14 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Well, even the south end of East 4th is for vehicular traffic to get to the valet parking  station. So maybe something similar can happen.

 

Do you want your employees walking down a bare, narrow alley to go to and from West 6th? Should this get built out? I have a hard time thinking someone on the development team would overlook this. 

 

Frankfort is not a narrow alley---its a three-lane street, one lane of which is used for parking. Please do not advocate for more street closures or the privatization of city streets.

1 hour ago, PoshSteve said:

The cut out and the line that goes through the office tower footprint makes me think its going to be some sort of podium with the vast majority of "glass box" tower along W3rd. What is the square footage of the part of the box to the right of the cutout/line? Or is that the area that was already calculated by @Geowizical for your estimates?

 

So the area tacked on to the main tower box gives you another 13k sqft. Keep in mind though, that when you think about buildings these days, the size of that "side piece" would probably not go up more than like 5 floors, so my "professional opinion" is that this is essentially part of a short base, hence I didn't really figure it heavily into my calculations. Proof of this would be a simple glance at Pickard Chilton's website, where we see that they rarely do highrises on bases, and if they do, those bases are usually only 5 stories or so tall and not massive by any means (again, exceptions exist).

 

Long story short, for anyone worried about floor count because of the base, I still think 30 floors is reasonable/expected - especially considering the tower might not fill up the whole blue box shown.

Edited February 20, 20214 yr by Geowizical

4 hours ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

@KJP Do those areas for future development/expansion have anything to do with the rumored spin off developments the HQ is supposed to catalyze?

 

Yes. They are intended for the expansion of the types of land uses already common in much of the Warehouse District -- low- to mid-rise mixed-use buildings with restaurants/cafes/shops on the ground floors and offices, housing or lodging above.

 

4 hours ago, DO_Summers said:

Ooh - A color changing tower -- sort of like the Terminal Tower LED light displays only in the daytime.   Active color coatings.   Now, we are cooking with gas! 

Maybe a "shape-shifting" tower is the next consideration?  Good things happen to he/she/they who waits.   

 

   

 

I've heard that something is considered for the top of the building.

 

4 hours ago, marty15 said:

Well, even the south end of East 4th is for vehicular traffic to get to the valet parking  station. So maybe something similar can happen.

 

Do you want your employees walking down a bare, narrow alley to go to and from West 6th? Should this get built out? I have a hard time thinking someone on the development team would overlook this. 

 

You're going to be very disappointed. The design team considers Frankfort an alley -- essentially a service drive. The "notch" in the back of the HQ building is going to be SHW's loading dock. Look at how things are are designed at BOK Park Plaza. They are copying a lot of features from that, including how they use the alley just north of BOK.

 

3 hours ago, Geowizical said:

 

So the area tacked on to the main tower box gives you another 13k sqft. Keep in mind though, that when you think about buildings these days, the size of that "side piece" would probably not go up more than like 5 floors, so my "professional opinion" is that this is essentially part of a short base, hence I didn't really figure it heavily into my calculations. Proof of this would be a simple glance at Pickard Chilton's website, where we see that they rarely do highrises on bases, and if they do, those bases are usually only 5 stories or so tall and not massive by any means (again, exceptions exist).

 

Long story short, for anyone worried about floor count because of the base, I still think 30 floors is reasonable/expected - especially considering the tower might not fill up the whole blue box shown.

 

The design team had a healthy debate about the height. A massing concept they were working with got them a building that was 30-32 floors. They debated on getting more height out of it. Some wanted to get much higher but the team apparently settled on something in the 34- to 35-story range. Again, this is before C-suite executives have had a chance to chime in, however. They could change it dramatically, a little bit or not at all. 

48 minutes ago, KJP said:

The design team had a healthy debate about the height. A massing concept they were working with got them a building that was 30-32 floors. They debated on getting more height out of it. Some wanted to get much higher but the team apparently settled on something in the 34- to 35-story range. Again, this is before C-suite executives have had a chance to chime in, however. They could change it dramatically, a little bit or not at all. 

 

The PPG bldg in Pittsburg is 635 ft, 40-stories.  From this perspective, I hope the SHW execs will recognize that and build their building at least 700 feet and at least 45 stories.....(at least someone who can reach them should tell them so!)

I'm definitely with @Pugu on the "beat Pittsburgh"  sentiment, lol - even though it doesn't seem likely at the moment.  But if @KJP's usually accurate reporting holds true, we have reason to think we can get a 35 story building, which just might edge it up to the 4th tallest in the city, especially if there's any decorative crown.   As for color, the possibilities are potentially dramatic if SW decides they want to make a statement. - at least, by night. Dallas' Bank of America is the icon in their skyline (it's also the tallest, which helps) but even less vertical high rises (our new Hilton comes to mind) elevate their presence at night via lighting.  Come on, SW - be creative!  

Edited February 20, 20214 yr by CleveFan

1 hour ago, CleveFan said:

I'm definitely with @Pugu on the "beat Pittsburgh"  sentiment, lol - even though it doesn't seem likely at the moment.  But if @KJP's usually accurate reporting holds true, we have reason to think we can get a 35 story building, which just might move edge it up to the 4th tallest in the city, especially if there's any decorative crown.   As for color, the possibilities are potentially dramatic if SW decides they want to make a statement. - at least, by night. Dallas' Bank of America is the icon in their skyline (it's also the tallest, which helps) but even less vertical high rises (our new Hilton comes to mind) elevate their presence at night via lighting.  Come on, SW - be creative!  

 

For the record, I have no beef with Pittsburgh---it was more about a rival paint company. Then again, Glidden Paint---a Cleveland company--moved to Pittsburgh--and then became part of PPG, so maybe it is partly a Pittsburgh thing!

Edited February 20, 20214 yr by Pugu

I would love to see the crown of the SWH lit as a nod to a color swatch booklet that can subtly change during the seasons.

4 hours ago, dave2017 said:

I would love to see the crown of the SWH lit as a nod to a color swatch booklet that can subtly change during the seasons.

Or maybe have the lighting coincide with SW's "Year in Color" promotion, where they advertise a different color every month. Although I could imagine certain shades, like neutrals and earth tones, may be difficult to reproduce with LED lighting.

Edited February 20, 20214 yr by RoabeArt
Added link.

It never occurred to them that if all buildings were wall-to-wall glass like their headquarters, Sherman-Williams would go bankrupt. Maybe they lost sight of it, but they do sell paint...

Edited February 20, 20214 yr by David

8 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

For the record, I have no beef with Pittsburgh---it was more about a rival paint company. Then again, Glidden Paint---a Cleveland company--moved to Pittsburgh--and then became part of PPG, so maybe it is partly a Pittsburgh thing!

Glidden didnt move to Pittsburgh. Glidden was purchased by ICI in '96.  Akzo bought ICI in '08, PPG bought Akzo in '13

34 minutes ago, David said:

It never occurred to them that if all buildings were wall-to-wall glass like their headquarters, Sherman-Williams would go bankrupt. Maybe they lost sight of it, but they do sell paint...

 

They should make a clapboard sided skyscraper, with residential windows and a shingle roof.  I'm thinking a 35 story bungalow, really.  Can I get a rendering?

4 hours ago, mack34 said:

Glidden didnt move to Pittsburgh. Glidden was purchased by ICI in '96.  Akzo bought ICI in '08, PPG bought Akzo in '13

 

Thanks. I didn't know that. Digging further, it seems at the time of the ICI purchase, Glidden itself was owned by Hanson Trust, a UK holding company, which had purchased Glidden from a company called SCM Corp.

 

"Imperial Chemical Industries has purchased most of the paint, coatings, resins, and adhesives business of Cleveland-based Glidden from the U.K. holding company Hanson Trust for $580 million in cash. The acquisition not only makes ICI the biggest single paint producer in the world but substantially increases the British giant's presence in the North American marketplace. Glidden, a former subsidiary of SCM Corp., was included in Hanson Trust's purchase of SCM earlier this year."

 

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/cen-v064n034.p004#:~:text=Imperial Chemical Industries has purchased,for %24580 million in cash.

I’m just excited for this development. Definitely is going to bring a completely big feel to the Downtown Cleveland area. 

10 minutes ago, osu4brutus03 said:

I’m just excited for this development. Definitely is going to bring a completely big feel to the Downtown Cleveland area. 

 

It's exciting to think that it's possible that all those gaps in downtown could soon be filled. 

Seems like a very reasonable site plan with the confusing exception of Jacobs Lot.

 

But stepping back, I am still so glad they are staying put and investing locally and gobbling up these parking lots. 
 

That little center on PS will probably be here for the foreseeable future, and  it definitely doesn’t strike me as an ideal use for that parcel. But if we ever get to the point where that is our biggest problem as a city, we’re doing ok.

44 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Seems like a very reasonable site plan with the confusing exception of Jacobs Lot.

 

But stepping back, I am still so glad they are staying put and investing locally and gobbling up these parking lots. 
 

That little center on PS will probably be here for the foreseeable future, and  it definitely doesn’t strike me as an ideal use for that parcel. But if we ever get to the point where that is our biggest problem as a city, we’re doing ok.

Like many, once it became known that SHW purchased the Jacobs lot, I assumed we'd be returning to the more enclosed feeling of public square, encircled by 4 tall towers.  "Confusing" rings true to me, because I'm having a hard time imagining how things will feel with the main tower set back along 3rd as opposed to right up on the square.  But it will no doubt be a vast improvement over the crater as it stands today, and as it has stood for 30 years.   With the stated desire to break ground in Q4, I imagine we'll see renderings before too long.  Hopefully Pickard has something special in the works.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The tower portion of 200 PS is set back from the East Roadway almost half the width of the Jacobs lot, so I think the SW tower could have something like a similar impact on the Square if it's at least in the mid-30 story height range.  It's this little learning center/amenity that bothers me.  The old courthouse opposite is a very generous 4 stories and the "amenity" may not match it; that will be a serious imbalance.  The "amenity" had better be pretty spectacular in its own right; and if it isn't a serious crowd-magnet (open to the public at least on the ground level) it doesn't deserve the site.

On 2/19/2021 at 2:14 PM, Geowizical said:

 

Based on the release today, taking the floorplan of the tower literally from the drawings I calculated 32.5k sqft per floor.... 1 million / 32.5k = 30 floors.

30 floors x 15-16 ceilings = 450-480 ft (not new info really).

However, we shouldn't assume the sizes blocked out in this rendering will be the floorplan size of the tower - they could be smaller or larger depending on how high they want to go and given that they are still hashing out tower specifics... I would say though that something higher than 35 stories is unlikely, based on all of the previous info we've seen. Could we get to 500 ft. with a crown? Potentially

 

Right, we don’t know any details which could be a building with base + floors at 32500 sf then taper or step-backs as the tower rises thereby increasing the number of floors and height.

 

Edited February 22, 20214 yr by CLENYC

Brain blast here. What if the Center for excellence or whatever its called on Public Square will be built to hold a future high-rise like 515 Euclid was for Beacon? I wouldn't be surprised at that idea because it allows for expansion which for Sherwin Williams seems inevitable.

Or it could easily be sacrificed to a high-rise someday. Not saying that that is the plan but to a big company like Sherwin-Williams, $20 million spent on a learning center is a potential placeholder for something greater 30 years from now.

I would like to believe that, but it doesn't really make sense.  They're moving the HQ now.  If they wanted to put something great on that site, this would be the time.

It simply seems senseless to purchase the Jacob's site and not put a substantial building on it. SW could have achieved its HQ objective on the Weston lots, if that's where they were ultimately going to develop the HQ building.

yeah its hard to imagine what they are thinking with such an underbuild on the prime lot in the whole city.

 

i just don't undertand why they don't partner with a hotel to bump it up.

 

they want a new high end hotel anyway -- and that would be a great site to do it. 

19 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

yeah its hard to imagine what they are thinking with such an underbuild on the prime lot in the whole city.

 

i just don't undertand why they don't partner with a hotel to bump it up.

 

they want a new high end hotel anyway -- and that would be a great site to do it. 

It will be slightly more setback than the BP tower and it will allow sunlight onto the square because of the gap created. Doesn't seem like a problem to me. 

^ true light is one saving grace.

 

i wasnt even thinking a tower honestly, it could be lowrise, just enough hotel height/width to replace the prior buildings that were there. and for more of a presence to re-close up the square.

A hotel of 10-15 stories would look good on that lot.

On 2/22/2021 at 9:02 AM, KJP said:

Or it could easily be sacrificed to a high-rise someday. Not saying that that is the plan but to a big company like Sherwin-Williams, $20 million spent on a learning center is a potential placeholder for something greater 30 years from now.

And MAYBE they are thinking and planning for the long term like what Comcast did in Philadelphia by building a series of HQ Towers over a number of years as needed as their number of HQ employees grew.

 

I could easily see SHW build HQ Tower # 2 on top of their new massive parking garage in ten+ years.  And then build HQ Tower # 3 on the Jacobs lot in 20+ years from now.  There by getting a good 20+ years use of a three story Training Center.

 

And assuming they use ground leases for the developable land along West 6 and also St. Clair to keep control of the property then can always use that land in the distance future for even more HQ Towers.

 

Of course they will also have the option to build office towers in the Brecksville R&D Complex for back office positions to save money...

 

https://comcastcentercampus.com/campus/

 

^^^

Our uniquely accessible, five-building urban campus hosts 9,000 of our nearly 200,000 workers and is an integral part of the dynamic community that surrounds it. Designed not only to shape the city skyline but also to reflect our corporate culture and our future-forward vision, our headquarters are where new ideas and innovations come to life.

Edited February 23, 20214 yr by Larry1962
Typos and more details and links.

Comcast in Philly - now that’s an urban campus! And an interesting comparison. Comcast leases 1.1 million square feet in their 58 story building - not the whole building, but roughly 90%. 
 

Recently,  back in this thread - someone had asked for examples of corporate HQs that were in mixed usage situations- well, Comcast Centre tower is one.   It includes a restaurant and some retail in addition to a couple other smaller firms leasing the remaining space. 
 

What the SW “base building” is going to look like is fascinating - but what becomes of the parcels reserved for future usage is equally important. 
 

I know a comparison to the Comcast campus is a heavy lift - but Let’ s hope that the SW campus ultimately yields more big news in the years to come. 

Edited February 23, 20214 yr by CleveFan

Granted I'm sure how the tower looks in the skyline is not the most important reason they are constructing a new HQ, I wonder if given, what may be a relatively slight stature of this tower, they are setting it back to separate it from the taller towers? A tower right on the "Jacobs" lot buts it right behind the Terminal Tower when looking from the South East, even though from other perspectives it will still be seen. Just a thought.

 

Building taller on the Jacobs lot is always an option as long as they own the land, but maybe the thought is to make Public Square feel part of the HQ "Campus" and part of that is to blend their tower and the square together with whatever this building will be on the square? Just another thought.

IIRC, SW was drilling down to bedrock in the PS lot around a year or so ago.  I guess we'll find out what their future plans are for the Jacobs lot depending on what foundation they put under the CoE.  Fingers crossed.  

14 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Comcast in Philly - now that’s an urban campus! And an interesting comparison. Comcast leases 1.1 million square feet in their 58 story building - not the whole building, but roughly 90%. 
 

Recently,  back in this thread - someone had asked for examples of corporate HQs that were in mixed usage situations- well, Comcast Centre tower is one.   It includes a restaurant and some retail in addition to a couple other smaller firms leasing the remaining space. 
 

What the SW “base building” is going to look like is fascinating - but what becomes of the parcels reserved for future usage is equally important. 
 

I know a comparison to the Comcast campus is a heavy lift - but Let’ s hope that the SW campus ultimately yields more big news in the years to come. 

Although a bit different from the SW site, the Comcast Campus is excellent.  The public plaza on JFK Blvd works really well.  There is, or was, talk of a 3rd Comcast building. let’s not forget the below grade food court and direct access to the pedway and Suburban Station for regional rail as well as access to trolleys and subways. 
 

The 1120’ technology skyscraper (opened in late 2019) is topped with a Four Seasons Hotel.

 

SW designers need to look at the Comcast Campus.  SW has more contiguous open land to work with while Comcast is interwoven with existing buildings, which, being integrated in the street fabric, is why it works so well.

 

We don’t want SW to be a fortress development. Hopefully CLE sees a hotel in the SW mix.

Edited February 23, 20214 yr by CLENYC

19 minutes ago, CLENYC said:

 

We don’t want SW to be a fortress development. Hopefully CLE sees a hotel in the SW mix.

While I would like to see more height, which a possibility of a hotel in the mix COULD do.  I would think that if there were to be a hotel in the mix it would have its own footprint in the "future development" area of the acquired property.   Not that I would prefer that, I just think SW would...

25 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

While I would like to see more height, which a possibility of a hotel in the mix COULD do.  I would think that if there were to be a hotel in the mix it would have its own footprint in the "future development" area of the acquired property.   Not that I would prefer that, I just think SW would...

Right, whatever configuration works.  More to point out that a hotel would give the SW campus good integration whether a free standing one or like Philly Comcast added atop a building (the Four Seasons there has the highest hotel rooms in the U.S.).

23 hours ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

IIRC, SW was drilling down to bedrock in the PS lot around a year or so ago.  I guess we'll find out what their future plans are for the Jacobs lot depending on what foundation they put under the CoE.  Fingers crossed.  

It's also possible that the findings from this drilling ultimately led to them moving the tower back just due to the nature of the soil / bedrock composition on that site vs the other one.

So the HQ Tower will literally be directly across the street from the ballroom of the Sheraton-Cleveland, Stouffers' Tower City Hotel, Renaissance-Cleveland, or whatever it's called these days, but they want to add a hotel to the HQ site as well?

Edited February 25, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

27 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So the HQ Tower will literally be directly across the street from the ballroom of the Sheraton-Cleveland, Stouffers' Tower City Hotel, Renaissance-Cleveland, or whatever it's called these days, but they want to add a hotel to the HQ site as well?

And? How many big cities have that density of hotels that close to all their downtown office space? All of them probably? Plus the Renaissance needs a renovation. It'll probably get one, but who knows when.

2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So the HQ Tower will literally be directly across the street from the ballroom of the Sheraton-Cleveland, Stouffers' Tower City Hotel, Renaissance-Cleveland, or whatever it's called these days, but they want to add a hotel to the HQ site as well?

There’s been recent rumors of a hotel development on the long vacant W St Clair section of the block now owned by SW. 

 

The doomed Ameritrust project on the PS parcel included a Hyatt Regency hotel and its ballroom atop the garage planned for the W 3rd lot, the Hyatt-ballroom directly across the street from The Renaissance.  
 

The Ameritrust project, more than a rumor, allowed SW to step in (30 years later) for its HDQs so perhaps a hotel could be in the mix someday.

^ Given the current state of travel, hospitality and tourism, even in the hottest markets, I wouldn't anticipate any hotel development for many, many years to come.

Edited February 25, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

11 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said:

And? How many big cities have that density of hotels that close to all their downtown office space? All of them probably? Plus the Renaissance needs a renovation. It'll probably get one, but who knows when.

Let's be real!

 

We're not talking NYC, SFO, CHI, LAS, SAN, DFW, MIA, BOS, SEA, NOLA, IAH, DCA or LAX here. Even in high-demand cities, occupancies are not expected to improve for many years to come.

 

Didn't the city add four new downtown hotels for the RNC five years ago (Hilton, Westin, Drury Plaza, Schofield)? What's their occupancy these days?

Edited February 25, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

30 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Let's be real!

 

We're not talking NYC, SFO, CHI, LAS, SAN, DFW, MIA, BOS, SEA, NOLA, IAH, DCA or LAX here. Didn't the city add four new downtown hotels for the RNC five years ago (Hilton, Westin, Drury Plaza, Schofield)? What's their occupancy these days?

Hey look what I found

^ From March, 2020 (Pre-SARS-CoV-2 Pandemic). What's the current status?

Edited February 25, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

^ From March, 2020 (Pre-SARS-CoV-2 Pandemic). What's the current status.

Temporary 

50 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

^ Given the current state of travel, hospitality and tourism, even in the hottest markets, I wouldn't anticipate any hotel development for many, many years to come.

I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. The hospitality market and financing for new projects is starting to loosen across the country, and in Cleveland there are many hotels in the planning stages. It’s about creating a destination, not just having another Hampton inn. This should be moved to the hotel thread as to not derail the SHW conversation. 

We can refer back 5-10 years from now.

5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

We can refer back 5-10 years from now.

dude you're going to get this thread locked again, talk about this in the hotel thread.

2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Let's be real!

 

We're not talking NYC, SFO, CHI, LAS, SAN, DFW, MIA, BOS, SEA, NOLA, IAH, DCA or LAX here. Even in high-demand cities, occupancies are not expected to improve for many years to come.

 

Didn't the city add four new downtown hotels for the RNC five years ago (Hilton, Westin, Drury Plaza, Schofield)? What's their occupancy these days?

Obviously reviewing occupancy in 2021 does not make sense given what had happened over the last year. SW is probably looking towards the future which will be different than it is in February 2021 and hopefully gets back on he trajectory it was in December 2019. 

 

Columbus is getting a huge new tower for their Hilton and Cleveland only has the Hilton as a true convention hotel. The others are small. If SW will be having people come in for training why wouldn't they want a brand new Hiltonesque hotel on site?

 

Sherwin-Williams has been in its current headquarters building for 91 years and it still has a couple more years to go with it. I don't know if Sherwin-Williams is going to be in its next headquarters for another 90 years but it's certainly going to be in there for decades. So whatever they're considering has to take some sense of longevity and forward thinking into account. And considering that Sherwin-Williams is moving its training from the suburbs to downtown Cleveland they are going to need more lodging space.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

So whatever they're considering has to take some sense of longevity and forward thinking into account.

Agreed, over the long haul.

39 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Agreed, over the long haul.

That’s been the underlying theme about a hotel in the SW mix...maybe over the long haul.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Sherwin-Williams has been in its current headquarters building for 91 years and it still has a couple more years to go with it. I don't know if Sherwin-Williams is going to be in its next headquarters for another 90 years but it's certainly going to be in there for decades. So whatever they're considering has to take some sense of longevity and forward thinking into account. And considering that Sherwin-Williams is moving its training from the suburbs to downtown Cleveland they are going to need more lodging space.

 

Doesn't Sherwin Williams have a real estate "arm?"

 

Considering they own the Landmark Office Towers, I imagine they probably would have to, no?  It makes sense to me that they would be thinking of more than just their headquarters buildings.