55 minutes ago, tagalong said:

Sorry and please don’t ban me or close the thread mods for being off topic but where would an update on the rock be posted? Warehouse District thread? Or does it have its own?

 

It's the WHD thread. Last article I had on The Rock was posted here:

 

 

Carry on..........

 

40 minutes ago, MissinOhio said:

I knew you were watching.

Of course.  As a fellow native of The Land and major Ohio booster, I'm super excited for this project.  Can't wait for the announcement and renderings.

9 hours ago, Silent Matt said:

Ok so we got 55 Public square at 22 stories and 300 feet...sooo, let’s say SW tower is 30 stories and 450 feet...BAM, there ya go!

 

 

This looks like if H.P. Lovecraft was an architect.

Commencement of development may happen sooner, as SW continues to drive its North American revenue, earnings and and its cash flow.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-keep-sherwin-williams-shw-110811215.html

Cleveland, Cuyahoga County won’t pledge full disclosure of Sherwin-Williams incentive package negotiations

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The administrations of Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish and Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson will not rule out trying to keep secret the details related to negotiating incentives aimed at keeping Sherwin-Williams’ headquarters in the county.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/01/cleveland-cuyahoga-county-wont-pledge-full-disclosure-of-sherwin-williams-incentive-package-negotiations.html

20 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

there are so many sites around downtown to make an r&d site work its not even funny.

 

its time for city hall to get to work and offer a few suggestions.

 

not that they haven't or aren't in the process of it, who knows, but assuming so, make it public so a big pr push can be made by everyone. 

Trust me. They are throwing everything they have at them. 

9 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Trust me. They are throwing everything they have at them. 

I hope so. All aspects of SW need to be in Cleveland proper. 

10 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I hope so. All aspects of SW need to be in Cleveland proper. 

Ultimately the company will do what they want regardless. 

Learning more details. Some very exciting. Some not as good as they could be.

 

I have many more details to learn.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Learning more details. Some very exciting. Some not as good as they could be.

 

I have many more details to learn.

Anything that you would like to share to the rest of us know-nothings.

UrbanOhio forum visitors know a lot more about what's going on development-wise than probably 99 percent of Greater Clevelanders. Based on the posts in this thread in recent days, you also know more than most people what's happening. And when I get a few things confirmed (or denied), I hope we'll all learn a little bit more.

8 minutes ago, KJP said:

UrbanOhio forum visitors know a lot more about what's going on development-wise than probably 99 percent of Greater Clevelanders. Based on the posts in this thread in recent days, you also know more than most people what's happening. And when I get a few things confirmed (or denied), I hope we'll all learn a little bit more.

Much of that has to do with you. What would urbanohio be without you? You are the indespensible poster.

Edited January 17, 20205 yr by shack

 I  was born in cleveland.  Since I left I used to go to the local library and read the cleveland plain dealer.  Mos t of my relatives back home in cleveland used to say that I knew more of what was happening than they did.  I this forum really lets us know what is going on in our home town. I want to thank you all for having this site.

Friendly suggestion for the powers that be. Two different threads, one for HQ one for R & D.  

 

^Good suggestion - folks, please post any R&D discussion in this new thread. Thank you!

editorial today in Clevleand.com advocating for more transparency in details of City/County incentive package being offered to keep SW here in Cleveland.  https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2020/01/citizens-deserve-to-know-what-county-and-city-officials-offer-sherwin-williams-to-stay-in-cleveland.html

 

Curious what everyone's thoughts are about this.  I think some level of confidentiality needs to be had during negotiations but the end result should be made clear.  Ultimately, any property tax abatement needs signed off by School board and income tax needs approved by Council, right?  

Yeah, if the deal is made public before an agreement is in place you're just inviting someone else to one-up whatever incentives we give.  Does the PD ever ride the suburbs to make their incentive packages public knowledge?

2 hours ago, gottaplan said:

editorial today in Clevleand.com advocating for more transparency in details of City/County incentive package being offered to keep SW here in Cleveland.  https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2020/01/citizens-deserve-to-know-what-county-and-city-officials-offer-sherwin-williams-to-stay-in-cleveland.html

 

Curious what everyone's thoughts are about this.  I think some level of confidentiality needs to be had during negotiations but the end result should be made clear.  Ultimately, any property tax abatement needs signed off by School board and income tax needs approved by Council, right?  

Complete transparency gives leverage to all companies to argue for similar subsidies and breaks, and that's ultimately just a race to the bottom. I'm a firm no.

51 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Complete transparency gives leverage to all companies to argue for similar subsidies and breaks, and that's ultimately just a race to the bottom. I'm a firm no.

 

Good point, and I thought of that, but most all incentives must pay for themselves.  the math is fairly basic.  If it doesn't pay for itself in 10 years, it doesn't compute.  No matter if you are a 250 person company or a 2500 person company.  If the City established clear incentives criteria for income tax and property tax based on jobs & capital investment, it would be easy for all to analyze.  Just my thoughts

 

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2020

Sherwin-Williams HQ+R&D site news may wait until next month

 

A curveball thrown at Sherwin-Williams (SHW) regarding its favored research and development (R&D) facility development site has forced the global coatings giant to postpone announcing where it will put its R&D and headquarters (HQ) facilities.

That's according to sources who spoke off the record because they are not authorized to speak publicly about SHW's efforts to pursue new HQ+R&D facilities.

They said SHW had been preparing to publicly announce the HQ+R&D sites this week. But when SHW's favored site for its 350,000-square-foot R&D facility on Scranton Peninsula turned sour, it began discussions with owners of alternative R&D sites.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/sherwin-williams-hqr-site-news-may-wait.html 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2020

Sherwin-Williams HQ+R&D site news may wait until next month

 

A curveball thrown at Sherwin-Williams (SHW) regarding its favored research and development (R&D) facility development site has forced the global coatings giant to postpone announcing where it will put its R&D and headquarters (HQ) facilities.

That's according to sources who spoke off the record because they are not authorized to speak publicly about SHW's efforts to pursue new HQ+R&D facilities.

They said SHW had been preparing to publicly announce the HQ+R&D sites this week. But when SHW's favored site for its 350,000-square-foot R&D facility on Scranton Peninsula turned sour, it began discussions with owners of alternative R&D sites.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/sherwin-williams-hqr-site-news-may-wait.html 

Thanks as always KJP, especially for the news that downtown is the preferred location for the R & D - and the comments in the last paragraph  it did take me a few minutes to adjust to the new size of the massing even though I knew that was coming! 

In that massing the main tower looks to be 500 feet. I know it is unofficial, but Ken, is this based on any inside info you have about it’s height? ?

5 hours ago, Silent Matt said:

In that massing the main tower looks to be 500 feet. I know it is unofficial, but Ken, is this based on any inside info you have about it’s height? ?

 

Unfortunately no. The massing is a little taller than I've heard it *might* be, but I don't want to nitpick.

At this point, this thread might as well stay locked until renderings are made public. 

Crossthreading this to both sides to spare future offtopic locks

I hope they keep Canal Rd. It’s such a convenient connection to the Flats. Even if it’s like the riverfront convention center plans with the structure built over the road. 

 

And I really hope they keep the rail ROW so that the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad can eventually connect to downtown. 

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I hope they keep Canal Rd. It’s such a convenient connection to the Flats. Even if it’s like the riverfront convention center plans with the structure built over the road. 

 

And I really hope they keep the rail ROW so that the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad can eventually connect to downtown. 

 

Keep Canal Road?  To me, its not even a point of discussion. WE must keep Canal otherwise there would no connection from that part of the Flats to another part without going back up into Dowtown or crossing the Carter Bridge onto Scranton Peninsula and then building ANOTHER bridge to connect Scranton Peninsula to where Stones Levee is.   

 

KJP -- Pls tell me SW/Bedrock isn't trying to close Canal. The city has given away WAY too many streets to private interests, destroying the city's grid. 

10 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Keep Canal Road?  To me, its not even a point of discussion. WE must keep Canal otherwise there would no connection from that part of the Flats to another part without going back up into Dowtown or crossing the Carter Bridge onto Scranton Peninsula and then building ANOTHER bridge to connect Scranton Peninsula to where Stones Levee is.   

 

KJP -- Pls tell me SW/Bedrock isn't trying to close Canal. The city has given away WAY too many streets to private interests, destroying the city's grid. 

 

Ha, I knew you’d be all over that, @Pugu

18 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Keep Canal Road?  To me, its not even a point of discussion. WE must keep Canal otherwise there would no connection from that part of the Flats to another part without going back up into Dowtown or crossing the Carter Bridge onto Scranton Peninsula and then building ANOTHER bridge to connect Scranton Peninsula to where Stones Levee is.   

 

KJP -- Pls tell me SW/Bedrock isn't trying to close Canal. The city has given away WAY too many streets to private interests, destroying the city's grid. 

Whoa, I just google walked down that road...it looks like there was a war there. Canal Road looks to be literally falling apart.

53 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Whoa, I just google walked down that road...it looks like there was a war there. Canal Road looks to be literally falling apart.

 

It's part of the charm of descending into the lows of the flats that goes hand in hand with the party culture, going downward in a spiral watching the road crumble as quickly as your standards ?

Ok brainstorming time! What if the city and state agree to close down canal and instead reopen the Eagle St bridge. The state could chip in money because ODOT is always so eager to increase road capacity ?. Then it’s a win win win. Sherwin gets the land, we actually get an improved connection to both banks of the flats (if the bridge approaches somehow tie into both canal and Ontario), it makes the area of “Flats south” much more marketable, and finally, we get an improved riverfront.
 

Now the one caveat is just how much cash it would take to get that bridge up and running again which I know KJP said is quite a lot.

No!  Look at a map---you can't just close Canal--without FORCING cars to go over two movable bridges, one of which has to be constructed. Streets were planned and built for a reason. This isn't the burbs which huge lots between roads.

I thought that’s what I just described? I don’t support closing canal with no alternative which is why I provided the alternative above?

Huron Road is the alternative route. 

Yo to the CLE---that is not a simple alternative. Lets say there's a boat in the river---not that uncommon---so the bridges are open---you want to tie up all the streets waiting for boats to get from one part of canal to another part of canal so you can remove 100' of street?    KJP--Huron is not an alternative either---that's Downtown and not in the Flats--you'd be forcing all traffic to climb up the hill and then down and ADD to any Downtown congestion---why would we want that? Just to giveaway 100' of USABLE, EXIsting road?

 

 

3 hours ago, Pugu said:

KJP -- Pls tell me SW/Bedrock isn't trying to close Canal. The city has given away WAY too many streets to private interests, destroying the city's grid. 

Are u f’n serious?

Most of the traffic on this stretch of Canal Road is going to or from Tower City/Breen Center parking lots that won't exist anymore after CityBlock is built. This road doesn't need to exist especially when something amazing can replace it. What it's replacing looks like what would be left of Cleveland after it was nuked.

If you remove that part of Canal you are effectively dividing part of the flats with NO reasonable connections to the other part.  Forcing cars to cross two bridges---one of which has yet to be built---is not a reasonable option. Removing a piece of I-90--all lanes between Carnegie and Prospect isn't a good idea either.  This is a city not a suburban or college campus, you don't just close streets. The ONLY street of recent discussions that makes sense that SHOULD have been completely closed is Superior through Public Square. In that case there was a compelling major use (a central square) AND a very easy alternative--the other roadways of Public Square that required cars to drive an extra 40 feet maybe---not the mile or so you are suggesting PLUS $120M for a new bridge for construction PLUS $xxxxxx per year to operate the bridge staffing it 24/7/365 PLUS all the extra congestion on streets from unnecessary driving or sitting around emitting CO especially when the bridges are closed for marine traffic.

Can you give some examples? What destinations are you looking at and what routes do you see are needed to reach them without Canal Road? I'm having a hard time understanding the hardship here.

Down with aesthetic enhancements, economic vitality and increased pedestrian connectivity between Public Square and the riverfront. Keep Cleveland beautiful! ?

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by CCC

9 hours ago, CCC said:

Down with aesthetic enhancements, economic vitality and increased pedestrian connectivity between Public Square and the riverfront. Keep Cleveland beautiful! ?

 

Any development along the riverfront and Huron would include a total reconstruction of Canal road. It's current state is irrelevant.

 

Why vacate another street for no reason? It's 180 feet between the Huron and Canal Road right-of-way. That is more than enough for an office building. There's no reason to vacate it other than "well, Sherwin Williams supposedly wants it".

9 hours ago, KJP said:

Can you give some examples? What destinations are you looking at and what routes do you see are needed to reach them without Canal Road? I'm having a hard time understanding the hardship here.

 

Really?  Look at a map. Put an "X" where on the section where Canal would be missing. And look at the endless combinations of things on one side of the X that you could no longer reach on the other side without some very inconvenient detours.  Not to mention if an ambulance had to go through there where every second counts, but instead had to go all the way around or wait for a boat to clear two bridges, that person would likely be dead.

Re. Canal Road: isn't this the city's preferred route for trucks moving between parts of the Flats and the highways?  To keep them off Ohio and downtown streets?

 

I know it won't happen, but I sooo sooo badly want this project, or Rock Ventures project, to incorporate the old steam plant. 

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by StapHanger

36 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

Re. Canal Road: isn't this the city's preferred route for trucks moving between parts of the Flats and the highways?  To keep them off Ohio and downtown streets?

 

I know it won't happen, but I sooo sooo badly want this project, or Rock Ventures project, to incorporate the old steam plant. 

 

Most trucks to/from the Inner Belt/I-77 (which is where most downtown vehicular traffic is bound from/to) travel Ontario to East 9th Extension to the central/southern Flats or Ontario/Huron/Detroit-Superior/West 25th or Main.

 

Eagle Avenue lift bridge (probably without the ramp up to Ontario) should be restored anyway to improve access to Scranton Peninsula. Restoring the Stones Levee bridge over the CSX track could be done too, or if CVSR isn't ever coming downtown, then remove the old condemned bridge and fill in the railroad right of way.

 

Low trucks (like the one in the Google Streetview) can fit under the Canal Road underpass below the RTA tracks but larger trucks cannot. It has only a 14-foot overhead clearance. At some point, RTA and the city are going to have to make a decision on whether to rebuild that wretched underpass or fill it in.

Edited January 28, 20205 yr by KJP

Canal Road is a great cut through if you're going from Tremont or the SE side of the city to the Flats or the Warehouse District or vise-versa.  I'd had to lose it, and it would make even less sense to lose it if/when Scranton Peninsula, Stone's Levee, and the area along Ontario are to be developed.  I'm not so sure how to balance that verses the wishes of such an important corporation as S-W, but I feel we're too quick to give up our public infrastructure for private uses without really looking at the big picture.

Id gladly give up Canal road, on the condition that SHW builds a public boardwalk along the river for the entire site. 

34 minutes ago, JSC216 said:

Id gladly give up Canal road, on the condition that SHW builds a public boardwalk along the river for the entire site. 

 

That sort of horse trading should be part of any deal to give up a public ROW.  Perhaps Canal could be realigned and appropriately traffic calmed and it could go like so:

 

River --- Public Board Walk --- Canal Road --- SW Campus/City Block development --- Huron Road

Would putting the R&D on this site and vacating Canal Road eliminate any chance (however small) of a downtown station for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad?  

It looks like the tracks the CVSR are on come up all the way past the power station and dead end into the drive for the parking lot that used to house Tower City Ampitheater.  Is that right, KJP?

Correct