October 21, 20195 yr Author 28 minutes ago, htsfan said: Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today. Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt. Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad. Let the speculation ensue... That's a great sign! The Playhouse Square parking lot that was the site of the Lumen was resurfaced and restriped while rumors swirled about a new apartment tower. ? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr 22 hours ago, marty15 said: "You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile." I love the concept, but I'm not sure how much sense that reasoning really makes. As Millennia recently found out, the CBD still isn't healthy enough to quickly absorb 400,000 sq. ft. of extra class A space. So unless SHW is interested in becoming a residential landlord or opening up a hotel in its new tower (which would be surprising but cool!) or unless SHW has a vision to pair with some creative developer for the extra 20 floors, the idea of building taller because you've already got caissons seems like a sunk-cost fallacy. On the other hand, what I don't know (and maybe someone could enlighten me) is would any money be saved by having, say, a 60-story tower and two 15-story towers, all with identical footprints, as opposed to a 40-story tower and two 25-story towers?
October 21, 20195 yr I'm hearing from a very reliable source that Breckville's Valor Acres is still very much in the running for the R&D portion. Don't rule that out just yet.
October 21, 20195 yr 20 minutes ago, scb0525 said: I'm hearing from a very reliable source that Breckville's Valor Acres is still very much in the running for the R&D portion. Don't rule that out just yet. So, would consolidating the automotive finishes division in Warrensville Hts be part of the R&D campus? I apologize if this was already addressed.
October 21, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said: I love the concept, but I'm not sure how much sense that reasoning really makes. As Millennia recently found out, the CBD still isn't healthy enough to quickly absorb 400,000 sq. ft. of extra class A space. So unless SHW is interested in becoming a residential landlord or opening up a hotel in its new tower (which would be surprising but cool!) or unless SHW has a vision to pair with some creative developer for the extra 20 floors, the idea of building taller because you've already got caissons seems like a sunk-cost fallacy. On the other hand, what I don't know (and maybe someone could enlighten me) is would any money be saved by having, say, a 60-story tower and two 15-story towers, all with identical footprints, as opposed to a 40-story tower and two 25-story towers? The thing is, S-W could absorb all that space itself when it moves in. They're looking at 1.8million square feet, which is larger than Key Tower.
October 21, 20195 yr 2 hours ago, htsfan said: Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today. Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt. Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad. Let the speculation ensue... That's a minimal cost though. They probably make enough at that lot in a week or two to cover the cost of resurfacing. On top of that even if that location is selected, its probably at least a year away from excavation beginning on any sort of new building.
October 21, 20195 yr ^Agreed. They also recently installed a new sidewalk and mulch around the perimeter. Of course, the city (I'm assuming CPP) has ALREADY spray painted over it. Unbelievable. Edited October 21, 20195 yr by Oldmanladyluck
October 21, 20195 yr Author 2 hours ago, scb0525 said: I'm hearing from a very reliable source that Breckville's Valor Acres is still very much in the running for the R&D portion. Don't rule that out just yet. From everything I've heard, the HQ and R&D are going together. Where one goes, the other goes. At least that's the preference. So if SHW gets an offer for a better deal to put the R&D at Valor Acres, they might just take it. Or, they could use that possibility to extract a better deal(s) from downtown property owners. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said: The thing is, S-W could absorb all that space itself when it moves in. They're looking at 1.8million square feet, which is larger than Key Tower. Of course. I'm basing my comments on what @KJP has said that they're looking at roughly 40 stories and a campus as opposed to a 1500-foot monstrosity on the Jacobs lot that you could see from Sandusky. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as some on this forum when it comes to construction logistics and cost. My point is just that there doesn't seem to be a common-sense reason for SHW to say "well if we're doing 40 stories we might as well do 60." I'd love a 1000' tower on the Jacobs lot, but anything over 500' could be a really iconic fourth pillar around Public Square.
October 21, 20195 yr 3 hours ago, htsfan said: Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today. Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt. Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad. Let the speculation ensue... If they were selling the property, they would want it to appraise for as much as possible. Consider it like painting your house when you want to sell...
October 21, 20195 yr On 10/20/2019 at 12:32 PM, marty15 said: “A 30-year veteran of studying downtown Cleveland soils for multiple skyscraper projects, Duane Schreiber, president of geotechnical engineering consulting firm David V. Lewin Corp. of Cleveland, said the 59-story Key Tower required caissons 220 feet deep to reach bedrock for a foundation. The 32-story Hilton Cleveland Downtown went down 120 feet. Low-rise buildings may use a concrete mat as the foundation, but taller buildings require the more expensive caissons. "You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile." very interesting and helpful marty thank you --- and just for comparison sake average caissons go in at 44 feet on the brooklyn side and 78 feet on the manhattan side. that's why its easier in manhattan and some other cities to build tall towers.
October 21, 20195 yr 17 hours ago, West153 said: Crains is only $10 for a year with a .edu email address! Good to know! My wife has an edu e-mail adress
October 21, 20195 yr Author BTW, I'm aware of some property transactions and even some developments on hold (or at least go-slow) right now until they get confirmation on whether SHW is leaving, staying, expanding, etc. Some of the investors/developers who are connected to those who are involved with SHW are proceeding with their projects because they are confident that SHW is staying. But there is no certainty until we hear it from the horse's mouth. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr @KJP are you still hearing that we will hear an announcement by the end of the month? That means this week or next! What a relief it will be to finally know all.
October 21, 20195 yr Author 2 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said: @KJP are you still hearing that we will hear an announcement by the end of the month? That means this week or next! What a relief it will be to finally know all. I've not heard anything different. But the reality is probably going to be different from the goal. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr On 10/18/2019 at 11:17 AM, KJP said: There's so much I would love to say but can't. Maybe in 20 years or so. ? @KJP I like these posts better ?
October 21, 20195 yr 49 minutes ago, KJP said: I've not heard anything different. But the reality is probably going to be different from the goal. Different than the goal of staying in Cleveland (though from your amazing reporting I would assume that's not a question anymore) or the goal of being on PS?
October 21, 20195 yr Author Just now, MikeyB440 said: Different than the goal of staying in Cleveland (though from your amazing reporting I would assume that's not a question anymore) or the goal of being on PS? Just timing wise. If negotiations slow down because SHW wants to give one site's property owners or another's more time to respond, then things might take longer. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr 1 minute ago, KJP said: Just timing wise. If negotiations slow down because SHW wants to give one site's property owners or another's more time to respond, then things might take longer. Even though waiting is the hardest, out of all of the answers you could have given this is the least worrisome. Thanks for all you do!
October 21, 20195 yr 5 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said: I love the concept, but I'm not sure how much sense that reasoning really makes. As Millennia recently found out, the CBD still isn't healthy enough to quickly absorb 400,000 sq. ft. of extra class A space. So unless SHW is interested in becoming a residential landlord or opening up a hotel in its new tower (which would be surprising but cool!) or unless SHW has a vision to pair with some creative developer for the extra 20 floors... How weird is the idea of having a hotel? I’ve been to quite a few corporate HQ that have had, or been connected to, hotels. That said, my sample size is fairly small and many of these are in smaller cities. Is it common the have a hotel for employees visiting from other sites, value chain partners, etc.? Do the hotel’s surrounding PS, the Riverfront, or VA have the infrastructure and capacity a growing S-W would want moving forward?
October 21, 20195 yr 3 minutes ago, Clevecane said: How weird is the idea of having a hotel? I’ve been to quite a few corporate HQ that have had, or been connected to, hotels. That said, my sample size is fairly small and many of these are in smaller cities. Is it common the have a hotel for employees visiting from other sites, value chain partners, etc.? Do the hotel’s surrounding PS, the Riverfront, or VA have the infrastructure and capacity a growing S-W would want moving forward? It would make sense on multiple fronts. It’s “ hypothetical”front door is Public Square. It’s a global headquarters, so they’ll constantly have out of town employees here for training and meetings. Edited October 21, 20195 yr by marty15
October 21, 20195 yr I don't think there's currently a shortage of downtown hotels. If SW selects PS, there are four hotels within a few blocks walking distance (Renaissance, Marriott, Hilton, Drury Plaza)
October 21, 20195 yr Author 4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said: I don't think there's currently a shortage of downtown hotels. If SW selects PS, there are four hotels within a few blocks walking distance (Renaissance, Marriott, Hilton, Drury Plaza) Although one of them may expand if SHW builds their new HQ across the street.... ? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr 2 minutes ago, KJP said: Although one of them may expand if SHW builds their new HQ across the street.... ? Nice. You are probably talking about the Renaissance. About 15-20 years ago they had expansion plans on the vacant parcel next to them. Nothing Materialized. Is this what you are talking about. I wish some could find those renderings and post them.
October 21, 20195 yr I REALLY hope SW stays in Cleveland. I don't think the city would ever be able to recover if they leave.
October 21, 20195 yr Author 20 minutes ago, jbee1982 said: I REALLY hope SW stays in Cleveland. I don't think the city would ever be able to recover if they leave. Sure it could. It recovered from the loss of Sohio/BP (5,500 HQ jobs over 13 years), and consider the loss of these Cleveland employers (blue & white collar jobs) since 1960.... https://www.toledoblade.com/business/2016/07/03/cleveland-hard-hit-by-factory-closings-since-1960.html 34 minutes ago, simplythis said: Nice. You are probably talking about the Renaissance. About 15-20 years ago they had expansion plans on the vacant parcel next to them. Nothing Materialized. Is this what you are talking about. I wish some could find those renderings and post them. Here's what you're talking about. This is from 1994.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Although one of them may expand if SHW builds their new HQ across the Ok, I'm not going to let you off the hook so easily...spill the beans.
October 21, 20195 yr One cannot overlook the relative ease of hopping off of your plane at CLE and onto the Red Line to Tower City, your hotel and your HQ offices; even with two connecting flights. There's something about the last leg of your trip that can make the difference.
October 21, 20195 yr 25 minutes ago, KJP said: Sure it could. It recovered from the loss of Sohio/BP (5,500 HQ jobs over 13 years), and consider the loss of these Cleveland employers (blue & white collar jobs) since 1960.... https://www.toledoblade.com/business/2016/07/03/cleveland-hard-hit-by-factory-closings-since-1960.html Here's what you're talking about. This is from 1994.... Wow. That's it. I did not realize that that was 25 years ago. KJP - you're the best. Is This your Hint?j
October 21, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Although one of them may expand if SHW builds their new HQ across the street.... ? Okay. If this is how we can tease information out of @KJP; anyone know if a new S-W HQ with 3,000 employees could support a City Target? ?
October 21, 20195 yr 36 minutes ago, KJP said: Here's what you're talking about. This is from 1994.... Is this one of the "on hold" or "go slow" projects?
October 21, 20195 yr 10 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said: Is this one of the "on hold" or "go slow" projects? Would love to see this come to fruition ?
October 22, 20195 yr Author 55 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said: Is this one of the "on hold" or "go slow" projects? That's a wait-and-see project. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 22, 20195 yr This my first time putting my two sense in. I was born in Cleveland at 26th and payne, but moved away in my latter part of grade school. Came back and work in Cleveland for couple times. It seems that over the past 40 years there has been quite a few 500. Companies have left Cleveland for so called greener pasture. So I am not sure and hope SW stays in Cleveland. When are they supposed to give their big announcement?
October 22, 20195 yr 29 minutes ago, jimphilpat1 said: This my first time putting my two sense in. I was born in Cleveland at 26th and payne, but moved away in my latter part of grade school. Came back and work in Cleveland for couple times. It seems that over the past 40 years there has been quite a few 500. Companies have left Cleveland for so called greener pasture. So I am not sure and hope SW stays in Cleveland. When are they supposed to give their big announcement? I can't tell you how many times a company would announce expansion plans but due to a poor fiscal quarter, or company restructuring, etc end up delaying/abandon those expansion plans. My own company, albeit much smaller compared to SW, had abandoned its own expansion plans of a second tower because of company restucturing of it's CEOs/CFO's etc. Not saying thats what will end up happening, but I always feel the most likeliest scenario is that SW stays in Cleveland but end up punting the expansion plans for a tbd date.
October 22, 20195 yr Author 47 minutes ago, jimphilpat1 said: This my first time putting my two sense in. I was born in Cleveland at 26th and payne, but moved away in my latter part of grade school. Came back and work in Cleveland for couple times. It seems that over the past 40 years there has been quite a few 500. Companies have left Cleveland for so called greener pasture. So I am not sure and hope SW stays in Cleveland. When are they supposed to give their big announcement? In a couple of weeks, depending on the progress of negotiations with property owners. As for how other HQs stopped existing here, I've posted a response in another thread since their history has nothing to do with SHW's future... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 22, 20195 yr 6 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said: I don't think there's currently a shortage of downtown hotels. If SW selects PS, there are four hotels within a few blocks walking distance (Renaissance, Marriott, Hilton, Drury Plaza) The interesting thing about the Renaissance Hotel is that at one point it was a 1,000 room Hotel! Over the years it has been renovated several times and it has been downsized to 800 then later 600 and finally 450 rooms, because there was NOT ENOUGH DEMAND at the time. Edited October 22, 20195 yr by Larry1962
October 22, 20195 yr 2 hours ago, jimphilpat1 said: This my first time putting my two sense in. I was born in Cleveland at 26th and payne, but moved away in my latter part of grade school. Came back and work in Cleveland for couple times. It seems that over the past 40 years there has been quite a few 500. Companies have left Cleveland for so called greener pasture. So I am not sure and hope SW stays in Cleveland. When are they supposed to give their big announcement? There’s only been two Fortune 500 companies that left Cleveland. And I’ll make this brief, but just as a philosophical note, there is a climate among some Clevelanders that is obsessed with our past and while we need to respect our past, we need to be focused on making better today’s so that we can have better tomorrows. This is not 50 years ago. It’s just not. And the more that we continue to look back to see what we used to be, the less time we spend on what we can be TODAY. Just because we lost battles in the past doesn’t mean we have to lose this one here. We have got to stop being afraid of our own shadow and step into our mantle and rightful place of one of America’s great cities. Period. Yes, we lost 2 Fortune 500 companies in the last 50 years. That does not mean we have to lose this one right now in SHW. Focus on the present and the future. That’s all I’m saying.
October 22, 20195 yr Cleveland's past is what has made and continues to make it great today. While there have been heartbreaks and setbacks, as in any city, the treasures it has developed and rich history for a city of its size are tremendous. Don't lose sight of the past because it can help guide the present and the future. Edited October 22, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder
October 22, 20195 yr 15 hours ago, Clevecane said: How weird is the idea of having a hotel? I’ve been to quite a few corporate HQ that have had, or been connected to, hotels. That said, my sample size is fairly small and many of these are in smaller cities. Is it common the have a hotel for employees visiting from other sites, value chain partners, etc.? Do the hotel’s surrounding PS, the Riverfront, or VA have the infrastructure and capacity a growing S-W would want moving forward? Flats EB, E&Y is internally connected to Aloft.
October 22, 20195 yr 22 hours ago, KJP said: From everything I've heard, the HQ and R&D are going together. Where one goes, the other goes. At least that's the preference. So if SHW gets an offer for a better deal to put the R&D at Valor Acres, they might just take it. Or, they could use that possibility to extract a better deal(s) from downtown property owners. So you’re walking back the big October 14 article?
October 22, 20195 yr Author 16 minutes ago, CleveFan said: So you’re walking back the big October 14 article? Nope. My understanding is that SHW's consultant on this project, Welty, has asked only for proposals for downtown sites. I also noted that it accepted unsolicited proposal for non-downtown sites. And I noted that Valor Acres was the only unsolicited proposal that I'm aware of. Could a surprise happen? Of course. That's life. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 22, 20195 yr lets hope the surprise isn't crickets while they arm wrestle the land owners. i don't think anyone could stand too much delay with this!
October 22, 20195 yr This is the whale that Jacob's has been waiting 30 years for, can't imagine they have another company that could/would pay the price SW would, though I'm sure SW knows that. I think Public Square is going to get it in the end.
October 22, 20195 yr 10 minutes ago, w28th said: This is the whale that Jacob's has been waiting 30 years for, can't imagine they have another company that could/would pay the price SW would, though I'm sure SW knows that. I think Public Square is going to get it in the end. Fingers crossed - but just remember, Cuyahoga County likes to get in its own way
October 22, 20195 yr 2 minutes ago, YABO713 said: Fingers crossed - but just remember, Cuyahoga County likes to get in its own way Cuyahoga County has offered a generous subsidy to SW.
October 22, 20195 yr 28 minutes ago, freefourur said: Cuyahoga County has offered a generous subsidy to SW. I agree - I'm not talking about that
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