units... As for "non-violent" loitering, while I agree that it should by no means be illegal, the fact is that in a particular context it takes on a menacing nature that is definitely a detriment to neighborhood recovery. Harassment like what Maximillian described must NOT be tolerated. ....or "flying 40s", or being yelled at like I was on Dayton Street, or feeling like running a guantlet when driving down Vine... Yet, the context here is a poverty neighborhood under threat...this is a "turf" issue and maybe whats going on in all these incidents are the locals protecting their turf, albeit in a crude & rude way.
May 15, 200520 yr Yet, the context here is a poverty neighborhood under threat...this is a "turf" issue and maybe whats going on in all these incidents are the locals protecting their turf, albeit in a crude & rude way. Excellent point, Jeff. As discussed in this thread - http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3452.0 - rich people use political means such as minimum lot size requirements to protect their turf from the poor. But poor people don't have the kind of political power or financial means to move out to greenfield development. Yet they still want to protect their neighborhood from rich people. Why shouldn't they, if rich people think it's OK to keep them out? So they resort to cruder means of defending their turf. I think rich people's defenses, like zoning, gated communities, profile policing, are more harmful to our community and society in the long run than a few frustrated, disempowered poor people shouting slurs.
May 16, 200520 yr so many people spend so much of their time just hanging around with nothing to do The guys I'm talking about are the drug dealers and their spotters. They have a job to attract buyers and look for the cops.
May 16, 200520 yr Yet, the context here is a poverty neighborhood under threat...this is a "turf" issue and maybe whats going on in all these incidents are the locals protecting their turf, albeit in a crude & rude way. That may be, and this may make me part of the problem, but fuck them. I don't harass folks who come to my neighborhood. I don't intimidate the innocent. I don't abuse people randomly because I think I own my street and their kind aren't welcome or something stupid like that. Fuck them, there's no excuse for it. (Er...that's directed entirely towards those who would abuse folks - please, Jeff, don't think it's directed at you or your comments in any way!)
May 16, 200520 yr Someone important like an exec will have to get shot before this gets significantly better. Everyone knows what needs to be done but most are to afraid to do it.
June 8, 200520 yr Some good news for Vine St. A couple of people have taken advantage of CDBG money under the Vine Street Facade Improvement Program to rehabilitate some facades on 4 properties. While this won't do much to change the environment there, those who subscribe at least somewhat to the "broken windows" theory will see it as an improvement. I certainly see it as an improvement. Just a note...the city used to use the program to directly contract to have work done on private properties. As of April, the city now provides the funding directly to the property owners, who then contract to have the work done. 1107-1111 Vine St. Robert J. Lenhart. Jr. $22,500 ($18K CDBG, $4.5K owner equity) Cosmetic repair to Vine St. side only, to be completed within 12 months (photo and rendering below) 1220 Vine St. Christopher J. Frutkin $30,000 (photo below) 1237 Vine St. Christopher J. Frutkin $60,000 (photo below)
June 8, 200520 yr >By which I mean, these loiterers did not grow up with the tools to get a decent job and keep it: education, "soft" skills (such as money management, professional demeanor, etc.), and an expectation that working to support yourself and your family is important. The uncivilized ghetto culture is in a lot of ways similar around the world, but the difference in Cincinnati and the rest of the U.S. is that decent jobs are almost always just a five minute walk from ghettos. Constant drug dealing goes on literally in the shadow of the Kroger building, the Children's Hospital towers, etc. >It's not loitering alone that is the problem. It's what these punks are doing while they loiter. They purposefully intimidate, utter racist insults, block public right of way without regret, deface property, and litter. What's amazing is that if you drive through there at 7am in a blizzard those dudes are still standing out on the sidewalks. The other thing is watching the guys who are like 12 and 13 walk around with their hand under their giant tshirt, feigning that they have their finger on the trigger of a 9mm.
March 19, 200619 yr bump. So what do folks think it will take to fix Vine St.? What kind of development will help bring it back to life - given that I doubt new condos across the street from Kroger would sell right now, unless someone is hitting the :drunk:
March 19, 200619 yr somewhere, without saying to much, lets just say it will take something very big. It will take something that is not just on Vine, but on the surrounding streets as well. It will take several major projects coming together and this could happen faster than you might think. Don't give up on Vine just yet. It is daunting, no doubt about it but take a look at all of the projects presented on the various threads, put them all together, and there is one more to add to the mix that you aren't hearing about yet, but a catalyst project that could really tie a lot of seaming spotted dev together.
March 19, 200619 yr bump. So what do folks think it will take to fix Vine St.? What kind of development will help bring it back to life - given that I doubt new condos across the street from Kroger would sell right now, unless someone is hitting the :drunk: It would require getting rid of the ghetto folks that already inhabit the area and bringing in a new population of higher class citizens that don't commit crime, work and make good money to support the store fronts without break ins and robberies occuring every other night driving businesses and people away, like the situation with Main. Unless we force these people out of the neighborhood or have 500 police patrolling the area, it's not going to work. Over the Rhine could not support itself just on tourism from other neighborhoods, it needs decent residents first.
March 20, 200619 yr It appears that Vine Street is a very important Cincinnati street. There appears to be a huge "fight" of sorts over protecting the interests of the less fortunate that primarily inhabit the area. Moreover, there is another side of the coin in which individuals feel that an economic rennaissance within Cincinnati could very well depend on this important stretch within the city. My question is this: Is there any other area within the city proper in which the present vision for Vine Street can be brought to fruition? Can the city leaders simply use eminent domain and get this whole tug-o-war over with so possible development can go forth? In Atlanta, the notorious "Bankhead Highway" (now known as Donald Lee Hollowell Parkway) is in the cusp of revitalization. The city put out bids for the redevelopment of this crime-infested, drug-infested, poverty-stricken area. After the proposals came in, a developer was chosen, and the vision for the area is currently being implemented. All of this wrestling, going back and forth, and around and around in circles is merely leaving Vine Street to rot. If this street is so important to the overall socio-economic health of the city proper, then "get'r done." Mixed-income housing, a mixture of public and private businesses, and a diverse populace will make the area eclectic and quite interesting. The fairness issue regarding the current inhabitants can only be discussed and addressed to a reasonable, sane extent. You can only defend the plight of the poor to a point before you have to bring it full cirle and place the responsibility squarely at their feet. There are a lot of housing programs available to the poor and working poor. However, it does not make economic sense to revitalize an entire area then turn around and re-populate it with individuals that cannot ensure a return on your investment. We must stop giving handouts to the poor when it is to the detriment of the greater good. If development will help the area and a limited amount of poor will be able to reside in that area, then so be it. A city with a dwindling tax base cannot reasonably and responsibly address crime, poverty, and blight. It is time for society to stop enabling those adults who have made poor choices as well as continue to make poor choices. I don't think that the majority of people getting displaced by urban renewal projects are a victim of circumstance or greedy developers. All business must look at the bottom line--even public businesses. A good number of our "less fortunate" have a diagnosis of extreme entitlement syndrome. Even the Bible teaches us that "He who does not work shall not eat." There is an interest and a market for living in and around Vine Street from what I have gathered from this forum as well as talked to people from Cincinnati. Yet, crime, fear, and discrimination are working together to keep the area socially and economically depressed. I would like to see the debate over apparent "ownership" and "entitlement" of an obviously distressed urban area simply go away. Give the area two strong legs to stand on by welcoming economic and social diversity. Stop playing politics in a city that really can't afford it at this time.
March 20, 200619 yr My question is this: Is there any other area within the city proper in which the present vision for Vine Street can be brought to fruition? Yes, and the neighborhood is called Northside. It is an area of town that is still crime ridden (not as bad as otr/west end) but it has a lot of dedicated people that don't mind taking matters into their own hands for the good of the neighborhood. Can the city leaders simply use eminent domain and get this whole tug-o-war over with so possible development can go forth? It doesn't appear as if OTR is the city's main priority. We would be fools to sit around and wait for the city to do something about OTR. There's a huge difference between Cincinnati and Atlanta. Atlanta will see much more change in the next few years than Cincinnati If this street is so important to the overall socio-economic health of the city proper, then "get'r done." Mixed-income housing, a mixture of public and private businesses, and a diverse populace will make the area eclectic and quite interesting. The fairness issue regarding the current inhabitants can only be discussed and addressed to a reasonable, sane extent. You can only defend the plight of the poor to a point before you have to bring it full cirle and place the responsibility squarely at their feet. There are a lot of housing programs available to the poor and working poor. However, it does not make economic sense to revitalize an entire area then turn around and re-populate it with individuals that cannot ensure a return on your investment. We must stop giving handouts to the poor when it is to the detriment of the greater good. If development will help the area and a limited amount of poor will be able to reside in that area, then so be it. A city with a dwindling tax base cannot reasonably and responsibly address crime, poverty, and blight. It is time for society to stop enabling those adults who have made poor choices as well as continue to make poor choices. I don't think that the majority of people getting displaced by urban renewal projects are a victim of circumstance or greedy developers. All business must look at the bottom line--even public businesses. A good number of our "less fortunate" have a diagnosis of extreme entitlement syndrome. Even the Bible teaches us that "He who does not work shall not eat." There is an interest and a market for living in and around Vine Street from what I have gathered from this forum as well as talked to people from Cincinnati. Yet, crime, fear, and discrimination are working together to keep the area socially and economically depressed. I would like to see the debate over apparent "ownership" and "entitlement" of an obviously distressed urban area simply go away. Give the area two strong legs to stand on by welcoming economic and social diversity. Stop playing politics in a city that really can't afford it at this time. To be quite honest, I could give a sh*t less about kicking current residents out of the neighborhood. I don't see anything wrong with making the Vine Street corridor better. In fact, if I lived in that area, I would want to see it do better for my own benefit. Any decent person living in OTR would still be able to afford staying in the area even after property value goes up. Im sorry but I have zero empathy for people that don't work, or acquire money in an illicit manner. I don't care what their environment is, or what their childhood was like. You CAN turn your life around and get out, if that's what you want. I think changing OTR is going to be a lot more difficult than people think but I would never put down the idea. I personally don't think a "diverse" populace in OTR wouldn't work though. Not in OTR. Northside, it is a lot more likely. With crime in OTR being as bad as it is, even a "diverse" or "eclectic" politically correct mix of people could easily result in the neighborhood being still too bad to succeed. It's also landlocked by bad neighborhoods to the north and west so I have no doubt crime would still be a big issue. If OTR changes, it will not be over night. It would take MANY MANY years but I believe it's possible and when I'm out of college with a few extra bucks in my pocket, I still plan on investing in the neighborhood, for whatever it's worth.
March 20, 200619 yr Thanks for your reply (and honesty). It will certainly be the area's loss (not that all of the citizens within this area are to blame for its plight--there's simply a sub-culture element that possess a socially-deviant mentality that has virtually crippled the area economically). From what you stated, the area is at the mercy of these deeply-rooted social ills that appear almost insurmountable. I plan to visit Cincinnati in the coming weeks so that I can physically view and photograph this area up close and personal. My hope is to capture the good and the indifferent within the city.
March 20, 200619 yr several in these new Gateway condos (across from Kroger bldg) are presold - the rest are reasonable $130K-$200K? (compared to those in the CBD), of course they are the first block into Over The Rhine, but lots happening around them, new American Building condos, new Cincinnati Art Academy and rehabs across the street. But still a dicely area from time to time.
March 20, 200619 yr several in these new Gateway condos (across from Kroger bldg) are presold - the rest are reasonable $130K-$200K? (compared to those in the CBD), of course they are the first block into Over The Rhine, but lots happening around them, new American Building condos, new Cincinnati Art Academy and rehabs across the street. But still a dicely area from time to time. Do the people that live in these nice new condos shop at their local vine street kroger, and pump money into other businesses on their corridor?
March 20, 200619 yr I happen to work for Kroger so your 'signature' line has always made me laugh. That store is the smallest Kroger in Cincinnati, and probably nearly the entire chain. My answer to your question is probably 'no'. I would guess that for most of their serious shopping, they will probably drive to (hopefully) the Kroger up near UC or some other store. But maybe, also hopefully, folks in the Gateway, The American Building and all of the newer lofts will find their way up to the OTR store for a few quick essentials, and then from there?? I have seen several new home interiors and furniture stores opening, right in that area, so maybe a small ember is glowing....
March 20, 200619 yr Do the people that live in these nice new condos shop at their local vine street Kroger, and pump money into other businesses on their corridor? Not yet, but most of the businesses within the corridor are not catering to the new residents, but rather existing ones. As more projects come on line the climate will change. Gateway and the American are not large enough to effectively change the entire street. A large scale residential project located around Vine St. is what is needed. The demographics must change, and 20 Gateway condos, although a start, is not enough. Once Vine begins to change and becomes safer, it will have a snowball effect. People from CBD and the hillsides will begin to come to the street and spend their money. But a large scale, catalyst project needs to get the ball rolling. A large, high profile investment around Vine St. could make all the difference, things may begin to change even before the groundbreaking.
March 20, 200619 yr Michael (anyone) - what do you know about this apparently extensive rehab of the "Bank Cafe" building? Is this another domino falling as a result of the American Building, Gateway, Art Academy, etc. in this immediate area? I also noticed that the quick stop joint in the first floor of the apt. bldg on the NWC of 12th & Vine is now closed. To me, that's a good thing. I wonder where a 'large scale residential project' would fit on Vine or nearby? Do you mean major rework on those (many) substantial apts. up Vine there, or something different? New construction? I am not very knowledgeable in this but it seems to me that good things are starting to "wick" their way up and into OTR? thanks
March 20, 200619 yr That is 3CDC. Their website says that the Bank Cafe is being renovated into apartments, and that the NW cor of 12th and Vine is condos. They also have some properties on Republic Street that are part of this project. I hope they are also considering first floor retail for the Vine Street addresses.
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