Agreed, but not surprised.

Forty stories however is on par with 200 PS, Erieview Tower & One Cleveland. If the design is exceptional however it could still make a dramatic statement.

Another great article!  A question I have is can the space accommodate more than 6000 employees?  Doing some rough estimates, let's say that the 350,000ft R&D center holds 600 employees (I'm assuming it'd be more than that but let's go low just in case), that means there is still 1.45million sqft for 5400 employees which would be about 269 sqft per employee.  Right now companies are trending towards more open concepts and less square feet per person.  From what I've read it is moving closer to  150 to 175sqft/person.  Even with an additional 30% sqft for common areas and choosing the higher number (175sqft)  that still only gets you to 228 sqft needed per person which is at 85% of what they are actually building.

great article, Ken. You outclass any professional journalist in this city by leaps and bounds. Kudos.

 

Hoping for something larger than 40 stories also. Keeping fingers crossed for that and also the selection of Public Square

This is great news.  And for my official wish list I’m hoping for a hotel component.  Something unique similar to what was proposed in the 54 story version of nuCLEus.

I added a paragraph about the date that SHW made its HQ announcement and the deadline when Welty wanted HQ+R&D proposals submitted. The window was only 2 weeks, although it may have been longer (but not much longer) for unsolicited proposals. The solicited proposals were requested in August. Either way, if you were a developer/property owner from outside NE Ohio and didn't know SHW was looking for a new HQ, you didn't have much time to respond.

1 minute ago, KJP said:

I added a paragraph about the date that SHW made its HQ announcement and the deadline when Welty wanted HQ+R&D proposals submitted. The window was only 2 weeks, although it may have been longer (but not much longer) for unsolicited proposals. The solicited proposals were requested in August. Either way, if you were a developer/property owner from outside NE Ohio and didn't know SHW was looking for a new HQ, you didn't have much time to respond.

 

Ken, you've got a talent man! Here I am, thinking of got some intel, and you've already got it all cornered!

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Proportionality is important though.   200 Public Square is only 16 feet shorter than GAT, and taller than anything in Columbus.

 

And it's the shortest of the triple towers on Public Square by a good margin.

 

Downtown Cleveland is much more impressive coming from the west, by the way.

 

And also at night.  Every city's skyline looks bigger when all lit up like that.

Great news on the SW HQ+R&D!  Thanks, Ken, once again for proving you're one of the few true journalists left in town.

Really hoping this land on the Jacobs/Weston lots. 

Great reporting Ken. Cleveland urban enthusiast are lucky to have you. I am hoping for the Jacob/Weston lots, these are generational decisions that can dramatically push the city forward.  I hope the city/county stands downs and push for integrated business in downtown core on the Jacob lots.

Just imagine how hot those surrounding parking craters will become if they do go with Weston/Jacobs.  Look forward to the announcement!!

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by RE Developer In Training

@KJP Glad to hear more info saying SHW is staying in CLE. 

 

@Watertiger1962  I agree, it would be pretty disappointing if the tower was only 40 stories.   Hopefully that is just a safe number they are tossing around and it ends up being bigger, maybe with higher(20ft+) ceilings!? ?

 

I do hope they end up building near the square to fill in the empty lots.  It would be great if they just purchased the Jacobs lot and the one Weston lot next to it, leaving the second Weston lot for the Justice Center and thereby requiring SHW to build their tower a lot higher. 

I can't see it going past 450 feet. Kroger, which is a way bigger company than SW, only has a 320-foot tall HQ in Cincinnati. I think we're more likely to see a mid-sized tower for the suits and a squatter building with large floor plates for the R&D labs. Engineers hate having to squeeze things into small spaces over multiple floors when you can much more easily lay it out on one large floor. It's just not practical to run equipment and test samples up and down between multiple floors. 

Thanks for the article KJP. I am hoping for PS/Weston with the main tower

at least the size of Key Bank. 

25 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I can't see it going past 450 feet. Kroger, which is a way bigger company than SW, only has a 320-foot tall HQ in Cincinnati. I think we're more likely to see a mid-sized tower for the suits and a squatter building with large floor plates for the R&D labs. Engineers hate having to squeeze things into small spaces over multiple floors when you can much more easily lay it out on one large floor. It's just not practical to run equipment and test samples up and down between multiple floors. 

 

If they're really looking at a 40-story tower, I don't know why it couldn't be taller than 450'. The Kroger building is over 60 years old and less than 13' a floor. It's also only 25 stories. 

 

The E&Y building is about 15' a floor. Take that times 40 and you've got a 600' tower. That's not including pinnacles, spires, etc. Key Tower has 60' of architectural structure on top of its last real floor. Not suggesting that is a direction SW will go, but I haven't heard anything that would rule it out.

1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

If they're really looking at a 40-story tower, I don't know why it couldn't be taller than 450'. The Kroger building is over 60 years old and less than 13' a floor. It's also only 25 stories. 

 

The E&Y building is about 15' a floor. Take that times 40 and you've got a 600' tower. That's not including pinnacles, spires, etc. Key Tower has 60' of architectural structure on top of its last real floor. Not suggesting that is a direction SW will go, but I haven't heard anything that would rule it out.

 

Yeah - unless @KJP has heard differently, I've heard from a pretty good source that SHW wants at least one of its towers to be a formidable skyline presence (550-650ft), with other buildings ranging from 8-25 stories on the campus. 

 

Obviously - this will play itself out in the renderings, as even my information is still rather speculative, albeit by insiders. 

 

Moreover, if the Bedrock site is chosen, I don't see the point of a skyscraper, as it will already be 80-90 depressed beneath the rest of Downtown. The E&Y Building is the 18th tallest building downtown, but has almost no skyline impact unless you're looking from a Western angle because it's depressed beneath the rest of downtown. 

 

For those of us that love density, I don't think we could as for much more than a substantial tower and two smaller high rises to complement it, and that's what we may get at Weston or Lakefront

I'm confused as to why this matters as to selection of a contractor?
Goodyear's HQ reportedly impressed SHW CEO John Morikis.

They built what was designed by the Architect.

2 hours ago, NewtoCLE said:

great article, Ken. You outclass any professional journalist in this city by leaps and bounds. Kudos.

I still wish we had a more professional, formalized news site about Cleveland development the way that Curbed is for other cities.

Dreams aside, Ken you never fail to amaze me with what you do.

Glad I found the equivalent of Curbed Cleveland through this forum - well done! I hope the city/county aren't insistent on the Justice Center replacement being on the Weston lots as it would be more devoid of street life relative to a corporate HQ, right?

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by flee2thecleve14

How many employees does SW have in downtown currently?

This is gonna do wonders for the housing market, and businesses in general, not just in downtown, but OC, Hingetown, and Detroit-Shoreway. 2500 new employees being placed into the core of the city.  What a morale boost this’ll be!

1 minute ago, punch said:

How many employees does SW have in downtown currently?

 

Paragraph 3, sentence 1 in KJP's article. ?

44 minutes ago, tykaps said:

I still wish we had a more professional, formalized news site about Cleveland development the way that Curbed is for other cities.

Dreams aside, Ken you never fail to amaze me with what you do.

 

Thanks. I'm impressed with your contributions here. You seem pretty plugged in.

 

34 minutes ago, flee2thecleve14 said:

Glad I found the equivalent of Curbed Cleveland through this forum - well done! I hope the city/county aren't insistent on the Justice Center replacement being on the Weston lots as it would be more devoid of street life relative to a corporate HQ, right?

 

The Jacobs/Weston site is easily the best one for the SHW HQ. But the Bedrock site is a close second because of what Bedrock has envisioned to the east of it. We've seen that massing and it's pretty impressive, IMHO. So there can be some pretty impressive spinoff developments from either site. I've heard that SHW really wanted the Jacobs/Weston site, but when the city/county (under pressure from their law office constituents who want the courthouse tower near to Public Square) pushed for the new Justice Center to be on the Jacobs/Weston area, SHW apparently was pissed -- so much so they threatened to leave downtown. But other civic leaders stepped in and apparently smoothed things over.

 

19 minutes ago, punch said:

How many employees does SW have in downtown currently?

 

Latest figure I'd heard was 3,300.

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by KJP

Thank you for the great article, KJP.

Your articles are always much more fact-based and informative than those offered by Cleveland's mainstream media, who always tend to skew their reporting toward the negative. Again, thank you for reporting real information gathered from knowledgeable sources rather than falling prey to negative sensationalism that drives most of the mainstream media in this region.

What's pretty cool is that some pretty connected people on social media are sharing it. It includes some real estate developers, former PD reporters, former communications directors for Mayor White and Governor Voinovich, Greater Cleveland Partnership staff, and others.

 

About a month ago I had an article surpass 1,000 views in the first 24 hours. It was the fastest that one of my articles got to 1,000. I posted today's SHW article at 7:15 a.m. Just a few minutes ago, it surpassed 1,600 views. Not bad for 4.5 hours. ?

KJP;    Is the Bedrock river site  the same spot whereas the Jack Casino Phase 2 would go if it was

to be ever built    OR is it next to it closer to the Breen Technology center.

Just now, simplythis said:

KJP;    Is the Bedrock river site  the same spot whereas the Jack Casino Phase 2 would go if it was

to be ever built    OR is it next to it closer to the Breen Technology center.

 

Closer to Breen. It would be west of Tower City's Riverview entrance. East of the Riverview entrance, and instead of the casino phase 2, Bedrock is considering this for future phases of Tower City-area development (the SHW HQ+R&D would be to the left of and behind this image)....

“Pretty cool little article” to say the least Ken! Congrats on a superb bit of journalism. Congrats to Cleveland for one of the most important “gets” in decades!  And though our dreams of a”Supertall” have effectively ended, a 40 story state of the art tower could still be as high as 200 Public Square - and, with the unique design we’re hearing about, join our big 3 in terms of impact. 

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

What's pretty cool is that some pretty connected people on social media are sharing it. It includes some real estate developers, former PD reporters, former communications directors for Mayor White and Governor Voinovich, Greater Cleveland Partnership staff, and others.

 

About a month ago I had an article surpass 1,000 views in the first 24 hours. It was the fastest that one of my articles got to 1,000. I posted today's SHW article at 7:15 a.m. Just a few minutes ago, it surpassed 1,600 views. Not bad for 4.5 hours. ?

I am not surprised. Truly informed people are always looking for real information, not sensationalized entertainment when the subject is as important as retaining a major global company, along with the economic and community impact that retention- or loss implies.

I have family and friends at SHW who will be very interested in your article. 1600 views will be a distant memory before the end of the day.

.

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by ytown2ctown

600 - 800 feet for the tallest tower.

 

Do the CITIZENS of Cleveland, not the city's attorneys, really want the new Justice Center on PS?

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Would the Bedrock site mean tearing down the old B&O Station?

49 minutes ago, KJP said:

What's pretty cool is that some pretty connected people on social media are sharing it. It includes some real estate developers, former PD reporters, former communications directors for Mayor White and Governor Voinovich, Greater Cleveland Partnership staff, and others.

 

About a month ago I had an article surpass 1,000 views in the first 24 hours. It was the fastest that one of my articles got to 1,000. I posted today's SHW article at 7:15 a.m. Just a few minutes ago, it surpassed 1,600 views. Not bad for 4.5 hours. ?

 

I 100% support this humble brag

25 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

600 - 800 feet for the tallest tower.

 

Do the CITIZENS of Cleveland, not the city's attorneys, really want the new Justice Center on PS?

It needs to be in the CBD but the whole PS thing is new. It doesn’t HAVE to be there, I don’t think

No Justice Center on PS!  Are they out of their minds?  

35 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Would the Bedrock site mean tearing down the old B&O Station?

 

Unknown.

4 hours ago, KJP said:

I added a paragraph about the date that SHW made its HQ announcement and the deadline when Welty wanted HQ+R&D proposals submitted. The window was only 2 weeks, although it may have been longer (but not much longer) for unsolicited proposals. The solicited proposals were requested in August. Either way, if you were a developer/property owner from outside NE Ohio and didn't know SHW was looking for a new HQ, you didn't have much time to respond.

 

Great reporting Ken - will be curious to know whether any requirements in the R&D RFP around electric/utility reliability suggest possible dovetails with the upcoming RFP for building a microgrid in downtown Cleveland. Surely, with $1 billion investment, the SHW team has to be considering this?

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by ASP1984

Congrats to Cleveland on the big news, I am sure you all are super stoked!

3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

I 100% support this humble brag

 

My blog blew past 4,000 views of this story in the past hour. Now they want my balding, flu-infested mug on WKYC tonight.

Do you have any urbanohio merch?

4 hours ago, simplythis said:

KJP;    Is the Bedrock river site  the same spot whereas the Jack Casino Phase 2 would go if it was

to be ever built    OR is it next to it closer to the Breen Technology center.

 

Bedrock could work for R&D, but in the event of an incident I have concerns about it being immediately  upwind of Jacobs and Gund during some of the summer months.

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by E Rocc

9 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

My blog blew past 4,000 views of this story in the past hour. Now they want my balding, flu-infested mug on WKYC tonight.

 

WOAHHHHHH LOOK OUT KARDASHIANS, KENNY SCOOPS IS HERE

19 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

My blog blew past 4,000 views of this story in the past hour. Now they want my balding, flu-infested mug on WKYC tonight.

WKYC oughta put you on their payroll at this point.

Everyone is focusing on the 40 story bit, but wasn't that only with respect to the Bedrock location?  I believe a building with similar square footage on the Jacobs lot would be much taller because the floor plates would likely be smaller.

KJP, is that 1,600 new to the region jobs confirmed.  If so, that'll be big for the region.  Consolidation of NEO offices will be huge for Downtown.  

42 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

WOAHHHHHH LOOK OUT KARDASHIANS, KENNY SCOOPS IS HERE

That should be @KJP‘s new name from here on out, Kenny Scoops! Lol

43 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Bedrock could work for R&D, but in the event of an incident I have concerns about it being immediately  upwind of Jacobs and Gund during some of the summer months.

You do realize that Breen is right next to Progressive field and Rocket Mortgage,, right?

47 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

Everyone is focusing on the 40 story bit, but wasn't that only with respect to the Bedrock location?  I believe a building with similar square footage on the Jacobs lot would be much taller because the floor plates would likely be smaller.

 

That's the $1 billion question. But it's not just the Jacobs lot. It's also the Weston lots. Weston's now-dead proposal for its properties had 3 million square feet of development on them, and the tallest building they proposed was 37 stories.

 

17 minutes ago, freefourur said:

KJP, is that 1,600 new to the region jobs confirmed.  If so, that'll be big for the region.  Consolidation of NEO offices will be huge for Downtown.  

 

The 6,000 jobs is confirmed. That's the figure I've been told from several sources is what the HQ+R&D would be designed to accommodate. So subtract the 3,300 existing jobs downtown. And subtract up to 1,100 existing SHW office and research jobs in NE Ohio. Some of the research jobs will not move to the new R&D facilities -- especially those at SHW Automotive in Warrensville Hts. That leaves 1,600 jobs which is likely comprised of a few hundred jobs in R&D at the Valspar division in Minneapolis, as well as new jobs which are expected to materialize in the coming years. 

 

Consider that 1.8 million square feet divided by 6,000 employees is 300 square feet per employee. That's a lot -- except when taking the R&D into consideration. SHW has 320 workers at Breen which measures 140,000 sf. That's 438 sf per R&D employee -- and the Breen employees are complaining about a lack of space. So the R&D space requirements are bumping up the sf/employee numbers. Subtract those out to get about 5,300 HQ employees in about 1.4 million sf and the ratio drops to 264 sf / employee. Still high, but not if there's some on-site retail/restaurants, a training center, workout rooms, etc.

@KJP So just to be clear, other bidding states are of out the SW HQ race? Is this correct?

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

That's the $1 billion question. But it's not just the Jacobs lot. It's also the Weston lots. Weston's now-dead proposal for its properties had 3 million square feet of development on them, and the tallest building they proposed was 37 stories.

 

Ah, OK.  I was thinking that the Jacobs lot would house an HQ tower, and the Weston lots would hold multiple R&D buildings, but now I see that the article never mentioned it and I was just making an assumption.

Edited October 14, 20195 yr by jam40jeff