^Agreed. We should've found a way to give the old VA to the Metroparks to prevent any development of that site

37 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

.... They are also of the opinion that the UC VA more or less absorbed their site, and are not inclined to be accommodating

 

 

what is the "UC VA"?

1 minute ago, Pugu said:

 

what is the "UC VA"?

University Circle Veterans Affairs Hospital. 

They better not leave. Would be such a slap in the face to the city that helped build their fortune as the #1 coatings company in the world. But yeah, Cleveland also needs to put in some effort to keep em.

2 minutes ago, CLE_Millennial said:

They better not leave. Would be such a slap in the face to the city that helped build their fortune as the #1 coatings company in the world. But yeah, Cleveland also needs to put in some effort to keep em.

 

They wouldn't see it as leaving, and other than urbanists and downtown advocates, neither will too many others.

 

County government's not about to take sides, it's up to the city.

 

Wor

^True, the county must be impartial. However, given the southern location, that means, as KJP said, people will move into summit and medina counties--so the county would lose population, so its in the county's interest to not support a move from Downtown to a southern suburb.

6 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

They wouldn't see it as leaving, and other than urbanists and downtown advocates, neither will too many others.

 

County government's not about to take sides, it's up to the city.

 

Wor

I work with county development a lot. They are definitely partial to downtown development and they do not make that a secret. However, if there is outside the county competition then they will definitely just be happy for any site in the county.

7 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

They wouldn't see it as leaving, and other than urbanists and downtown advocates, neither will too many others.

 

County government's not about to take sides, it's up to the city.

 

Wor

 

Are you sure about that?

There would be an uproar if SW left Cleveland. The city should (and will) do everything it can to keep them here but it’s hard to believe they would make such a backwards decision. I hope this is just them doing their due diligence 

2 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

There would be an uproar if SW left Cleveland. The city should (and will) do everything it can to keep them here but it’s hard to believe they would make such a backwards decision. I hope this is just them doing their due diligence 

I feel they sort of have to do their due diligence, how else could they maximize the incentives they receive?  However, it still is a reason for concern.

 

I emailed Dan Brady, Jack Schron, Kevin Kelley and Kerry McCormack.  Is there even a point to emailing asleep at the wheel Frank?

8 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

I feel they sort of have to do their due diligence, how else could they maximize the incentives they receive?  However, it still is a reason for concern.

 

I emailed Dan Brady, Jack Schron, Kevin Kelley and Kerry McCormack.  Is there even a point to emailing asleep at the wheel Frank?

This is definitely concerning news. I’m cautiously optimistic that emailing will show the support of the community, so I hope that the more people who reach out, the better.

 

Shouldn’t we also email the Downtown Cleveland Alliance folks? I feel like they would have a big say/would be big advocates for making sure SW stays in downtown....

I emailed Kerry McCormack and Tony Brancatelli. Losing Progressive because the city wouldn't build a parking platform was a terrible blunder. Losing Eaton because the mayor didn't put enough emphasis on helping them make the Flats site work was terribly short-sighted. Losing SW would be a real kick in the ass to all of the recent downtown renewal. 

 

What really concerns me is lack of political leadership here. This is a high stakes game. Cleveland cannot lose SW because its politicians were either asleep at the wheel or to incompetent to do what is necessary. 

 

I think our only real shot is if SW would actually prefer to remain downtown. They stay ONLY because it's what they prefer and not because the city figured out a way to keep them. 

What I posted in this thread early this morning was also shared by me on Twitter. It got me followed by Vic Digeronimo Jr. (@vicdigjr). Based on his profile pic and many of his posts, I'm pretty sure he's not a practicing urbanist. ? FWIW, the county's official Twitter account also followed me.

I sent my email to the mayor’s office- I know, on its own, that it has no cache.  But hopefully, there will be many others including those with more important voices reminding our leadership that losing SW downtown is really not acceptable. This proud city has done much to shake off its old, unfairly negative image and has some real momentum  but it’s still in a fight for its continued relevancy and Renaissance in the 21st century. I hope there is a sense of urgency on the part of city leadership to do whatever is creatively possible to keep this corporation downtown. (And I sure wouldn’t mind seeing a new tower rise on public square!) 

^^ Via indirect means I've come across the Digeronimo's once or twice. They seemed like decent enough people, but  are also firmly entrenched in the 'why wouldn't everyone want to live in a McMansion on a 5 acre plot. It's a sign you've made it.' mentality.  Needless to say, they are also very well connected.

Edited July 19, 20195 yr by roman totale XVII

1 minute ago, roman totale XVII said:

 Needless to say, they are also very well connected.

For years and years. 

Hopefully this is just a negotiating ploy.  I've read that Eaton has regretted it's move to the suburbs and is struggling to attract talent as a result.  Saving a few bucks moving to the suburbs is great - until you cannot attract the talent that will help keep your organization competitive.  Young talented people want to live and work in a vibrant downtown (or worst case, close-in suburbs - i.e., not Brecksville).    Hopefully the SHWs team is smart, recognizes this trend and doesn't shoot themselves in the foot by doing something to save $$s that is short-sighted.

I very much regret to say this, but the CEO lives in Brecksville.

3 minutes ago, ydard said:

I very much regret to say this, but the CEO lives in Brecksville.

I would be more concerned if he lived in Dallas

If SW hadn’t acquired Valspar, we’d be looking at a half-built skyscraper by this point. I wish they hadn’t made that deal. 

13 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

If SW hadn’t acquired Valspar, we’d be looking at a half-built skyscraper by this point. I wish they hadn’t made that deal. 

Made them stronger. May get bigger skyscraper now. Move Valspar employees to Cleveland and have Cleveland on the winning side of the deal for a change.

1 minute ago, Mildtraumatic said:

Made them stronger. May get bigger skyscraper now. Move Valspar employees to Cleveland and have Cleveland on the winning side of the deal for a change.

Minneapolis is try’na steal your date. She’s a 10 and smart and we’re a 6 with issues. 

2 minutes ago, jfristik said:

Victory Capital Holdings announced this year that they will move their HQ to San Antonio... one of the cited reasons is attracting talent. it's a sad loss as they are growing very rapidly

 

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2019/01/10/1686344/0/en/Victory-Capital-to-Move-Headquarters-to-San-Antonio-Texas.html

It seems that this is the element that alludes most people surprised by our job loss, loss of businesses and population decline. Talent is what drives economics. Talent is notoriously picky. They will not live in a podunk town when there is an alternative that is more attractive. Businesses must go where they are more likely to attract talent. 

 

Did you think Minneapolis was just gonna hand over those jobs? Nah, they’re gonna work the talent angle. That city is out there hustling to grow. 

Back to SW. Hopefully, this is just SW doing their  due diligence. 

 

THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 2019

HQ, R&D search shrouded in a fog of Sherwin-Williams rumors

 

If you try to go whaling in the ocean of rumors for Sherwin Williams' (SHW) headquarters and research/development facilities, bring two things with you: hip waders and a fog lamp. Unfortunately, at this early stage, neither of those are going to help you make much sense of so much conflicting, disorienting information in trying to catch The Whale, aka SHW's HQ and R&D facilities.

Apart from Amazon's HQ2, which Cleveland didn't seem to have a strong chance at winning, it's been a long time since Cleveland real estate firms had a shot at The Big Get, or what's called in real estate circles "A Whale."

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/08/hq-r-search-shrounded-in-fog-of-sherwin.html

SHW building on that lot makes too much sense.  CLE needs this to happen if we want this boom to continue.  

I would be OK with a low rise live / work campus on Scranton Peninsula  - akin to Nationwide in Columbus

 

(But this is the Jacob's lot thread not the SW HQ thread.....sorry)

Edited August 1, 20195 yr by punch

Nicely written blog post KJP.

Thanks for the update @KJP. Thank god, according to your report, that the GCP  and other "big shots" are working to keep them downtown. The loss of a Fortune 500 company to the burbs because the CEO lives there and might think it "convenient" is unacceptable and it should be all-hands-on-deck and then some to get this to happen. Let's hope the rumor that Jacobs being the only location they're considering is true. My optimism tells me that for how much they've already bolstered the city/downtown job market through the "tough times", they wouldn't want to undo all of that by taking everything out of downtown. My pessimism tells me that the personal interests of a few will get in the way.

 

Edit: Although, by the wording of the article, it makes it seem as though Vocon is developing plans for SW to build in downtown no matter if R&D is separated or not. Is this the case because Valor Acres has already been designed, or because SW is staying downtown?

Edited August 1, 20195 yr by Geowizical

Long time reader, first time to reply.    Not too long ago @KJP asked that we follow up with local government, which I did, asking them to do what they can to keep SW in Cleveland.  The only response I received was from Anthony Brancatelli, who stated:  "Thanks for contacting me regarding Sherwin Williams.  The City of Cleveland made an incredibly generous offer for them to build on Public Square.  If they turn it down, then it is on them for leaving Cleveland."  

 

 

6 minutes ago, jstuski said:

Long time reader, first time to reply.    Not too long ago @KJP asked that we follow up with local government, which I did, asking them to do what they can to keep SW in Cleveland.  The only response I received was from Anthony Brancatelli, who stated:  "Thanks for contacting me regarding Sherwin Williams.  The City of Cleveland made an incredibly generous offer for them to build on Public Square.  If they turn it down, then it is on them for leaving Cleveland."  

 

 

Great first post! I wonder how generous it was... ??

On 8/1/2019 at 4:38 PM, Geowizical said:

Edit: Although, by the wording of the article, it makes it seem as though Vocon is developing plans for SW to build in downtown no matter if R&D is separated or not. Is this the case because Valor Acres has already been designed, or because SW is staying downtown?

 

What I don't know who hired Vocon -- Sherwin-Williams or a civic booster organization like GCP. But yes, Vocon was developing plans for downtown sites.

 

On 8/1/2019 at 5:45 PM, jstuski said:

Long time reader, first time to reply.    Not too long ago @KJP asked that we follow up with local government, which I did, asking them to do what they can to keep SW in Cleveland.  The only response I received was from Anthony Brancatelli, who stated:  "Thanks for contacting me regarding Sherwin Williams.  The City of Cleveland made an incredibly generous offer for them to build on Public Square.  If they turn it down, then it is on them for leaving Cleveland." 

 

 

Yes, an outstanding first post, with some pretty important information I've never heard before. I would love to hear about the incentive package. 

Edited August 11, 20195 yr by KJP

In addition to sounding out to the local officials about keeping SW downtown, maybe the higher ups at SW could use some reminders too. Remind them of all the companies who went the other way, out to the burbs (Eaton, American Greetings, etc) who now have trouble finding talent, and those stuck in the burbs for personal vendettas (cough - Progressive - cough) who have to open downtown outposts for the same reason. Are there any Fortune 500 companies around the country who have moved out of downtown recently? I've only heard of them coming in.

Lets get Progressive to come back downtown too...  oh wait wrong thread....

 

Gilbert is currently building a 912 foot tower in downtown Detroit. I wish we had someone here like him. He basically put Downtown Detroit on his back.  He did what Progressive should do, move and consolidate all their offices downtown.

14 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

In addition to sounding out to the local officials about keeping SW downtown, maybe the higher ups at SW could use some reminders too. Remind them of all the companies who went the other way, out to the burbs (Eaton, American Greetings, etc) who now have trouble finding talent, and those stuck in the burbs for personal vendettas (cough - Progressive - cough) who have to open downtown outposts for the same reason. Are there any Fortune 500 companies around the country who have moved out of downtown recently? I've only heard of them coming in.

 

Serious question, is there actually any legitimacy to Eaton and American Greetings struggling to attract talent? I feel like this idea has grown from “they probably will” to “they are” to “they regret moving” without any actual facts. Like a bad game of telephone. 

 

As for Progressive the downtown outpost is tiny strategy team of 40 people and has nothing to do with them struggling to attract talent. In fact Progressive has been expanding their presence in the suburbs with purchases of buildings, new construction, and thousands of new jobs.

 

That being said I would love to have these companies downtown. 

31 minutes ago, JSC216 said:

 

Serious question, is there actually any legitimacy to Eaton and American Greetings struggling to attract talent? I feel like this idea has grown from “they probably will” to “they are” to “they regret moving” without any actual facts. Like a bad game of telephone. 

 

As for Progressive the downtown outpost is tiny strategy team of 40 people and has nothing to do with them struggling to attract talent. In fact Progressive has been expanding their presence in the suburbs with purchases of buildings, new construction, and thousands of new jobs.

 

That being said I would love to have these companies downtown. 

That is a good question.  I don't know if this is sort of an "urban legend" as it relates to Cleveland (I am 100% percent sure it is the case for coast cities) which is promoted by all us urban crazies on this board as I have never actually seen any studies supporting this...maybe just some antidotes here and there.  My gut is that these firms may not have a problem attracting local talent but do have more issues with attracting talent from east coast urban centers and MBAs and the like from the top schools where they do recruit.

 

I am sure there are top people at Progressive who would like to move downtown, but keep in mind that they have a fiduciary duty to their share holders first and foremost and not the city of Cleveland.  They have spent a huge sum of corporate assets the past decade building and expanding on the east side and they might have a hard time justifying the cost of building a new corporate headquarters.  Also, it is very true that over the years they have built up a work force which is very happy to work close to their suburban homes and would probably have a hissy fit if forced downtown.

22 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

My gut is that these firms may not have a problem attracting local talent but do have more issues with attracting talent from east coast urban centers and MBAs and the like from the top schools where they do recruit.

 

I’m curious if there is any measurable difference between downtown and suburban companies though, or if it’s just a regional attraction issue. I would guess that unfortunately this talent would chose suburban offices in coastal cities over downtown offices in Midwest cities like Cleveland the majority of the time. 

27 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

That is a good question.  I don't know if this is sort of an "urban legend" as it relates to Cleveland (I am 100% percent sure it is the case for coast cities) which is promoted by all us urban crazies on this board as I have never actually seen any studies supporting this...maybe just some antidotes here and there.  My gut is that these firms may not have a problem attracting local talent but do have more issues with attracting talent from east coast urban centers and MBAs and the like from the top schools where they do recruit.

 

I am sure there are top people at Progressive who would like to move downtown, but keep in mind that they have a fiduciary duty to their share holders first and foremost and not the city of Cleveland.  They have spent a huge sum of corporate assets the past decade building and expanding on the east side and they might have a hard time justifying the cost of building a new corporate headquarters.  Also, it is very true that over the years they have built up a work force which is very happy to work close to their suburban homes and would probably have a hissy fit if forced downtown.

 

I was going to mention that Progressive more than likely has too much in sunk costs to move off of I271 at this point.  it'll be years down the road before it can be justified.

Couldn't they partner with any of the developers working on larger projects downtown as a small commitment just to get their name on the side of the building. This could work great for Sherwin Williams and the Jacobs lot; build it 5 stories taller for future growth, but in the mean time lease to Progressive. (Could work for nucleus too, but that's a whole different thread.)

18 minutes ago, JSC216 said:

 

I’m curious if there is any measurable difference between downtown and suburban companies though, or if it’s just a regional attraction issue. I would guess that unfortunately this talent would chose suburban offices in coastal cities over downtown offices in Midwest cities like Cleveland the majority of the time. 

Don't want to get too far off topic but I can provide a personal story.

 

In the mid 80's I was working for a small downtown law firm and wanted to make a change (a more dynamic environment and more $$).  I applied all over town and interviewed extensively for a position with Progressive as my job search went on.  I was offered a position that paid 60% more than my current salary and after careful consideration turned the offer down.  At the time I did so I did not have any other job offers, although I did have a few irons in the fire.  There were a couple of reasons I did not take the job but the primary consideration was I could not see myself going to work in a squat one story flex space off of Wilson Mills Road five days a week. 

 

A couple of months later I took a job with a larger law firm in the Huntington Building,  The salary was about 20% less than the Progressive offer.  Bottom line for me was that even back then I would rather work downtown for less $$ than in the far off suburbs.  Never regretted the decision.  It was a quality of life issue for me (of course a quality of life that may not appeal to others).

You're my hero, Htsguy. I probably would have done the same thing, even though that wasn't so en vogue to do so in the 1980s. I think we were pretty far ahead of our time.

 

I will say that the worst time I ever had working at Sun Newspapers was when I had to cover the Avon Lake beat for them. As soon as a Cleveland beat writer position opened up, I jumped at it.

8 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

It was a quality of life issue for me (of course a quality of life that may not appeal to others).

 

Yeah it really comes down to personal preferences and what people value the most, and how highly they value that. I work downtown and location was definitely a big factor in my selection, as it would be for most people on this site. Unfortunately a lot of people view working downtown negatively due to the commute, traffic, and paying for parking. I will say the comments and fear of crime downtown have kind of disappeared from those discussions in the last several years, at least from what I have heard/read. 

2 hours ago, JSC216 said:

 

Serious question, is there actually any legitimacy to Eaton and American Greetings struggling to attract talent? I feel like this idea has grown from “they probably will” to “they are” to “they regret moving” without any actual facts. Like a bad game of telephone. 

The employees at AG love the new place. Saying it's a drastic improvement over their moldy dump in Brooklyn is an understatement. 

 

Now as to whether the artists would rather be in a signature building downtown on the Jacobs lot? I don't know. But regardless of location the company has always been able to attract top talent. It's still a very lucrative and somewhat stable career for creatives. 

On 7/19/2019 at 1:58 PM, Htsguy said:

I would be more concerned if he lived in Dallas

This kind of sh*t infuriates me; the ceo doesn’t own the company, why should where he lives determine the hq location of a public firm for the next several decades when this guy could possibly be elsewhere/retired/whatever in the next few yrs?? Same situation with Eaton, where’s the oversight from the board & shareholders on this?

42 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

This kind of sh*t infuriates me; the ceo doesn’t own the company, why should where he lives determine the hq location of a public firm for the next several decades when this guy could possibly be elsewhere/retired/whatever in the next few yrs?? Same situation with Eaton, where’s the oversight from the board & shareholders on this?

This decision will be made by the Board. There is no way that where the current CEO resides will have any impact on where the Board believes the next HQ site will be. They are likely considering Brecksville because they are making a strong offer - hopefully downtown Cleveland's is stronger.

Now if we could only get Medical Mutu... oh yeah that's right...

On 7/29/2019 at 2:29 PM, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Add in a Sherwin Williams tower and now we are getting somewhere

 

With renewed hope for SWHQ downtown, I present my next Unofficial Google Sketchup Rendering: a showcase of the skyline-impacting potential of SWHQ along with all others in the mix.

Rendering based off of the Amazon HQ renderings as seen in @KJP's most recent blog post: http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/08/hq-r-search-shrounded-in-fog-of-sherwin.html

 

I hope SW goes all-in on a supertall skyscraper. It could become the tallest in the city and potentially break 1000 ft, joining the group of 1000+ ft buildings outside NYC and Chicago.

Based on the Amazon renderings, the second tower, we've assumed could function as R&D, looks to be in the 600 ft range, and I've depicted that below. My realistic guess is a final height in the more conservative 400-500 ft range, yet still standing its ground to add in some nice height to near-Public Square.

 

If our skyline ends up looking like this in 6-7 years or so (maybe sooner), I'm going to be a very happy camper. 

Too bad all the Cleveland merchandise will have to be changed ?

 

From the Southwest:

 

From the Southeast:

 

From the North:

 

From above:

On 8/2/2019 at 12:11 PM, JSC216 said:

 

I’m curious if there is any measurable difference between downtown and suburban companies though, or if it’s just a regional attraction issue. I would guess that unfortunately this talent would chose suburban offices in coastal cities over downtown offices in Midwest cities like Cleveland the majority of the time. 

Again, just another anecdote. My office used to be headquartered in Highland Heights, not far from Progressive. At the time, the furthest away we attracted talent from was Avon.

 

We've since moved downtown, and approximately 50% of our office is now comprised of people who have moved from outside the region (Boston, SF, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, other cities in Ohio, etc., just to work at our firm—many of whom had never been to Cleveland before their interviews.  

 

While we are a small company and don’t have the brands or benefits associated with Progressive, AG, or Eaton, our move downtown was definitely the game changer that enabled acquisition of talent from outside the region. 

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Eaton and co. can still acquire the talent they need—but I also wouldn’t be surprised if they’re not acquiring the “top talent” they’d otherwise be able to acquire with a downtown footprint. 

Those are outstanding graphics, @Geowizical. And there are "three or four" more potential high rises out there, stirring in the minds of developers in Cleveland and Chicago. The downtown Cleveland residential market is evolving and fairly quickly. BTW, that 3-4 more towers doesn't include the new Justice Center, which is still out there somewhere. But the county should have the resources to build it in a few years once the bonds for Gateway and the convention center mature.

 

Ironically, I said in my blog that SHW HQ is a once-in-a-career whale for real estate developers. I completely forgot the new Justice Center which would be twice the size of a combined SHW HQ+R&D.