Honestly, I'd rather build the space for retail that may be filled a year down the line when the market may be ready for it than to build a blank wall that adds nothing to the street and is an extra and expensive cost to reverse just because we already have empty storefronts. These types of developments are one shot deals, there is no re-do for a LOOOOOONG time. Build for the long term vision of a neighborhood not the short sighted present day. 

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by MyPhoneDead

If retail is incorporated, the only streets that may support it would be W. 3rd & 6th, Frankfort and St. Clair. Superior is already a dead zone (Renaissance and garage on one side, parking crater on the other and a very wide Avenue in between the two); ever try crossing Superior there? Retail on the parking crater side of Superior would more than likely be unsuccessful.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

32 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If retail is incorporated, the only streets that may support it would be W. 6th, Frankfort and St. Clair. Superior is already a dead zone (Renaissance and garage on one side, parking crater on the other and a wide Avenue in between the two). Retail on the parking crater side of Superior would more than likely be unsuccessful.

 

Adding retail opposite the Reaissance and extending West is a plus for the community, downtown and the city as a whole.  This would eliminate/reduce a dead zone, one of the main reasons for adding neighborhood necessary retail at street level.  

4 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

Adding retail opposite the Reaissance and extending West is a plus for the community, downtown and the city as a whole.  This would eliminate/reduce a dead zone, one of the main reasons for adding neighborhood necessary retail at street level.  

It will still be a dead zone when there is nothing there on the ground floor. E9 & Euclid, Euclid where Chipotle is has a few vacancies in the last few years, there is literally nothing in Tower City or the Euclid Arcade, The Garfield on the E6 side has been vacant - since it's been built. Put something else in the ground floor because if it's retail, it'll be siting empty for years

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

^There's an easy solution:  stop building giant retail spaces. have a bunch of small ones.  Its a lot harder to find a tenant who needs 100,000 sq feet. --and that's less vibrant than 20 little shops/restaurants that are easier to rent and provides more interesting street lift to an area.

 

 

Unless they can reel in a long-term tenant like a City Target.   Public Square would be a great location for one. 

1 minute ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

It will still be a dead zone when there is nothing there on the ground floor. E9 & Euclid, Euclid where Chipotle is has a few vacancies in the last few years, there is literally nothing in Tower City or the Euclid Arcade, The Garfield on the E6 side has been vacant - since it's been built. Put something else in the ground floor because if it's retail, it'll be siting empty for years

To me, it’s all about what SW wants. I don’t want anything that’s going to be an impediment to them staying. If they’re ok with retail then fine. Maybe they can even have a flagship SW store there. But if it’s going to be an impediment to the most important thing (which is keeping them here) then it’s not worth it. Give SW what they want

If currently there are numerous vacant retail sites, especially in high traffic downtown areas, it will be a tough sell for new development.  That area however could use a grocery or convenience store.

32 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

Adding retail opposite the Reaissance and extending West is a plus for the community, downtown and the city as a whole.  This would eliminate/reduce a dead zone, one of the main reasons for adding neighborhood necessary retail at street level.  

It would still be a dead zone. W. Superior is not conducive to shopping.

2 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

To me, it’s all about what SW wants. I don’t want anything that’s going to be an impediment to them staying. If they’re ok with retail then fine. Maybe they can even have a flagship SW store there. But if it’s going to be an impediment to the most important thing (which is keeping them here) then it’s not worth it. Give SW what they want

And that is part of the problem.  If you go in with a "give them what they want", will they do what is best for them solely or will they do what is best for them, Cleveland going forward and the neighborhood they are HQd??

In today's world company's are socially conscientious.  I want a win-win for all

I would like to ask, who is OK with just another office tower that serves just one function?

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It would still be a dead zone. W. Superior is not conducive to shopping.

Today.  This is EXACTLY why change is needed.  Just because it's one way today, that does not mean - in any form - that the are cannot be transformed for future use.

I don't see why Sherwin Williams would be opposed to a mixed use tower. A tower on Public Square with a retail and hotel component would be great for their employees and clients that come to town.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by Mendo

27 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Unless they can reel in a long-term tenant like a City Target.   Public Square would be a great location for one. 

This is why Superior makes a good spot.  A larger retailer like that combined with 24 hour drug store, plus a social space like a pool hall, game room, that exits to Superior would be an issue facing Superior.  Add in social meeting spaces like a "paint and pour", cigar bar, 

 

What would be amazing, is if the SW, the city and County combined to make more that one move.  For example, in addition to the above, move WKYC and The Plain Dealer from their lake facing campuses to a multi company development, SW may own it all, but the PD has a branded entrance and WKYC has its own tower and street level studios that interact with pedestrians.  Studios, above the retail face Superior lighting up the street.  Now lakefront/lake facing property is available for development and public square is reinvigorated.

 

Perhaps by 2023-2026, the market will have changed to support such a mixed use development. With a downtown hotel surplus and numerous retail  vacancies, today's market doesn't support it. SW will not develop anything that doesn't make sense financially.

2 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

And that is part of the problem.  If you go in with a "give them what they want", will they do what is best for them solely or will they do what is best for them, Cleveland going forward and the neighborhood they are HQd??

In today's world company's are socially conscientious.  I want a win-win for all

I would like to ask, who is OK with just another office tower that serves just one function?

So let’s put a gun to their head and try to make them do it a certain way and then watch them walk out of the door. That’s stupid. It can be put on the table but it’s not as important as keeping them here 

Cleveland.com article on SW needs and considerations:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/09/what-sherwin-williams-will-consider-as-it-searches-for-a-new-headquarters-according-to-national-site-selectors.html

Retention of their 3K+ employees is high on the list along with talent. They also mention, as was mentioned upthread, airport hub status and how ATL, DFW and CLT have used their hub status to fuel growth. This continues to be a challenge and CLE being ranked as the 2nd worst medium-sized airport doesn't help matters. I've always found CLE to be a breeze, but I've mostly flown in/out of LGA, EWR and MIA, which are the worst of the worst.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

So let’s put a gun to their head and try to make them do it a certain way and then watch them walk out of the door. That’s stupid. It can be put on the table but it’s not as important as keeping them here 

I didn't say that nor imply it.  I think SW AND Cleveland can both get what they need.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by MyTwoSense

In my own personal opinion Cleveland Hopkins is in NO way the 2nd worse...  I fly almost weekly and its really a breeze -and while I would love more direct Delta flights, it works.  My company is headquartered in Grand Rapids, MI... try getting a flight to and from there on a convenient schedule.  Does anyone know how much travel Sherwin Williams employees do through Hopkins and what the key destinations would be?

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by mrclifton88

According to the article above:

 

"One category where Cleveland could lose some points, however, is its air service, several site-selection experts said. Sherwin-Williams operates some 4,900 facilities across the world and sells its products in 120 countries, so connectivity to international flights could be important.

“International air service really is a common denominator among cities attracting these types of trophy headquarters today,” said John Boyd, principal at New Jersey-based Boyd Co.

Being airport hubs is one reason cities such as Dallas and Atlanta frequently attract corporate headquarters, he said."

 

That being said, CLE has always had brief, convenient international connections through JFK/EWR and ORD.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

With Burke Lakefront Airport downtown, I assume that SHW has one or more jets based there which at least helps the C level executives with travel within the US.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by Larry1962

6 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

With Burke Lakefront Airport downtown, I assume that SHW has one or more jets based there which at least helps the C level executives with travel within the US.

 

I know the CEO/COO take the corporate plane.  i believe it's in their contract.

 

As a side note, SW also has a very lucrative Aviation paints and coatings division.

The easy access and proximity of BKL may be advantageous for the officers and could be a benefit of having a downtown CLE location. The rank & file however would be stuck with Hopkins, which would only be a 20 minute rapid ride from corporate.

 

Those "experts" from NJ however don't have an appreciation for how easy it is to get from downtown CLE to a major international city, via RTA, a short flight to O'hare or JFK, with a brief layover.

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

12 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It would still be a dead zone. W. Superior is not conducive to shopping.

 

I disagree with this. The amount of east-west traffic and north-south traffic through this area is incredible. Whether it’s business workers traversing a meeting at a neighboring firm or twenty somethings heading from FEB to Azure... there’s a lot of folks who would stop into a late-night pizza joint, a Trader Joe’s, a convenient store, a Cleveland Bagel, a Barnes and Noble, etc.

 

Not sure a S-W works given the lack of homeowners downtown, but sure!

"The amount of east-west traffic and north-south traffic through this area is incredible."

 

When you say "traffic" do you mean automobile traffic or pedestrian traffic?

*desperately trying to stay semi in topic* as part of an incentive package, could you see the city/county/state helping to subsidize a route or two to future higher growth markets for SW?

 

As part of an incentive package that would make it much more attractive, no?

22 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If retail is incorporated, the only streets that may support it would be W. 3rd & 6th, Frankfort and St. Clair. Superior is already a dead zone (Renaissance and garage on one side, parking crater on the other and a very wide Avenue in between the two); ever try crossing Superior there? Retail on the parking crater side of Superior would more than likely be unsuccessful.

Well to make an area vibrant that wasn't before (In this case Superior) you put something that gives people a reason to patronize the area. Literally right around the corner on W. 6th you have activity and shops and this could serve as development to build on that. TBH developments that sit on the corners and intersections of street are THE MOST necessary to have retail because they set the tone for an area. Since an area is already dead we shouldn't build something that changes that? We should add to the dead zone feel? The opposite should be happening if we are trying to create a true mixed used neighborhood for the future.

 

Retail spaces sit empty to me because the company in charge of finding retail in that area isn't skilled enough to answer the call and get people there. For example Uptown is bustling with shops and retail and HUGE work and living population with growth and Little Italy has the same and is always busy, but Centric has empty windows in it's retail shops. Prime location sitting next to two bustling areas but can't capitalize because the group in charge of finding retail tenants probably isn't up to the task. MRN consistently finds tenants for its retail properties, it is all about who is in charge. 

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by MyPhoneDead

1 hour ago, originaljbw said:

*desperately trying to stay semi in topic* as part of an incentive package, could you see the city/county/state helping to subsidize a route or two to future higher growth markets for SW?

 

As part of an incentive package that would make it much more attractive, no?

this is unnecessary, in my opinion. The C-suite is likely unaffected by any perceived inconvenience of KCLE as they can always have on-demand access to corporate aircraft out of KBKL. Furthermore, are we forgetting that KCLE is perfectly fine in terms of available domestic destinations? Hopkins is going to exceed 10 million pax this year which is incredible given the de-hubbing of United in 2014-2015 which currently puts Hopkins in the same category or higher as other midsized airports such as Pittsburgh or Indianapolis.  Not bad. 

 

Furthermore, which U.S. market with a Sherwin Williams corporate presence is currently underserved by KCLE?  Minneapolis?  There are about 10 roundtrip flights daily combined (KCLE-KMSP; KMSP-KCLE) between these two markets on Delta and Frontier, respectively.  Which other market? Chicago (home of SW's R&D Arthur Steudel Technical Center)? Just on United there are almost 20 roundtrip flights daily combined between here and Chicago. This is not even including American Airlines which also does a ton of business to ORD and Southwest, which of course flies into MDW.  My point with all of this is that Hopkins - despite its design flaws and aging infrastructure and the recent ignominious distinction given by JD Power & Associates - is perfectly sufficient to provide reliable, daily connections to any business-relevant city in this country with as little as two hops, max (assuming a direct does not exist).  Of course, we aren't talking about international, but that is the case for most Fortune 1000 companies.  How many Fortune 500 firms are based in Columbus? Tons. e.g. you don't see subsidized Columbus-LHR flights

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by NewtoCLE

One thing I think would be neat is if SHW had an interactive store/shop on the first floor of their HQ tower.  A place where they can sell some merchandise, but also have some interactive booths where people(adults) can paint small, somewhat quick paintings. But also some finger-painting booths for the kids, and a place where they can mix paint colors to learn what different color combinations make -- what kid wouldn't like that ?

 

Kind of like the M&M store on time square in NY.

 

I think that would be a great way for them to interact with the community while also providing some 1st floor activity for their building. 

Maybe we’ll get a new airport out this SHW deal. The JD Power report just helps build the case. Keeping SHW sells it. Rolls with the rumors I heard a few months ago. ???

31 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Maybe we’ll get a new airport out this SHW deal. The JD Power report just helps build the case. Keeping SHW sells it. Rolls with the rumors I heard a few months ago. ???

Do tell ?

11 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Do tell ?

That the old Ford casting plant site was being eyed for the location to build a replacement for the I-X Center, so the new airport could be constructed after I-X was/is demolished.

 

If local leaders were looking for a way to sell a new airport, this would probably be a solid angle. Especially in wake of the Amazon package.

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by marty15

29 minutes ago, marty15 said:

That the old Ford casting plant site was being eyed for the location to build a replacement for the I-X Center, so the new airport could be constructed after I-X was/is demolished.

 

If local leaders were looking for a way to sell a new airport, this would probably be a solid angle. Especially in wake of the Amazon package.

 

Who would rebuild the I-X Center, the city of Cleveland? If so, why would they build it in such a hostile to Cleveland place that is Brook Park?  Or are you talking by some other group just building a place like the I-X Center so the region would not be impacted if the city tears down the IX center?

 

7 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Who would rebuild the I-X Center, the city of Cleveland? If so, why would they build it in such a hostile to Cleveland place that is Brook Park?  Or are you talking by some other group just building a place like the I-X Center so the region would not be impacted if the city tears down the IX center?

 

No idea. That was the extent of what I was told. I imagine a new airport would be a regional, if not state involved push....  It’s all reckless speculation at this point. 

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Maybe we’ll get a new airport out this SHW deal. The JD Power report just helps build the case. Keeping SHW sells it. Rolls with the rumors I heard a few months ago. ???

 

It's already in the cards. 

 

The airport is currently soliciting a master plan consultant, to be awarded by the end of the year.  The consultant will have two years to recommend a plan. The city will take a year (or maybe two) to solicit a master contractor to build the recommendation, by which time the airport will have paid down its debt by another 200-300 million, giving it the borrowing power to build a $1+ billion new or totally rebuilt terminal in 2023-24. 

 

The process is already ongoing and probably can't be speeded up without extraordinary financial aid. Of course it could be delayed by opposition.

3 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

It's already in the cards. 

 

The airport is currently soliciting a master plan consultant, to be awarded by the end of the year.  The consultant will have two years to recommend a plan. The city will take a year (or maybe two) to solicit a master contractor to build the recommendation, by which time the airport will have paid down its debt by another 200-300 million, giving it the borrowing power to build a $1+ billion new or totally rebuilt terminal in 2023-24. 

 

The process is already ongoing and probably can't be speeded up without extraordinary financial aid. Of course it could be delayed by opposition.

Wow! Good to hear

Wait a minute, are you guys telling me that BKL or KCLE could be completely redone as a part of this entire SW deal? Is it SW doing this or is Cleveland just randomly spending fiscal money?

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by tastybunns

 

 

6 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

Wait a minute, are you guys telling me that BKL or KCLE could be completely redone as a part of this entire SW deal? Is it SW doing this or is Cleveland just randomly spending fiscal money?

 

No. I'm saying the airport terminal project was already underway before the SHW business came up.  The terminal probably isn't important to them anyway. More important than a glitzy terminal for Sherwin Williams is new air routes to domestic business centers.  Internationally, SHW's business is more Latin than European or Asian, so unless they move to Miami, international routes probably aren't important to them.

19 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

 

 

No. I'm saying the airport terminal project was already underway before the SHW business came up.  The terminal probably isn't important to them anyway. More important than a glitzy terminal for Sherwin Williams is new air routes to domestic business centers.  Internationally, SHW's business is more Latin than European or Asian, so unless they move to Miami, international routes probably aren't important to them.

 

just curious: which 'domestic business centers' of relevance to SHW are currently being underserved by the existing inventory of commercial flights out of KCLE? If a direct doesn't currently exist, most cities in the U.S. are still reachable from KCLE with a maximum of two hops. For cities with a direct SWH corporate presence (Minneapolis, Chicago, et al), there is significant direct service offered daily by competing carriers. What are the markets that SHW needs but are currently being under represented?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Hopkins_International_Airport

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by NewtoCLE

1 hour ago, Dougal said:

 

It's already in the cards. 

 

The airport is currently soliciting a master plan consultant, to be awarded by the end of the year.  The consultant will have two years to recommend a plan. The city will take a year (or maybe two) to solicit a master contractor to build the recommendation, by which time the airport will have paid down its debt by another 200-300 million, giving it the borrowing power to build a $1+ billion new or totally rebuilt terminal in 2023-24. 

 

The process is already ongoing and probably can't be speeded up without extraordinary financial aid. Of course it could be delayed by opposition.

 

"The city will take a year (or maybe two) to solicit a master contractor to build the recommendation"   No. The city HAS to do a plan. So it doesn't mean it wants to or is doing so in earnest because it wants to make things better. Its required to do a plan. And it is not required to implement any of it. Look at the giant new terminal and hotel built after the last master plan. I know there were changes like the economy and UA dehubbing, but there's no indication the airport was really going to do anything anyway. Even things they didn't even need a master plan to show---like cramped terminal conditions, poor FIS location, etc.--they didn't bother improving.

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by Pugu

Maybe some kind moderator will move this to the Hopkins thread. I don't know how.

9 hours ago, NewtoCLE said:

this is unnecessary, in my opinion. The C-suite is likely unaffected by any perceived inconvenience of KCLE as they can always have on-demand access to corporate aircraft out of KBKL. Furthermore, are we forgetting that KCLE is perfectly fine in terms of available domestic destinations? Hopkins is going to exceed 10 million pax this year which is incredible given the de-hubbing of United in 2014-2015 which currently puts Hopkins in the same category or higher as other midsized airports such as Pittsburgh or Indianapolis.  Not bad. 

 

Furthermore, which U.S. market with a Sherwin Williams corporate presence is currently underserved by KCLE?  Minneapolis?  There are about 10 roundtrip flights daily combined (KCLE-KMSP; KMSP-KCLE) between these two markets on Delta and Frontier, respectively.  Which other market? Chicago (home of SW's R&D Arthur Steudel Technical Center)? Just on United there are almost 20 roundtrip flights daily combined between here and Chicago. This is not even including American Airlines which also does a ton of business to ORD and Southwest, which of course flies into MDW.  My point with all of this is that Hopkins - despite its design flaws and aging infrastructure and the recent ignominious distinction given by JD Power & Associates - is perfectly sufficient to provide reliable, daily connections to any business-relevant city in this country with as little as two hops, max (assuming a direct does not exist).  Of course, we aren't talking about international, but that is the case for most Fortune 1000 companies.  How many Fortune 500 firms are based in Columbus? Tons. e.g. you don't see subsidized Columbus-LHR flights

The Chicago area SW's R&D Arthur Steudel Technical Center is closed and transfered to MINNEAPOLIS from what I understand.

6 hours ago, NewtoCLE said:

 

just curious: which 'domestic business centers' of relevance to SHW are currently being underserved by the existing inventory of commercial flights out of KCLE? If a direct doesn't currently exist, most cities in the U.S. are still reachable from KCLE with a maximum of two hops. For cities with a direct SWH corporate presence (Minneapolis, Chicago, et al), there is significant direct service offered daily by competing carriers. What are the markets that SHW needs but are currently being under represented?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Hopkins_International_Airport

 

FYI:  using wikipedia as a source here on UO is a no-no  LOL ?

6 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

When are we going to admit that downtown retail in Cleveland needs to be subsidized?

 

At this point in Cleveland's history, it is public benefit external to the supply and demand system.

what does this have to do with Sherwin williams??  

2 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

The Chicago area SW's R&D Arthur Steudel Technical Center is closed and transfered to MINNEAPOLIS from what I understand.

 

SHW proposed to demolish the Steudel tech center but there appears to be efforts underway to try to repurpose it.

2 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

FYI:  using wikipedia as a source here on UO is a no-no  LOL ?

Wikipedia may not be the greatest online resource out there, but it's certainly the most extensive (and more importantly, it's the best place to find airline/route tables for airports!).

 

To keep on topic: Weston Superblock was planned to be 3 million square feet. We're looking at just over half that amount in total, PLUS the potential tower on the Jacob's lot (assuming that's the footprint they go with). If it comes down to that, would you favor a supertall on PS and low/mid-rise urban campus on the superblock, or 400-500ft tower on PS connected to 2-3 Beacon-sized towers on the superblock (assuming all street-level desires are fulfilled).

Edited October 1, 20195 yr by Boxtruffles

3 hours ago, Terdolph said:

When are we going to admit that downtown retail in Cleveland needs to be subsidized?

 

At this point in Cleveland's history, it is public benefit external to the supply and demand system.

Heinens and Geiger’s opened up what, 5 years ago downtown on Euclid? They both seem to be doing well. Unsubsidized. Geiger’s has 3 stores, so I can’t imagine the other 2 can absorb the losses from #3. We have a lot of bodies downtown now. Things are different. Tower City opened when literally  nobody lived downtown. Tower City is now empty on purpose (CityBlock).  Lets get over that whoa is me bullsh*t. Hopefully the new SHW Headquarters will snuff that out.

Edited October 1, 20195 yr by marty15

This thread keeps devolving into nonsense.  When there is real news we can unlock it again.

We have to be honest with ourselves here.

 

It's unfortunate but the reality is that unless SW builds a HQ tower, with ancillary buildings downtown and unless there's a dramatic new development on the horizon that none of us are aware of, its unlikely there will be another high-rise office tower built downtown in the near future.

 

Therefore, Cleveland needs SW to build their HQ tower downtown.

Edited October 5, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder