February 7, 20205 yr Just out of curiosity, is it at all possible to physically move the old stark headquarters to another parcel of land? How much would something like that cost normally?
February 7, 20205 yr This has probably been covered already, but to confirm, does the HQ plan include BOTH the Weston and Jacobs lots? Some of the press descriptions seem to make it sound like it only includes the Weston lots. I hope it includes both.
February 7, 20205 yr Just now, NYC Boomerang said: This has probably been covered already, but to confirm, does the HQ plan include BOTH the Weston and Jacobs lots? Some of the press descriptions seem to make it sound like it only includes the Weston lots. I hope it includes both. There's a map on their new website for the HQ that shows both Weston and Jacobs lot. I've posted it a page or two back.
February 7, 20205 yr Just now, ASPhotoman said: There's a map on their new website for the HQ that shows both Weston and Jacobs lot. I've posted it a page or two back. yes
February 7, 20205 yr 5 minutes ago, NYC Boomerang said: This has probably been covered already, but to confirm, does the HQ plan include BOTH the Weston and Jacobs lots? Some of the press descriptions seem to make it sound like it only includes the Weston lots. I hope it includes both. Yes this has been confirmed now by both Jacobs & Weston.
February 7, 20205 yr Author The Thunderbird portion of Scranton Peninsula was cleaned up and is attracting development. Now it's time to clean up the non-Thunderbird part of Scranton Peninsula and the current SHW R&D facility. Had the rest of Scranton Peninsula been cleaned, the SHW R&D facility would have been announced for that site.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20205 yr 7 minutes ago, simplythis said: What is an approximate cost to clean that site? Step one appears to be getting the idiots at Scranton Averill to answer an e-mail. Edited February 7, 20205 yr by Htsguy
February 7, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, Htsguy said: Step one appears to be getting the idiots at Scranton Averill to an e-mail. hmmm i get it
February 7, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: The Thunderbird portion of Scranton Peninsula was cleaned up and is attracting development. Now it's time to clean up the non-Thunderbird part of Scranton Peninsula and the current SHW R&D facility. Had the rest of Scranton Peninsula been cleaned, the SHW R&D facility would have been announced for that site.... Is Chris saying this as a future prospect for mayor.... Please please....
February 7, 20205 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: The Thunderbird portion of Scranton Peninsula was cleaned up and is attracting development. Now it's time to clean up the non-Thunderbird part of Scranton Peninsula and the current SHW R&D facility. Had the rest of Scranton Peninsula been cleaned, the SHW R&D facility would have been announced for that site.... You are both right that the ENTIRE SCRANTON PENINSULA should have been ALREADY CLEANED UP ENVIRONMENTAL. So that as the old saying goes: ALWAYS BE PREPARED TO SUCCEED and that it takes alot of money to make A TON OF MONEY. And that at the same time: DO THE RIGHT THING for the environment and for the sake of OUR MOTHER CITY: CLEVELAND!! Diatribe over... EDIT: Plus the City has recently completely replaced both Scranton Avenue and Carter Road, with new water, sewers, (with a lot of federal and state help) and Dom also replaced the gas lines too. That's literally millions of dollars of investment in the Scranton Peninsula to provide a great platform to allow investments like Thunderbird and NOW hopefully the remaining 50+ acres that could provide 1,000s of apartments, homes, light industry, offices, restaurants, entertainment... Especially considering that there is already a new riverside park next Scranton Avenue and not to mention the new Great Lakes Brewing brewhouse/canning line to be built as part of the Thunderbird project. NOW Diatribe over... Edited February 7, 20205 yr by Larry1962 Typos and more details
February 7, 20205 yr Author Redirected AGAIN from the Superior Arts District thread... 1 hour ago, cadmen said: Count me as bummed too. I know SHW makes decisions based on what it considers best for the company but as an avid believer in all things urban/anti-sprawl MY best case scenario was to fill the super-block with a 60+ story HQ plus the R+D. Next best case was for the R+D to end up somewhere along the river downtown. Keeping it in the County was next so there's that but, yes I am lamenting the loss of taxes, activity and just more density. By the way the most confusing part in the whole scenario seems to be the lack of interest by the owners of the Scranton land to want govt. aid to help clean up the property. There must be way more to it because what owner turns down free money to clean HIS property. From the reporting it appears not only were they not interested in working with the city/state but they wouldn't even comment on the situation. Weird. And what is the present use? A gloried storage lot on what should be prime river front property. I would love to know what the REAL story is. The real story is that there are is an immense number of lazy property owners in Cleveland who are sitting on their a$$ and collecting rent and that's all that makes them happy. They don't answer e-mails or return phone calls. Some of their principals or boards never meet. Many of them are out of town and haven't been in here in months or even years. When I wrote the Jan. 18 article about what happened on Scranton Peninsula, I had several sources say the property owner's board of directors rarely meets and when they do, it's more like a family reunion with food and drink and reminiscing. The sources said it's no coincidence that, while properties all around the Flats are being developed, or under purchase agreements, or under active negotiation, conspicuously absent are the many properties owned by Scranton-Averell, whose fossilized ownership of these properties goes back 192 years. Their properties are just sitting there, begging for a citywide land value tax to get property owners to either sh!t or get off the pot and let someone else do something productive with their land. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20205 yr 11 minutes ago, KJP said: Redirected AGAIN from the Superior Arts District thread... The real story is that there are is an immense number of lazy property owners in Cleveland who are sitting on their a$$ and collecting rent and that's all that makes them happy. They don't answer e-mails or return phone calls. Some of their principals or boards never meet. Many of them are out of town and haven't been in here in months or even years. When I wrote the Jan. 18 article about what happened on Scranton Peninsula, I had several sources say the property owner's board of directors rarely meets and when they do, it's more like a family reunion with food and drink and reminiscing. The sources said it's no coincidence that, while properties all around the Flats are being developed, or under purchase agreements, or under active negotiation, conspicuously absent are the many properties owned by Scranton-Averell, whose fossilized ownership of these properties goes back 192 years. Their properties are just sitting there, begging for a citywide land value tax to get property owners to either sh!t or get off the pot and let someone else do something productive with their land. Amen brother!!
February 7, 20205 yr Lamenting the R&D move to Brecksville is fine, but It stands to reason the Scranton Averell properties were never seriously in contention for landing Sherwin Williams. Nothing in their generations of history shows they have any interest in selling or developing their properties in Cleveland.
February 7, 20205 yr 16 minutes ago, KJP said: Redirected AGAIN from the Superior Arts District thread... The real story is that there are is an immense number of lazy property owners in Cleveland who are sitting on their a$$ and collecting rent and that's all that makes them happy. They don't answer e-mails or return phone calls. Some of their principals or boards never meet. Many of them are out of town and haven't been in here in months or even years. When I wrote the Jan. 18 article about what happened on Scranton Peninsula, I had several sources say the property owner's board of directors rarely meets and when they do, it's more like a family reunion with food and drink and reminiscing. The sources said it's no coincidence that, while properties all around the Flats are being developed, or under purchase agreements, or under active negotiation, conspicuously absent are the many properties owned by Scranton-Averell, whose fossilized ownership of these properties goes back 192 years. Their properties are just sitting there, begging for a citywide land value tax to get property owners to either sh!t or get off the pot and let someone else do something productive with their land. So is there something we can do to help intervene with this? Writing campaign?
February 7, 20205 yr 11 minutes ago, Mendo said: Lamenting the R&D move to Brecksville is fine, but It stands to reason the Scranton Averell properties were never seriously in contention for landing Sherwin Williams. Nothing in their generations of history shows they have any interest in selling or developing their properties in Cleveland. Except they did SELL the Cap Ferry & Screw Company property on Scranton Avenue a year ago to a developer who is now waiting until the NEORSD completes the construction of their the large underground sewer tunnel so that the developer can then build new townhouses and also rehab the main building for apartments. And to be fair the owners was under a long term joint development agreement with the former Forest City Company and so it has had all their tenants until recently on short term leases to allow for the development which obviously was never done. Once FC sold their 25 acres to the Thunderbird Partnership they was free to sell the land and now HOPEFULLY REDEVELOP their land or sell it to the highest bidder IF they can find a developer who willing to take the risks of cleaning the property. Edited February 7, 20205 yr by Larry1962 Typos and more details
February 7, 20205 yr Author On 2/7/2020 at 1:52 PM, JB said: So is there something we can do to help intervene with this? Writing campaign? This is a nation built on private property rights. If a property owner doesn't care but is conforming to all laws, there's nothing you can do but wait until someone quits or dies and somebody more motivated comes along. The Ferry Cap & Set Screw property sale was one rare time that Scranton-Averell sold property. But we don't know how long that took to go through. The initial offer could have been years ago. I don't know. I would love to know more about how that one happened. There are two ways that the city could force action: One is if the city decides that certain properties are a blight on the community by failing to come up to code, have extensive pollutants and are a threat to the safety and health of the public, then it could take steps to appropriate the affected land. Or, if the city decides to pursue a comprehensive plan to redevelop the Cuyahoga Valley, without specifically targeting an individual property owner(s) at the outset, and not all property owners go along with the overall grand plan, then the city could potentially try to appropriate land to achieve a public goal. Edited February 9, 20205 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20205 yr Can't the city use eminent domain to get the property in the hands of someone willing to develop it?
February 7, 20205 yr ^What KJP explained was Eminent Domain. I don't know if the current administration would use Eminent Domain as a tool for the Scranton Peninsula- the last time it was used was for the Flats East Bank. Edited February 7, 20205 yr by Oldmanladyluck
February 7, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Redirected AGAIN from the Superior Arts District thread... The real story is that there are is an immense number of lazy property owners in Cleveland who are sitting on their a$$ and collecting rent and that's all that makes them happy. They don't answer e-mails or return phone calls. Some of their principals or boards never meet. Many of them are out of town and haven't been in here in months or even years. When I wrote the Jan. 18 article about what happened on Scranton Peninsula, I had several sources say the property owner's board of directors rarely meets and when they do, it's more like a family reunion with food and drink and reminiscing. The sources said it's no coincidence that, while properties all around the Flats are being developed, or under purchase agreements, or under active negotiation, conspicuously absent are the many properties owned by Scranton-Averell, whose fossilized ownership of these properties goes back 192 years. Their properties are just sitting there, begging for a citywide land value tax to get property owners to either sh!t or get off the pot and let someone else do something productive with their land. So here is my Scranton-Averell experience. When I was a baby right out of law school in the early 80s my first job was with a small very old law firm(founded in the 1880s) in the Terminal Tower. One of the partners was Jack Stickney and SA was his biggest client. He might even have been president. I noted that a Tom Stickney is the current president and I am guessing that is Jack's son. I know he had a kid who was in high school or just entering college at the time and I believe he eventually went to law school. By the way Jack was a great guy but I remember he never got to the office until after 10:00 am. I really had very little to do with the SA account but I do remember the shareholders seemed to be located back East and I was under the impression that they were all descendants of the original founders of the company from way back when. Now back then this was not a high tech operation I recall the rent collection paper work was all done by hand and kept in some old big ledger. The books were kept by Blanche, Jacks sweet secretary who was easily in her late 60s. As it is 2020, I am guessing they now have a computer but don't bet the house on that. In any event, one day Jack instructs me to go to some address down in the Flats and post an eviction notice to the door of the building since the lessee was way behind in their monthly rent (which I think was something like $100.00 a month...I doubt there was even a written lease). I remember driving down into the Flat, not knowing where the hell I was going, proceeding at about 5 miles per hour to avoid all the pot holes on what were suppose to be city streets. Nearly 40 years on I am guessing I was somewhere on the peninsula but I could not tell you where today. I pulled up to this small ramshackle one story building with no windows and only one door that looked as if it had been built by whoever came to town right after Moses Cleaveland. I approached the door to post the notice and at the side of the building behind an eight foot high chain linked fence Cujo approached with one goal in mind...make sure I sh*t my pants. He almost succeeded. When I got back to the office i plopped down at my desk, looked out my window at the very dreary Scranton Peninsula and reflected on how glamorous the practice of law is. They neglected to tell us about the vicious dogs in law school. Edited February 7, 20205 yr by Htsguy
February 7, 20205 yr 6 minutes ago, skiwest said: Can't the city use eminent domain to get the property in the hands of someone willing to develop it? The current mayor doesn't like to use eminent domain. And legally now its harder to use because of several Supreme Court decisions over the years. Plus it will take several years in court and then you still have to pay fair market value and then get MILLIONS OF DOLLARS of federal and state grants for a proper environmental cleanup of the property. BUT it maybe necessary at some point...
February 7, 20205 yr Cuyahoga County asking for $14 million in financial incentives for Sherwin-Williams https://www.wkyc.com/article/money/cuyahoga-county-asking-for-14-million-in-financial-incentives-for-sherwin-williams/95-cd3240ea-b31d-4fcc-b53d-c9fabb919216
February 7, 20205 yr Author 8 minutes ago, scb0525 said: Cuyahoga County asking for $14 million in financial incentives for Sherwin-Williams https://www.wkyc.com/article/money/cuyahoga-county-asking-for-14-million-in-financial-incentives-for-sherwin-williams/95-cd3240ea-b31d-4fcc-b53d-c9fabb919216 Wow. And that's the government agency with the "smallest" government incentives for SHW, according to the mayor..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20205 yr Folks, although this is off-topic, I'm posting it here as this thread has the highest visibility. In case it needs to be made absolutely clear - directing profanity at another forumer in a post OR a private message is in violation of forum rules. If a forumer gets contacted by an Admin or Mod in regards to such behavior, it's probably not the best idea to have an abrasive attitude in the response to said Admin or Mod. On a related note, if you see any posts by sfbob, don't bother responding. Ever. Back to your regularly scheduled Sherwin-Williams HQ thread ? clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 7, 20205 yr 8 hours ago, Florida Guy said: ^ Perfect place for a SW flagship retail store. I hope not. I have too much difficulty picking colors at their regular stores. ?
February 7, 20205 yr ^ maybe they could set up a design showroom. then they could assist with paint colors.
February 7, 20205 yr But on a serious note, we should put the Brecksville R&D project in perspective. Of course, I prefer that SHW's R&D site be downtown and anchor what could have been an awesome riverfront destination. However, using the gray field left behind by the VA is a very acceptable second-best option. Also, considering that Valor Acres is planned as 24-hour mixed-use development, this project should get a warmer reception. Edited February 7, 20205 yr by PaxtonMarley
February 7, 20205 yr 34 minutes ago, freefourur said: ^ maybe they could set up a design showroom. then they could assist with paint colors. Great idea. If they had dedicated contractor parking in the garage, I'm sure it would be a very heavily shopped location. There are always workers painting things downtown. Sutton Hardware out on Prospect is about the closest option for them.
February 8, 20205 yr Sherwin-Williams HQ Is Not Coming To DFW https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/news/office/sherwin-williams-hq-is-not-coming-to-dfw-102880#ath
February 8, 20205 yr 32 minutes ago, freethink said: Sherwin-Williams HQ Is Not Coming To DFW https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/news/office/sherwin-williams-hq-is-not-coming-to-dfw-102880#ath I have to laugh at articles like that because I still believe all this "we are looking at our options and may relocate out of the region" was always a bunch of bs despite all the hand wringing and despite the fact mine is probably a minority opinion. Hope we learn the full true story some day but I doubt it.
February 8, 20205 yr On 2/7/2020 at 2:08 PM, KJP said: There are two ways that the city could force action: One is if the city decides that certain properties are a blight on the community by failing to come up to code, have extensive pollutants and are a threat to the safety and health of the public, then it could take steps to appropriate the affected land. Considering what just played out with SW’s R&D Facility, I would think there’s never been a better time than right now for the city of Cleveland to utilize Eminent Domain on the Scranton Peninsula.
February 8, 20205 yr Eminent domain wasn't really intended for that sort of open-ended thing. Ie "we wish you'd do something better with this and than you're doing". It's really designed for situations like where the government wants to build a road to prevent an individual whose property the government would need to buy from just holding up the whole thing because they didn't want to sell. As KJP notes, in general the government can't just force you to sell your land to them (or really to do much of anything in particular with it). In court, the burden of proof is on the government in these cases and they face an uphill battle. Point is, we should probably not spend a lot of time on this topic as it's not a very realistic path in this case.
February 9, 20205 yr https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/02/sherwin-williams-pick-of-new-cleveland-hq-site-stirs-talk-of-more-activity-downtown.html I'm very pleased that this plot of land is finally moving forward.
February 9, 20205 yr https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/02/sherwin-williams-pick-of-new-cleveland-hq-site-stirs-talk-of-more-activity-downtown.html Cleveland.com has posted an article confirming that Sherwin Williams will move into the plot of land northwest of PS.
February 9, 20205 yr I have just been perusing this thread this morning and it kind of hit me. This is going to sound like MR. OBVIOUS and I know we are all pretty much thinking the same, but I don't think anybody has actually come out and said it. In a 5-6 year period Cleveland will lose 4 surface lots, two of which are huge, in our prime business district (Play House Square lot, Krenzler lot and Weston and Jacobs) which have languished for years/decades. This is pretty remarkable for our city. You know, this is kind of exciting.?
February 9, 20205 yr During construction FOR THE LOVE OF GOD the city needs to take away those parking restrictions for the street.
February 9, 20205 yr 21 hours ago, Potamus said: Eminent domain wasn't really intended for that sort of open-ended thing. Ie "we wish you'd do something better with this and than you're doing". It's really designed for situations like where the government wants to build a road to prevent an individual whose property the government would need to buy from just holding up the whole thing because they didn't want to sell. As KJP notes, in general the government can't just force you to sell your land to them (or really to do much of anything in particular with it). In court, the burden of proof is on the government in these cases and they face an uphill battle. Point is, we should probably not spend a lot of time on this topic as it's not a very realistic path in this case. Except that it was used to make the Flats East Bank project happen.
February 10, 20205 yr well thank goodness the decision was announced and those long embarrassing warehouse lots are going away. over the moon about that --- and of course its a big, big win to hold on to sw in general. it will be highly interesting to see what happens next with new residential spinoff, more airport service (was that part of a deal?) and repurposing the landmark and breen. its not often the heart of a downtown gets a whole new look!
February 12, 20205 yr Proposed Sherwin-Williams agreement with Cuyahoga County includes potential help redeveloping Landmark Office Towers https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/proposed-sherwin-williams-agreement-with-cuyahoga-county-includes-potential-help-redeveloping-landmark-office-towers.html
February 12, 20205 yr I was just thinking about it. Is it possible since the new HQ is only going to start at 1million square ft that Sherwin-Williams Williams might initially keep the northern of the two Weston Lots just as a parking lot? Because event if they build 30 stories with only an average of 25k a level on the Jacobs lot that means that they only have 250k sqft left for two lots that are over 6 acres. I know there is parking but still! Edited February 12, 20205 yr by cle_guy90
February 12, 20205 yr Author I suspect they'll keep some "holes" for future expansion because I don't think 1 million square feet is going to be anywhere large enough to consolidate all the SHW HQ/administrative employees here and in Minneapolis. But even if 250K sf is left to spread among 5.65 +/- acres of Weston lots, there's still another 750,000-1 million sf of parking deck to be accounted for. So if it's 1 million sf of offices/parking for the Weston lots, that structure would average 4 floors high over the 5.65 acres. If it's 1.25 million sf of offices/parking, that structure would average 5 floors high over the entire Weston lots. SHW might keep the NE quarter of the Weston lots as surface parking (and the Realife building) and for future expansion. But I don't think the Realife building is going to survive much longer anyway. Working on an article about that now. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18, 20205 yr Author MORE Edited February 18, 20205 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18, 20205 yr I’m as thrilled as anyone that they’re staying, but man these big companies just can’t help themselves from going hog wild at the public trough.
February 19, 20205 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: MORE I'm just wondering if goodyear or eaton have any key markets with inferior air services.... but do what you have to do....
February 19, 20205 yr Author 49 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said: Who is Ted Carter? I don’t remember the name. And "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 19, 20205 yr 4 hours ago, marty15 said: I’m as thrilled as anyone that they’re staying, but man these big companies just can’t help themselves from going hog wild at the public trough. At this point, given how common these kind of incentives are, wouldn't they be foolish not to?
February 19, 20205 yr 8 hours ago, Potamus said: At this point, given how common these kind of incentives are, wouldn't they be foolish not to? I'm very interested to see the 3rd party incentive analysis. I think this project will be tremendous transformation for Cleveland and worth everything that was put forward in terms of incentives. I'm much more bothered by the amount of incentive given to pro sports teams, the Med Mart and other boondoggles come to mind...
February 20, 20205 yr Cleveland’s incentive package to Sherwin-Williams would commit millions to secure Fortune 500 company for generations https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/02/clevelands-incentive-package-to-sherwin-williams-would-commit-millions-to-secure-fortune-500-company-for-generations.html
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