I just wish they would have gone with Robert A.M. Stern as the architect.  Conservative firm, but knows how to integrate things into a city.  Comcast Tower in Philly is a great example.

Quote

There will not any active uses along Frankfort which SHW's HQ development team considers to be an alley.

 

Is this something the city can push back on if it turns out to be the position SW takes? It's Frankfort "Avenue" and about 40 ft row. We need to embrace the more human scale assets the city still has, such as Frankfort. I would hate for Frankfort to turn out like Short Vincent did. 

8 minutes ago, htsfan said:

I just wish they would have gone with Robert A.M. Stern as the architect.  Conservative firm, but knows how to integrate things into a city.  Comcast Tower in Philly is a great example.

 

 

i am sure stern and his firm would love to do it given the outrageously awesome site. he could certainly fit structures in with respecting the warehouse district history and public square face, as well as modern offices, like, say a mini comcast. unfortunately stern is absolute top shelf, so frankly i don't think affordable.

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

I am less concern about lack of any retail given the fact those a huge swath of the Weston lot will be left to other developers according to Ken.  My biggest concern with the potential design is still the parking garage.  However, for all of you that are concerned about blank walls and the like, retail or not, I would check out some of Pickard Chilton's designs.  They are clearly a top notch firm and know what they are doing.  They recently posted a building on Instagram for Akamai Technologies on Kendall Square in Cambridge which I really like.

 

Bottom line, we really are only speculating at this point and probably won't know what we are getting for almost a year so, while it is fun to discuss and we should, for me it is really hard too criticize something I cannot see and has only been vaguely described by anonymous sources.  In any event I can tell it is going to be a long summer on this thread.

 

This is either an elaborate hoax by Sherwin-Williams or it's accurate. Either way, it's a sad commentary on Sherwin-Williams.

So we essentially are still left with a wasteland in terms of street activity separating the Warehouse District from Public Square...sheesh.  Most employees will park at the garage with direct access to the buildings, including the bridge.  I know the north half of the property is planned to be developed to cut down on that wasteland, but a bit of a let down.  Man do I wish the Weston development had moved forward!  

 

I'm certainly not dismissing the impact of retaining all the SW jobs in Cleveland, but we all wanted more.  I guess the most likely way we would have gotten street level public amenities is if a developer built a skyscraper and SW was the major tenant?

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Firenze98

33 minutes ago, Firenze98 said:

So we essentially are still left with a wasteland in terms of street activity separating the Warehouse District from Public Square...sheesh.  Most employees will park at the garage with direct access to the buildings, including the bridge.  I know the north half of the property is planned to be developed to cut down on that wasteland, but a bit of a let down.  Man do I wish the Weston development had moved forward!  

 

I'm certainly not dismissing the impact of retaining all the SW jobs in Cleveland, but we all wanted more.  I guess the most likely way we would have gotten street level public amenities is if a developer built a skyscraper and SW was the major tenant?

Exactly. Company-built towers tend to be insular. I always think about how P&G took a huge swath of downtown Cincinnati and turned it into a wasteland of nothingness when they built the twins.....

1 hour ago, inlovewithCLE said:

How long has BP been gone from that building? It’s been multi tenant for a long time now. Come on

The building's design hasn't changed dramatically since it was built in the mid-80s. I think there've been garage and lobby changes. 

 

Bottom line: it was designed and built as a corporate HQ with public access. If SW wanted to, they could as well.

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder

20 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

The building's design hasn't changed dramatically since it was built in the mid-80s. I think there've been garage and lobby changes. 

 

Bottom line: it was designed and built as a corporate HQ with public access. If SW wanted to, they could as well.

Bottom line: it was designed and built as a corporate HQ with public access IN THE 1980s! Sigh. Bad comparison. And said tower hasn’t been occupied by just one corporate tenant since, what, the 90s? 

Edited February 3, 20214 yr by inlovewithCLE

^ o geez who would have thought we would be longing for 80s architecture? ugh. lol.

27 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

Exactly. Company-built towers tend to be insular. I always think about how P&G took a huge swath of downtown Cincinnati and turned it into a wasteland of nothingness when they built the twins.....

 

It's hard to believe but P&G does rent space in the twin towers to other companies.  The original building from around 1960 is only P&G, though.  

^ yes there is a barber shop too.

some of those headquarters in Pittsburgh seem pretty thoughtful with plazas and stores n such 

1 minute ago, Whipjacka said:

some of those headquarters in Pittsburgh seem pretty thoughtful with plazas and stores n such 

 

 

wait, are you insinuating that kind of thing is actually possible?!!

 

oh and btw nice avatar. i must have watched isis 50 times on that insanely awesome scorsese/dylan faux documentary rolling thunder review.

The comparison to the BP tower is antiquated. Security requirements have changed. As much as some admire Amazon for building their facilities in urbanized areas, they are walled gardens with security requirements. Some may have better pedestrian interactions on the street, but most corporate entities will be similar to the Federal Reserve Bank: insular.

5 minutes ago, seicer said:

The comparison to the BP tower is antiquated. Security requirements have changed. As much as some admire Amazon for building their facilities in urbanized areas, they are walled gardens with security requirements. Some may have better pedestrian interactions on the street, but most corporate entities will be similar to the Federal Reserve Bank: insular.

EXACTLY. Why is this so hard to understand? Lol

nonsense.

 

actually the suburban styled fortress, particularly one placed smak in the middle of the city, is what is antiquated.

 

there are limited access mixed use buildings built all day long.

 

there is no reason you cant have an active street level and no outsider access above. 

 

the r&d building i would understand, but certainly not any of this.

17 hours ago, seicer said:

The comparison to the BP tower is antiquated. Security requirements have changed. As much as some admire Amazon for building their facilities in urbanized areas, they are walled gardens with security requirements. Some may have better pedestrian interactions on the street, but most corporate entities will be similar to the Federal Reserve Bank: insular.

Clearly security has changed. And some buildings downtown have even less security than BP.

 

But there are lots of new buildings that have public access on the ground floor. The E&Y building is a good example. There's a cafe and some similar stuff on the first floor, although the security on the building is very tight.

2 hours ago, cadmen said:

At the rate this project keeps spiraling down by the time it opens in 202? I'm afraid we'll end up with a giant cardboard box. I say we cut bait on the whole thing and turn those empty lots into a Walmart. From what I understand Walmart is very popular with the people. Problem solved.

With blank windowless walls lined with yews. 

24 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

actually the suburban styled fortress, particularly one placed smak in the middle of the city, is what is antiquated.

Preach!

 

Thank you!

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

some of those headquarters in Pittsburgh seem pretty thoughtful with plazas and stores n such 

 

PPG Place (paint company headquarters) has the Plaza at PPG Place which spills over Fourth Street and leads to Market Square.  It's nothing groundbreaking, but it gets plenty of pedestrian traffic and is welcoming in all seasons of the year.  

 

 

I'm actually trying to think of a downtown Cleveland office building where the public cannot access amenity space on the ground or other floor(s).  Ohio Bell Building? (I cant remember ever being in that one)  Still we don't know if this is SW's official position. If it is, then that's hogwash.

Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland

1 minute ago, seicer said:

Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland

Money Museum

Just now, seicer said:

Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland

 

There's a Learning Center & Money Museum in the Cleveland Federal Reserve Bank.

https://www.clevelandfed.org/learningcenter.aspx

 

It's an okay way to spend a half hour. I visited moreso to take pictures of the amazing architecture. 

Oh! I forgot about that. All I remembered was having to take my belt off every day just to go through security. I only got a brief tour of the museum. The rest of the building was either amazing with loads of historic architecture or the most bland office space imaginable. No in-betweens.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

there is no reason you cant have an active street level and no outsider access above. 

 

the r&d building i would understand, but certainly not any of this.

This.

The 'OMG Security!' is much more a product of SHW's corporate culture of paranoia and siege mentality, than anything else.

In Cincinnati, Fifth Third Bank's corporate headquarters (who if you remember had a shooting in their lobby in 2018) is renovating their lobby and streetscape presence on Fountain Square. They are limiting entrances and creating less ways in and out and centralizing on one common lobby space; HOWEVER, there is still a very public presence to Fountain Square, a publicly accessible 5/3 bank branch, a Graeter's Ice Cream, a Dunkin', a Chipotle and more on the ground floor of their building and attached parking garage. 

 

If any company is worried about security, it's 5/3, who again was a victim of a shooting which helped to spur this renovation and re-work of their entrances and even they have a much more publicly accessible street frontage. It's not impossible, its just about the effort/desire to do so.

1 hour ago, seicer said:

Oh! I forgot about that. All I remembered was having to take my belt off every day just to go through security. I only got a brief tour of the museum. The rest of the building was either amazing with loads of historic architecture or the most bland office space imaginable. No in-betweens.

FRB, the original building, along with the Money Museum and vault area, are being renovated as we speak. It’s being done in phases over the next 3 years.

Drove through PS a few minutes ago. Channel 3 had a crew at the Jacobs lot. Camera set up facing the lot. 

Ah, I get it now. SHW is building the National City building.

33 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Drove through PS a few minutes ago. Channel 3 had a crew at the Jacobs lot. Camera set up facing the lot. 

Did they report anything on the 6:00 pm news? I didn't get a chance to watch.

Time to launch a write-in campaign.  

 

Dear Meesrs. Sherwin-Williams,

 

We members of the UrbanOhio.com community are here to offer our support over the next three years to your HQ design process.  Our point of departure is found in the link pasted below of 2019 worldwide paint/coating sales distribution.   Lo and behold, there seems to be a tie-in to a portion of your market to a favorite topic of our community.   Yes, Architecture!  Apparently 40% of the worldwide market share of the paint/coatings per the sourced link below.   

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/887116/distribution-paint-and-coatings-sales-value-by-category/

 

Let's drill it down.  There's the linkage between your own market opportunities and your need to inspire and recruit the next generation of SW employees.   Great! And we are here to help. 

 

Obviously, with no other intentions other than our appreciation for great architecture, a shared love of the city of Cleveland, and a sincere gratitude for the economic activity your company brings to NE Ohio.  The gift of a link between thoughtful architecture generating creative inspiration for your employees and your future customers' needs is the best "win-win" opportunity that could be imagined. 

 

Again, don't feel shy if you wish to reach out to us anytime 24/7  (which apparently is the exact amount of time many of us are spending on this board impatient for the next dropped clue!) 

 

Respectively Yours,

 

UrbanOhio.com Special Design and Architectural Advisory Team 

    

 

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Drove through PS a few minutes ago. Channel 3 had a crew at the Jacobs lot. Camera set up facing the lot. 

 

We'll see how much original reporting they do.

Everything we are hearing is speculation. I know some of it may be true. But I think  we should wait until we hear from Sherman Willims themselves before we all draw a conclusion of what the actual building will look like and how tall it will be. Like others I am also anxious to find out the the ending results will.  We will just wait and see.

 

I could be wrong, but maybe we just aren’t seeing the forest through the trees.
 

We’ve heard about spinoff development as a result of Sherwin-Williams choosing public square as their future address.  
 

I think it’s more realistic to ask that spin off activate the street than it is an office building.

 

I’ve yet to spend a night at the FEB and think man, the EY tower really needs to open their lobby to the public.

 

I’m going to reserve judgment until at least a few years after the completion of this project.

Edited February 4, 20214 yr by Sapper Daddy

2 hours ago, jimphilpat1 said:

Everything we are hearing is speculation. I know some of it may be true. But I think  we should wait until we hear from Sherman Willims themselves before we all draw a conclusion of what the actual building will look like and how tall it will be. 

 

Except that most of what we’re reacting to is more than just speculation - it’s based on the best reporting we have and multiple sources.  As @KJPsaid, what he’s learned is either  accurate or it’s misinformation- which is head scratching - why would SW go out of their way to misdirect as to their direction on design?  
 

And though many expressing dissatisfaction - at this juncture - may  seem pointless - I actually think it matters - at least a little bit. SW can’t be completely deaf dumb and blind as to the court of public opinion.  We’ve already learned that “pushback” may have raised the height of the tower by up to 10 stories.  

 

Like others, Ive been trying to make 
sense of this story and I think money may be the principle factor. SW gets  the prestige of a PS location but they keep costs at the lower end of what they think provides an “acceptable” (perhaps I should use the word “competitive”)  HQ Tower. 
 

What gives me reason to be hopeful regarding design  , based on @KJPreporting, is that the main reason  for a delayed timeline - is a need for more time in the design phase. Maybe options  are still being evaluated. 
 

Do I think the Urban Ohio forum can influence SW’s  design process?  Perhaps not - but I’d be surprised  if they are unaware of the general consensus of our community. 

Edited February 4, 20214 yr by CleveFan

At this point, we just wait for SW to announce its final plans, whenever that happens.  This thread is in its 14th year initially about developing the PS Jacobs lot that has morphed into SW HQ. 

 

We’ve been through short, tall, medium sized bldgs,, R&D here, there, now going to Brecksville.  This parcel, that lot, now going maybe here. Rumor of this, rumor of that. Rivaling Key Tower, now a 50K-80K sf CoE on PS. Whatever.

 

Now back to “square” one default thinking...”at least those empty scars of parking lots will be developed”. Which is a good thing of course. 
 

What is a concern though is the extended 2025 completion date. Evaluating design options is taking this long and isn’t expected until mid’22 or so.  SW could also be evaluating its office space needs as well, especially post-pandemic. Lots of companies, firms etc are reevaluating space needs and many are cutting space due to how smoothly remote work went and the desire of many workers to not return to full time, if at all, daily in-house work.

 

The sooner SW commits to its final plans the better; strung out time commitments may backfire for CLE, not SW, a “revered” PS setting or not.

 

not saying this is the reason for the most recent delay but it certainly can’t be ruled out as we move into a post pandemic reality.  Nothing is off the table until we see SW final plans and shovels turning dirt.

 

still hoping for at least a 600’ tower...on any of these lots.

 

I was hoping to see final plans by this spring/early summer. Add a year+ to this timeframe because of the need for an extended “design”? Hmm...

I don't think they were ever as far as along as we believed they were a few months ago. I am also going to take the wait and see attitude. Its fun to get these scoops and rumors and reports and analyze them to death... but at the end of the day we dont know officially until something is official. I hope that will be relatively soon, for our own sanity... but I am not going to overreact just yet!

Weren't they all set to build on this site before the Valspar acquisition?  Haven't they been considering this project, on this site, for years?  I get that this is a big project, but commercial office design isn't exactly rocket science either.  And by all indications, they are proposing anything that hasn't already been built a million times.  

Exactly! It  seems like they should have had an idea of what they wanted a long time ago.

Is there any data on the economic benefit this project will have? 

 

Or better yet, does anyone know if there is general consensus on the value of cities providing economic development incentives?  I get that 3500 jobs leaving Cleveland would have been devastating, but keeping them here also cost the City $100M.  I realize the economics are complicated, but I would assume it might take Cleveland 10-15 years to break even on that deal.  Meanwhile that money could have been used on things like airport improvements, downtown loop, multi-modal transit center, and other things that would actually make Cleveland a place companies might WANT to be located in.  It just feels like cities like Cleveland are between a rock and a hard place.

 

I'm genuinely interested in learning more about this- I figured you all might have some insight.

 

Sorry if this isn't "on topic"  Feel free to move it to another thread.

heights aside, really, in the end, we just want a modern sw campus that is attractive, inviting, urban and yes somewhat interactive, in other words one that encourages cleveland's downtown growth and residential development, rather than a fortress that works against it.

 

and thats only of primary importance given the site is basically cleveland's front porch, not east 9th, or downtown over by the lake as people would say, like galleria/erieview, fbi, tv station, etc., or the weston siting. 

 

its an important ask, but i just dont think its a big ask, design-wise, or modern corporate mentality wise either for a growing company.

21 hours ago, CLENYC said:

At this point, we just wait for SW to announce its final plans, whenever that happens.  This thread is in its 14th year initially about developing the PS Jacobs lot that has morphed into SW HQ.

 

Hey SW -- if you've moved your HQ Tower off of square for security reasons, and you're planning a museum/training center on the Jacobs Lot, UO would like you to consider (this is not a request) making space for a Starbucks on the ground floor facing the square and topping it with a hotel.  Thanks!

30 minutes ago, Dino said:

Is there any data on the economic benefit this project will have? 

 

Or better yet, does anyone know if there is general consensus on the value of cities providing economic development incentives?  I get that 3500 jobs leaving Cleveland would have been devastating, but keeping them here also cost the City $100M.  I realize the economics are complicated, but I would assume it might take Cleveland 10-15 years to break even on that deal.  Meanwhile that money could have been used on things like airport improvements, downtown loop, multi-modal transit center, and other things that would actually make Cleveland a place companies might WANT to be located in.  It just feels like cities like Cleveland are between a rock and a hard place.

 

I'm genuinely interested in learning more about this- I figured you all might have some insight.

 

Sorry if this isn't "on topic"  Feel free to move it to another thread.

Here’s the issue, Cleveland could’ve spent the money in all of the things that you suggested and still not be able to attract companies without tax breaks/subsidies. Why? Because Columbus or Chicago or name your city will put it on the table. When we say stuff like that it’s like we forget that we’re in a nationwide competition for resources, for business, for income generation. No company, ESPECIALLY a publicly traded company who has a fiduciary responsibility by LAW to generate profit for its shareholders, will say “yeah I know Atlanta is offering us all this money to move there, but we’re gonna pick Cleveland even though they aren’t offering us anything financially because we love their downtown loop.” That will never ever happen and if it did, that company’s board of directors would fire the CEO on the spot, or the shareholders would revolt. You gotta understand all of the elements at play. We are in a competition with other locales for these same businesses, and there’s always someone trying to poach something from us. So not giving the money/tax break that you KNOW someone else will is basically opening the door and daring a company to leave. We’ve tried that too. Didn’t work out so well

If you want to start a thread for that discussion, have at.  But this is really a thread for discussing the development project, not the economics of corporate incentives.

On 2/5/2021 at 11:46 AM, Dino said:

Weren't they all set to build on this site before the Valspar acquisition?  Haven't they been considering this project, on this site, for years?  I get that this is a big project, but commercial office design isn't exactly rocket science either.  And by all indications, they are proposing anything that hasn't already been built a million times.  

Not all set to build on these lots before Valspar acquisition considering SW purchased them in 2019 but point taken otherwise.

 

we heard some SW folks pushed back on “not tall enough” HQ building design plans and that these plans were going to be tweaked up a bit.  If true, there are plans which is why we should have seen plans this winter into spring.

 

now we’re told not to expect design plans for another year, into 2022.

 

something is up here.  No way does it take this long to see design plans, especially, if true regarding  blowback about design plans already presented in house to SW.  Even if not true, considering the development team was set this past September (could have a lot earlier), no excuse to not have design plans by, at a minimum, this spring.

 

SW is stalling this project and using the delay in design plans to cover it.  Not cancelling it but delayed for a real possible wait n see for the post-Covid reality of actual and final office space requirements.  Certainly can’t be ruled out otherwise why aren’t we going to see dirt turning by this summer (‘21) instead of the now expected summer ‘22?

 

 

 

 

Relax- you should read through this thread a bit. @KJPalready addressed SW in the post Covid world.

1 hour ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Relax- you should read through this thread a bit. @KJPalready addressed SW in the post Covid world.

 

 

Actually, SHW addressed it. From one of their press releases.....

 

"We recognize that the development, engagement and sense of community our employees share has been essential to our success for more than 150 years and would be difficult to sustain over the long-term with a remote-based workforce." -- SHW CEO John Morikis

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/buildingourfuture/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/BOF-Press-Release-_9.15.2020-1.pdf

 

Why is it taking so long? Very few things are a conspiracy. Sometimes (uh, usually) sh!t happens. Roll with it/deal with it/make the best out of it.

3 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Relax- you should read through this thread a bit. @KJPalready addressed SW in the post Covid world.

Who’s mad?

 

I’m well aware of SW September announcement about full staffing downtown. Didn’t say it was a certainty but design plans and new expected groundbreaking delays taking 2 years from September 2019 ?

 

SW also said it wanted it the project done 2023, 2024...now it’s 2025. That’s all.  There’s a delay and I doubt its because of “design”.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Actually, SHW addressed it. From one of their press releases.....

 

"We recognize that the development, engagement and sense of community our employees share has been essential to our success for more than 150 years and would be difficult to sustain over the long-term with a remote-based workforce." -- SHW CEO John Morikis

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/buildingourfuture/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/BOF-Press-Release-_9.15.2020-1.pdf

 

Why is it taking so long? Very few things are a conspiracy. Sometimes (uh, usually) sh!t happens. Roll with it/deal with it/make the best out of it.

Well then don’t throw out there that’s the latest delay is due to design, just go with sh!t happens like you are now.  Sh!t happens but this world renowned architecture firm can’t come up with plans until now 2022? I don’t buy that, then again it’s all based on rumors.

 

rumors care OK but a possible reconfiguration topic isn’t allowed because it’s a “conspiracy”

 

 I’m not the only poster who mentioned this design delay excuse either.

 

For a thread that started when Bush 44 was in office, delays and glacial movement should be expected I suppose.

 

you actually believe this CK firm or whatever can’t come up with design plans? The article said some SW officials didn’t like the plans presented a few months ago. Now it’s just “sh!t happens? Nice.

Edited February 7, 20214 yr by CLENYC