This building: http://bit.ly/g9GJvV

 

These buildings on the south side of Colerain are being demolished: http://bit.ly/hQPNn9

The two buildings next to Pomodori Pizza on McMillan in Clifton Heights started to come down yesterday.  I watched the roof of the building on the right disappear at about 11am yesterday.

 

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=moerlein+and+mcmilan+cincinnati&layer=c&sll=39.127691,-84.517117&cbp=13,208.04,,0,-9.9&cbll=39.127635,-84.51629&hl=en&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=W+McMillan+St+%26+Moerlein+Ave,+Cincinnati,+Hamilton,+Ohio+45219&ll=39.127697,-84.517168&spn=0.004503,0.011544&z=17&panoid=BYG7a-7XzqhHnsN8mqdOAg

Yeah that's the location of the new Adriatico's pizza.  Those buildings had major issues due to hazardous materials left over from when it was a dry cleaner.  That's why it took decades for someone to do something with them. 

Cincinnati May Lose 11 Victorians

By Gwendolyn Purdom | Online Only | Mar. 30, 2011

 

Eleven historic Victorian houses in Cincinnati's Corryville neighborhood will be demolished soon unless preservation groups can relocate the structures. The houses, just east of the University of Cincinnati, are set to be razed to make room for a 72-unit student housing complex.

 

The block of intricate High Victorians, Italianates, and rowhouses dates to the 1870s, when the advent of mass transit allowed working- and middle-class residents, many of them German immigrants, to move to the hilltops surrounding downtown.

 

http://www.preservationnation.org/magazine/2011/story-of-the-day/cincinnati-may-lose-11.html

It doesn't have to be "mansion grade housing" the example I provided earlier in this thread was from a student housing area in Chicago called University Village.  They found a way to have good design and be economical.  I think a big part of it is using Cinder blocks with a brick facade.  The Cinder blocks are cheap but give the house a far more substantial look.  As they are not the facade they are hidden from view.  In Chicago, I feel they have a lot of good tricks for making cheap look good - Uptown would do wonders if they would study how Chicago developers do it.

 

University Village is NOT an example you want to use.  That is the old Maxwell St neighborhood.  The city and the university used the university's special abilities for land acquisition to threaten eminent domain and get the landowners to sell their properties one by one.  Then they tore down the buildings they acquired.  When there were only a few dozen buildings left large protests were mounted against destroying Chicago's version of an Ellis Island and the birthplace of  electric blues, where millions of immigrants bought the items they needed at a massive outdoor street market.  The place had a huge significance in black and jewish history.

After the university acquired the land they sold it, cheaply, to politically connected developer friends of Daley, who built the current buildings and made a mockery of preservation by preserving a few facades of the old buildings and rearranging them on one block in front of bigger buildings.  Now the whole neighborhood is gone.  One can see before and after pictures of the area here:

 

http://www.gapersblock.com/detour/photo/12102004/maxwell.php

 

The episode is one of the most shameful examples of the destruction of a poor neighborhood for the benefit of corrupt politicians and their friends.  The new development had to include low income housing, but even that politically correct gesture was destroyed as those "low income" (not really) people just sold their condos.  How to displace the poor and leave nothing of value to your children 101.  The extent of this corruption is monumental even by Chicago's standards.

 

Look at old pictures of the intersection of 12th (now Roosevelt) and Halsted, or 14th and Halsted, and then tell me this is an "economical" and "good design."  Used to be an incredibly dense area, and organically built by the ancestors of those who lived there.

728 W. 14th Place

 

One of my friends used to live in that new infill building in Chicago.  I had no idea what kind of neighborhood it used to be.

 

 

Also, the new Adriatico's is hoping to be in operation by August, right before school starts.  It will have seating for 50, a full bar, and for the first time will have fryers so there will be chicken wings and all that.  It will be a lot different from the current set-up, although the antique gas ovens will be making the move and there won't be any changes to the pizza. 

Nice! As much as I love Adriatico's (IMO, best pizza in town), they only do delivery/take-out so I tend not to go there as often.

A sit-down Adriatico's doesn't sound very pleasant, but I agree, their pizza is surprizingly good.

The heart burn after Adriatico's w/ Peppers and Sausage is to die for (or of depending).

Chain pizza places do not make their own dough or use raw meat and speed cook pizzas on conveyor belts.  I took photos in a Domino's about 7 years ago and was shocked to see how unglamorous the chain pizza world was.  Their ovens work on 6-minute cycles, with pizzas going through twice and other items going through once.  So everything is formulated around that temperature and cook cycle.  All of the pizza doughs come packaged in a box.  They're just a frozen disk that you throw the sauce, cheese, and toppings on. 

 

But homemade dough does not put a pizza place over the top by itself.  Adriatico's is one of the only places around that makes its own dough *and* sauce *and* raw meat *and* uses antique gas ovens.  So it's like anything else where it's the combination of features that adds up to the big difference.  It's "New York" style pizza because only in New York and near areas like UC do you have the volume of sales that can justify running those expensive ovens.  It's like anything else where a slow-cooked item usually tastes better than one on high heat. 

University Village is NOT an example you want to use.  That is the old Maxwell St neighborhood.  The city and the university used the university's special abilities for land acquisition to threaten eminent domain and get the landowners to sell their properties one by one.  Then they tore down the buildings they acquired.  When there were only a few dozen buildings left large protests were mounted against destroying Chicago's version of an Ellis Island and the birthplace of  electric blues, where millions of immigrants bought the items they needed at a massive outdoor street market.  The place had a huge significance in black and jewish history.

After the university acquired the land they sold it, cheaply, to politically connected developer friends of Daley, who built the current buildings and made a mockery of preservation by preserving a few facades of the old buildings and rearranging them on one block in front of bigger buildings.  Now the whole neighborhood is gone.  One can see before and after pictures of the area here:

 

I want to make it VERY CLEAR, I was not condoning the method that the University Village neighborhood was torn down in Chicago as an example for Cincinnati to follow at all.  However, given the massive amount of money and power in Uptown that is supportive of a flawed urban renewal plan, I figured I would at least suggest that if they aren't going to save the area (which would be ideal) the least they could do is make the infill much better quality.  It makes me sick every time I see a pseudo-suburban apartment building replace elegant Victorians in Cincinnati.  I basically was stating: stop lowering the bar. Stop building this (which makes the stuff that was built in University village look downright high quality):

 

^ Ew.

Apparently this block on McMillian is coming down:

 

 

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/walnut-hills-targets-casino-employees-for-new-housing-

Wait?  One of those buildings is already gone?  I missed that.

Also two of the homes on Euclid were torn down on Wednesday.

 

 

Ridiculous.  This city needs major preservation reform. 

Wow, I can't believe the buildings in Walnut Hills are being torn down.  Some of the buildings in that stretch of McMillan are beautiful, but there are many different heights and styles which make it feel like less of a cohesive district.  If, and I'm not saying this is likely, the new infill can be extremely high quality, maybe this could help rejuvenate Walnut Hills.

Wow, I can't believe the buildings in Walnut Hills are being torn down.  Some of the buildings in that stretch of McMillan are beautiful, but there are many different heights and styles which make it feel like less of a cohesive district.  If, and I'm not saying this is likely, the new infill can be extremely high quality, maybe this could help rejuvenate Walnut Hills.

 

Not likely. The new housing is entirely speculative and is specifically aimed and marketed at Casino employees who typically do not earn a lot of money. (unlike the owners who make millions) almost a re-hash of "if we build it, they will come". The Cincinnati Preservation Association is suggesting to the developers to concentrate new construction on vacant lots but as noted, already an 1880's multi-story commercial building (with a neat Victorian corner entry supported by a column) has come down. Developers also want to change this stretch of McMillan from a one-way back to a two-way thoroughfare. I have yet to see any conceptual drawings of the proposed new housing so no telling at this time whether it will be esthetically compatible with the historic streetscape or not. Of course, if the historic streetscape disappears entirely, I suppose compatibility is a moot point.

That corner building (with the advertisement) was torn down a few months ago. It had some spalling brick issues that began a few months before that, but was in otherwise fair condition. The building was salvageable - and I've seen buildings in OTR in far worse condition being rehabilitated.

I doubt that the new construction will be of any good quality. I'm betting some cheap, vinyl-clad infill project not much better than McMillan Manor will be built.

 

It seems as though they torn down the best buildings first. The rest of them on that block don't appear to be that significant. Too bad the old guard of Walnut Hills thinks that the best way to rejuvinate the neighborhood is to tear down its historic fabric.

^ Is anyone aware of preservation rules in other cities that prevent tearing down of these buildings for speculative construction??  I highly doubt any construction will start at this site in the next two years.  Tearing a building down does NOT take that long.  Why can't we wait till they sign off on a site, begin planning construction, and THEN tear a building down (while I'm still against that... at least it doesn't just increase our empty lots).

 

 

All of the Victorians are fenced off on Euclid and will probably be torn down this week. 

^ so what can we do to make sure this never happens again? What specifically needs to change at city hall.

Well there's hardly anything else left in Corryville worth raising a stink over, so I don't know.  I'm just amazed that will all of the junky housing in Corryville, they choose THAT block, but then again maybe that's the strategy -- if there is literally nothing worth saving in Corryville, then large-scale demos can begin. 

Well there's hardly anything else left in Corryville worth raising a stink over, so I don't know.  I'm just amazed that will all of the junky housing in Corryville, they choose THAT block, but then again maybe that's the strategy -- if there is literally nothing worth saving in Corryville, then large-scale demos can begin.

 

It would not surprise me if that is the strategy. You may remember, but several years ago I predicted that Corryville will at some future date be completely rebuilt with midrise structures similar is size/scale to Stetson Square, the new hotel at Vine and MLK, and the new medical office building near Mecklenburg Gardens.

This has been going on for decades in Corryville. I have talked with old timers who recall fights to save houses when Sander Hall was built!  ...also when Proctor Hall was built, and when Jefferson Avenue was widened. Many houses were demolished in the 60s, 70s 80s and 90s, and it continues year after year until there is no community left.  It just shows how dangerous it is to own residential property so near large institutions like a hospital or a university.

Ok-- so what do we do--  Obviously protests aren't enough-  Some law has to change.  Does anyone know what other cities do??

While the architectural quality of the new construction leaves much to be desired, this is still an example of urban densification.  That's generally a good thing.  Increasing density with high quality buildings and retaining the best historic properties is of course the best situation, but those goals are rarely in alignment with one another. 

It's not just in Corryville and Walnut Hills...on the southern boundry of Avondale on Erkenbrecher Avenue, is a two block row of towered brick Queen Anne style mansions (200-300 blocks) just opposite Children's Hospital. They are among the finest of their kind in the City but their survival is highly unlikely. Children's Hospital has already obliterated most of the old historic neighborhood and there's nothing to indicate the expansion is finished. The South Fairmount, Lick Run MSD project is poised to take out blocks of historic housing in the 1800, 1700, and 1600 blocks of Westwood Avenue in South Fairmount. The former Vitt & Stermer Fairmount Funeral home at 1824 Westwood is an impressive structure with fine original stained glass in the former chapel area. It was likely designed c. 1908 by one of Cincinnati's leading architects. This is not shaping up to be a good year for Cincinnati's historic building and housing stock.

I remember reading a neighborhood plan for Corryville from early in the decade and this plan for the neighborhood was pretty much laid out in black and white. The shrinking of the hospitals in the 90s kickstarted the changes as the neighborhood dramatically declined in class and educational attainment.

 

I don't understand the angst about Corryville. The die was cast a long time ago. The powers that be see Reading Road as the defendable corridor that they can rebuild to service the hospitals and the university.

 

I'd focus on Avondale, North Avondale, Bond Hill, and the nicest parts of the West side.

Agreed. Corryville is pretty much toast now with the best 19th century architecture in the neighborhood rapidly coming down. Bond Hill's prospects for improvement might be a stretch but certainly Avondale (including the north end) and West Side (as in the West End along Dayton St.) have potential for preservation and improvement.

It's still a shame. A lot of other cities stopped doing this kind of wholesale demolition in the '70s.

It's still a shame. A lot of other cities stopped doing this kind of wholesale demolition in the '70s.

 

This is nothing like the wholesale demolition that took place in the '70s. This is a piecemeal approach that will result in the rebuilding and densification of an urban neighborhood. The events that took place in the '70s truly clear cut entire urban neighborhoods upfront and then lessened the density of the neighborhood afterward in an attempt to cleanse it of its urban ills. Furthermore, I would contend that this is still quite regular in virtually every major city in America today.

I cringe every time I hear or read someone using the term "right-sizing" to justify wholesale demolitions that erase neighborhoods. Cincinnati is by no means the worst in doing away old houses but this year seems to be especially bad and it is spread out over many parts of the city. The biggest project, the Lick Run-South Fairmount MSD sewer/stormwater project is poised to take out several blocks (1800, 1700, and 1600) of Westwood Avenue and there are some impressive homes and 1880's commerical buildings in the path. Neighborhood leaders have signed off on them being bulldozed. Salvagers will talk about the bonanza from this area for a long time-it's ten times the number of the losses in Corryville. The 1700 block of Westwood alone has FOUR pages of property lisitings with the City Auditor. Anyhow, building attrition due to redevelopment is the most difficult to prevent or stop.

Cities are living organisms. There is a cycle of life and death. Can death come to quickly and in the wrong places? Sure, but old isn't necessarily better than new and vice versa.

Cities are living organisms. There is a cycle of life and death. Can death come to quickly and in the wrong places? Sure, but old isn't necessarily better than new and vice versa.

 

When they start building contemporary structures with the quality of 19th century structures, I'll totally agree. Today's stuff can't last for over 100 years.

I cringe every time I hear or read someone using the term "right-sizing" to justify wholesale demolitions that erase neighborhoods. Cincinnati is by no means the worst in doing away old houses but this year seems to be especially bad and it is spread out over many parts of the city. The biggest project, the Lick Run-South Fairmount MSD sewer/stormwater project is poised to take out several blocks (1800, 1700, and 1600) of Westwood Avenue and there are some impressive homes and 1880's commerical buildings in the path. Neighborhood leaders have signed off on them being bulldozed. Salvagers will talk about the bonanza from this area for a long time-it's ten times the number of the losses in Corryville. The 1700 block of Westwood alone has FOUR pages of property lisitings with the City Auditor. Anyhow, building attrition due to redevelopment is the most difficult to prevent or stop.

 

Are these the houses in between Queen City Avenue and Westwood Avenue? There have been problems with these relatively low-lying properties for years - what will be replacing the properties afterwards - park space?

^ regarding that same area of houses:

 

http://www.urbancincy.com/2011/02/122m-urban-stream-reclamation-project-includes-potentially-huge-impacts/

Here are five "concept" scenarios of the area post-project: http://www.projectgroundwork.org/lickrun/watershed/concepts.htm  none of them include preservation or rehabilitation of the dozens of historic buildings and homes in the project's pathway. Worth noting is that the old Lick Run creek which ran through the area and caused frequent flooding was later channelled through a 19 ft. in diameter pipe somehow routed underground without disturbing the buildings. The problem requiring the new project is that sewer water is/was mixed in with storm water drainage-billions of gallons of storm water runoff that has to be processed as sewer water as required by the EPA.  The new water quality improvement project separates these two water sources and puts the storm drain runoff into a new creek channel that remains to be built. Some new development is expected along the channel. However, South Fairmount neighborhood leaders actually wanted the dozens of old buildings and homes gone as the area has the highest Sec. 8 renter percentages in the city. This is an example of "demographic control" done with a bulldozer blade... Not the best way to "gentrify" an area, in my opinion.

Just heard tonight at Corryville Community Council, Dan Shimberg , from uptown properties would like to demolish Shiel Elementary School. I hate to see any historic public school buildings demolished. He wants the whole block gone..HELP!

 

Is this the school on Short Vine across from the fire station?  For many years I've thought that school was sitting on a piece of property that is simply too valuable. 

 

Also, I saw some suits conversing in front of the dreadful Section 8 monstrosity on the 2700 block of Euclid (backs up to Short Vine).  That is the #1 problem building in the area.

Is this the school on Short Vine across from the fire station?  For many years I've thought that school was sitting on a piece of property that is simply too valuable. 

 

Also, I saw some suits conversing in front of the dreadful Section 8 monstrosity on the 2700 block of Euclid (backs up to Short Vine).  That is the #1 problem building in the area.

 

Uptown Properties, a major redevelopment and rental/leasing firm, recently was in the preservation spotlight for their demolition of historic homes on Euclid Avenue in Corryville. Since Uptown appears to have the total support of the Corryville Community council, whatever they want to purchase and then demolish for constructing more apartments will apparently be rubber-stamped and considered a done deal. Corryville apparently does not want to be known for historic architecture, but as a large apartment community serving the housing needs of nearby UC students. It also appears the Community Council includes developers as members so not surprisingly redevelopment projects receive a sympathic reception. While I think Corryville did have some outstanding historic architecture, if everyone in the decision-making process is on-board with it being replaced with apartments, then my opinion is worth nothing.

Is this the school on Short Vine across from the fire station?  For many years I've thought that school was sitting on a piece of property that is simply too valuable. 

 

Also, I saw some suits conversing in front of the dreadful Section 8 monstrosity on the 2700 block of Euclid (backs up to Short Vine).  That is the #1 problem building in the area.

 

Uptown Properties, a major redevelopment and rental/leasing firm, recently was in the preservation spotlight for their demolition of historic homes on Euclid Avenue in Corryville. Since Uptown appears to have the total support of the Corryville Community council, whatever they want to purchase and then demolish for constructing more apartments will apparently be rubber-stamped and considered a done deal. Corryville apparently does not want to be known for historic architecture, but as a large apartment community serving the housing needs of nearby UC students. It also appears the Community Council includes developers as members so not surprisingly redevelopment projects receive a sympathic reception. While I think Corryville did have some outstanding historic architecture, if everyone in the decision-making process is on-board with it being replaced with apartments, then my opinion is worth nothing.

 

It's really depressing-  Who owns that building currently?  It's really gorgeous.  I'm so sickened by the idiocy of the members of the Corryville community council and local corryville leaders.  really disheartening to see them destroying so many great properties.

just heard tonight at Corryville Community Council, Dan Shimberg , from uptown properties would like to demolish Shiel Elementary School. I hate to see any historic public school buildings demolished. He wants the whole block gone..HELP!

 

I'd like to know how these meetings go?  Why is it that Corryville is so entirely in support of destroying itself?

 

Also, because its an old school did anyone suggest adaptive reuse?  I mean a school wouldn't be too bad a thing to convert into student apartments.

 

Finally for anyone who is concerned about what's going on here, whether in Corryville or not, please attend the community council meetings, which are 2nd Tuesday of every month at 6 pm.

 

Also please contact the Cincinnati Preservation Association and let them know that this is going to happen and express your concern: [email protected]

 

Just heard tonight at Corryville Community Council, Dan Shimberg , from uptown properties would like to demolish Shiel Elementary School. I hate to see any historic public school buildings demolished. He wants the whole block gone..HELP!

 

 

It seems like it'd be cheaper to convert that school into loft apartments of some type, sort of like the Emery Building.  I think if that were done, and infill were built in the playground behind it'd make for a much nicer block.  I don't know why Uptown's business model is so one dimensional.

 

 

I don't know why Uptown's business model is so one dimensional.

That's an easy one to answer-because the performance bar set for them is very low-basically, if no demands are placed on the kind and quality of what is proposed to be built, then anything meeting the minimum building code requirements is acceptable. Since profits drive business decisions, the quickest and cheapest path to construction is the easy choice-no demands for adaptive re-use or conversions of existing buildings have been voiced so just continue to knock down the old and build new. The (re)developers probably do not live anywhere near Corryville themselves so if it becomes nothing but block after block of early 21st century generic student housing, it's not their problem-besides, those leaders in the decision making process for Corryville like what they are doing, so why do anything different or more challenging? From a historic preservation perspective, Corryville is "toast" and anything historic being maintained there will fit into the miracle category. Unless you have a personal financial stake in the neighborhood, all the good intentions in the world are all for naught-you are not a direct stakeholder and investor. Hindsight might prove the development changes to be unwise in retrospect but it will never bring back any of the demolished historic structures. To imagine the architecturally generic student housing might someday be considered "historic" in its own right and worth saving would cause even the developers to have a good laugh.  This planned-obsolescence-built student housing will all be gone itself in 30-40 years (unless extensively renovated) and in turn replaced by something else. They do not build ordinary buildings and houses to last a century today as they did in the 1800's. Too costly and labor intensive.

I think the real question that should be posed is this: was there a cost-benefit analysis posed on adaptive reuse versus demolition?  Demolishing the school is going to be real expensive.  I've also gotten word that there is a lot of asbestos on site, which is something that will have to removed demolition or no demolitions.

I think the real question that should be posed is this: was there a cost-benefit analysis posed on adaptive reuse versus demolition?  Demolishing the school is going to be real expensive.  I've also gotten word that there is a lot of asbestos on site, which is something that will have to removed demolition or no demolitions.

 

Neil,

 

Most likely there is a T.I.F. District benefit provided to developers for new development in this area. I wouldn't be at the least surprised to learn some federal EPA "brownfields" clean up money would be forthcoming as well for asbestos abatement-doubtful any of these hazards are going to cost the developer a penny more to build here than building in another location. As for costs vs. benefits analysis, you're kidding, right? The developers have their spreadsheets and I seriously doubt there's any such analysis-their basic business model is simple but profitable and is based on past success. Corryville exists as a developer's oyster with its pearls waiting to be plucked-any effective oposition to additional housing development is minimal and comes mostly from outsiders. The transient students who are renters really don't have a voice and most are more concerned about finding affordable housing near campus than involving themselves in controversies about historic preservation in the neighborhood.

 

My only concern beyond the apparently unstoppable re-development is one about increased crime because concentrating large number of students in a dense area increases opportunities for criminals to do their work. And heaven forbid, if the entire neighborhood becomes transformed into student housing and supporting businesses, then what happens if there is ever a sharp decrease in student housing demand? Student housing is already oriented towards a lower income level. Don't think for a second if the student population drops with reduced housing demand that the apartment management firms will allow many units to sit vacant for a long time. Yep, it's then Section 8 time and Corryville's reputation will take on a whole new dimension. But maybe the student housing demand will remain robust for decades in Corryville-let's hope so for the many students' sake and safety.

The problem with all this new housing is that it leaves more current student housing vulnerable to to Section 8 and other low-class people.  There are always a handful of problem properties between Ravine and W. Clifton -- unless the student population surges beyond the number of new units, more of the McMicken St. action will creep up the hill.  Meanwhile, Corryville has no natural barrier, meaning that streets like Oak and Fosdick will remain shady even as new apartments go up around Short Vine. 

 

Warner St. unfortunately continues to be the area where many students and pizza men are picked off. 

 

Recieved letter from project groundwater that will involve the proposed demolition of 8 properties on Queen City between White and Quebec and 1 on Quebec.

 

Mary Lynn Lodar

[email protected]

 

Is the contact person. I have notified them that Knox Hill will be providing input regarding section 106 review on these properties and may request a  cost feasibility study on relocation if we determine any of these properties may be of significant value.

 

She responded that they are aware of the 106 review requirements. Who will conduct the 106 review is not yet determined and Larry Harris had no info at all.

 

They are only proposing a two week notification  prior to demolition and I intend to notify OHPO and the Feds that 2 weeks is not adequate on a project of this scope. They are a couple of years out before they would need to demo, are only in acquisition phase and have not even settled on a plan (at least publically)

 

I am supposed to have phone conference with them later this week. I plan on surveying the area on Saturday once I have an address of properties involved to see if there is anything significant. I may need to volunteers to do some historic research to get as much ammo as possible.

 

The most significant properties I believe are on Westwood, but there may be viable property and there is plenty of vacant lots for a move.

 

I am prepared to make this as difficult as need be if they plan on tearing down anything significant that could realistically be saved.

 

It strikes me that a historic overlay is needed for those corriidors

 

Will keep everyone posted!!!