That looks a little bulky. I'd prefer a tower that tapers a bit toward the top.

Edited September 26, 20204 yr by skiwest

I know we're all excited about a game-changing addition to the Cleveland skyline, BUT the real question is - will it have this*?
 

*For those who don't know, when the Avenue District tower was announced, the marketing materials included some hyperbole (typical for real estate and development). However, one of the phrases was that "world class signage" would be at the construction site. When that ended up being vinyl banners plastered on jersey barriers, there was some chops-busting and a little bit of derision on the forum, as you can imagine. ?

2 hours ago, MayDay said:

I know we're all excited about a game-changing addition to the Cleveland skyline, BUT the real question is - will it have this*?
 

*For those who don't know, when the Avenue District tower was announced, the marketing materials included some hyperbole (typical for real estate and development). However, one of the phrases was that "world class signage" would be at the construction site. When that ended up being vinyl banners plastered on jersey barriers, there was some chops-busting and a little bit of derision on the forum, as you can imagine. ?

I never knew that history - thanks! I always that it was a humorous line anyway, but knowing the background makes it that much better. 

It was right up there with any new restaurant/bar/club announcing "a concept that's never been in Cleveland!". As if Clevelanders (prior to COVID) never leave their home or travel to the same places said people snagged their ideas.

 

Anyway, to get back on topic - curious what they mean by "rivaling" Key Tower - are we talking a "hey, you've been the big cheese for a while so gonna stay in my lane of 700-800ish feet but we're cool" or "YO! I'm the new sheriff in town" - time will tell. ?

Longtime lurker here with no verifiable post history, so I understand if anyone doesn't believe what is below...

 

On Saturday, friends and I went out to Little Italy to grab some dinner. Afterwards, we went to TOLI and I struck up a conversation with a man from Chicago who is in Cleveland for his first week at a new job for his firm. We got to talking and he mentioned he is working on a new project for Sherwin Williams. Obviously this got me excited, and I confirmed with him that he will be working on the new Sherwin Williams HQ. He shared that he estimates the tower will be within 600-675' tall and that he HAS seen renderings. I asked multiple times about ground breaking, and he insisted he did not know when ground breaking would occur. Eventually, my wife got frustrated I was away from our table so she came and grabbed me after about a 15 minute conversation.

 

I believe everything he said as he showed me multiple pictures of different projects he has worked on in Chicago. He told me about his most recent project, but I forget exactly what it was called (I believe it started with an "A").

 

Lastly, I am by no means educated on construction, so I apologize if I talked to someone in the know and walked away empty handed, but I figured I would share with you all.

Was the Chicago development Aqua? Edit: I don't see any principal contractors that worked on Aqua that were hired for SHW's HQ. There was a major contributor to Aqua who is working on a project in Cleveland, however. It's near the SHW HQ, just not the SHW HQ.

 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by KJP

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

I know you said the Chicago building started with an A, but was it Vista?

It very well could have been Vista. It was a short, one-word name that he told me. Looking around on Wikipedia for recent completed projects, it could have been NEMA as well.

 

EDIT: Re. your above edit - All pictures he showed me were views from the buildings during construction, not of the buildings themselves, so I can't confirm Aqua (or any external building shot for that matter). This short, one-word building he said was his most recent project, and pictures were from 2019 or 2020 from his phone. I can't imagine what he was showing was Aqua seeing that it was completed in 2009, but I very well could be wrong.

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by misco182

23 minutes ago, KJP said:

There was a major contributor to Aqua who is working on a project in Cleveland, however. It's near the SHW HQ, just not the SHW HQ.

 

 

🧐

53 minutes ago, misco182 said:

It very well could have been Vista. It was a short, one-word name that he told me. Looking around on Wikipedia for recent completed projects, it could have been NEMA as well.

 

EDIT: Re. your above edit - All pictures he showed me were views from the buildings during construction, not of the buildings themselves, so I can't confirm Aqua (or any external building shot for that matter). This short, one-word building he said was his most recent project, and pictures were from 2019 or 2020 from his phone. I can't imagine what he was showing was Aqua seeing that it was completed in 2009, but I very well could be wrong.

 

Gensler designed the hotel in Vista. Gensler is the exterior architect for SHW's HQ. BTW, many of the same principals that were involved in Aqua were also involved in Vista -- including the primary contributor I referenced earlier.

 

41 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

🧐

 

Sorry I can't say who it is yet. I was hoping to get Wolstein to say something, but he's no Bob Stark.

 

EDIT: thanks @misco182. Your information does coincide with much of what I've heard. A 40- to 50-story building could certainly fall within 600-675 feet. To do so would require floorplates of 20,000 to 25,000 SF. That's a very standard floorplate size for office towers and keep to favored floor heights of between 13 to 16 feet.

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by KJP

58 minutes ago, KJP said:

Was the Chicago development Aqua? Edit: I don't see any principal contractors that worked on Aqua that were hired for SHW's HQ. There was a major contributor to Aqua who is working on a project in Cleveland, however. It's near the SHW HQ, just not the SHW HQ.

 

Nice radiator fins.  How do they isolate those from the floors?

 

On 9/26/2020 at 10:09 AM, LlamaLawyer said:

 

 

To further jump on how realistic the rendering is, the Devon Energy Center (with which I am clearly obsessed) has a 746 ft. top floor and 844 ft. architectural peak. 

I truly understand your obsession:

 

I saw the Devon Energy Center building in person just about 2 weeks ago...was not familiar with the building until I saw it and man was it impressive...I immediately had my wife look up the height of Key Tower so that I could put it into proper perspective for it exudes a much more massive and taller vibe than Key Tower.

 

I got a sense of pride when I realized Key Tower was taller, but Devon really gave me a more impressive skyline presence.

12 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Nice radiator fins.  How do they isolate those from the floors?

 

 

Don’t know about the architecture or engineering, but from a user perspective I was lucky to stay at the hotel in that building and it is a pretty interesting mixed use environment. For example, the hotel and the apartment residents share a massive gym and the pool.

8 minutes ago, ragarcia said:

I truly understand your obsession:

 

I saw the Devon Energy Center building in person just about 2 weeks ago...was not familiar with the building until I saw it and man was it impressive...I immediately had my wife look up the height of Key Tower so that I could put it into proper perspective for it exudes a much more massive and taller vibe than Key Tower.

 

I got a sense of pride when I realized Key Tower was taller, but Devon really gave me a more impressive skyline presence.

 

Just an FYI, the Devon Energy Center's roof height is 844 feet while Key's (sans crown & spire) is roughly 760ish feet so that makes sense.

33 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Just an FYI, the Devon Energy Center's roof height is 844 feet while Key's (sans crown & spire) is roughly 760ish feet so that makes sense.

 

That could very well explain it, but I think its huge prominence in their skyline may also have something to do with it. It truly dominates, but in a very good way.

 

If it so happens that SHW is a similar building, even if smaller, it should be a great addition to the CLE.

devon is very nice, but it just reminds me that all the architect's work is all glass boxes. so i hope they use some other materials besides glass. also, if its going to be 6-700' feet or more, then a jaunty crown, big spire or maybe even something creatively paint company oriented would be fitting too. 

39 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

devon is very nice, but it just reminds me that all the architect's work is all glass boxes. so i hope they use some other materials besides glass. also, if its going to be 6-700' feet or more, then a jaunty crown, big spire or maybe even something creatively paint company oriented would be fitting too. 

Its the opposite for me. A lot of other cities have seen all glass towers pop up over the last 40 years... Cleveland has managed only 2 or 3 in that time frame. Give us more glass!

56 minutes ago, ragarcia said:

 

That could very well explain it, but I think its huge prominence in their skyline may also have something to do with it. It truly dominates, but in a very good way.

 

If it so happens that SHW is a similar building, even if smaller, it should be a great addition to the CLE.

Yea, I think the fact that ALL of their other skyscrapers are around one third the height that makes it look so tall.

 

Imagine Cleveland with only the skyscrapers along 9th, minus Erieview.

Yes, but a glass (or perhaps mostly glass) design that isn't so alien against the backdrop of the rest of the city that it doesn't look weirdly placed and ill-conceived like the Devon tower. 

Nice as it is, Devon overpowers to a fault. It now appears as the only structure of note on the OKC skyline.  The Cleveland skyline is one of the most graceful and picturesque of any mid-sized American cities. The elegant cohesiveness of Cleveland's skyline-look, despite our variety of shape and form, is an outstandingly uncommon feature. it helps Cleveland to stand out as distinctive and attractive by comparison to so many others.  

 

- Not a bland tower, just not weird please.  On balance, the whole should be greater than the sum of its parts. 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by ExPatClevGuy
clarification

 

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

devon is very nice, but it just reminds me that all the architect's work is all glass boxes. so i hope they use some other materials besides glass. also, if its going to be 6-700' feet or more, then a jaunty crown, big spire or maybe even something creatively paint company oriented would be fitting too. 

^I would agree, but I don't know if I would like an all-glass tower on Public Square.  I would like something contemporary which blends in well with the Big 3.  I think a tall all-glass office skyscraper would look great between E. 9th and E. 12th, as far as placement of a new all-glass would go.  But on Public Square?  I don't know. 

 

I just realized that we're finally at the point where we can argue amongst ourselves about what would look best on the Jacobs Lot.  All-glass or not, it'll be great to have that lot filled!  

A reminder that if you actually like downtown, buildings like Devon Tower look like trash from most relevant angles: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.468492,-97.5180051,3a,75y,170.54h,99.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0XtvgXhnasnTh9warY5O-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

 

two problems with that.

 

one is of course today's contemporary is tomorrows out of style.

 

also, the architect is already conservative, so all glass is likely to be as nice, but as bland as most of their main work, devon tower aside.

 

i do think modern all glass is fine, but for elsewhere, like along e9st or something.

 

save the new public square tall for the classy/money glass&mixed facade materials.

 

i mean if it isnt going to be thee tallest in town, then let it be the best in quality inside and out.

 

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Gensler designed the hotel in Vista. Gensler is the exterior architect for SHW's HQ. BTW, many of the same principals that were involved in Aqua were also involved in Vista -- including the primary contributor I referenced earlier.

 

 

Sorry I can't say who it is yet. I was hoping to get Wolstein to say something, but he's no Bob Stark.

 

EDIT: thanks @misco182. Your information does coincide with much of what I've heard. A 40- to 50-story building could certainly fall within 600-675 feet. To do so would require floorplates of 20,000 to 25,000 SF. That's a very standard floorplate size for office towers and keep to favored floor heights of between 13 to 16 feet.

Glad I could be of assistance. He mentioned he and his wife are renting an apartment in Little Italy, so if anyone goes to that way, keep an eye out!

2 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Just an FYI, the Devon Energy Center's roof height is 844 feet while Key's (sans crown & spire) is roughly 760ish feet so that makes sense.

 

 

i dk, but emporis sez key roof height is 888' and architectual height is 947'.

1 minute ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

i dk, but emporis sez key roof height is 888' and architectual height is 947'.

 

Yeah it's definitely 888' 

If SHW can just have the building taller than 635 they’d have bragging rights over PPG 😉 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by cle_guy90

33 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

i dk, but emporis sez key roof height is 888' and architectual height is 947'.

 

I said (sans crown & spire).  The architectural crown is included in the "roof" height of 888 feet.  The roof of the tower before the crown is roughly 760ish feet height (meaning, looking up / before the a tapering of the crown), giving the illusion that Devon may appear taller from the ground-level since the "flat part" is taller than Key.  Otherwise, yes, Key is without question a taller building with the crown.

where did you read the key crown is included in the roof height of key? 

 

usually roof height means the roof of the highest occupied floor, which is under the key logos. the lit crown holds mechanicals above the roof height. the crown and spire together look to be about 69' to me, so that gets us to 947'. 

 

devon highest floor is 746' and the top is at 844'.

 

I'll defer to @MayDay but basically this --> https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=90970069

it appears ctbuh/emporis is saying the architectural height includes the crown, but not spire/antenna. with the spire they call it the tip.

 

the highest floor/roof height seems to be more debatable, but even #10 below implies both the crown (ie., shell enclosure), but also occupancy, not just mechanicals (ie., penthouses and pavilions).

 

i dk, mayday prob will know.

 

 

 

highlights of how ctbuh/emporis calls heights:

 

 

1. Architectural Top

This is the most common way to measure a building. The architectural top of a building includes any building structure or ornaments, like spires or parapets, but it does not include what the CTBUHconsiders “functional-technical equipment.” Functional-technical equipment is anything that may be subject to change, such as a flagpole, antennae, or signage. The architectural top method is used to determine the world’s tallest buildings, although due to the subjectivity of what is "architectural" and what is merely "functional-technical equipment," it can sometimes lead to some controversy.

 

2. Highest Occupiable Floor

To count as the highest occupiable floor, it must be a conditioned space designed for people to legally inhabit it on a regular basis. Mechanical spaces don’t count. This measurement is taken to the floor level.

 

10. Roof

The roof height is the highest exterior portion of the buildings shell enclosure. This does not include spires or parapets like the architectural top does, but for buildings with a "main roof," it does include rooftop penthouses or pavilions, unlike the main roof measurement.

 

 

There are many ways to define a building's height. But ultimately the method you pick depends on what information you are looking for. The goal should lead you to the right building measurement method.

 

more:

https://www.archdaily.com/881090/the-10-different-ways-to-measure-a-skyscrapers-height

I made a quick model of the Devon Energy Center last night and threw it into google earth.  Put a mini one beside it as well. I’ll post some screenshots when I get off work in a couple hours if people would like. 

5 minutes ago, Pleco said:

I made a quick model of the Devon Energy Center last night and threw it into google earth.  Put a mini one beside it as well. I’ll post some screenshots when I get off work in a couple hours if people would like. 

Yes please!

Should I post these snaps in the Visualizations thread or here as they relate to the last page or so of conversation?

On 9/15/2020 at 10:44 AM, Larry1962 said:

THANKS KJP for another great article!

 

And here's a nice example of a 60 story building SHW lead architect designed in Chicago:

 

 

 

I agree that something in this flavor might be great for Public Square.  If Pickard Chilton is so inspired as to have the left side of such a tower step down towards Public Square in the style of 30 Rockefeller Center, we would have everything I desire.  Differentiation & style, but connection the more formal and vertical enterprise of Cleveland's romantic 20th-Century-masterpiece architectural landscape, (minus the children's building-block look of the Justice Center.)

Architectural heritage-wise it works from a storytelling standpoint too. 
30 Rock is stylistically the same as SW's current home in the Landmark Office Towers, albeit on Steroids.

If the State of Ohio hadn't sent JD Rockefeller to NY for tax reasons, Rockefeller Center might have been built here in the first place.

Edited October 21, 20204 yr by ExPatClevGuy
fixing my awful cadence & grammar

I put some snaps of Devon Energy Center on Public Square in the Random Visualizations and Massings thread in relation to today's conversation.

23 hours ago, mrnyc said:

it appears ctbuh/emporis is saying the architectural height includes the crown, but not spire/antenna. with the spire they call it the tip.

 

the highest floor/roof height seems to be more debatable, but even #10 below implies both the crown (ie., shell enclosure), but also occupancy, not just mechanicals (ie., penthouses and pavilions).

 

i dk, mayday prob will know.

 

I've been very fortunate to be busy with work lately, and fully admit I need to find some time to update clevelandskyscrapers.com - but a little history in the world of skyscraper geek websites:

 

Back in 1997, I started my site on GeoCities (remember them?) and in 2000 I moved everything to the official URL. Back then, the skyscraper geek community was pretty small so it didn't take long for the folks at Emporis (then known as skyscrapers.com) to find my site. They really liked the level of detail I provided as well as multiple photos that really tried to showcase the best of each building.

 

At some point - their contact person suggested a collaboration, sounded like a great idea. Until they put it out there that in their mind that meant me handing over all my photos and info that I had researched so they could be the "WAL*MART" of skyscraper geek sites. If you've ever met me, you can probably imagine my response (if I recall, it was something along the lines of taking their collaboration and aggressively inserting into the digestive tract in the opposite fashion that the digestive tract was intended to work 😉). That and what was essentially a cease and desist to remove any material I had already contributed. If you wonder why their Cleveland section has inconsistencies, that's a big part of it. 

Now sort of getting back on topic - Key Tower is 948 feet to the top of the spire, and 888 feet to the top of the pyramidal crown. Honestly, not sure of the height to the base of the crown but there are six mechanical floors tucked inside of it (which seeing that was a whole other story). To that point, I'm just going to leave these here from when I saw the crown and spire up close - REAL close 😁

 

So I'm gonna continue just a bit off topic and reply to @MayDay that those numbers (888' roof which includes the crown and then add a 60' spire) are exactly the dimensions I remember when interning at the Cleveland Planning Commission back in 1988; and yes I was one of those skyscraper geeks. Not sure how it lost a foot but oh well. 

Back to the SWHQ it now seems we have insight that the tower will rise between 600' & 675'. Not exactly "rivaling Key Tower" as reported IMO, but "rivaling" is subjective. I'm still hoping for an 800 footer and no more but 600' .... come on now.

Edited October 21, 20204 yr by Clvlndr in LV

 

 

46 minutes ago, Clvlndr in LV said:

 

46 minutes ago, Clvlndr in LV said:

 

Back to the SWHQ it now seems we have insight that the tower will rise between 600' & 675'. Not exactly "rivaling Key Tower" as reported IMO, but "rivaling" is subjective. I'm still hoping for an 800 footer and no more but 600' .... common now.

 

I openly share my disappointment in hearing from another "source" that the Sherwin-Williams new HQ may actually be considerably less tall than what @KJP has heard. 600 to 675 feet isn't exactly rivaling in height to the lofty Key Tower.

 

I share in the hope that what the new SHW HQ may lose in overall height, it will make up in architectural style and texture. Like others here, I would hope for more glass in the tower and some type of unique spire or a crown. Another tall building with just a flat roof would be so disappointing for such a prominent location in the epicenter of the city.

 

I am fervently hopeful that @KJP has more of the inside track on just what the actual floor count and height will turn out to be.

 

Waiting with baited breath ... 🤗

Edited October 21, 20204 yr by John D. Baumgardner

I've heard "45-55 stories" and also "rivaling Key Tower." Those may not be mutually exclusive but only one can refer to something in the 600-something-foot range. I wouldn't consider a 600-footer as rivaling Key. Guess we'll all just have to wait and see what gets announced like everybody else.

10 minutes ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

I share in the hope that what the new SHW HQ may lose in overall height, it will make up in architectural style and texture. Like others here, I would hope for more glass in the tower and some type of unique spire or a crown. Another tall building with just a flat roof would be so disappointing for such a prominent location in the epicenter of the city.

 

I personally would love to see something like this:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/478296422896416001/?nic_v2=1a6TFRNva

Edited October 21, 20204 yr by surfohio

11 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

I personally would love to see something like this:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/478296422896416001/?nic_v2=1a6TFRNva

This is a cool looking tower, but perhaps just a tad bit overdone and too busy. I do like the large lettering near the top, however.

Edited October 21, 20204 yr by John D. Baumgardner

In an alternate universe John Boyd is doing a victory lap on SHW relocation to Atlanta.  I’m grateful not only to keep this bluechip, legacy company In Cleveland proper, but to witness the demise of the Jacobs and Weston lots, with a brand new tower whether that be 450 feet or 1,000+.

5 hours ago, MayDay said:

 

Now sort of getting back on topic - Key Tower is 948 feet to the top of the spire, and 888 feet to the top of the pyramidal crown. Honestly, not sure of the height to the base of the crown but there are six mechanical floors tucked inside of it (which seeing that was a whole other story). To that point, I'm just going to leave these here from when I saw the crown and spire up close - REAL close 😁

 

Thanks for that explicit clarification @MayDay - I can admit that I thought that roofline was at 880 and that the pyramid took it to 948. Sort of forgot about the spire! (I remember when there was a big discussion about whether New York’s One World Trade Center  should rank as America’s tallest over the then reigning Sears Tower which has the higher roof line.  One World Trades’ very substantial spire  provides  an extra 400 feet of verticality. Yea, spires are important.  And, at the risk of teetering off- topic for a brief second more, I just wanna give some love to Key Tower - hard to possibly say it’s a little underrated - when it’s so dominant, but It has world-class elegance and is just perfect for the Cleveland skyline. Getting back to  the future SW, I know we’re a bit “all over the place” with speculation and exemplars that we think might look great - but like Christmas, a big part of the fun is anticipating  what’s in the big shiny package before it gets opened - so I’m glad we’re being given some allowance for the excitement.  How often does a tower of this importance pop up in Ohio?  Regarding height - Honestly, we’ve heard - from our best sources - everything from a somewhat modest 30 stories to something that “rivals Key Tower”. I think it’s pretty clear that SW has us all guessing   .. so far. What is also clear is that this will be the biggest “reveal” in Cleveland architecture history. And that this HQ’s  impact on the skyline will be in the league of Key, TT and 200 Public Square.  I must admit, I am hoping it surpasses the Great American Tower to give  Cleveland the big 3 in the state once again. 
 

Edited October 21, 20204 yr by CleveFan

On 10/19/2020 at 11:03 AM, Foraker said:

Nice radiator fins.  How do they isolate those from the floors?

 

 

Redirected from the Random Visualizations thread.....

 

 xx

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I think we know even less about what the shorter building on the Superblock will look like, but wow does it make a big difference from that view down Euclid. It's almost more impactful than the actual tower from that angle. If we get a 620' tower (instead of a 800' tower) that results in more development on the Superblock now is that really a loss?

 

Not necessarily. SHW could keep 1 million square feet on the Jacobs lot and have it be a 560-foot tower or an 800-foot tower depending on average floorplate sizes and average floor heights. Consider.....

 

40 stories with 25,000-SF average floorplates and floor heights of:

14 feet -- 560 feet tall

15 feet -- 600 feet tall

16 feet -- 640 feet tall

 

45 stories with 22,222-SF average floorplates and floor heights of:

14 feet -- 630 feet tall

15 feet -- 675 feet tall

16 feet -- 720 feet tall

 

50 stories with 20,000-SF average floorplates and floor heights of:

14 feet -- 700 feet tall

15 feet -- 750 feet tall

16 feet -- 800 feet tall

Larger floorplates = bulkier but shorter building and smaller floorplate = taller but more slender building. So what do we prefer? Hmmm...

33 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Larger floorplates = bulkier but shorter building and smaller floorplate = taller but more slender building. So what do we prefer? Hmmm...

To quote the Duchess of Windsor, “You can never be too thin” 

33 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Larger floorplates = bulkier but shorter building and smaller floorplate = taller but more slender building. So what do we prefer? Hmmm...

200 Public Square and Key Tower are very similar in square footage (50k difference).  I'd prefer taller personally.

it's going to be designed to maximize the efficiency of the floorplates - not too big (Ellipse) and not too small (Terminal Tower).

 

Not to maximize the effect on the skyline

Well that's it people. Stop with the idle dreaming and speculation. SHW is going to do what is best for SHW and it doesn't matter what we think. Who knew? Apparently only bjk. 

12 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Well that's it people. Stop with the idle dreaming and speculation. SHW is going to do what is best for SHW and it doesn't matter what we think. Who knew? Apparently only bjk. 

Obviously that is the case but isn't discussion, visions and opinions, even speculation, the purpose of this forum, or for that matter any similar type of forum.