Excuse me for speaking candidly but a paint museum and “possible retail” on Public Square? Who the f*ck wants to go see a paint museum? Why don’t we just forklift the Lumen over to this spot and pay PIckard Chilton to atleast light it up at night.

 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

SUNDAY, JANUARY 24, 2021

Sherwin-Williams HQ site plan, buildings come into focus

 

A site plan for the Sherwin-Williams (SHW) headquarters (HQ) in downtown Cleveland is coming into focus. And what the HQ lacks in height, it might make up for in street presence especially along West 6th Street and St. Clair Avenue.

 

SHW-owned properties along those two streets are proposed to be developed by others. Last summer, SHW acquired the Superblock (bounded by Superior, West 6th, St. Clair, West 3rd) from the Weston Group as well as the Public Square lot from the Jacobs Group. The 6.82 acres of land is used entirely by surface parking lots.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/01/sherwin-williams-hq-site-plan-buildings.html

THANKS KJP for another GREAT ARTICLE and for keeping us and the rest of Greater Cleveland in the loop!

 

Question:   

What the chances that Weston Group gets to develop the remaining two acres? 

 

Because I think that it would be nice IF they could finally bring to fruition part of their original plans for this massive parking crater!

@KJP, I missed any mention of SW’s training center & rumored extended-stay hotel in your latest article; is one/both included in that tower or somewhere else?

5 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Excuse me for speaking candidly but a paint museum and “possible retail” on Public Square? Who the f*ck wants to go see a paint museum? 

 

 

Probably as many who visit their existing 6,000-square-foot museum. Fact is, they have one and it's making the move with them over to Public Square. 

 

3 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

THANKS KJP for another GREAT ARTICLE and for keeping us and the rest of Greater Cleveland in the loop!

 

Question:   

What the chances that Weston Group gets to develop the remaining two acres? 

 

Because I think that it would be nice IF they could finally bring to fruition part of their original plans for this massive parking crater!

 

Thanks! I was wondering if that was a condition of Weston's sale, but I'd be surprised if either party knew two years ago that there would be SHW land available for ancillary development.

 

57 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

@KJP, I missed any mention of SW’s training center & rumored extended-stay hotel in your latest article; is one/both included in that tower or somewhere else?

 

Training would be done in the Public Square Center For Excellence or whatever they're going to call it at the new HQ. Any kind of lodging will be part of roughly two acres to be developed by others. I should probably specify those things in this latest article since they've been mentioned in my past articles. Thanks.

Hopefully the keep the flow of the updated Public Square westward with lots of greenery

Perhaps the end vision for the paint chip museum is not just paint, but more like the Heinz History Center in Pittsburgh. I wasn't excited for a ketchup and relish museum, but it turned out to be a fun use of a rainy afternoon in the 'berg. If SW can get the local sports teams and historical societies involved I could see it being a decent tourist attraction.

I was going to say that this increasingly looks like a swing and a miss by SHW. However, they’re not even swinging for the fences trying to hit a HR. Probably more accurate to say they’re creeping towards striking out on three foul bunt attempts. 

Edited January 24, 20214 yr by roman totale XVII

This is a definite fielders choice, where a Grand slam was possible.  The fact that they are going to put a glorified "lobby" on the Public Square lot blows my mind.  I've been in the center of excellence many times for meetings.....This is how they are going to keep vendors and suppliers out of the main tower.  I'm extremely grateful the are staying Downtown, but It feels like Cleveland is breaking even in this deal, since we are losing the R&D center (which is where most of the recent college grads start)  Warrensville Hts is getting totally screwed in this, and Brecksville ends up the big winner, where they will create....wait for it.....an lifestyle center with shops and housing.  unreal

Sorry if I'm missing something from the last few weeks, but wasn't the original plan to have two 20+ story towers?  I.e., one for the main HQ and another for other office/administrative uses?  Now, according to KJP's article and rendering, it looks like we're getting just one 30-35 story tower, plus the P.S. "lobby" and a parking deck.  Not necessarily complaining--and I like the idea of farming out ancillary development to others--but I'm still a little disappointed.  I get that the 30-35 tower at W.3rd and Superior would be around 1M s.f., but wasn't the original idea to have some of that spread out into another building?

It will be nice to see those parking lots developed, but the tower looks a lot like Erieview. Seems like they can do better than that.

Hmm, any indication that the "Center for Excellence" might end up being the base for a conference hotel?  It makes the Public Square location make more sense.  It makes the hotel that is supposedly a part of this project make more sense.  I think it just makes sense.

Not a fan of skywalks, but i'm sure those are nonnegotiable. And it seems like our chances of a 500 footer are slim. But I'm glad that there is ample amount of land for other developers to step in and that at some point in time W 6th and St Clair will be reactivated with multiple uses.

I think that this plan (purported) so far is like being gut punched by my 10 year old.  It isn't making me cry, but it did make me pause and my gut wrenched a little.  Thank you for staying SW, but c'mon, you can do better than this!  At the very least, put the paint museum on the super block and the HQ on the square.  The (yawn) paint museum height would seem to blend in better with the warehouse district buildings.  Going from an "iconic" tower to this (with everything in between) has been a bit of a let down.  Looking at basically a copy and paste of BOK (HQ and museum) is a real let down.  This has to be the easiest project (and easiest money) for Pickard Chilton in recent memory...copy, paste and tweak.   I am hoping I will eat crow on this, and I gladly will.  I will wait to see the renders and massing before I send my email of disappointment to SW.  It seems like downtown got a cake, but Brecksville is getting the icing.

The more I've looked at various Pickard Chilton buildings within its portfolio, and the more likely it sounds like the building will in fact be a glass box, I'm curious if anymore thought is going into a potential "crown" or rooftop element on top of the building.

 

The main tower of 1180 Peachtree in Atlanta, GA is more or less a box, but has a somewhat unique rooftop element that brings a lot more character to it. Something like that would allow for the floorplans to remain the desired box layout, while also having a building that doesn't just like a 21st Century version of 55 Public Square. The added height wouldn't hurt either.

Abysmal is the first word that came to my mind when considering that our homegrown legacy company of Sherwin-Williams is essentially going to plop down a copy and paste of Oklahoma City's BOK PARK TOWER in Cleveland's central core.

 

What's even more disturbing are their plans to put a paint museum and a potential retail store on the space fronting our signature greenspace of Public Square. WTF? 🙄😒😔

 

As so many of us have articulated on this forum I feel that Cleveland deserves so much more than this - especially in such an important and highly prized location.

 

It's really too bad that the city and county who have already committed many millions of tax dollars could not have some say in what exactly goes where.

 

For example, why can't there be a stipulation on what is constructed closest to the square. As others have posted, I believe if Sherwin-Williams wants a museum celebrating their history it would be much better placed among the other low-rise buildings in the Warehouse District.

 

As for the museum concept I am not a fan.

Remember when the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was built? We were all told that it would bring millions of tourists to Cleveland annually. Since that time the best that museum has ever accomplished is something around 500,000 visitors on an annual basis.

 

Bearing this in mind, why would anybody in their right mind think that a paint museum is suitable in such a prominent location? 🤔 My feeling is that this wouldn't be anything less than a complete FLOP.

 

Sherwin-Williams is a conservative company we all get that. However, why wouldn't they want to DO IT UP in grand style for this once in a lifetime venture.

 

If we're lucky enough, perhaps they will install an iconic rooftop element or a crown. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

Edited January 24, 20214 yr by John D. Baumgardner
Self edit

I'm not totally bummed out by things as they are shaping up right now. There is still alot in flux and anything could change. I don't really have much of a problem having a "Center for Excellence" on PS. The old Courthouse right across the square is only four stories. Something of similar size/height wouldn't be out of place as all. With all of the different things they're talking about putting in it, that might not be too far out of the question. Anything too much smaller though would be a problem. Not having a parking garage planed for along W6 is great too.

Guys, don't get too stuck on the paint museum. It may be too small to even be noticed if you were just passing through or there to attend a conference. If they keep the same size museum that's in the existing headquarters, it would be anywhere from 7.5% to 12% of the total floor area of this proposed new structure on Public Square. It may be something as simple as a decorated hallway -- like it is now. I'm hoping for something more like Devon's rotunda than Devon's auditorium, anyway. The auditorium is only about 30 feet tall versus the rotunda which is 120 feet tall. But the auditorium has almost twice as much usable space. We could always add usable space to a Sherwin-Williams version of the rotunda (shown below). Perhaps wishful thinking. Hmmm, maybe Sherwin Williams is planting mediocre news with me so that people will be pleasantly surprised when they announce the actual designs?

 

 

 

I am going to hold back my judgement until I see something concrete and official from SW, when they finally submit something to the Downtown Design Review Board at the city. In my opinion there's still just too much in flux. I liken this to how you see people remark that a building under construction is ugly because of some element of its construction (Insulation, wall substrate), when the final product has yet to be completed. Sometimes the building does end up ugly, sometimes not. 

 

What I will ask here to the board members is what do they think needs to be on the "Jacobs" lot on the square, if not the main building to this new HQ? I see comments like "Cleveland deserves better", ok, I like that comment. But what is better?

 

Currently there is a Civil war monument/Museum, a courthouse, a church, a couple other office buildings with minimal street presence, a casino, a hotel, the main entrance to our central intracity rail hub, seasonal attractions, a deli, some apartments and a Taco Bell. An eclectic collection of uses that I personally think are ok, just like a Corporate Museum/history center would be.  So what (outside the main tower of this new complex) would people think is appropriate here?

From what we’ve seen from our best source, @KJP,  there’s close to zero chance of SW spending for a decorative crown or spire.
 

So based strictly on the reporting - for me,  the narrative of a somewhat disappointing design continues.  It looks like the most bland office building design possible is definitely  the exemplar for SW, with an at best,  “non consequential” building  directly on the square.( @KJP gives us a hope for a possibly interesting design there in his follow- up.)

Instead of gaining more density with two 20 plus story buildings, we get one that does as much possible, given a mighty bulk  of 1 million square feet, to not rise to 500 feet high. There are slightly lower floor heights as low as 14 feet.  We hear nothing more of any hotel plans or mixed usage  considerations. 
 

The good news and hope-  also based  on the reporting - is that it is too early to know what all this will really look like . “Planning is still very early in the process - things can and probably will change” are key inclusions from the article. 
So for those rooting for a more iconic and inspiring design - there’s still reason to hope. We’re still learning details. 
 

One would think SW is fully aware of the importance of their world HQ  being based in Cleveland and the power of their image and brand  as an attractor of young talent from around the country and even internationally. 
Despite that, it’s  possible that they simply don’t care about aesthetics as much as The bottom line. Many of the key design decisions may be based on the latter. 
 

Let’s hope there are still important  conversations going on that move the goalposts positively and creatively on the ultimate rendering of this design. 
 

To me, from an idealist’s  perspective,  this is a once in a century opportunity to do both - continue the SW story as a conservative, hugely successful  business story while giving Cleveland a new, iconic  building - “in league with the Big 3” -symbolic of  its relevance and Renaissance in the 21st century. 
 

In terms of the latter, at the moment, I think my expectations are too high.  But time will reveal. 

Edited January 24, 20214 yr by CleveFan
Grammar

Call me an optimist. I think with right "creatives" there are some cool concepts that can be developed for  paint museum

I like the idea of W6th being developed by others. Maybe in John Harkness Brown fashion, a single building with a variety of sympathetic Warehouse District facades facing W6th will result.

2 minutes ago, Dougal said:

I like the idea of W6th being developed by others. Maybe in John Harkness Brown fashion, a single building with a variety of sympathetic Warehouse District facades facing W6th will result.

The newly proposed Liberty View mixed use development in Medina looks like a good example to follow. One building designed with 4 separate historic facades.  Though I'd personally hope for a taller version for downtown Cleveland.

Jeeze Cleve if we're going to copy another city's design why the hell are we copying anything from OkC? Last I looked no one is rushing to see all the amazing design coming from that town. If we have to copy someone at least copy from a place known for excellence in design.

 

I know SHW is a stogy company but paint can be cool too. After all it already has all the colors in the rainbow. Have a little fun SHW. You're allowed. 

23 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Jeeze Cleve if we're going to copy another city's design why the hell are we copying anything from OkC? Last I looked no one is rushing to see all the amazing design coming from that town. If we have to copy someone at least copy from a place known for excellence in design.

 

I know SHW is a stogy company but paint can be cool too. After all it already has all the colors in the rainbow. Have a little fun SHW. You're allowed. 

 

I do think the Devon HQ tower is pretty sharp, as is the adjoining rotunda (see photos in my previous post).

My biggest fear at this point is a setback or lawn fronting Public Square. Whatever is build on that first block should have a strong street wall for the length of the block, not an extension of open space.

25 minutes ago, ink said:

My biggest fear at this point is a setback or lawn fronting Public Square. Whatever is build on that first block should have a strong street wall for the length of the block, not an extension of open space.

So will the SW hdq building lobby front directly on public square? If so, expect a secure building lobby pretty much cut-off from the public.  Look at the dead zones created at key tower, 200 & 55 public square.  Even the revered Tower City isn’t much of a public draw anymore. The Casino? Well...

 

I don’t really have a problem so far about SW using the Jacobs parcel for some kind of paint museum open to the public to be used, at times perhaps, as a private event space.

 

im kind of liking the 1,000,000 sf hdqs building sitting on the w3 lot with a for the public “event” space directly on the Square.  Hdqs bldg directly on the Square will be strictly used for SW employees access...dead after 5 pm and weekends.  Look at the planning disaster known as E 9th street.

Edited January 24, 20214 yr by CLENYC

Guys, stop calling it a paint museum anymore than your fireplace mantle full of family photos makes your house a family museum.

 

It's where SHW will hold training sessions, classrooms, board meetings and special events. It apparently will have a store of some kind (possibly a SHW store) and a place where the company will tell about its long history. 

Maybe if they attached the Center for excellence to the tower directly, it may be more palatable. Much like 200 Public Square’s Galleria like entry. Except not as attached. Maybe have glass and steel webbing going over West 3rd, but the look from Public Square would be a single structure. 

2 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Maybe if they attached the Center for excellence to the tower directly, it may be more palatable. Much like 200 Public Square’s Galleria like entry. Except not as attached. Maybe have glass and steel webbing going over West 3rd, but the look from Public Square would be a single structure. 

There should be a public draw to this quadrant of the Square...one that works, unlike 200 Public Square and the Galleria (although the Galleria and The Avenue are different animals and failed for other reasons).

 

so while the generic name of paint museum is tossed around the idea of a ground level public draw on the Square should be mandatory; SW training facility, event and meeting space is fine but a public component with perhaps interactive education, history, and “fun” could work along with a SW retail store. School field trips, tourists etc could visit. Lots of collateral benefits to the entire Square.

 

anything beats a secured dead zone building lobby fronting directly on the Square for occasional SW employee access 9-5 M-F and a complete dead zone otherwise.

Hey Guys,  

 

With no malice intended, maybe we aren't the right target audience. SW told us the new headquarters will be used to attract and retain top talent.   I read this to mean Millenials or thereafter Gen Z +.  Thus, we   shouldn't be surprised if design specifications for Training & Excellence Center are focused on an iconic rope course, paintball turf area to keep competing teams from spilling out onto the square.  What did I leave out? Oh yeah, escape rooms and Hookah bar. 

 

With appreciation to all contributors here.  Glad we have the ability to enjoy this discussion and *perhaps* gently nudge the design arc towards a great outcome.

39 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

Hey Guys,  

 

With no malice intended, maybe we aren't the right target audience. SW told us the new headquarters will be used to attract and retain top talent.   I read this to mean Millenials or thereafter Gen Z +.  Thus, we   shouldn't be surprised if design specifications for Training & Excellence Center are focused on an iconic rope course, paintball turf area to keep competing teams from spilling out onto the square.  What did I leave out? Oh yeah, escape rooms and Hookah bar. 

 

With appreciation to all contributors here.  Glad we have the ability to enjoy this discussion and *perhaps* gently nudge the design arc towards a great outcome.

Absolutely times change regarding rope courses, paintball (ironic) turf, hookahs etc being implemented for employees. No problem. Adults employees needing constant fun activities at work...whatever.

 

but the old and common sense planning of drawing people in will always work, if done right.   What you list-mention is for employees; again, no public allowed. Cool hdq lobby sidewalk fronting PS still a dead zone; real cool yet locked down secure lobby is of no public use or enjoyment. Meanwhile upstairs 35 year olds are playing paintball games...btw, leading edge of millennials are now entering their ‘40s.

 

That said, SW hdqs should still include a public draw from the street level.  What you mention is valid but completely separate from the on going “public use/access/draw” being discussed.

Maybe they could partner with Nickelodeon to bring back Keep it Spotless, but for the masses!

As if 2020 wasn’t bad enough, now we’ve ruined 2021 with a Paint Museum on PS. Thanks SW. Nottttttt

33 minutes ago, ogibbigo said:

As if 2020 wasn’t bad enough, now we’ve ruined 2021 with a Paint Museum on PS. Thanks SW. Nottttttt

What would you like SW to build directly on PS that will draw people generally and enhance activity on PS in particular?

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by CLENYC

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Maybe they could partner with Nickelodeon to bring back Keep it Spotless, but for the masses!

 

ha yeah — a corporate museum could be really nice if it was done right, meaning actually being bigger and more interactive for kids and families.

 

then add that to the majority of the building as a training center, a paint superstore and i would imagine a food corner area, hopefully open to public facing square and it could be a pretty cool sw version of a mixed use structure.

 

and ideally if they would just partner with a hotel that would give the building even more ummphh.

 

30 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

ha yeah — a corporate museum could be really nice if it was done right, meaning actually being bigger and more interactive for kids and families.

 

then add that to the majority of the building as a training center, a paint superstore and i would imagine a food corner area, hopefully open to public facing square and it could be a pretty cool sw version of a mixed use structure.

 

and ideally if they would just partner with a hotel that would give the building even more ummphh.

 

I agree.  The more things to do downtown the better.  Every year (besides this year - thanks CoViD) my wife and I spend two nights in downtown and we like to experience all downtown has to offer along with Rapid trips to Ohio City and University Circle.  While I love downtown, it lacks shopping and overall could use more things to do especially during the day.  Losing the movie theatre (although it had seen better days) is another activity that is not available downtown anymore.  If Sherwin Williams does indeed provide another experience for families and kids, then I am all for it.  But time will tell if they are actually doing it or if it will be quality.

I can now see their intent with putting the conference and training center on Public Square, and I am not too bummed about that. Like Ken said, the museum will be a glorified hallway you'd find in any college. The good stuff is the foot traffic that can come out of this. The center for excellence will be the entire campus' living room. A company like Sherwin is going to have TONS of conferences, trainings, vendors, in and out of that building all day. Hello foot traffic and activity on public square. And the height is one block over. I'd say win there as long as it is not a closed off box. So my big positives here are

 

- Parking hidden by liner buildings. YESS!

- Leaving street frontage on 6th ad St Clair to create better walkability between PS and the Warehouse district. BIGGLYY YES!

- Still get some decent height. YAY!

1 hour ago, YO to the CLE said:

I can now see their intent with putting the conference and training center on Public Square, and I am not too bummed about that. Like Ken said, the museum will be a glorified hallway you'd find in any college. The good stuff is the foot traffic that can come out of this. The center for excellence will be the entire campus' living room. A company like Sherwin is going to have TONS of conferences, trainings, vendors, in and out of that building all day. Hello foot traffic and activity on public square. And the height is one block over. I'd say win there as long as it is not a closed off box. So my big positives here are

 

- Parking hidden by liner buildings. YESS!

- Leaving street frontage on 6th ad St Clair to create better walkability between PS and the Warehouse district. BIGGLYY YES!

- Still get some decent height. YAY!

SW should enhance general public and customer access and activities to a PS location, especially if there are other means of employee ingress/egress, say on W 3rd.

 

A public interactive-educational component and a full service retail location would enhance activity as well.  This would be a real gift to the community.

 

That’s all fine and good that employees and other folks doing corporate business may utilize a training center but any of the blocks, including PS, around the site need pedestrian activity.

 

not sure what is meant by your positive #2 though.

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by CLENYC

Maybe the new 3-4 story combination conference, training, museum and retail building on the Jacobs lot will be a place holder? 

 

So that in 10 to 20 years or so they can replace it with a new HQ Tower #3 when they run out of additional office space?

 

(Assuming they build the parking garage with the ability to support HQ Tower #2 in the future)

 

Or maybe they will build the multi-user building with cassions to bedrock so that they could add a 40+ story office tower above it at some point in the future?

 

Just like Comcast have built three office towers in Downtown Philadelphia over a number of years as needed.

9 hours ago, CLENYC said:

SW should enhance general public and customer access and activities to a PS location, especially if there are other means of employee ingress/egress, say on W 3rd.

 

A public interactive-educational component and a full service retail location would enhance activity as well.  This would be a real gift to the community.

 

That’s all fine and good that employees and other folks doing corporate business may utilize a training center but any of the blocks, including PS, around the site need pedestrian activity.

 

not sure what is meant by your positive #2 though.

 

 

What I meant by #2 is by Sherwin leaving those street frontages open to be developed by others, we have a much better chance of having pedestrian activity generating uses. I was very worried about a corporate entity being responsible for designing the street frontage for such a large space. Think about how many storefronts would have been needed to fill up W 3rd, Superior, W 6th, and St Clair. Do we really think Sherwin would have been a good steward and designed all of that frontage with activity? I highly doubt it. Honestly, that's difficult to do even by the most experienced urban developers.

 

This gives us a much better chance to get some diversity of uses along these crucial corridors

Honestly, if this is what they were going to build they could've built this somewhere else in the city. We've waited FOREVER for something to be built on the Jacobs lot and what they come up with is a low-rise paint museum?! They could of at least built the tower on top of the museum on the square. 

 

I honestly don't care about this project anymore. Everything that has come out has gotten more and more disappointing and I know the city (based on its history) won't have the guts to tell SHW to fix it. Tragic. 

Perhaps this was covered upthread and I missed it, but is there a plan for the Landmark Towers when SHW moves to the new headquarters?  That's a lot of square footage of space that will need new tenants or a new purpose.

46 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Honestly, if this is what they were going to build they could've built this somewhere else in the city. We've waited FOREVER for something to be built on the Jacobs lot and what they come up with is a low-rise paint museum?! They could of at least built the tower on top of the museum on the square. 

 

I honestly don't care about this project anymore. Everything that has come out has gotten more and more disappointing and I know the city (based on its history) won't have the guts to tell SHW to fix it. Tragic. 

 

Not a paint museum. 🤬

 

12 minutes ago, plinth857 said:

Perhaps this was covered upthread and I missed it, but is there a plan for the Landmark Towers when SHW moves to the new headquarters?  That's a lot of square footage of space that will need new tenants or a new purpose.

 

Not that I've seen. But then again I missed SHW donating its Breen Center to the city last summer. No documents relating to a property transfer or for the preparation of one (ie: building inspection, a continuation financing statement, etc) have been filed with the city or county for 101 W. Prospect Ave.

1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Honestly, if this is what they were going to build they could've built this somewhere else in the city. We've waited FOREVER for something to be built on the Jacobs lot and what they come up with is a low-rise paint museum?! They could of at least built the tower on top of the museum on the square. 

 

I honestly don't care about this project anymore. Everything that has come out has gotten more and more disappointing and I know the city (based on its history) won't have the guts to tell SHW to fix it. Tragic. 

Where else would it have been built in the city? It would be more likely that it would’ve been built outside the city or even outside of the state. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Keep some perspective here 

5 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Where else would it have been built in the city? It would be more likely that it would’ve been built outside the city or even outside of the state. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Keep some perspective here 

Bedrock site would have been an option.

do we think that SWH executives lurk on UO?

 

do we think they might rather go to @KJP's blogspot site instead? I have an irrational (or rational) concern that executives are proceeding with these plans thinking that the public is either supportive or at least indifferent to these developments (as they are trickling out) because there are no comments left on @KJPsite in response to his amazing scoops.  All the comments happen here.

 

I am wondering if executives are even aware of the level of disappointment by passionate UO fans (to the extent they would even care).

 

Do we need to start leaving comments on KJP's site too?

I know it sucks to hear this news, but to compare it like a Mike Tyson missing tooth isn't as surreal as Michael Jackson's plastic surgeries, or name brand vs. Great Value.

 

What we should've gotten:

Vs. What we're getting:

Where else would it have been built in the city? It would be more likely that it would’ve been built outside the city or even outside of the state. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Keep some perspective here 

The bedrock site as someone just mentioned. A 20-25 story building would have seemed MASSIVE on the site and a low-rise building would have fit in just fine.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

14 minutes ago, NewtoCLE said:

do we think that SWH executives lurk on UO?

 

do we think they might rather go to @KJP's blogspot site instead? I have an irrational (or rational) concern that executives are proceeding with these plans thinking that the public is either supportive or at least indifferent to these developments (as they are trickling out) because there are no comments left on @KJPsite in response to his amazing scoops.  All the comments happen here.

 

I am wondering if executives are even aware of the level of disappointment by passionate UO fans (to the extent they would even care).

 

Do we need to start leaving comments on KJP's site too?

 

You have to register with Google and follow the blog before you can post there. I was getting too much spam on there without the registration/follow requirements.

 

I don't know if they're following UO, but they are following Twitter and probably reading the feedback given there. But I wouldn't expect SHW or its HQ development team to put too much weight on public feedback. They'll pay attention to shareholders, executives and possibly some employees, then ultimately the Planning Commission. That's where the public's input will be received. Whether it will sway them remains to be seen.

 

And like @Mov2Ohio said, nothing formal has been presented publicly. I'm hearing from a few members of the design team. And while they do have a tentative site plan, nothing else has been designed. No finalized building heights, finishes, materials, textures, etc. I've been told what Pickard Chilton-designed structures are being used as examples but that doesn't mean that's how the final product will be designed. So let's see what happens. 

I find the scariest part of this plan to be the undeveloped portions of the site.  If SHW doesn't develop it, or if it isn't included in some master plan that is concurrent with SHW, I find it hard to envision it getting developed within the next 10 years or even beyond that.  I'm no real estate expert but here's a few observations.

 

1. SHW is only moving a few blocks.  This isn't exactly 1000 NEW jobs all of the sudden creating a demand for new apartments, hotel rooms, and restaurants.  Sure there might be a small net gain, but with Breen going to Brecksville it won't be much.

2. There are hundreds (maybe a few thousand) of apartments downtown planned and practically shovel ready.  And hundreds more if the Landmark is back filled with apartments, which is only logical.  I don't see this site being a homerun for more apartments.  And if so- it might be a decade away.

3. Hotels can barely fill rooms now.  It could be years before the existing hotels downtown bounce back.  It's hard to believe someone financing a hotel project with vacancies what they are right now.

4. Spec office space sure seems like a stretch.

5. Timing- SHW will probably need the entire site throughout construction for staging, so any new development would be around 2025 if we're lucky.  By then, we'll have hundreds more apartments, maybe even a new hotel somewhere else downtown, and if Nucleus or any other of these planned developments go, there will be little need for new office space either.  Plus, Cleveland has been in the middle of a building boom the last 10 years or so.  How long do we expect that to last?

6. These sites were previously owned by Weston and Jacobs, right?  They are very capable developers, owned them for years, and didn't develop them.  I don't see Weston or someone else all of the sudden doing a 180 on this site just because SHW moved a few blocks (unless there's a secret plan in place that no one knows about yet.)

6. SHW expansion- Given how long it took them to move, and how long its taking them to plan this building, how long will it take them to pull the trigger on an expansion project?

7. If these sites aren't being developed concurrently with SHW, they will likely be planned at the end of a building boom and beginning or middle of a recession in an oversaturated market.  With those conditions, at that time in the future, you know what I would bet is the easiest and most profitable use of the land?  SURFACE PARKING.

 

Most people on the forum have talked about filling in the void as the most essential part of the project.  This site plan has me really worried that it won't happen.