7 hours ago, marty15 said:

This is completely hearsay, but I struck up a conversation with a young lady at Fahrenheit last night, who happens to be in the Cleveland real estate realm. I brought up the topic of Sherwin-Williams, which every good UO member should do. She mentioned that her best friend was some sort of managing director at SHW. She said no one there is worried about a move. Everyone there knows they’re staying. So there’s that. I wont add what followed.

Your last sentence.? Please add what followed.?

1 hour ago, Watertiger1962 said:

Your last sentence.? Please add what followed.?

Probably KJP’s mystery mega project ?

48 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

Probably KJP’s mystery mega project ?

 

Is the mystery project bigger than SHW? How would that even be possible unless it was Amazon or some HUGE corporation?

Where is Marty15?  He's pulling one of KJP's numbers; dropping strong hints, then silence. Lol.

 

You can't leave us all hanging like that!

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Where is Marty15?  He's pulling one of KJP's numbers; dropping strong hints, then silence. Lol.

 

You can't leave us all hanging like that!

Knowing @marty15, his teaser at the end had nothing to do with construction and I was having some fun with that?

Move along everyone and go Browns.

Yeah, I think @marty15 was saying he got lucky.

 

Okay, back to topic before we get locked out again. ?

33 minutes ago, KJP said:

Yeah, I think @marty15 was saying he got lucky.

 

Okay, back to topic before we get locked out again. ?

 

Must. Resist. Urge. To. Make. Construction-Related. Joke... ?

5 hours ago, KJP said:

Yeah, I think @marty15 was saying he got lucky.

 

Okay, back to topic before we get locked out again. ?

Well all of the info will come out eventually. It is just a matter of time, but it is hard to wait with a potential like this. But there is no choice really. I just hope the news is sooner rather than later, and that it is very good news-not just for Cleveland, but again for Ohio as well.

I'm not sure if its been thoroughly discussed, but would SW be open to residential at all? They definitely need first floor retail, but is residential on the table at all? They could team up with a local company to facilitate the residential side?

Lots of new residential coming to the neighborhood's older buildings, starting with 75 Public Square.

It seems a few posters don’t really understand the concept of “density”. These folks are saying, a 90-story (or so) building is bad, we need a bunch of shorter buildings so we can have “density”.  The amount of land is fixed.  So if you have a 90-story building, you can STILL HAVE a bunch of shorter buildings as well, meaning you will have MORE people/activity per square foot on the ground with one 90-story and eight 20-story buildings (for example) than you would with nine 20-story buildings.  The only time you wouldn’t is if you built a stupid park around the 90-story building which I don’t think anyone is advocating.  So we’re better off with a very tall skyscraper, as only that will allow for maximum density and it will also provide the benefit of adding to our skyline and image.

Skyline impact as a planning device has absolutely zero bearing for any company building a new HQ.

18 minutes ago, Pugu said:

It seems a few posters don’t really understand the concept of “density”. These folks are saying, a 90-story (or so) building is bad, we need a bunch of shorter buildings so we can have “density”.  The amount of land is fixed.  So if you have a 90-story building, you can STILL HAVE a bunch of shorter buildings as well, meaning you will have MORE people/activity per square foot on the ground with one 90-story and eight 20-story buildings (for example) than you would with nine 20-story buildings.  The only time you wouldn’t is if you built a stupid park around the 90-story building which I don’t think anyone is advocating.  So we’re better off with a very tall skyscraper, as only that will allow for maximum density and it will also provide the benefit of adding to our skyline and image.

 

It's not about density per se, it's that, due to parking lot craters downtown, I'd rather see a series of small buildings take them all out at once rather than wait another 30 years (as we have been) for somebody to develop them all. It's about streetscape and street activity, not density.

I get that--I was referring to people who said they wanted "density" which they claimed would not be afforded by a very tall skyscraper.

^maybe. But, with (eventual) growth, after the one tall bldg is built, other buildings by other developers will follow...But you're not going to knock down one of the new 20-story buildings in a few years to build a 90-story one.   Also, from afar, one can't see the 20-story bldgs, only the taller ones.

35 minutes ago, w28th said:

Skyline impact as a planning device has absolutely zero bearing for any company building a new HQ.

 

I respectively disagree.   It is the realm of possibility that any company with deep Cleveland roots, would be interested in making a forever-impact on the skyline.   Why wouldn't they consider the tallest building as a possible design?  

Oh yeah, I get the density of skyline thing too because I contrast us with Cincinnati - they don't have as many tall buildings as we do but they have less gaps in the skyline and so I like that look. But ultimately skyline is low on the list of considerations for me - for us to get a truly impressive skyline we're ultimately going to need to step up the economic growth game bigtime. 

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

It seems a few posters don’t really understand the concept of “density”. These folks are saying, a 90-story (or so) building is bad, we need a bunch of shorter buildings so we can have “density”.  The amount of land is fixed.  So if you have a 90-story building, you can STILL HAVE a bunch of shorter buildings as well, meaning you will have MORE people/activity per square foot on the ground with one 90-story and eight 20-story buildings (for example) than you would with nine 20-story buildings.  The only time you wouldn’t is if you built a stupid park around the 90-story building which I don’t think anyone is advocating.  So we’re better off with a very tall skyscraper, as only that will allow for maximum density and it will also provide the benefit of adding to our skyline and image.

 

I think the idea is that four 20 story buildings is better than one 80 story building and three parking lots, but what you're saying makes sense if you assume all the buildable land will actually be built on.

2 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

 

I think the idea is that four 20 story buildings is better than one 80 story building and three parking lots, but what you're saying makes sense if you assume all the buildable land will actually be built on.

 

Which is a big "if" considering how long that so many of these parking craters have endured. There isn't a big demand for office space anywhere in the Cleveland area and even though some office tenants would like to be in newer spaces, Cleveland-area Trophy Class office rents don't come close to covering nationally consistent construction costs. And Cleveland doesn't offer subsidies for office construction except when renovating older buildings. The last new-construction office tower (the Ernst & Young tower in 2012) benefited from $30 million in investor visa tax credits--a program that's no longer available. 

 

So if you want to outlive downtown's largest parking lot crater as I do, hope that SHW comes with a plan that eliminates it with a design that eats those lots and does so with buildings designed to be pedestrian-porous along the major thoroughfares and hides its structured parking from the street.

 

BTW, I think that county plat map revision involving the vacation of Broome Court that @GISguy mentioned a week ago may be a bigger SHW HQ tell than I'd realized. Yes, the city passed it two years ago. So why did the county's Fiscal Officer finally do something about it now?

Edited December 2, 20195 yr by KJP

54 minutes ago, KJP said:

So if you want to outlive downtown's largest parking lot crater as I do, hope that SHW comes with a plan that eliminates it with a design that eats those lots and does so with buildings designed to be pedestrian-porous along the major thoroughfares and hides its structured parking from the street.

 

Oh, I'm right there with you.  I didn't mean to imply that I think we can fill those lots if SHW decides to only build a single supertall.  I was just explaining the disconnect everyone seemed to be having over the term density and what assumption was being made which led to it.

 

I'd take the multiple 20 story buildings any day.

5 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

 

Oh, I'm right there with you.  I didn't mean to imply that I think we can fill those lots if SHW decides to only build a single supertall.  I was just explaining the disconnect everyone seemed to be having over the term density and what assumption was being made which led to it.

 

I'd take the multiple 20 story buildings any day.

Was fooling around on the internet over the weekend.  Target's downtown campus is 1.8M sq ft and is spread over two buildings (one of which is 30 stories - 33 I believe). 

8 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Which is a big "if" considering how long that so many of these parking craters have endured. There isn't a big demand for office space anywhere in the Cleveland area and even though some office tenants would like to be in newer spaces, Cleveland-area Trophy Class office rents don't come close to covering nationally consistent construction costs. And Cleveland doesn't offer subsidies for office construction except when renovating older buildings. The last new-construction office tower (the Ernst & Young tower in 2012) benefited from $30 million in investor visa tax credits--a program that's no longer available....

 

 

KJP---[bold added above] -- are you referring to the EB-6 program? why is it no longer available?

8 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Which is a big "if" considering how long that so many of these parking craters have endured. There isn't a big demand for office space anywhere in the Cleveland area and even though some office tenants would like to be in newer spaces, Cleveland-area Trophy Class office rents don't come close to covering nationally consistent construction costs. And Cleveland doesn't offer subsidies for office construction except when renovating older buildings. The last new-construction office tower (the Ernst & Young tower in 2012) benefited from $30 million in investor visa tax credits--a program that's no longer available. 

 

So if you want to outlive downtown's largest parking lot crater as I do, hope that SHW comes with a plan that eliminates it with a design that eats those lots and does so with buildings designed to be pedestrian-porous along the major thoroughfares and hides its structured parking from the street.

 

BTW, I think that county plat map revision involving the vacation of Broome Court that @GISguy mentioned a week ago may be a bigger SHW HQ tell than I'd realized. Yes, the city passed it two years ago. So why did the county's Fiscal Officer finally do something about it now?

The city passed the ordinance 2 years ago but there must be a separate filing with the county to transfer it in the records. I think this is a good sign that a title policy likely caught it.

20 minutes ago, freefourur said:

The city passed the ordinance 2 years ago but there must be a separate filing with the county to transfer it in the records. I think this is a good sign that a title policy likely caught it.

 

There were actually multiple filings of the same document for each of the PPN's listed.

Just now, KJP said:

 

There were actually multiple filings of the same document for each of the PPN's listed.

Were they all filed with the county this year?

1 minute ago, freefourur said:

Were they all filed with the county this year?

 

On Nov. 21

19 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

On Nov. 21

I think that's a good sign that some title work is occurring. Alley vacation, lot splits, and lot consolidation are often not recorded with the county (in error.) This is usually not discovered until a title policy/commitment is prepared and title search performed. 

19 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think that's a good sign that some title work is occurring. Alley vacation, lot splits, and lot consolidation are often not recorded with the county (in error.) This is usually not discovered until a title policy/commitment is prepared and title search performed. 

Are these indicators that the parcels are being legally cleaned up and consolidated for purchase by a single entity?

4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Are these indicators that the parcels are being legally cleaned up and consolidated for purchase by a single entity?

 

? ?? WE HAVE A WINNER!! ???

 

BTW: not yet consolidated. That will probably come post-transfer.

Edited December 2, 20195 yr by KJP

7 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Are these indicators that the parcels are being legally cleaned up and consolidated for purchase by a single entity?

 

Very likely.  If a purchase is happening, then a title company will make sure that all the loose ends are tied up.

13 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

I respectively disagree.   It is the realm of possibility that any company with deep Cleveland roots, would be interested in making a forever-impact on the skyline.   Why wouldn't they consider the tallest building as a possible design?  

 

Yea, that sounds great and all, but you're missing one thing, budget. Sherwin Williams is a publicly traded company and decisions like this will ultimately need approval. You're asking them to double the size of their building just because of the skyline.

10 hours ago, KJP said:

So if you want to outlive downtown's largest parking lot crater as I do, hope that SHW comes with a plan that eliminates it with a design that eats those lots and does so with buildings designed to be pedestrian-porous along the major thoroughfares and hides its structured parking from the street.

And hopefully whatever is built will blend in with the existing buildings in the Warehouse District, especially along W 6th and St. Clair.  I believe the Weston plan of a few years ago had low rise buildings of 4 or 5 floors on W 6th with retail on the first floor.   

10 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Which is a big "if" considering how long that so many of these parking craters have endured. There isn't a big demand for office space anywhere in the Cleveland area and even though some office tenants would like to be in newer spaces, Cleveland-area Trophy Class office rents don't come close to covering nationally consistent construction costs. And Cleveland doesn't offer subsidies for office construction except when renovating older buildings. The last new-construction office tower (the Ernst & Young tower in 2012) benefited from $30 million in investor visa tax credits--a program that's no longer available. 

 

So if you want to outlive downtown's largest parking lot crater as I do, hope that SHW comes with a plan that eliminates it with a design that eats those lots and does so with buildings designed to be pedestrian-porous along the major thoroughfares and hides its structured parking from the street.

 

BTW, I think that county plat map revision involving the vacation of Broome Court that @GISguy mentioned a week ago may be a bigger SHW HQ tell than I'd realized. Yes, the city passed it two years ago. So why did the county's Fiscal Officer finally do something about it now?

 

Just checked myplace.cuyahogacounty.us this morning and the Broome Court right of way is now gone. It was still there on the map last week.

39 minutes ago, yanni_gogolak said:

 

Yea, that sounds great and all, but you're missing one thing, budget. Sherwin Williams is a publicly traded company and decisions like this will ultimately need approval. You're asking them to double the size of their building just because of the skyline.

 

Of course it's a publicly traded company so budget is the ultimate deciding factor.    But this doesn't mean they don't consider building an iconic tower.    It happens all the time....Comcast Center in Philly, Bank of America in Charlotte, hell even the P&G buildings in downtown Cincinnati have their own iconic spin on the skyline ?

 

Another factor is available, low-cost property. Being able to build on downtown land without the expense of having to remediate/demolish old buildings first reducing the motivation for going vertical. Economics/space requirements usually drive the height of skyscrapers although sometimes vanity does as well (like the race between the builders of the Chrysler and Empire State buildings). But one thing we cannot accuse SHW of having is vanity. Their current HQ says they couldn't care less if someone knew who/what/where their HQ is.

 

36 minutes ago, KJP said:

Their current HQ says they couldn't care less if someone knew who/what/where their HQ is

 

Which may factor into the possible SW recruitment issues that we have discussed here. In my field (IT) I ask a lot of my colleagues looking to move if they have checked SW and they either say,  "oh I forgot about them" or even "they are located here" (most of the time that's the cle transplants). Point is, marketing maters. Both for recruitment and products sales. This is sometimes achieved by a HQ building(s). 

When built, wasn't the Landmark Office Tower (SW's current headquarters) iconic?

 

While their new HQ may not achieve the heights many of us would hope for, I'm sure it too will be iconic, with the intent of being a solid home for another 100 years.

Quote

"Groundwater removal is less important for the digging of caissons to bedrock 200 feet below the surface than it is for constructing a concrete mat foundation. Caissons are typically dug for towers rising above 400 feet. Mat foundations, or "floating mats," are for shorter towers.

And that sounds like what SHW is doing here. It sounds like they are testing and preparing the 1.17-acre Jacobs lot on Public Square for a mat foundation."

 

I saw this quote a few pages back, I think it may be from one of @KJP articles, but this thread was locked before I could respond.  While I do see the reasoning behind it, and im not saying its wrong, i think it is important to note that "Groundwater removal" has been used in construction of very large buildings that do require caissons.

 

I believe both The Aqua Tower in Chicago (82FLs and 859' tall) and The Millenium in San Francisco (58FLs and 645' tall) had "Groundwater removal" prefourmed on the projects.

 

This should give hope to all those who are dreaming of a iconic tower on the Jacobs lot!

12 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

When built, wasn't the Landmark Office Tower (SW's current headquarters) iconic?

 

While their new HQ may not achieve the heights many of us would hope for, I'm sure it too will be iconic, with the intent of being a solid home for another 100 years.

 

Although SHW shared the Landmark Office Tower with three other major tenants until the 1970s and 80s, it wasn't until 1985 that SHW acquired the Landmark building. And even after that, you still don't see SHW's name prominently displayed anywhere on the exterior of that building.

58 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Although SHW shared the Landmark Office Tower with three other major tenants until the 1970s and 80s, it wasn't until 1985 that SHW acquired the Landmark building. And even after that, you still don't see SHW's name prominently displayed anywhere on the exterior of that building.

 

Except that giant banner on the back blank wall facing the RMFH.  

3 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Except that giant banner on the back blank wall facing the RMFH.  

 

Perhaps Nike had their HQ there previously? ?

Perhaps, Sherwin-Williams will surprise us all by constructing an unexpected (but rumoured) 75-stories tall tower that would be iconic among America's cities.

 

We can still dream can't we ... Until we are all notified via an official announcement from the company.

 

Sherwin-Williams may have the LAST LAUGH upon all of us who are thirsty and salivating forum member's.

 

?????

Edited December 2, 20195 yr by John D. Baumgardner
Self edit

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Just checked myplace.cuyahogacounty.us this morning and the Broome Court right of way is now gone. It was still there on the map last week.

I'm sorry for not following in detail the earlier posts regarding Broome Court Vacation Plat. Where & what exactly is this?  

7 minutes ago, simplythis said:

I'm sorry for not following in detail the earlier posts regarding Broome Court Vacation Plat. Where & what exactly is this?  

 

I will have an article about this and more. I'd like to have a non-SHW article first so that my blog doesn't get bogged down with SHW stuff -- but I'm not getting calls returned on some other interesting stuff in the meantime.

 

This is a map where I circled Broome Court in 2017 after the ordinance was passed:

 

And this is what the plat map looked like this morning (12-2-19):

 

Edited December 2, 20195 yr by KJP

Thanks @mack34!

 

 

007 happy to help!!!

I guess the City would need for the sewers to accomodate a new development in that area. I think it's a routine practice to ensure that sewers can handle any major new development.

8 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I guess the City would need for the sewers to accomodate a new development in that area. I think it's a routine practice to ensure that sewers can handle any major new development.

 

I'm sure it is. But I'm also having a little fun with this, as is Pete...er, NEOtrans Agent 007.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Thanks @mack34!

 

 

So it's confirmed, they're definitely moving to Atlanta now. Ok, cool.

2 hours ago, mack34 said:

007 happy to help!!!

Was there anyone from NEORSD on site? Or show any presence?