@Dino I don't know how long this building boom will last. Maybe it's wrapping up. Maybe it's just getting started. But I think you're overlooking the impact of the TMUD tax credit in instigating some spin-off down there, whether it's the Magellan development, a new-construction follow-on to the Rockefeller renovation, or developments on the SHW-owned lots. How much will the TMUD tax credit instigate? No one knows since there's never been a TMUD tax credit before for multiple new-construction projects. We had the catalytic historic tax credit for renovations and that spurred one new project in Ohio per year. This credit will spur multiple multiple big projects simultaneously -- possibly 4-10 per year. There's so much unknown out there that I would hesitate to make predictions. But it's going to be interesting.

1 hour ago, skiwest said:

Bedrock site would have been an option.

An option that they decided against. So it wasn’t an option FOR THEM. They could’ve done that if they wanted to. They didn’t want to. So there ain’t another option. They wanted to be on PS. Period. You’re gonna tell a Fortune 500 company that they have to go where you want them to go (and not where they want to be) if they don’t design their HQ on PS to your desires? Good luck with that 

1 hour ago, Dino said:

I find the scariest part of this plan to be the undeveloped portions of the site.  If SHW doesn't develop it, or if it isn't included in some master plan that is concurrent with SHW, I find it hard to envision it getting developed within the next 10 years or even beyond that.  I'm no real estate expert but here's a few observations.

 

1. SHW is only moving a few blocks.  This isn't exactly 1000 NEW jobs all of the sudden creating a demand for new apartments, hotel rooms, and restaurants.  Sure there might be a small net gain, but with Breen going to Brecksville it won't be much.

2. There are hundreds (maybe a few thousand) of apartments downtown planned and practically shovel ready.  And hundreds more if the Landmark is back filled with apartments, which is only logical.  I don't see this site being a homerun for more apartments.  And if so- it might be a decade away.

3. Hotels can barely fill rooms now.  It could be years before the existing hotels downtown bounce back.  It's hard to believe someone financing a hotel project with vacancies what they are right now.

4. Spec office space sure seems like a stretch.

5. Timing- SHW will probably need the entire site throughout construction for staging, so any new development would be around 2025 if we're lucky.  By then, we'll have hundreds more apartments, maybe even a new hotel somewhere else downtown, and if Nucleus or any other of these planned developments go, there will be little need for new office space either.  Plus, Cleveland has been in the middle of a building boom the last 10 years or so.  How long do we expect that to last?

6. These sites were previously owned by Weston and Jacobs, right?  They are very capable developers, owned them for years, and didn't develop them.  I don't see Weston or someone else all of the sudden doing a 180 on this site just because SHW moved a few blocks (unless there's a secret plan in place that no one knows about yet.)

6. SHW expansion- Given how long it took them to move, and how long its taking them to plan this building, how long will it take them to pull the trigger on an expansion project?

7. If these sites aren't being developed concurrently with SHW, they will likely be planned at the end of a building boom and beginning or middle of a recession in an oversaturated market.  With those conditions, at that time in the future, you know what I would bet is the easiest and most profitable use of the land?  SURFACE PARKING.

 

Most people on the forum have talked about filling in the void as the most essential part of the project.  This site plan has me really worried that it won't happen.

 

 

agreed, excect maybe regarding the hotel, i believe they want a real nice five star hotel top shelf hotel partner, which cle does not have. so that would be an all new hotel with their main business being steady sw staff coming and going to town. 

 

also, often the very nicest hotels have long term stay and even actual apartment floors, so a hotel partner with those options would be interesting. 

 

and lastly, someone mentioned the sw staff in this training center for excellence building will help liven public square. i dk about that, its actually a worry if they don't do it right. the trainees will be moving in the wrong direction, from the hq to training facility. also, i believe they even want a freaking skyway/walkway for that, further decreasing street pedestrian traffic. that seems very insular and i dont see any of them heading out on the square too often. thats why its important for everyone to push sw as is possible on this training center building to add other things like the paint superstore, an interactive museum, dining, and hopefully a hotel, etc. to liven up the public square facing side of it. 

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by mrnyc

18 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

agreed, excect maybe regarding the hotel, i believe they want a real nice five star hotel top shelf hotel partner, which cle does not have. so that would be an all new hotel with their main business being steady sw staff coming and going to town. 

 

also, often the very nicest hotels have long term stay and even actual apartment floors, so a hotel partner with those options would be interesting. 

 

and lastly, someone mentioned the sw staff in this training center for excellence building will help liven public square. i dk about that, its actually a worry if they don't do it right. the trainees will be moving in the wrong direction, from the hq to training facility. also, i believe they even want a freaking skyway/walkway for that, further decreasing street pedestrian traffic. that seems very insular and i dont see any of them heading out on the square too often. thats why its important for everyone to push sw as is possible on this training center building to add other things like the paint superstore, an interactive museum, dining, and hopefully a hotel, etc. to liven up the public square facing side of it. 

To add on to that, having a hotel/training center in one building could be the most efficient way to go. The hotel could have a large ballroom for general meetings and meals, there would be smaller meeting rooms and breakout areas for more focused training, the "trainees" would be housed in the same building they are being trained in reducing transition times between sessions and events, and these rooms could be booked by the puplic for weddings, benefits or other business conferences with other entities. 

51 minutes ago, KJP said:

a new-construction follow-on to the Rockefeller renovation

@KJP, what did you mean by this?  Have you heard of expanded plans for the Rockefeller?

13 minutes ago, Go CLE said:

@KJP, what did you mean by this?  Have you heard of expanded plans for the Rockefeller?

 

The first phase will be the existing building only. Note that the garage behind it has been split off. 😉

I think the structure on the PS lot has been way blown out of proportion in the last 2 days of comments I skimmed. My take on this building is more of an event gathering space, which to me makes more sense where they located it.

Think about it, the views on all sides of this building with the new headquarters are going to be fantastic. Especially compared to if they swapped the location with the HQ building. Just give it some time for more details to come out, there's a very real chance that smaller building could add way more presence and liveliness to the square than just the HQ building. It's separate from the HQ building, meaning there's a way larger chance of it being used for more open public events than anything located within the tower. Pretty cool to imagine a rooftop wedding cocktail hour in the summer there.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

@Dino I don't know how long this building boom will last. Maybe it's wrapping up. Maybe it's just getting started. But I think you're overlooking the impact of the TMUD tax credit in instigating some spin-off down there, whether it's the Magellan development, a new-construction follow-on to the Rockefeller renovation, or developments on the SHW-owned lots. How much will the TMUD tax credit instigate? No one knows since there's never been a TMUD tax credit before for multiple new-construction projects. We had the catalytic historic tax credit for renovations and that spurred one new project in Ohio per year. This credit will spur multiple multiple big projects simultaneously -- possibly 4-10 per year. There's so much unknown out there that I would hesitate to make predictions. But it's going to be interesting.

I hope you're right, but I'm worried that TMUD actually makes spin off development harder.  Assuming TMUD continues year to year (I think it's only a two or three year window right now), and assuming several large Cleveland projects utilize it in the next few years, how much demand will there be for downtown apartments or hotel, or office space in 4 or 5 years when a spin off development is likely to happen?  The TMUD creates capital, which could create a lot of supply, but it can't create demand.  Unless something is already being planned on this site in conjunction with the HQ, I'm worried anything else on this site could be late to the game.  Downtown could be overbuilt before the full block is filled in.  Again, I'm no expert- but that's what I thought of when seeing the HQ site plan.  I really hope I'm wrong though.

2 minutes ago, Dino said:

 I really hope I'm wrong though.

 

I think you will be...

 

SHW moving their training centers to downtown is absolutely huge, so I'm not sure why you're underestimating the need for spinoff developments. They will fill thousands of hotel nights each year that were currently staying in hotels located in the SW burbs and off 271 on the eastside.

So it sounds like the downtown hotels will benefit at the expense of those suburban hotels.

13 minutes ago, Dino said:

I hope you're right, but I'm worried that TMUD actually makes spin off development harder.  Assuming TMUD continues year to year (I think it's only a two or three year window right now), and assuming several large Cleveland projects utilize it in the next few years, how much demand will there be for downtown apartments or hotel, or office space in 4 or 5 years when a spin off development is likely to happen?  The TMUD creates capital, which could create a lot of supply, but it can't create demand.  Unless something is already being planned on this site in conjunction with the HQ, I'm worried anything else on this site could be late to the game.  Downtown could be overbuilt before the full block is filled in.  Again, I'm no expert- but that's what I thought of when seeing the HQ site plan.  I really hope I'm wrong though.

 

No one is late. No TMUD applications have been submitted. And there is a long list of projects that could apply, most if not all of whom are responding to demand. And I'm sure there will be more (see the Cleveland Innovation District that will be announced in about 15 minutes).

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

No one is late. No TMUD applications have been submitted. And there is a long list of projects that could apply, most if not all of whom are responding to demand. And I'm sure there will be more (see the Cleveland Innovation District that will be announced in about 15 minutes).

Good to hear!

13 minutes ago, skiwest said:

So it sounds like the downtown hotels will benefit at the expense of those suburban hotels.

 

Big time. I'd guess downtown will be gaining somewhere between 6k-7k hotel nights a year (conservatively) from the SHW moves.

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by Clefan98

Okay, so after taking everything in...here's what I'm hoping for. Looking at the latest layout that @KJP posted in his blog, I'm hoping that the new SHW HQ (Long term plan) will look like the Weston plans that came out a few years ago. Those plans pretty much meet the requirements it seems SHW is seeking.

 

In regards to the plans  for the Jacobs lot, I'm fine sacrificing height. However, where the building will lack in height, it better make up for with d*mn good design. 

29 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Big time. I'd guess downtown will be gaining somewhere between 6k-7k hotel nights a year (conservatively) from the SHW moves.

Makes me think there should be a hotel on the Jacobs site.  🤨

 

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by skiwest

They’re still at it. West 3rd & Frankfort 

 

Edited March 23, 20214 yr by marty15

Is it possible that SW is so conservative that they don't want the HQ tower across the street from a casino?

 

Could that be the reason for a Center of Excellence on PS instead?

3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Is it possible that SW is so conservative that they don't want the HQ tower across the street from a casino?

 

Could that be the reason for a Center of Excellence on PS instead?

I doubt that. Where they are now is across from a Casino, and even if the HQ is built on West 3rd and Superior, it will still be essentially across from a Casino. If the Casino was the issue they should've dropped there 10s of millions for land purchases somewhere else.

On 1/24/2021 at 10:28 AM, mack34 said:

This is how they are going to keep vendors and suppliers out of the main tower.  I'm extremely grateful the are staying Downtown, but It feels like Cleveland is breaking even in this deal, since we are losing the R&D center (which is where most of the recent college grads start)  Warrensville Hts is getting totally screwed in this, and Brecksville ends up the big winner, where they will create....wait for it.....an lifestyle center with shops and housing.  unreal

 

Not sure where you are getting your info on that most recent grads start at the R&D Center. But unless you're on the product development side of the business, you're probably not starting there. If you are accounting, finance, marketing, communications, IT, HR, Customer Service, or Operations you're more than likely starting in the HQ building, maybe Skylight. Some people, but very few would start in the Hinkley office. And if you start on the Automotive side of the company, you would most likely start in Warrensville Hts.

The Midwest Division offices are in Strongsville, I haven't seen anything about those jobs being moved but those could be potentially moved to Cleveland or the Brecksville site. You also have the Cleveland District office in Garfield Heights, I would doubt those jobs would move though. I think it's only a matter of time before the Valspar jobs slowly move down from Minnesota and Chicago and are moved to Cleveland/Brecksville as well. There is also some ancillary offices in Sewickley, PA that could be moved up as well. All in all, you're going to see a rather significant increase in downtown staffing once everything has been moved to the new offices. And all that increase doesn't even include the general increase in hiring that goes along with a growing business.

Except for ground-floor parking, this is an actually delightful concept for GA Tech that speaks well to the SW Site - by a Pickard Chilton architect.
'Concept & images are posted at:  http://kylebeneventi.com/pickard-chilton/

 

(Create a tunnel for West 3rd Street, and Voila!)

 

"GA TECH  -  TECHNOLOGY SQUARE COMPETITION

Technology Square will inspire and realize a sustainable, innovative ecosystem that integrates Technology Square with the new interdisciplinary research and economic development potential. 

Sited across the bridge from GA TECH proper, this tower will encourage a collaborative community; linking students interested in tech and software with research labs and companies that can train them and facilitate their potential. This relationship is further strengthened by the High Performance Computing Center, which occupies the historic Crum and Forster building connected to the tower on the first four floors. 

All work is the property of and was a collaborative effort of Pickard Chilton Architects."

 

 

Edited January 26, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy

Yes, something like that would look better than a giant cereal box.

ahh so they can akshully cantilever for roof decks, etc.

 

ok nice that works.

Check out the conceptual/evocative Public Square style view.

 

Edited January 26, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy

With massive government subsidies and continued impressive corporate  financials, Cleveland deserves more than a half-baked building on Public Square.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/news/2021/01/28/sherwin-williams-sees-diy-paint-sales-jump.html?ana=cleveland

Edited February 2, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

😒😒😒

Once again folks, keep it on topic!

 

11 minutes ago, MayDay said:

😒😒😒

Once again folks, keep it on topic!

 

This is the worst rendering yet posted. Definitely does not belong on Public Square.

I took a walk down to the river over the weekend and came back up to Public Square using Frankfort in an attempt to image what the tower-fronted-by-‘not a paint museum’ could look and feel like. 

I have to say, I may be turned around on the proposal, with two caveats. Firstly, the height on the Jacobs lot, because of the falloff in elevation on the west side of the square, is going to have to be, at an absolute minimum, the height of the facing courthouse plus whatever the elevation change is. Secondly, the interaction between the Jacobs and Weston lots is really going to hang on the design. So I’ll wait for more detail with baited breath. 

2 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

I took a walk down to the river over the weekend and came back up to Public Square using Frankfort in an attempt to image what the tower-fronted-by-‘not a paint museum’ could look and feel like. 

I have to say, I may be turned around on the proposal, with two caveats. Firstly, the height on the Jacobs lot, because of the falloff in elevation on the west side of the square, is going to have to be, at an absolute minimum, the height of the facing courthouse plus whatever the elevation change is. Secondly, the interaction between the Jacobs and Weston lots is really going to hang on the design. So I’ll wait for more detail with baited breath. 

 

That detail is incoming. But you may not like it. In fact, lots of detail in this latest....

 

 

2 hours ago, MayDay said:

😒😒😒

Once again folks, keep it on topic!

 

How is the post that started the debate (which is still up here) on topic but the responses to it off topic?

Just now, KJP said:

 

That detail is incoming. But you may not like it. In fact, lots of detail in this latest....

 

 

Uh oh! Lol

42 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

How is the post that started the debate (which is still up here) on topic but the responses to it off topic?

You missed some things this afternoon. @MayDay was nice and moved the non-news post and responses to the random visualizations thread.  

1 hour ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Uh oh! Lol

Haha!  SW moving HQ to Atlanta after all? 

 

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2021

Sherwin-Williams may not move into new HQ until 2025

 

There's a mix of good and bad news coming out of the development team working on Sherwin-Williams' (SHW) new headquarters (HQ) in downtown Cleveland. Let's get the bad news out of the way first.

 

At the current rate of progress by the development team, SHW employees probably won't be able to move into the new HQ until sometime in 2025. That's nearly a year later than a revised schedule announced publicly last September. And even that was a revision from an earlier goal. SHW executives initially had hoped they would be able to move into their new HQ in late-2023.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/02/sherwin-williams-wont-move-into-new-hq.html

 

Its an update but quite the disappointment.

3 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Its an update but quite the disappointment.

 

When our stance is "who needs height if you have street-level activation" at Cleveland's front door and you get "the municipal code is forcing some token public space", that's disappointing

Edited February 2, 20214 yr by infrafreak

2 minutes ago, infrafreak said:

 

When our stance is "who needs height if you have street-level activation" at Cleveland's front door and you get "the municipal code is forcing some token public space", that's disappointing

Exactly, now I'm only happy SW isn't developing all of the lots and I'm hopeful some legit developers take advantage and bring some exciting mixed us developments to be built right by the new HQ building. The COE building is so lame I can't even.

Of the buildings around our reconfigured and rebuilt Public Square, I was hopeful that this new addition would add to the pedestrian activity quite literally in the center of the city. Kinda let down by all of this- boxy tower, one storefront on Frankfurt and W. 3rd, and no interaction with the public at the former Jacobs Lot on Public Square... the one tidbit about it bringing even more jobs, now 3,500 to Public Square is a plus. I’m not as bothered about it stretching into 2025 but... dammit.

 

It sounds as if the parking lots SW are replacing have more public interaction than these buildings will. SAD!

Yeah I’ve been positive until this. This sucks. Still thankful for jobs and a new building but still. We have an awful public square when it comes to interaction with pedestrians so I guess this is no different. 
 

O well at least we have the Euclid stretch that now is phenomenal and getting better. 

Hopefully the old Stark building gets rehabbed with some sort of first floor retail, otherwise the new SW store on 3rd will just be an island surrounded by non-publicly accessible spaces for two blocks on both sides of the street.

^^That was my take as well. Also, there’s the chance the Parking Lot District gains more retail uses through further construction on the SW site along St. Clair, Superior, and along W.6th.

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Oldmanladyluck

Man I don’t even care anymore 

Damn...I remained positive this whole time. I was cool with the tower not on public square, I was cool with the reduced height projections. All that truly mattered was the interaction with the street and it sounds like that's going to be a fail...We all know the city won't force their hand either. Maybe the only saving grace is that the design process is taking sooooo long that we get a new mayor in who will push the importance of street activity. Wishful thinking I know

Yeah. I’m gonna walk back my comments from earlier today. If they wanted a fortress, they should’ve chosen the Bedrock site. Out of sight, out of mind. Just like they are today. 

Lots of disappointing details... HQ won't have any retail, the Center of Excellence on Public Square won't be open to the public, and Frankfort will be treated like an alley.

 

I wish Sherwin would give up the PS lot to some other developer. It'd be nice to see residential and/or hotel on the square, which are more lively and active outside of M-F 9-5.

 

Is there any chance the land on the superblocks that aren't part of Sherwin's new headquarters, the parts fronting W 6th and St Clair, get developed first? Or is that not possible? I can't remember if Sherwin was going to use that land for staging.

Can anyone give me examples where a company’s HQ actually interacts with the public/streets?

I'm not at all surprised. It was so predictable. I have no further comments. 

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

I’m with those disappointed as details are getting revealed. The timeline is frustrating but the apparent design vision for that location is the big disappointment.  
 

I get that SW gets to design whatever they want for their purposes. I just don’t get why they’d choose the heart of the city - the PS site - for an HQ  that actually wants zero interaction with the general public.  If security and a low  key profile was desired - the public square location just doesn’t  make sense.  

 

Economically and strategically - SW’s presence will be epic. But design-wise, It’s looking like this mega project will produce none of the following:  “Big 3” height, increased street activity with the public or an iconic Cleveland building.  Yep, disappointing.  

 

11 minutes ago, JB said:

Can anyone give me examples where a company’s HQ actually interacts with the public/streets?

200 Public Square has multiple ground floor retail spaces. Key Tower's first floor is open to the public with places to eat and hang out. Last time I visited I got pizza and listened to violin players in the lobby.

13 minutes ago, tykaps said:

200 Public Square has multiple ground floor retail spaces. Key Tower's first floor is open to the public with places to eat and hang out. Last time I visited I got pizza and listened to violin players in the lobby.

200 is a little different because of the multiple tenants. Key has a hotel attached to it (which kinda forces some public interaction) and I believe if I’m not mistaken they have multiple tenants too now. It appears that SHW’s building will be in use only by SHW