1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

There is already a walkway (under street level) from the TT to the State Office Bldg. 

 

All they have to do is hang an enclosed walkway under Superior to tie into it.

 

The State Office bldg isn’t across Superior.

It's solid earth below Superior. No voids except for utilities. The only broader excavation done below Superior was for the four-track-wide streetcar ramp west of West 6th to West 9th to the lower level of the Detroit-Superior bridge. That was filled in in the late 1950s. There is also a large sewer below Superior that was replaced on the same section in the last couple of years. East of West 6th, there never was any hollowing out of the underside of Superior. There was south of it for the Union Terminal tracks, but not below Superior. 

Edited September 6, 20195 yr by KJP

On 9/4/2019 at 8:04 PM, Geowizical said:

Thanks to @KJP for using my Sketchup renderings in today's blog post! It's great to know they're being put to good use in order to stir the Sherwin-Williams paint can, so to speak ?

 

Speaking of stirring the paint can...

 

First I presented the 1000+ option, for the those who'd like to build it big and build it supertall...

Now I must to present the other option, for those who'd like to build it dense with many, slightly shorter buildings...

 

At the request of @YABO713, here it is: the alternative package to the 1000+ option.

This brand-spanking-new package features:

• 750 ft HQ building
• 430 ft HQ or R&D building
• 330 ft R&D building

and as an added bonus:

• More green-space for downtown!
• The great modern campus feel you know and love from your college days!
• Potential room for retail, lifestyle, and other entertainment options!
• Invisible walkways! (or they could just be underground!)
• No depressing parking lots of misery!

 

 

 

Nice attempt at designing the SW skyline. It is much better than the 1,000 foot edition. However.. skylines are rarely designed. Instead they represent multitudes of decisions by multitudes of investors over multitudes of time. Each decision is made in the vacuum of the investors needs, situation, and knowledge When you put it all together, you can only hope for the best - or you just get used to it. In this case, assuming the complex is going downtown, we can only hope for the best. My only hope is that the tallest building gets a pointed top. 

I would personally prefer the taller option @Geowizical provided (thank you btw). Not necessarily becuase of the skyline presence but becuase that would be a single use taking up the Public Square lot as well as all of the super block next door. That's a huge area. I get the desire to knock both of those lots out in one swing, long term though I feel it would be better if that didn't happen. This is obviously all fantasy at this point, still fun to think about.

9 hours ago, gottaplan said:

somewhat unrelated but curious where this leaves the Brecksville VA site.  They have a huge amount of space to fill, approx 100 acres.  Most recent site plan showed retail and hotel/conf center at the southern third along Miller Road....  with remaining two thirds as open to a "large corporate user..."   

 

Just for the heck of it, S-W and PPG are both dwarfed by BASF—which granted is much more than a coatings company—but is still a coatings company. BASF’s headquarters is an integrated campus using BASF’s Verbund concept, where byproducts and energy flows of one process are seamless transferred into feedstocks of other operations. Altogether, it is home to about 2,500 acres and ~40,000 workers.

 

I could see that as a valuable use of the VA site. 

6 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

I could see that as a valuable use of the VA site. 

Agreed.  BASF should relocate their HQ to Cuyahoga County.

So here's another example of Sherwin-Williams' growth and strength.... What is the percent growth of each? Also, notice how SHW's share price has largely ignored the economic downturns of the last 40 years....

 

 

Throughout the history of SHW, they've never closed a store. Think about that one...

12 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

Throughout the history of SHW, they've never closed a store. Think about that one...

And now they’re in every Lowe’s.

23 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

Throughout the history of SHW, they've never closed a store. Think about that one...

 

So...the Market Square project has to die?

5 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

So...the Market Square project has to die?

Couldn’t we just “relocate” that store to a ground floor retail space in Market Square to preserve that unblemished record? ?

1 minute ago, CCC said:

Couldn’t we just “relocate” that store to a ground floor retail space in Market Square to preserve that unblemished record? ?

That’s probably what’ll happen. When they tore down the plaza in Lakewood at Madison and Warren for the Walgreens, SHW relocated and built a standalone store across the street.

25 minutes ago, marty15 said:

And now they’re in every Lowe’s.

And on Robert's walls in Miami.

Edited September 6, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

12 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

So...the Market Square project has to die?

 

That store is relocating westward down Lorain. I can't remember if it's going to the new development at West 41st or 44th.

23 hours ago, Mendo said:

 

You mean CrossCountry Mortgage? Their president said earlier this year the leading properties are the old VA site and a site in Midtown. That Midtown parcel was bought earlier this year by an investor group that their president is a part of.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/01/investors-buy-6-acre-block-at-downtown-clevelands-eastern-edge-for-development-possible-corporate-hq.html

 

The Cross Country mortgage operation on Miller Road is busting at the seams.  They already park cars on the VA property because they can't fit on their own.  I honestly don't think they can wait the 2+ years it will take to get new construction ready for them.  And the rent will be double what they currently pay in that low rise flex building.  And mortgage businesses aren't typically seen as top credit tenants for an office building - they tend to be boom/bust.

 

23 hours ago, marty15 said:

DeGeronimo has a sweetheart deal with that site. He basically paid a small fee to hold the option to develop it, and he would only have to pay for small parcels at a time, or as it builds out, should it ever. 

 The DiGeronimo's did get a nice deal on that land but it's not as great as you think.  They paid upfront to do all the demo & abatement.  Even self-performing the work, that's at least a $3-$4 million job and maybe even $5 million.  

 

The real deal will be when Brecksville passes a massive TIF to add the new ring road, additional ramps at Miller/I-77, etc etc

On 9/5/2019 at 12:15 PM, gottaplan said:

somewhat unrelated but curious where this leaves the Brecksville VA site.  They have a huge amount of space to fill, approx 100 acres.  Most recent site plan showed retail and hotel/conf center at the southern third along Miller Road....  with remaining two thirds as open to a "large corporate user..."   

 

Make it into a park.

If there still was an Ikea in our future.....

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

???????

6 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

???????

Very Very interesting. I like the other location more though.

I've also heard from a usually reliable source that SHW was considering locating at the Justice Center. But the source discounted it because the county is years from building a new Justice Center and jails.

15 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

???????

Clearly a result of Sherwin Williams newly initiated mis-information campaign in response to @KJP's blog post.?

 

18 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Very Very interesting. I like the other location more though.

 

Ditto. Not sure how I feel about this, those PS parking lots need to gooooooooooooooooo (same with nuCLEus site, but those can go after the other's are filled in...but I digress..)

 

Regardless of my opinion, thanks for the insight @John D. Baumgardner!

Wow. So that leaves the Jacobs lot for the Justice center, which would be ideal, transit wise.

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Clearly a result of Sherwin Williams newly initiated mis-information campaign in response to @KJP's blog post.?

 

We laugh, but that could actually be a legitimate possibility, seeing how much they're willing to make sure none of their employees say a single word regarding the situation...

 

I don't think anyone on this board would be 100% satisfied with anything other than 26 Public Square as the new address for SW, but it's not our decision to make.

1 hour ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

???????

Doesn’t make sense to me - a project the size of the SW headquarters wouldn’t fit into Nucleus, it would simply  replace it at its location -  don’t think the two projects are compatible given the large residential component of Nucleus.  And though the Nucleus site is very attractive, I can think of no more prestigious site for a landmark Cleveland corporate giant than  Public Square.  I tend to agree with the Htsguy misinformation theory! 

Edited September 6, 20195 yr by CleveFan
Content

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I don't think anyone on this board would be 100% satisfied with anything other than 26 Public Square as the new address for SW, but it's not our decision to make.

 

I think I’d be fine if they filled the whole Weston block instead. 

18 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

I think I’d be fine if they filled the whole Weston block instead. 

...as part of their "urban campus."

4 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Doesn’t make sense to me - a project the size of the SW headquarters wouldn’t fit into Nucleus, it would simply  replace it at its location -  don’t think the two projects are compatible given the large residential component of Nucleus.  And though the Nucleus site is very attractive, I can think of no more prestigious site for a landmark Cleveland corporate giant than  Public Square.  I tend to agree with the Htsguy misinformation theory! 

Good question, what's the size of Jacob's lot and nuCLEus lots?

 

And is there enough space for a large SHW HQ tower and a apartment tower including parking and a CLEVELAND LIVE entertainment complex on the nuCLEus lots?

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by Larry1962

12 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

Good question, what's the size of Jacob's lot and nuCLEus lots?

And is there enough space for a large SHW HQ tower and a apartment tower including parking and a CLEVELAND LIVE entertainment complex?

Wait a minute Bumgartner's rumor is SWH on Nucleus Lot along with Nucleus Apartment tower

I don't think he ever says that in the original post.

There’s plenty of room there. Especially once the parking garage and the Alberts building are gone. Probably at least twice the size of the Jacobs lot. Could also link to their existing parking from there. There’s already the underground walkway from RMF to TC there.

 

Would make for great advertising 81+ days a year, but block @Terdolph ‘s view from his loge seats down the right field line. 

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by marty15

The nuCLEus site is around 3 acres. The Jacobs lot on Public Square is 1.2 acres. Whether that's enough depends on how tall they are willing to go. I think that's why everybody is thinking it would be a joint venture on the adjacent Weston lots.

28 minutes ago, Mendo said:

The nuCLEus site is around 3 acres. The Jacobs lot on Public Square is 1.2 acres. Whether that's enough depends on how tall they are willing to go. I think that's why everybody is thinking it would be a joint venture on the adjacent Weston lots.

Maybe Stark’s Nucleus delay is because he’s dusting off the original 54-story Jenga tower design with the sky bridge and using that as the starting point for SW? The location would make some sense, though I’m thinking we’d all prefer a Public Square/Weston lots location.

If any of this is true would SW buy this property from Stark and hire their own developer or use Stark as the developer? His track record doing anything of this scale is unknown, to be kind.

If SW does pick the PS location, is the Jacobs Group assumed to be the developer? Or would they purchase the lot and develop it themselves (the RFQ sent out)?

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by CleCaneFan

I doubt that SW would risk putting the development of their HQ in the hands of a relatively inexperienced developer. They'd probably purchase the property outright and hire an experienced developer, provided Stark doesn't predicate the sale on inclusion of the 310 Bldg.

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

12 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

Throughout the history of SHW, they've never closed a store. Think about that one...

They closed one over off west 117th near the i90 freeway entrance a few months ago.. 

21 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Terdolph would be satisfied if all of it went on the W 3rd. Parking lots.

Speaking in third person now yikes 

7 hours ago, G00pie said:

They closed one over off west 117th near the i90 freeway entrance a few months ago.. 

 

Fake news. There was never a SHW store on w117, bud. 

He's thinking of the one at West 117th, Bellaire and I-71. It looked closed to me the last time I went by it.

35 minutes ago, KJP said:

He's thinking of the one at West 117th, Bellaire and I-71. It looked closed to me the last time I went by it.

yes, it is closed..  they tore it all out and its being replaced.. 

45 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Fake news. There was never a SHW store on w117, bud. 

not sure this was needed..  i just forgot the cross street but the statement holds true,  bud.

21 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I don't think anyone on this board would be 100% satisfied with anything other than 26 Public Square as the new address for SW, but it's not our decision to make.

https://images.app.goo.gl/6QqvG7FCNowqxrLH9

Why are Sherwin-Williams' Cleveland offices bursting at the seams? Because the company's growth is bursting at the seams......

 

Sherwin-Williams (SHW) Up 25% in 6 Months: What's Driving It?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sherwin-williams-shw-25-6-112711692.html

I'm thinking they're just gonna say screw the debt to equity ratio, I think they would do go for the beans around 1.5:1 - 1.2:1. If they're that resilient during recessions they should have no problems.

I think the challenge through all of this will be the cost of the property (ies). I'm hopeful that Jacob's and/or Weston won't get too greedy and impede sale of the property.

Honestly if you're this antsy for construction and architecture firms, while the secret isn't really a secret anymore, your debt to equity ratio shouldn't hamper your company's ambitions. I wouldn't be mad if they brought back ameritrust or if they just consider using the amazon renderings, SW needs a presence, and they sure as hell don't have one with living space in the Landmark. I feel that all this book keeping that has been put under lock and key is sort of discerning, although that was the case for the Amazon deal and I completely understand keeping a top secret file for bidding sake, I don't feel that it's necessary in this situation. We already know whats up, the secret is out there, and we are damn close to having this mega whale. If anyone has any material from the inside feel free, I enjoy every last bit of information that is put up in here. ?

Just received a cryptic text from another friend who is employed with Sherwin-Williams at their existing headquarters in Downtown Cleveland ...

 

See the screenshot I've attached. Evidently the CEO has reissued a GAG ORDER of sorts ... Telling company employees to basically shut tf up about any potential skyscraper!!!!!

 

Let the gnashing of teeth commence at once!

 

???

I love these juicy morsels.....