In summary: We're getting a glass box attached by elevated walkway to a smaller glass box and next to a parking garage. We're getting a single retail space between all three of these with no other public interaction, all on some of the most central real estate in the city. This is so we can gain 500 jobs and lose 3-400 to Brecksville...

 

I know I sound really cynical but I was really looking forward to a revolutionary downtown project. At least their old HQ will be available for renovation. Maybe that'll be the revolutionary part of this...

How much pushback is the design/landmark comission able to give? Could they stonewall SW if they really wanted to?

2 minutes ago, tykaps said:

In summary: We're getting a glass box attached by elevated walkway to a smaller glass box and next to a parking garage. We're getting a single retail space between all three of these with no other public interaction, all on some of the most central real estate in the city. This is so we can gain 500 jobs and lose 3-400 to Brecksville...

 

I know I sound really cynical but I was really looking forward to a revolutionary downtown project. At least their old HQ will be available for renovation. Maybe that'll be the revolutionary part of this...

So gaining those 500 jobs aren’t valuable? Nor is retaining the Jobs that SHW currently has? I really don’t get it around here sometimes lol. Of course I wanted a big skyline altering tower like everybody else. But I’ve said and I will continue to say that the actual most important thing here is 3,500 mf’n JOBS. We are retaining jobs, gaining jobs, and not having to see yet another corporate HQ go to the suburbs or leave the region altogether. I get people are disappointed. But are we really gonna act like this is a freakin LOSS when all of those jobs are part of the equation?! Are we gonna just pretend that we could replace those easily if SHW decided to leave? The bottom line is that they have a conservative culture, we ALL knew that going in. In my view, the city won the day they decided to stay in Cleveland and stay in downtown Cleveland specifically. Anything above that was icing on the cake. So now we get no icing. And we’re disappointed. I GET IT. But where is some perspective?! 3,500 jobs retained and gained. Are you kidding me?! That’s the most important thing. So let’s not just blow off “all of this just for 500 jobs to replace the jobs we lost to Brecksville” like that doesn’t matter. I mean really? Lol

This a board that's dedicated to construction and urban design. Shouldn't you expect criticism to come from this interest group, specifically?

1 minute ago, Whipjacka said:

This a board that's dedicated to construction and urban design. Shouldn't you expect criticism to come from this interest group, specifically?

I’ll repeat what I said: I GET being disappointed. But to act like it’s a LOSS is a bit much, don’t you think? To just blow off the jobs being retained/gained, that’s weird to me. Especially if we’re supposed to all want what’s best for the city 

News about the SHW bldg keeps getting worse and worse. Move-in date aside--i'm not as concerned with that as I am with what kind of skyscraper we're getting. So rather than a 60-70 story tower on Public Square we get a 50,000SF "Center of Excellence (CoE)" which is probably less than ten stories tall?  And the real bldg is only 30-35 stories tall located on W3 instead of Public Square? Does the city or anyone with a urban design sense have any input or influence on the SHW execs? What's next, a rendering of a suburban box with a giant set back with a green strip of grass in front along W3 and Frankfort? And the box is just 18 stories tall and takes up the whole block to W. 6 and St. clair---green grass set backs on all sides with no street level retail?

4 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I’ll repeat what I said: I GET being disappointed. But to act like it’s a LOSS is a bit much, don’t you think? To just blow off the jobs being retained/gained, that’s weird to me. Especially if we’re supposed to all want what’s best for the city 

 

This isnt charity, sw isnt losing any money by staying in cleveland. If the city has leverage to push back on street-level design, then it should.

3 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

 

This isnt charity, sw isnt losing any money by staying in cleveland. If the city has leverage to push back on street-level design, then it should.

And they could’ve gotten the same deal or better by going somewhere else and we all (should) know that. Let’s be real

@KJP, the storefront that will be part of the parking garage, is that going to be a SHW store?

6 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

@KJP, the storefront that will be part of the parking garage, is that going to be a SHW store?

 

I haven't heard.

So the latest rumor is an itty-bitty CoE on the Square and the big building on w3-Superior lot, all exclusively for SW employees. Perhaps a retail-storefront on W 3, no doubt a fast-casual, yet trendy, yet still generic, food joint. Should do well though given the high concentration of workers and area residents. I wasn’t expecting any ground floor retail on any sides of the big blocks; why would SW want to deal with a retail component? 

 

Now that this CoE is SW only, most access will be on W 3; foot traffic from HQ to CoE. PS will get a boost just having SW there but the hoped additional foot traffic will be limited without a pull to that quadrant. Talk about a 180 from the Weston plans.

 

Now the whole thing is stretched to a 2025 opening-occupancy.  Hope those additional 500 are really coming.

 

so now that the public isn’t getting in, will the public have decent to excellent access thru this emerging corporate campus? CLE needs to get an excellent public pedestrian connection from PS to the WHD-East Bank Flats out of this. Wonder what they’ll do with the Frankfort Alley?

 

 

If there's any SHW execs perusing this site, we will happily take off 10 stories of your tower if you can give us some sort of public interface at the ground level. Thank you.

 

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

So gaining those 500 jobs aren’t valuable? Nor is retaining the Jobs that SHW currently has? I really don’t get it around here sometimes lol. Of course I wanted a big skyline altering tower like everybody else. But I’ve said and I will continue to say that the actual most important thing here is 3,500 mf’n JOBS. We are retaining jobs, gaining jobs, and not having to see yet another corporate HQ go to the suburbs or leave the region altogether. I get people are disappointed. But are we really gonna act like this is a freakin LOSS when all of those jobs are part of the equation?! Are we gonna just pretend that we could replace those easily if SHW decided to leave? The bottom line is that they have a conservative culture, we ALL knew that going in. In my view, the city won the day they decided to stay in Cleveland and stay in downtown Cleveland specifically. Anything above that was icing on the cake. So now we get no icing. And we’re disappointed. I GET IT. But where is some perspective?! 3,500 jobs retained and gained. Are you kidding me?! That’s the most important thing. So let’s not just blow off “all of this just for 500 jobs to replace the jobs we lost to Brecksville” like that doesn’t matter. I mean really? Lol

Ya, I'm much happier that the jobs stayed here. Those 3500 are important. But I don't really get excited about the bare minimum of "not losing jobs."

It's a net gain of 1-200 jobs after SHW grows into the space. Great news but it's nothing that big for the time frame. And it's at the cost of turning an extremely central location into a fortress. This could have been great to activate the area and bridge the dead zone between Public Square and the Warehouse District. New SHW HQ is great, but if this is their plan, it's a big waste of the location.

3 hours ago, tykaps said:

Ya, I'm much happier that the jobs stayed here. Those 3500 are important. But I don't really get excited about the bare minimum of "not losing jobs."

It's a net gain of 1-200 jobs after SHW grows into the space. Great news but it's nothing that big for the time frame. And it's at the cost of turning an extremely central location into a fortress. This could have been great to activate the area and bridge the dead zone between Public Square and the Warehouse District. New SHW HQ is great, but if this is their plan, it's a big waste of the location.

The “bare minimum” as you say would’ve been a damn big deal had we lost them

7 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

00 is a little different because of the multiple tenants.

200 PS was designed and built as the HQ for Standard Oil of Ohio (acquired by BP), so a HQ building can have public access.

 

It can and has been done.

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

7 hours ago, tykaps said:

200 Public Square has multiple ground floor retail spaces. Key Tower's first floor is open to the public with places to eat and hang out. Last time I visited I got pizza and listened to violin players in the lobby.

Thank you for the response instead of just downvoting me.

thanks for the reporting @KJP

 

Happy about the jobs.

 

Disappointed like most of us for all of the aforementioned reasons.

 

Holding out hope for the NuCLEus Jenga Tower as the sky-line altering tower Cleveland deserves

@KJP, thanks for the update but I’m curious your jobs breakdown had no mention of any Valspar jobs from Minny coming here; 25 from Chicago but no mention of Valspar? 

I've gotta say - just reading these responses re: urban planning, I can tell which of ya want to get rid of Baker Mayfield lol

12 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

I've gotta say - just reading these responses re: urban planning, I can tell which of ya want to get rid of Baker Mayfield lol

I'm not sure that I follow. Maybe it's too early for me.

This will teach me not to read the flurry of responses at 4am.  Disappointing to say the least.  I get that SW is security minded, but why not make it street level useful?  Street level doesn't have to mean any activity takes place inside the lobby, they could have multiple storefronts/restaurants/bodegas that could only be accessed from the sidewalk.  This sounds like straight up anti urban streetscape.  SW...this is your home city, this is your WORLD HQ...making a statement isn't arrogance, it's PRIDE!  From everything that has been mentioned in this thread about the project...I can't stand what I am hearing.  And YABO, I definitely want to keep Mayfield!!! 😁

12 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I'm not sure that I follow. Maybe it's too early for me.

 

Lol those acting like the SHW HQ is a waste of the property downtown = "......Yeahhhhhhhhhh but we really didn't give Case Keenum a shot." 

13 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I'm not sure that I follow. Maybe it's too early for me.

i think its a comment about rushing to judgment. I'm inferring that his implication is that the latest news is the equivalent of Baker's pick 6 to start the first Pittsburgh game.

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

Lol those acting like the SHW HQ is a waste of the property downtown = "......Yeahhhhhhhhhh but we really didn't give Case Keenum a shot." 

You sniped me, dawg.

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

Lol those acting like the SHW HQ is a waste of the property downtown = "......Yeahhhhhhhhhh but we really didn't give Case Keenum a shot." 

I am not super thrilled about the design of the SW headquarters either but I am glad they are staying and putting the employees here will help improve the fortunes of the WHD and PS. And I also think we should keep Mayfield. Getting rid of him is crazy talk. We should keep SW too.

Quote

"Similarly, SHW's proposed new 50,000- to 80,000-square-foot Center of Excellence (CoE), to be located on the lot closest to Public Square, probably won't be open to the public either, the same sources said. Instead, it will be limited to SHW corporate meetings, training and tours by invitation only."

 

This is the really disappointing part. And if this is their plan, I don't get why it's a separate building on Public Square instead of a larger base below the HQ. Seems like the fewer buildings to keep secure the better.

 

The year-long delay doesn't really bug me if it helps this project be materially better. I've said a few times that SHW's balance sheet is likely to just get better as their sales improve and the Valspar acquisition is farther in the rear-view window. That should potentially give the design team more leeway. But the news over the last month makes it sounds like if the site plan and design are subpar it will be as a result of their being poorly conceived, not poorly funded.

 

The 500 additional employees is very good news. If SHW wants to delay the HQ move to 2026 but make it 4,000 that's fine with me!

Who would have thought that an apartment building (The Lumen) could potentially be taller and better looking than the Global HQ of a Fortune 500 company? 
 

Nothing about this project makes sense anymore:

 

"We are going to buy the most prominent available development site in the city and build a new headquarters"

 

"You're building your new headquarters on the city's most prominent available development site?"

 

"No, next to it.  On that site we're going to build a museum and conference center"

 

"Oh, ok.  I guess that makes some sense because that will all be public facing uses"

 

"No! Sherwin-Williams staff and guests only!  NO PUBLIC!!!"

 

I know these guys are a conservative corporation, but are we really sure they aren't playing a joke on us?

7 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Who would have thought that an apartment building (The Lumen) could potentially be taller and better looking than the Global HQ of a Fortune 500 company? 

 

Usually I'd agree, but P&G's headquarters is really one of the more iconic buildings of Cincinnati, often photographed and admired - partly because of its frontward location along Interstate 71. But the S&W project doesn't have any of that - it doesn't have an iconic design nor does it face anything of value. I held my thoughts back on the project because it's really S&W's to pursue and I still see the overall benefit of keeping the jobs in the city as an overall plus, but the proposed layout and design really does stink. It can still be a walled garden and be successful - but the overall trend it seems has been to make corporate HQ's more of a secure and inaccessibile environment for security concerns.

I get being conservative, but this is totally 1970s thinking if there's no public interaction.  And don't count on our lousy, narrow-minded CLE leadership to push back.  Despite the tremendous amount of taxpayer support this is getting. 

 

We need to remain hopeful though.  Hopefully when they actually lay out their plan, it includes real plans for the remaining lots including substantial investment from them.  If they want to keep their HQ tower private, fine - but they better throw us a freaking bone with the Jacobs' lot and remaining parts.  And West 6th better be lined with retail and public use.  If they truly want to attract the best and brightest, they should care about all that too.  

2 hours ago, NewtoCLE said:

Holding out hope for the NuCLEus Jenga Tower as the sky-line altering tower Cleveland deserves

Don't hold your breath on nuCLEus. 

 

Maybe the new courthouse will be the skyline altering tower.  I kind of wish SHW would have selected the Bedrock site and the courthouse could have gone on the Jacobs lot.  Oh well.

 

17 minutes ago, seicer said:

 

...nor does it face anything of value. 

 

Umm....Public Square! 

9 minutes ago, ink said:

 

Umm....Public Square! 

 

I thought someone was reiterating that the main building was to be on a rear parking lot with a museum/conference center facing PS?

^That is true, but the headquarters building will still tower over the paint museum. 

If the SW executive leadership demonstrates this degree of creativity and vision when undertaking a once-in-a-century project... boy, what a joy it must be to work for them. I mean, this is a paint company after all. 

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by ASP1984

Just now, ASP1984 said:

If the executive leadership shows demonstrates this degree of creativity and vision when undertaking a once-in-a-century project... boy, what a joy it must be to work for them. I mean, this is a paint company after all. 

something something "..it's like watching paint dry"

I agree with all the voices on here criticizing the lack of street-level activity in this design.  The only thing I have to add is that the "security" concern doesn't even make sense!  What do they think is going to happen if there's a coffee shop on the ground floor of their building?  Look at prominent, successful business districts in NYC, Chicago, DC/Northern Virginia, or any major city and there are office buildings full of important corporations and law firms with street level retail.  They all care about security too, but it doesn't stop them.  It would be one thing if there was actually a trade-off here between the security/success of SW's business and ground floor activity, but there is no trade-off.

4 minutes ago, GISguy said:

something something "..it's like watching paint dry"

 

I just picture Dunder Mifflin as a Fortune 500.

so the public square piece seems like it'll be one or two stories. if its two floors with an auditorium/conference rooms/orientation space then its very possible there'll be a 20 foot lobby facing w3 with a second floor skywalk over the street and blank walls around the other three sides. 

 

anything would be better than that. just a big Sherwin Williams plaza with no building is better.

 

but I don't mean to complain too much because we should be kissing the feet of the company who decided we are a good enough town to print money in

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Whipjacka

1 hour ago, seicer said:

 

Usually I'd agree, but P&G's headquarters is really one of the more iconic buildings of Cincinnati, often photographed and admired - partly because of its frontward location along Interstate 71. But the S&W project doesn't have any of that - it doesn't have an iconic design nor does it face anything of value. I held my thoughts back on the project because it's really S&W's to pursue and I still see the overall benefit of keeping the jobs in the city as an overall plus, but the proposed layout and design really does stink. It can still be a walled garden and be successful - but the overall trend it seems has been to make corporate HQ's more of a secure and inaccessibile environment for security concerns.

 

You may call them iconic, but they really aren't that impressive.  They are short, there's a huge park surrounding them that does little to engage the public, and at their base to the east you see multi-lane freeways and surface parking that have completely destroyed the basin of Cincinnati.  

 

SW has an opportunity to unite a revamped Public Square (jersey barriers included) with the Warehouse District/FEB and the workers, residents and activities in between.  I would hope the other developable parcels can be developed by someone who is serious about this connection. 

 

I also hope the news we are hearing now is really just trying to throw us off of their actual plans.  From the height of the tower to the use of the parcels, it's been all over the place.  

My own two cents on this.

 

Per KJP's article: “The HQ tower will not have any ‘active uses’...on the ground floor...Similarly, Center of Excellence (CoE), to be located on the lot closest to Public Square, probably won't be open to the public either.” Pretty ironic to be publicly inaccessible on “Public” Square.

 

First thing’s first - I’m INCREDIBLY thankful of Sherwin Williams for demonstrating their commitment to Downtown and Cleveland. But. An opportunity to reshape seas of parking lots into a new urban district rarely occurs, and it must be done right. We only have 1 shot.

 

I understand that HQ planning is in the early stages and maybe the end results will be totally different than those reported here. Nevertheless, considering how these new buildings, uses and ground floors interact in the surrounding downtown context is of utmost importance. This is the missing tooth of Public Square, Downtown’s core of both its built & social environments. To have a front door on this important civic space that shuns the very “public” nature of it is unacceptable. This site calls for more, and frankly BETTER design.

 

I urge anyone with stakes in this (which should be ALL of us) - whether public officials, design team members, business/property owners, SHW staff, downtown/NEO residents, & those who just care about good city building/planning/design, to advocate for this HQ design to be done right. With a Public Square address, our city and our people deserve nothing less.

 

To reiterate: We can't bash SHW and make them feel unwelcomed for their decision to stay rooted in their hometown. But we can't let them use this "hometown hero" leverage to weasel their way around putting forth a transformative development that will change - and improve - the heart of downtown for generations to come. The commitment to SHW of staying in downtown is incredibly meaningful and cannot be overlooked, but this should not make them immune to pushback on designs that create such an isolated, restricted and frankly just bad urban presence on downtown's most prime remaining real estate.

In this Age of Misinformation...all of this could be just that.

 

The information seems so completely and absolutely counter to everything that would make this a valuable addition to Clevelanders, PS and the WD.

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

I am less concern about lack of any retail given the fact those a huge swath of the Weston lot will be left to other developers according to Ken.  My biggest concern with the potential design is still the parking garage.  However, for all of you that are concerned about blank walls and the like, retail or not, I would check out some of Pickard Chilton's designs.  They are clearly a top notch firm and know what they are doing.  They recently posted a building on Instagram for Akamai Technologies on Kendall Square in Cambridge which I really like.

 

Bottom line, we really are only speculating at this point and probably won't know what we are getting for almost a year so, while it is fun to discuss and we should, for me it is really hard too criticize something I cannot see and has only been vaguely described by anonymous sources.  In any event I can tell it is going to be a long summer on this thread.

At the rate this project keeps spiraling down by the time it opens in 202? I'm afraid we'll end up with a giant cardboard box. I say we cut bait on the whole thing and turn those empty lots into a Walmart. From what I understand Walmart is very popular with the people. Problem solved.

16 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

My biggest concern with the potential design is still the parking garage. 

 

Living wall or bust.

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by ASP1984

^^What do you mean spiraling down.  From day one the designs we have discussed have been speculation and our own fantasies often based on misinformation. It is not like Nucleus where we saw a rendering and concept right from the get go that was constantly revised and downscaled.

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Htsguy

^ Tongue in cheek Htsguy, tongue in cheek.

5 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

200 PS was designed and built as the HQ for Standard Oil of Ohio (acquired by BP), so a HQ building can have public access.

 

It can and has been done.

How long has BP been gone from that building? It’s been multi tenant for a long time now. Come on

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

Lol those acting like the SHW HQ is a waste of the property downtown = "......Yeahhhhhhhhhh but we really didn't give Case Keenum a shot." 

Preach!

30 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I am less concern about lack of any retail given the fact those a huge swath of the Weston lot will be left to other developers according to Ken.  My biggest concern with the potential design is still the parking garage.  However, for all of you that are concerned about blank walls and the like, retail or not, I would check out some of Pickard Chilton's designs.  They are clearly a top notch firm and know what they are doing.  They recently posted a building on Instagram for Akamai Technologies on Kendall Square in Cambridge which I really like.

 

Bottom line, we really are only speculating at this point and probably won't know what we are getting for almost a year so, while it is fun to discuss and we should, for me it is really hard too criticize something I cannot see and has only been vaguely described by anonymous sources.  In any event I can tell it is going to be a long summer on this thread.

 

 

totally disagree about pickard. they are not a top notch firm, they are solidly middle of the road at best. what they do is bland glass boxes. there is no mixed material or interesting design or anything, its all just ... ok.  i see no history of handling a multi building campus site. yes the akamai is nice and right for the cle sites -- its the best they got. what i am saying is this firm fits squarely in with these dull witted, walled off, suburbany office parkish corporate world indications we have been spooned so far. its actually worrisome, but hopefully its all just very preliminary, or even a clever outright pr ruse, and when unveiled it will end up being interactive and fine. however, we have seen enough so far that the city and press and everyone interested better be getting their big boy pants on and gearing up to push back at this!