January 10, 20205 yr so I have the rendering of the SWP development and cleveland browns new uniforms to look forward to... ?
January 10, 20205 yr Author 41 minutes ago, marty15 said: The 480 bridge project is $220 million. This would be 1/100th the size project. Movable bridges are much more expensive than static ones. Simply refurbishing an active, maintained Columbus Road lift bridge cost $32 million 6+ years ago (or $36 million today). The Eagle Avenue lift bridge towers and span may involve a partial replacement because they've been rotting away since the roadway was closed 15 years ago. The Eagle Avenue approach spans from Ontario Street were almost entirely demolished. Let's assume $40 million to $50 million for renovation and partial replacement of the movable bridge portion. A full replacement could potentially exceed $60 million to $70 million. The approach spans, totaling 1,500 feet in length, will have to be built new, including some or all of the part that remains over the RTA tracks. Cost of a 30-foot-wide, 1,500-foot-long concrete deck/steel girder/continuous span and support structures could cost $25 million to $35 million. In total, we're looking at anywhere from $65 million to $105 million. 16 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said: @KJP Congrats and thanks for all of your hard work! Your blog is catching some steam on FB ? And it's getting a fair amount of attention on Twitter, too. The article itself has gotten more than 10,000 views in the first 8 hours. But that's still a long way from the 48,000 views that my "Bye, Euclid Square Mall; hello Amazon?" scoop got in 2017. Edited January 10, 20205 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 20205 yr 34 minutes ago, KJP said: Movable bridges are much more expensive than static ones. Simply refurbishing an active, maintained Columbus Road lift bridge cost $32 million 6+ years ago (or $36 million today). The Eagle Avenue lift bridge towers and span may involve a partial replacement because they've been rotting away since the roadway was closed 15 years ago. The Eagle Avenue approach spans from Ontario Street were almost entirely demolished. Let's assume $40 million to $50 million for renovation and partial replacement of the movable bridge portion. A full replacement could potentially exceed $60 million to $70 million. The approach spans, totaling 1,500 feet in length, will have to be built new, including some or all of the part that remains over the RTA tracks. Cost of a 30-foot-wide, 1,500-foot-long concrete deck/steel girder/continuous span and support structures could cost $25 million to $35 million. In total, we're looking at anywhere from $65 million to $105 million. I wonder if there would be a cheaper way to rebuild it- ditch the 1,500 long approach span and just give it a steep-ish ramp from Stone's Levee. Or if the towers need rebuilt anyway, rebuild the Stone's Levee tower on a foundation at ground level instead of raised. Or if it has to be rebuilt, take it down and rebuild it elsewhere- like maybe just around the bend leading direct from The Thunderbird to Tower City to provide the most direct route from Scranton Peninsula to Downtown. At any rate, there's major development occurring in every direction from this bridge, so it may be worth doing something with soon!
January 10, 20205 yr Author Rebuilding the Eagle ramp would also get more big trucks hauling aggregates to the Flats out of downtown. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 20205 yr 7 minutes ago, X said: I wonder if there would be a cheaper way to rebuild it- ditch the 1,500 long approach span and just give it a steep-ish ramp from Stone's Levee. Or if the towers need rebuilt anyway, rebuild the Stone's Levee tower on a foundation at ground level instead of raised. Or if it has to be rebuilt, take it down and rebuild it elsewhere- like maybe just around the bend leading direct from The Thunderbird to Tower City to provide the most direct route from Scranton Peninsula to Downtown. At any rate, there's major development occurring in every direction from this bridge, so it may be worth doing something with soon! It needs to be explored. Good ideas here. The access points currently are pretty limited.
January 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, KJP said: Rebuilding the Eagle ramp would also get more big trucks hauling aggregates to the Flats out of downtown. Another good point.
January 10, 20205 yr If the bridge could be reconfigured to lower to grade, so it ties into Stones Levee, would greatly reduce cost, and would be more useable/functional. Then you would just need to ramp up from Canal up to Ontario. We’re a growing city again. These are things we need to start doing to get ahead of development to accommodate prospective new stakeholders. We need to get proactive instead of reactive. Edited January 10, 20205 yr by marty15
January 10, 20205 yr For discussion of development/improvements related to the Sherwin Williams headquarters. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
January 10, 20205 yr I can’t see the city not exploring options to help traffic into and out of Scranton. The bridge would be a no-brainer for the city to replace, given that Scranton is poised to have a great deal of development soon. Cleveland’s on a roll!
January 10, 20205 yr Okay folks, this is a wonderful "problem" to have - there were some posts that were discussing adjacent developments and infrastructure, but not the actual HQ development - those have been moved to their own thread. Obviously there will be some gray areas, but when you post - consider which thread might be the most appropriate. ? clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
January 10, 20205 yr Serious question: On a scale from not at all to Progressive, how insular is SW's corporate culture? I could see them building their own garage where the tech center is now, and perhaps connecting it with covered walks or skywalks much like TC is to Gateway. Tunnel pedestrian bridge across the river possibly. Congestion is something most people endure when they feel it necessary but they don't seek it.
January 10, 20205 yr From a SW employee that just came from a very progressive company in Columbus, their culture could not be more conservative. Very white male baby boomer culture (I am a white male almost 30). Building layout is old, culture is stagnant, and they don't even allow you to wear jeans on Friday. Forget working remote occasionally, flex time or anything like that. While the company does A LOT of things right (hence their stock price), there is definitely A TON of room for improvement here.
January 10, 20205 yr 9 hours ago, KJP said: Movable bridges are much more expensive than static ones. Simply refurbishing an active, maintained Columbus Road lift bridge cost $32 million 6+ years ago (or $36 million today). The Eagle Avenue lift bridge towers and span may involve a partial replacement because they've been rotting away since the roadway was closed 15 years ago. The Eagle Avenue approach spans from Ontario Street were almost entirely demolished. Let's assume $40 million to $50 million for renovation and partial replacement of the movable bridge portion. A full replacement could potentially exceed $60 million to $70 million. The approach spans, totaling 1,500 feet in length, will have to be built new, including some or all of the part that remains over the RTA tracks. Cost of a 30-foot-wide, 1,500-foot-long concrete deck/steel girder/continuous span and support structures could cost $25 million to $35 million. In total, we're looking at anywhere from $65 million to $105 million. The Eagle Avenue lift bridge was rehabilitated in 1991 and closed in 2004 after some structural deterioration was found. It's actually in very poor condition at this moment because of superstructure and substructure issues and will need replacement. But for the cost of a new lift bridge, is it worth it for the 7,000 AADT that used it every day? I'm not sure.
January 10, 20205 yr ^^ I have occasional contact with some fairly senior people who are leading initiatives around things that are connected to culture and cohesiveness between the myriad business units. They’re making progress, but slowly. This is a common feature of pretty much every major, manufacturing-legacy employer in NEO. Edited January 10, 20205 yr by roman totale XVII My hovercraft is full of eels
January 10, 20205 yr 35 minutes ago, ytown2ctown said: From a SW employee that just came from a very progressive company in Columbus, their culture could not be more conservative. Very white male baby boomer culture (I am a white male almost 30). Building layout is old, culture is stagnant, and they don't even allow you to wear jeans on Friday. Forget working remote occasionally, flex time or anything like that. While the company does A LOT of things right (hence their stock price), there is definitely A TON of room for improvement here. Do you work at the downtown HQ? My girlfriend went to work there today in jeans (it does cost a couple bucks but it goes to charity) and she gets to work from home once a week. The white male thing varies by department. For instance, my gf's direct report is a 38yr woman and her department is mostly made up of younger females. Edited January 10, 20205 yr by Clefan98
January 10, 20205 yr 9 minutes ago, Clefan98 said: Do you work at the downtown HQ? My girlfriend went to work there today in jeans (it does cost a couple bucks but it goes to charity) and she gets to work from home once a week. The white male thing varies by department. For instance, my gf's direct report is a 38yr woman and her department is mostly made up of younger females. Hopefully this is a very isolated instance I am in currently then. Glad to hear this though!
January 10, 20205 yr Author BTW, take a look at the above image. Take the existing R&D site and multiply its building footprint (let's assume that Breen's building heights are optimal for SHW's research facility needs) by three. It might even be a little bit larger based on the more expansive testing site for SHW's Automotive/PCG Warrensville Hts. facilities. And it's probably going to have a lot of parking. Maybe something like this...... (BTW, if they still want their tennis courts and jogging track, then perhaps the parking could be put into a two-level deck to reduce its footprint. Would also avail some room for future expansion) Edited January 10, 20205 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 20205 yr This is interesting as the very idea was discussed in this thread for a couple pages. Great article @KJP SHW executives, according to sources, said they weren't interested in building an iconic tower to rival the height of neighboring Key Tower, a 57-story, 888-foot-tall, 1.3-million-square-foot skyscraper. As one SHW executive explained when he was asked why the conservative company wasn't considering an ostentatious skyscraper on the Jacobs lot, "Our stock value is up to nearly $600 per share because we're conservative," he said.
January 10, 20205 yr 57 minutes ago, seicer said: The Eagle Avenue lift bridge was rehabilitated in 1991 and closed in 2004 after some structural deterioration was found. It's actually in very poor condition at this moment because of superstructure and substructure issues and will need replacement. But for the cost of a new lift bridge, is it worth it for the 7,000 AADT that used it every day? I'm not sure. You may be right, but I hope the City begins a traffic study ASAP. Things might get a little nuts down there when you have 1,000 cars coming and going at the same time. I suppose there is ingress/egress to the north, south and west but they are all sh*tty two lane roads.
January 10, 20205 yr 20 minutes ago, KJP said: a new CityBlock hotel/office building plus an apartment tower on your right, followed by a Landmark Building renovated into apartments, then a new Justice Center Courthouse tower, plus the old SHW R&D facilities renovated into law offices with a publicly accessible park along the riverfront at least on the Tower City side, followed by the Canal Basin Park Building up the river like this would be great!!! @KJP Is the above just speculation, or are you hearing inside info to suggest this may happen?
January 10, 20205 yr Author 2 minutes ago, NR said: Building up the river like this would be great!!! @KJP Is the above just speculation, or are you hearing inside info to suggest this may happen? All of that along the river is planned -- the Justice Center courthouse tower is going to get built. The only question is where. But a source expected Dan Gilbert to go after it if he didn't get the SHW HQ. Not sure how far along the Riverview phase is of CityBlock, however. But Blockland Cleveland has the cash to build something big there. And the housing that was planned along Columbus Road at Center Street before the Great Recession will probably make a comeback with everything happening across the river. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 20205 yr ^I didn’t hear you imagine a phase 2 casino... is that where blockland thing is going?
January 10, 20205 yr Author 29 minutes ago, audidave said: ^I didn’t hear you imagine a phase 2 casino... is that where blockland thing is going? It's not Blockland anymore. It's CityBlock and only the first phase is in Tower City Center. Big news coming VERY SOON on that too. Later phases would overlook the river. They wanted SHW as part of it. But I think you'll see them go after the courthouse tower once the county's executive committee makes it official that they will pursue a new tower. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, KJP said: It's not Blockland anymore. It's CityBlock and only the first phase is in Tower City Center. Big news coming VERY SOON on that too. Later phases would overlook the river. They wanted SHW as part of it. But I think you'll see them go after the courthouse tower once the county's executive committee makes it official that they will pursue a new tower. Is the news related to potential tenants?!
January 10, 20205 yr Just now, inlovewithCLE said: Is the news related to potential tenants?! Google is moving here because of the smell in Pittsburgh? ? https://www.publicsource.org/when-better-isnt-good-enough-why-i-tell-my-google-co-workers-and-industry-peers-to-avoid-pittsburgh/
January 10, 20205 yr Author 17 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said: Is the news related to potential tenants?! Construction work "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 10, 20205 yr This is such fantastic news!!!! The realization that the sea of parking lot's ringing the Western perimeter of Public Square will be no more is cause for much celebration. Downtown Cleveland was already reawakening 5 year's ago, but this NEW headquarters is simply the icing on our city's very rich cake. I am so excited for the future as this project will almost certainly become a catalyst for more large-scale developments in the CBD. As for a headquarters that will be in the 30-story range ... I am a bit underwhelmed at that prospect, but a win is still a WIN!!! Who knows, once the renderings are released we may all be pleasantly surprised. A lower height tower doesn't mean that it can't be architecturally striking. I very much look forward to this announcement by Sherwin-Williams. ?❤?
January 10, 20205 yr If you are disappointed with the building height just think of the construction. Depending on the the height of the other buildings there could be multiple tower cranes!?
January 10, 20205 yr ...but if someone wants to get under SHW's skin about not building an "iconic" tower on Public Square--just mention how awesome rival PPG's HQ in Pittsburgh is. Edited January 10, 20205 yr by PaxtonMarley
January 10, 20205 yr No doubt PPG's HQ is iconic, but the design always seemed to have a somewhat inappropriate "religious" overtone.... Edited January 11, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder
January 12, 20205 yr On 1/10/2020 at 1:11 PM, PaxtonMarley said: ...but if someone wants to get under SHW's skin about not building an "iconic" tower on Public Square--just mention how awesome rival PPG's HQ in Pittsburgh is. I think the Great American Tower in Cincinnati is the most iconic modern building in Ohio: https://www.queencitysquare.com/gat.php
January 12, 20205 yr On 1/10/2020 at 6:46 PM, marty15 said: I really like the decision to put R&D there. This gives a vital anchor and catalyst to Scranton that’s really needed to jumpstart development down there. Will make a nicer view for all the future apartment dwellers that take over the Landmark building as well. Just hope it won’t be a gated complex with no street interaction. My only concern is the traffic congestion on the Cater bridge (especially during rush hour) and other bottlenecks on the Scranton pennisula. You also have Great Lakes Brewery with its associated trucks that will be there soon. All the more reason to live and work there rather than commute from the suburbs..
January 12, 20205 yr Author 10 minutes ago, shack said: My only concern is the traffic congestion on the Cater bridge (especially during rush hour) and other bottlenecks on the Scranton pennisula. You also have Great Lakes Brewery with its associated trucks that will be there soon. All the more reason to live and work there rather than commute from the suburbs.. Hold the phone on that.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20205 yr 8 minutes ago, KJP said: Hold the phone on that.... I think that bridge lifts to let the large ships thru if i'm not mistaken which makes the situation even worse.
January 12, 20205 yr If they had an exit off 490 eastbound at 14th Street this would negate this issue completely.
January 12, 20205 yr So if Sherwin Wiliams is proposing a roughly 30 story building, we can expect the height to be somewhere between the 9Tower and PNC tower depending on the floor plates?
January 12, 20205 yr Or maybe like the Cleveland one center tower? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Cleveland_Center
January 12, 20205 yr To those skilled in sketchup or other tools---could you show what a 30-some story bldg on the West Roadway of Public Sq would look like from the lake? There was a great graphic someone created one showing the skyline with various planned (and existing) buildings as viewed from the Lake, but I can't find it now.
January 12, 20205 yr ^^All completely speculative at this juncture - we're all in "hurry up and wait" mode for renderings. As I mentioned upthread, we're probably looking at 400' at minimum* and 600' at maximum. Given the conservative culture at Sherwin-Williams, I wouldn't get my hopes up for significant decorative elements that would boost that height. *That said, the 9, PNC and One Cleveland Center were built for corporate offices but they're several decades old. Modern buildings usually need to take into account things like underfloor utilities, which might add a nominal amount of height to each floor. The following are all approximately 28-33 stories. Pittsburgh's Tower at PNC Plaza (564', built 2015) and Milwaukee's Northwestern Mutual Tower (550', built 2017) on the higher end: https://www.gensler.com/projects/the-tower-at-pnc-plaza https://www.pickardchilton.com/work/northwestern-mutual-headquarters Then you have Houston's BHP Billiton Center (477', built 2016), NYC's 7 Bryant Park (441', built 2013) and Oklahoma City's BOK Park Plaza (433', built 2017) https://www.pickardchilton.com/work/bhp-billiton-headquarters https://www.hines.com/properties/7-bryant-park-new-york https://www.pickardchilton.com/work/bok-park-plaza Again, these are all just examples of 30ish story office towers that have been completed in recent years. Hopefully this "hurry up and wait" phase won't last too long. ? With that - if someone wants to create a separate "Speculative Buildings and Developments" thread so this thread stays on topic ... ? clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
January 12, 20205 yr I'm pulling for something between the PNC Tower in Pitt and the 7 Bryant Park tower in NY. I love the colorful mural that's visible at night in the PNC tower, and the horizontal lighting of the Bryant tower. Also, not sure if it's been brought up yet but, SHW has their 2019 financial results conference call for investors on Jan 30th. Is this perhaps when we can expect an announcement about their HQ plans?
January 13, 20205 yr I was in PGH when they were building PNC, I know they went for LEED, I think Gold? I wonder if SW would have any desire to go towards some level of LEED- does Ohio or the county offer tax breaks for this?
January 13, 20205 yr great news and i love the scranton r&d site choice. that is very forward looking indeed and will spur development around there at last. i really hope the signature hq building has at least some razzle dazzle though. I mean while they make a point of being conservative, come on, this is once in an era opportunity. like maybe 30 something floors is just the hq needs instead of total height? and it could still add a hotel, a few law firms or parking or something to bump it up? or if 30+ is what the hq tower is to be, so be it. its still over the moon fantastic news. bye bye jacobs lot. wow. the 30 something floor examples already posted are pretty good, except i cannot help but notice this is the most important site placement of any of them. so with that in mind -- i really like the new pitts png tower example, thats a great model, but i really dislike the bryant pk building. sure nice lighting and while its miles better than the junk it replaced, its actually pretty cheap looking itself. bank of china and i think some investment and law firms or something are in that one. welp, anyway for now i guess now we breath that sigh of relief, yeah i know nobody was seriously worried, but still, and we move on to anxiously await renders ....
January 13, 20205 yr I hope an official announcement really is coming soon because this back and forth is getting ridiculous! ?
January 13, 20205 yr On 1/10/2020 at 7:10 AM, E Rocc said: Serious question: On a scale from not at all to Progressive, how insular is SW's corporate culture? I could see them building their own garage where the tech center is now, and perhaps connecting it with covered walks or skywalks much like TC is to Gateway. Tunnel pedestrian bridge across the river possibly. Congestion is something most people endure when they feel it necessary but they don't seek it. with the expectation that scranton will be a-boomin as spinoff, and to encourage it, this is a perfect storm for a short, public private subway shuttle service from tc to scranton.
January 13, 20205 yr Not sure about a subway... BUT now IS the time for the city to get riverfront zoning in place that requires a publicly accessible boardwalk along all river fronts downtown in the same manner that Chicago requires it. With active uses and windows fronting on the boardwalk.
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