1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Sell a $19 million city-owned asset to an ostensibly non-profit developer for $1...what a joke.  

 

Also, the plan indicates almost the entire ground-level floor will become office space, which is odd.  So my suspicion is that this conversion to office is a "temporary" 10-20 year plan for the site.  

 

We'll also likely see the whole façade thrown in the trash and replaced with a glass curtain.  The north side of the building abuts another building, so no floors will have northward windows.  

This is a bit confusing, 3CDC purchased Fountain Place in January for 7.5 Million Dollars so what is this sale? 
 

Also these $1 sales happen all the time particularly with parking lots when big developments are happening 

 

One more thing why do you find it odd that almost the entire first floor is going to be office space? The plan is to pretty much turn this entire building into office space including the upper floors with some ground floor retail. There’s nothing odd about that. And personally 10-20 years isn’t what I would describe as temporary lol thats about the life span before any building usually needs to do a big facelift. *See Fountain Place today which is about 20 years old and almost vacant.

If there’s no tower this time around either It’s now crossed my mind if this turns out to be another Kroger related jobs announcement like what’s been speculated, Fountain Place would make a lot of sense for a future Kroger Headquarters Tower up top. Combined with its 84.51 building next door its makes all too much sense. 

What exactly costs 59 million though? I know the building needs a bit of polishing, and needs interior demolition to make way for the new office space/ground floor retail..but 59 million dollars? That seems a bit much, no?

 

I'm happy the CBD will have more jobs. I believe it was rumored to be upwards of 1,000 new jobs if I'm not mistaken...That said it's a bit sad that this corner will seemingly become a dead spot after 5-6pm and more so on the weekends. 

 

Ideally including 1,000 plus jobs on the upper levels of fountain place and a residential tower above would have done wonders for this corner in terms of reactivating it day and night. 

Edited December 5, 20195 yr by troeros

3 minutes ago, troeros said:

What exactly costs 59 million though? I know the building needs a bit of polishing, and needs interior demolition to make way for the new office space/ground floor retail..but 59 million dollars? That seems a bit much, no?

I agree, the details we have heard so far makes me think it should be in the 40 million range. I’m assuming the renovation will look much more flashy than we are expecting?? 

34 minutes ago, 646empire said:

I agree, the details we have heard so far makes me think it should be in the 40 million range. I’m assuming the renovation will look much more flashy than we are expecting?? 

 

I'm guessing the exterior facade will be replaced? That would maybe explain the cost I guess...

I was a bit curious too, I know next to nothing about construction costs but it seems like a very expensive rehab.

 

They are tearing down the Skywalk to the Carew Tower as well, which probably has a high cost...

 

MAYBE, they are going to do a tower portion on top but it didn't sound like it. It said currently 250k square foot, remake 25k square foot into retail and 225k square foot into office space. 225k square feet of office space is pretty close to the amount in the 84.51 building.

 

I still think it will be a big upgrade even if it won't be a tower on top.

 

***Edit: I was looking at another project, the Encore, $52 Million for garage and tower: https://www.3cdc.org/project/8th-sycamore/

 

 

Edited December 5, 20195 yr by IAGuy39

$59M for 250K SF is $236/SF which doesn't sound out of line for a gut rehab, especially if there's major facade work, mechanicals, class-a finishes, etc. 

Thanks, makes sense!

 

I still think it will be a really big upgrade, even though we aren't getting a tower.

Maybe they'll cover it with floor matts to match Dunhumby.  

 

 

$236 psf is awfully expensive for a renovation.  You already have the garage and exterior shell, even if your are going to replace the curtain wall, that is very high.  Maybe that number includes the vacancy losses until they can find tenants. LOL  And I'm not sure this means 1,000 new jobs for downtown.  It likely means 1,000 jobs moving from existing Class B & C buildings downtown.

7 minutes ago, thesenator said:

$236 psf is awfully expensive for a renovation.  You already have the garage and exterior shell, even if your are going to replace the curtain wall, that is very high.  Maybe that number includes the vacancy losses until they can find tenants. LOL  And I'm not sure this means 1,000 new jobs for downtown.  It likely means 1,000 jobs moving from existing Class B & C buildings downtown.

Your last point isn’t true. Mr. Leeper at 3CDC said earlier in the year on a podcast that these jobs will be new and high paying. So at the very least these jobs are not currently located downtown and I get a feeling will be totally new tech jobs from Kroger or someone.

Edited December 5, 20195 yr by 646empire

1 hour ago, thesenator said:

$236 psf is awfully expensive for a renovation.  You already have the garage and exterior shell, even if your are going to replace the curtain wall, that is very high.  Maybe that number includes the vacancy losses until they can find tenants. LOL  And I'm not sure this means 1,000 new jobs for downtown.  It likely means 1,000 jobs moving from existing Class B & C buildings downtown.

 

From what I understand alot of the jobs will be Kroger corporate jobs that are currently based in the suburbs (around blue Ash) that will be relocating downtown. 

 

The speculation about whether this could eventually be Kroger new HQ is an interesting thought. The Kroger on Central is starting to max out in regards to available space. 

 

I almost do wonder as well if the long term plan would be to eventually build a tower above the base to house Kroger new HQ.

3cdc is now stating they aren't 100% sure if they are going to demolish the skywalk. 

 

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/planning-commission-vote-would-lay-groundwork-to-demolish-skywalk-on-fifth-street-city-says

 

They are still stating it will cost 59 million dollars..which makes it that more absurd if there are no costs associated with skywalk demo.

 

I mean am I crazy but couldnt 59 million dollars build a  short squat tower up top... especially if the skywalk isn't being demo'd?

Edited December 6, 20195 yr by troeros

4th & Race is around $100 million and most of that cost is the parking garage.  $59 million for Fountain Place has to include something more than an extensive interior renovation.  The numbers aren't making sense.  

https://www.wcpo.com/news/transportation-development/move-up-cincinnati/3cdc-hopes-redeveloped-fountain-place-will-attract-major-tenant-1-500-workers

 

Nothing that new to add except 3cdc is now stating upwards of 1,500 jobs at Fountain Place and total Renovation cost will be upwards of 60 million dollars.

 

5-6 new, smaller square footage, ground floor retail tenants that will generate high foot traffic. 

 

Interior demolition started last week, with no completion date set as of yet. 

2 hours ago, nicker66 said:

4th & Race is around $100 million and most of that cost is the parking garage.  $59 million for Fountain Place has to include something more than an extensive interior renovation.  The numbers aren't making sense.  

 

Yeah, does it really cost 60 million dollars to convert a 3 store building into Class A office space? 

^It sounds doubtful they will add a tower or anything on top.

 

All that said, it is still going to be a huge upgrade and a great project for there. I think 3CDC will get it right in terms of retailers, etc. and improving on it big time.

From the WCPO article-

 

"They bought the building for $7.5 million earlier this year, and 3CDC expects to purchase the land from the city of Cincinnati for $1.

The bargain price allows the city to avoid paying property taxes on the land, as 3CDC moves forward with redevelopment of the 225,000-square-foot building."

 

 

This sounds like BS?  Does a city pay property tax on a land sale? Or do they mean 3CDC will have a lower property tax liability going forward since the land sale will be recorded as $1??  All this welfare.....  I pay full freight on my property. Why can't they?

I don't like corporate welfare any more than the next guy, but 3CDC is still technically a non-profit and in theory are investing all of their non-overhead and salaried money back into the urban core. If this ends up being just a Kroger office, I will agree with you because Fortune 500 companies can pay their taxes, but I get why 3CDC gets special treatment. 

Why not put something that will be a destination type place. Now that there is a grocery store downtown, the thing they are missing is a movie theatre. It can be an Esquire type theatre even, but that would be a nice addition to the urban core with the new residents and add to street life.

1 minute ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Why not put something that will be a destination type place. Now that there is a grocery store downtown, the thing they are missing is a movie theatre. It can be an Esquire type theatre even, but that would be a nice addition to the urban core with the new residents and add to street life.

 

Yeah I'm not sure what 3cdc was thinking with this one. 

 

Assuming their is no tower in the cards, then 3cdc is essentially spending 60 million dollars for renovating office space. 

 

While adding 1,500 jobs (hopefully new jobs, or relocating suburban jobs) will be a huge win for the CBD, it feels like a missed opportunity to not have a Kenwood Towne center type of developement where you have a mixed use entertainment center filled with a boutique envision cinemas, a comedy club, maybe a sprinkle in a few cafes/resturaunts/dinner show type of establishments. Things that are new to the urban core in terms of entertainment, while adding new foot traffic. 

 

THEN add a office tower on top with new jobs. 

 

Instead we are getting a sprinkle of retail and mainly office jobs and this corner will still be primarily dead during the weekdays when the workers go home, and maybe see a little bit of activity during the weekend with the new retail tenants...all while spending 60 million dollars, which in theory, could have afforded 3cdc to build a nucely sized modest tower above. 

 

I guess we don't know all of the details yet or long term plans. But so far none of it makes sense. Especially when 3cdc has a great, proven track record of bringing new life and vibrancy to quiet street corners. 

This is a lot of speculation about a project we know very little about...

I don't see why all the handwringing, I mean I understand, people want a new tower, but if there isn't, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's still going to be a big upgrade.

I believe Hudson Managment was going to put 70 million to renovated a 12 story Textile building into apartments 

 

60 million into a 3 story building smh

17 minutes ago, cin614 said:

I believe Hudson Managment was going to put 70 million to renovated a 12 story Textile building into apartments 

 

60 million into a 3 story building smh

Hudson management was a hot mess developer from Florida that didn't know what they were doing and left alot of companies and firms in Cincinnati with unpaid bills...

8 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

I don't see why all the handwringing, I mean I understand, people want a new tower, but if there isn't, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's still going to be a big upgrade.

 

I mean I think it's more of the fact 60 million dollars is going to be spent in renovations for a 3 story building.

 

Imo, 3cdc should have just focused on leasing out the building to new retail and use that 60 million for an office tower infill in the much abundant surface lots of the urban core...

On 12/6/2019 at 11:51 PM, troeros said:

 

I mean I think it's more of the fact 60 million dollars is going to be spent in renovations for a 3 story building.

 

Imo, 3cdc should have just focused on leasing out the building to new retail and use that 60 million for an office tower infill in the much abundant surface lots of the urban core...

 

I am having a bit of trouble understanding your logic.

 

So they would fill what was already there at Fountain Place and not working... with a repeat of what was already there and not working?

 

I doubt Fountain Place failed because of who was leasing the retail or what the retail was. I would guess it failed because really big retail in the middle of downtown Cincinnati is not feasible even when it is really good anchors like a very nice Macy's and Tiffany's!!

 

So, I feel like your logic here is a bit of false choice... They can't use this building to fill fully with retail, it probably isn't very conducive to apartments, BUT they can get some quality retail which will work along with 1500 workers right on Fountain Square in a beautiful, revamped building.

 

The problem with the abundant surface lots.... They don't own those surface lots and neither does the city, that would make the costs even that much higher, the process slower, etc. They have decided this is the best move at this moment in time.

 

Don't worry, they will get more surface lots filled soon, there is a big project happening on 4th and Race right now and the big projects coming up by the Convention Center. I would guess too that 3CDC is going to push hard to get another big project like the Kroger building done on some of those lots by that new tower. That seems like a big focus for them.

City poised to sell land underneath Fountain Place

 

 

Cincinnati City Council is expected to sell the land underneath Fountain Place to the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. on Wednesday for $1 and abate property taxes on the improvements to the nearly empty building for 30 years.

 

3CDC is planning a $59 million office conversion project for the building that will create 205,000 square feet of office space and renovate 20,000 of commercial space. It also will include a 165-space underground parking garage. 3CDC plans to try to attract a single user that will bring 1,000 jobs to the site, said Phil Denning, the city’s economic development director.

 

One citizen objected to the sale, urging council to vote “no” on it and calling it a multimillion-dollar giveaway. The Hamilton County auditor has estimated the land is worth $13.8 million.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/12/16/city-poised-to-sell-land-underneath-fountain-place.html

^Not a fan of how they are pretending in the meeting they need to do this or else they won't find a tenant, when it seems that Kroger IT is already a done deal.  At lease be more transparent and state that a lease has been made contingent on the $1 sale.  

^ Yep. Expect the next two weeks to be a "silly season" at City Hall as the city tries to ram through every land sale, tax abatement, and TIF district creation they possibly can, in advance of the CPS deal expiring at the end of the year.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

^ Yep. Expect the next two weeks to be a "silly season" at City Hall

 

Those country club dues are really paying off.  

On 12/6/2019 at 11:51 PM, troeros said:

 

I mean I think it's more of the fact 60 million dollars is going to be spent in renovations for a 3 story building.

 

Imo, 3cdc should have just focused on leasing out the building to new retail and use that 60 million for an office tower infill in the much abundant surface lots of the urban core...

Keep in mind that the $54MM figure likely includes the $7.5MM purchase price along with the carrying costs of a gigantic vacant building that can’t just be boarded up- that’s likely millions. The building isn’t tall but it’s large and in need of attention. Updating elevators, escalators, HVAC and a roof for a building of that size ain’t cheap. Taxes, insurance, design fees, broker fees, Tenant improvement dollars, yadda yadda.. Haven’t see a detailed budget of course but the hard costs are Probably not that crazy once you trim it down with all these huge soft costs for a building of this magnitude. 

21 minutes ago, ZoeBarnes said:

it’s large

 

It's a lot bigger than it seems.  

 

The sleeper gigantic downtown building is the Federal Building.  

Jan 5, 2020:

 

 

 

14 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Jan 5, 2020:

 

 

 

Does anyone know if 3cdc have anything in their plans about the jumbo tron?

Rock Bottom Brewery is done after 15+ years:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/downtowns-rock-bottom-brewery-closes-amid-bankruptcy-pandemic

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Rock Bottom Brewery is done after 15+ years:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/downtowns-rock-bottom-brewery-closes-amid-bankruptcy-pandemic

The corporate umbrella they exist under files bankruptcy. All there restaurant brands are closing up shop. 

Would love for a big local brewery to hop on that location. Tafts Brewporium concept is a lot of fun. Their space in Columbus is really nice (I actually haven't been to the location in Cincinnati yet). Would be good for 50 West to have a downtown location.

1 hour ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

Would love for a big local brewery to hop on that location. Tafts Brewporium concept is a lot of fun. Their space in Columbus is really nice (I actually haven't been to the location in Cincinnati yet). Would be good for 50 West to have a downtown location.

 

I was just saying the other day that this spot would be perfect for 50 West to expand downtown. They have such an empire set up out there but they'd be hugely popular downtown as well. And they'd only be about 1,000 feet from US 50 haha.

It's hard to predict what will ultimately happen with this space, given the fact that dine-in restaurants are going to be struggling over the next 12-18 months. I wouldn't be surprised if the space gets split up; if I recall correctly it was pretty large.

 

If we didn't already have the Sam Adams tap room in OTR, I would say that Fountain Square would be the perfect location for it. Or maybe Boi Na Braze will take over the space and reopen like they claimed they would.

20 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Rock Bottom Brewery is done after 15+ years:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/downtowns-rock-bottom-brewery-closes-amid-bankruptcy-pandemic

 

I thought it opened in 1996-ish. I had a friend that was on the opening staff.....I'm getting old, but I'm pretty sure it was still the 1990's when it opened initially. Or was there a break, and it reopened 15 years ago??

32 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

 

I thought it opened in 1996-ish. I had a friend that was on the opening staff.....I'm getting old, but I'm pretty sure it was still the 1990's when it opened initially. Or was there a break, and it reopened 15 years ago??

 

Honestly I can't remember what was there beforehand or when it opened.  Maybe 2002?  I think there was a brief overlap where both Rock Bottom and The Barrelhouse were brewing beer circa 2002-04.  Then the Barrelhouse moved to the West End when the Art Academy bought their building.   

 

I also can't remember what was where Chipotle is now.  

 

I do clearly recall that the Cadillac Ranch, etc., was a big Hallmark card store before it became a bar around 2006.  

 

It was sometime between late 1996 and late 1998, I think 1997 though as that is when I lived in Denver where the original is and remember being glad they expanded to Cincy.

I wonder if they arrived at the name because of the popularity of Hard Rock Cafes in the 1990s. 

5 hours ago, TheCOV said:

 

I thought it opened in 1996-ish. I had a friend that was on the opening staff.....I'm getting old, but I'm pretty sure it was still the 1990's when it opened initially. Or was there a break, and it reopened 15 years ago??

It has been around since the 90s. I remember going there in way back then. It was the only thing on the square at that time and one of the only places downtown at the time where you could get bar/food type meal and not have to spend an arm and a leg. 

New permanent stage coming along. (Photo by @5chw4r7z)

 

So so so much better than the temporary stage on the southwest end.

1 hour ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

So so so much better than the temporary stage on the southwest end.

Current stage has been a scourge on the square for far too many years. 

Rendering for 2020 renovation:

 

On 10/16/2019 at 2:29 PM, troeros said:

Final rendering of redesigned Fountain Square. Construction slated to begin next spring. 

 

Renderings from the 2006 renovation, including the "marketplace" idea that I don't think really ever materialized:

 

On 2/28/2006 at 11:31 PM, moonloop said:

Here, I'll give it shot.

 

It looks like this building will have mood lighting. This must be the lighting after a Reds win.

 

 

(That's a lot of trees!)

 

On 2/28/2006 at 11:46 PM, moonloop said:

I might as well post the rest.

 

I just realized, I don't know what side of the square this building is. It doesn't look like the same place as where Rock Bottom or the marketplace will be.

<i>This must be the same building, just facing sixth street. It took me awhile.</i>

 

Rock Bottom and the marketplace will be here.

 

Inside the marketplace?!!?

 

I'm liking what I'm seeing.

 

2 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

So so so much better than the temporary stage on the southwest end.

 

The temporary stage never seemed to come down.  

 

The renovated square has been a wildly cluttered place since Day 1.  I remain unconvinced that the reorientation of the square was a net positive.  The old permanent stage was ugly but it had some character since it also served as a staircase to the skywalk.  There was a funny landing on it where people watched bands from above and behind and sometimes hung banners off the railing.  

 

I also suspect that the primary reason the Fountain Square skywalk was torn down was because it became the city's premier smoke break venue.  At any given time during the workweek there were anywhere from a handful to dozens of people leaning on the railing, cig in hand.  Before we were the City That Sings, we were the City That Smokes.