We are stuck in the 1960s.

 

BTW, why would there be ramps onto a boulevard??

Nimby nimby nimby!

JDD941, thanks for the plug on commuter rail. ODOT officials better start talking alternatives to the car and better land use, or else Strickland's people are going to transfer them to trash pickup duty along the highways. Or worse -- the unemployment line. Two of ODOT's non-deputy director managers in Columbus were already canned when they told Strickland's honchos that they didn't agree with the guv's new fix-it-first and alternative transportation policies.

 

Message: Get in line behind the governor or get in the unemployment line.

I actually JUST went to the Strickland website and posted MY concerns about alternative transportation (and of course pimped out Urbanohio)...it will be interesting to see if I get any sort of response.

Man, can you imagine if rail even ENTERED the discussion? How can you be a department of transportation and only talk about cars/trucks?

JDD,

 

do you have a link for the website?

http://governor.ohio.gov/  then go to constituent affairs...

This entire plan, is going to either do a lot of good or a lot of bad. I change my mind almost daily on whether I support it or not. One way for me to support this would be if the entire BLVD is lined with highrises similar to that of the QEW headed into Toronto. As you enter the city, their shoreway is lined on both sides with new residential towers that continue to replace a previously stale part of the city. The premise is perfect, but is the land that will be opened up to development going to be used sparingly and effectively or is it just going to be 20-30 mansions with big backyards overlooking the Lake/park below? I'd rather see this become a counterpart to the Gold Coast. It's a once-in-a-lifetime chance to develop some lakefront (or almost lakefront) land PROPERLY! Regardless of the cutesy little color coded maps that show proposed density levels along this new BLVD, I would really like to see it developed as densely as possible in entirety.

it wouldn't be lined with high rises for a good long time. I am surprised at the backlash.  This project will do wonders for Ohio City and Detroit Shoreway.  I understand why some Clifton and Lakewood folk would be against it.  But why let some NIMBYs get in the way of a project that will help bring investment into the city and improve neighborhoods??  It can be frustrating when the minority who are inconvenienced in a minor way try to stop a project that is a huge plus for the majority.

^ Agreed. All though some will not be pleased, over all it is good for the city.

i live in lakewood and use the west shoreway to get to work every day. i understand that this will slow down my commute to work every day. i also realize how much valuable land this opens up for development and how much this will help the redevelopment of the detroit-shoreway neighborhood and am all for it. i just hope its done right.  also will the detroit-shoreway neighborhood label be changed to the detroit-edgewater neighborhood???  might help marketing i dunno

I am not against doing SOMETHING...but the plans that they displayed at the meeting were completely ridiculous.  It stretched from West Blvd to the Lake/Clifton intersection....and from what I saw...it didn nothing to help traffic.  it isn't a matter of being a "NIMBY"...it is a matter of doing something that makes sense.  In fact the plans didn't even address new construction...it said it would add 9 acres to the park.

http://governor.ohio.gov/   then go to constituent affairs...

 

i did, i'll let you know if i get a reply.

^ I haven't yet....

i live in lakewood and use the west shoreway to get to work every day. i understand that this will slow down my commute to work every day. i also realize how much valuable land this opens up for development and how much this will help the redevelopment of the detroit-shoreway neighborhood and am all for it. i just hope its done right.  also will the detroit-shoreway neighborhood label be changed to the detroit-edgewater neighborhood???  might help marketing i dunno

 

Your in the minority. Any and all of the Lakewoodians I have ever talked with hate it. Sucks to be them.

I don't think they will change the name of Detroit-Shoreway. Edgewater is already it's own neighborhood.

Yeah, the Lakewood people seem irritated. I also commute from the Edgewater/Cove area of Lakewood. By the time this gets into high construction, I hope to have a place on the Rapid line!

Your in the minority. Any and all of the Lakewoodians I have ever talked with hate it. Sucks to be them.

 

You didn't ask me!  :wink:

 

Let's see.... West Shoreway-to-boulevard conversion work starting in late 2009. Inner Belt reconstruction getting into high-gear at or near that time. Clifton Boulevard reconstruction starting either this year or next. Anything else I'm missing?

 

How do you spell relief? R-A-I-L ...as in West Shore Corridor commuter rail!

 

 

i would love for that to happen....im with ya....also a lakewoodite

I live on Clifton in Lakewood and work downtown. As I said before, I am still not sure how I feel about all of this. It will slow my commute to work. Bad. But it will open new opportunities to the city. Good. But before I can accept or not accept this plan, I have a few questions I would love to ask the city, ODOT, and the people who are soooo supportive of the changes:

 

1. We are hearing about opening up land for development as a result of the West Shoreway rehab. Who's to say this land will be developed? We have land ALL OVER the city that is prime land for development and it's been prime land since the beginning of time. Think of parking lots in Public Square, empty buildings on Euclid, beautiful views of the city and Lake Erie from Lakeside Avenue which are just fields of weeds surrounded by industrial wastelands. I could go on, but you get the drift. So who's to say that this new land will be developed? Suppose it just sits there and nothing happens? Where is the committment from developers? Who is interested in this land? Is anybody? Or is this all "hopes and dreams"?

 

2. We're hearing about extra land added to Edgewater Park. Will this land be used effectively or will it just become grass?

 

3. If the city of Cleveland hasn't abolished red light and speed cameras by the time this project is completed, how many of these can we expect to see lining the new boulevard?

 

4. By taking away a mass transit highway and turning it into a 35-mph zone, we must assume that this new boulevard will literally be swamped by traffic. The people in the Edgewater neighborhood, Lakewood, and Rocky River won't just suddenly dissapear. They'll be eager to speed in this new zone. Howabout decreasing traffic and congestions by creating a Rapid Transit that runs from downtown all the way thru Lakewood along Clifton? Why not? We have 50 million for this and 100 million for that. What's stopping a rapid transit besides cash flow? Is there anyone that thinks a boulevard would trigger eco. development but a rapid transit wouldn't? So why spend x amount of dollars on this W. Shoreway plan knowing that a rapid line would definately seal the deal!?

^ see my post ealier on this page...(7th down)

Well, it's Cleveland's portion of the road, right? I don't see how it benefits them if people from Rocky River and Lakewood can buzz in and out of the city in 10 minutes.

 

I agree with you regarding the light rail options, of course. In progressive places, rail is always at least part of the discussion and here it's off the table.

There are no guarantees about development happening anywhere. But I can guarantee where development WON'T happen -- next to a 50-mph limited access highway.

^well a 50 mph hour highway hasn't stopped development in other cities. 

 

it's one of the reasons i'm excited by jackson's focus on getting the city fixed.  people have choices where to live, and in this region the cost and hassle (brownfields, city politics, pollution, jobs in suburbs, schools, etc) of developing and living on this land has long outweighed what many of us view as prime development land - views, location, amenities, etc.

 

i think that we MUST demand that a rail line in incorporated into this project.  we owe it to ourselves to start re-building the city for the future and not the past.  otherwise, it is a huge lost opportunity. 

^well a 50 mph hour highway hasn't stopped development in other cities.

 

Let me rephrase. How many 50 mph limited-access highways have condos where you can pull out of a drivewalk or sidestreet onto the highway? Or walk out of your condo to take a stroll along the highway?

 

Development is occurring along access roads to limited-access highways, but not on the highways themselves. The reason is a limited-access highway, even in its most minimal form (see Route 8 between I-271 and SR303) is not feasible. And if more access roads are added to the highway to reach any new developments, then it's no longer limited access.

^well a 50 mph hour highway hasn't stopped development in other cities. 

 

it's one of the reasons i'm excited by jackson's focus on getting the city fixed.  people have choices where to live, and in this region the cost and hassle (brownfields, city politics, pollution, jobs in suburbs, schools, etc) of developing and living on this land has long outweighed what many of us view as prime development land - views, location, amenities, etc.

 

i think that we MUST demand that a rail line in incorporated into this project.  we owe it to ourselves to start re-building the city for the future and not the past.   otherwise, it is a huge lost opportunity. 

 

I'm not an expert on this (KJP can probably help), but wouldn't it seem to make sense to extend the green line across the Detroit-Superior bridge (on the lower level) and then run it out either along Detroit or as part of this project, maybe ending in downtown Rocky River?

See the following link for the project I'm working on...

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6001.0

NOTE: sure would be nice like, a la South Florida, we could have extended/developed cvsr commuter rail to relieve traffic and allow commuters to circumvent I-77 bridge construction... oops, I forgot, this is backwards, transit-hating Cleveland...

 

Attention I-77 commuters

 

Year and a half of repairs to bridge over I-480 will begin in April

Tuesday, March 20, 2007

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Interstate 77 drivers in Cleveland's southeastern suburbs should prepare for a year and a half of delays while crews replace the deck of a bridge spanning Interstate 480.

 

Read More...

 

NOTE: sure would be nice like, a la South Florida, we could have extended/developed cvsr commuter rail to relieve traffic and allow commuters to circumvent I-77 bridge construction... oops, I forgot, this is backwards, transit-hating Cleveland...

 

Clvlndr...I think that is unfair of you to say that or make the South Fl comparison.  Even with the commuter rail line I-95 is sick mess from Downtown Miami damn near to Hollywood.  It's maddening.

 

I understand your frustration, but your analogy is no better than the "horrible" lead-ins the PD is famous for.

 

I would love to see commuter rail between Cleveland and Canton (as well as other points), but lets leave the negative BS on the cleveland.com site.

Good. The bridge needs reconstructing, not another overlay with concrete/latex that is only a bandaid for another 5-10 years. While they are at it, beautify it!

NOTE: sure would be nice like, a la South Florida, we could have extended/developed cvsr commuter rail to relieve traffic and allow commuters to circumvent I-77 bridge construction... oops, I forgot, this is backwards, transit-hating Cleveland...

 

Clvlndr...I think that is unfair of you to say that or make the South Fl comparison.  Even with the commuter rail line I-95 is sick mess from Downtown Miami damn near to Hollywood.  It's maddening.

 

I understand your frustration, but your analogy is no better than the "horrible" lead-ins the PD is famous for.

 

I would love to see commuter rail between Cleveland and Canton (as well as other points), but lets leave the negative BS on the cleveland.com site.

 

MTS, how can you not get negative sometimes (and I'm not all the time) when it comes to transit in the Cleveland region (and all of Ohio, for that matter)., while I understand your drift and the fact this thread could probably be combined with the cvsr-to-commuter rail proposal thread (which I started)... Its just that, you know, the orange barrels on local freeways is a summer ritual here and every driver gets vexed.  Maybe the Miami-Tri Rail analogy isn't great, but remember when both, respectively, Detroit-Superior then Main Ave bridges where closed for years for reconstruction, not once did any ODOT or local official even mention the option of the Red Line which serves the area... And here again, with I-77, we've been talking, and talking, and talking, again, about extending CVSR into Tower City (meanwhile, little Summit County extended cvsr south to Canton.... Frankly, I'll be surprised if it ever happens.  I get so tired of how we bow to sprawl and the auto in this area and act like the pretty good transit system that was handed to us by generations, previous, doesn't even exist... I guess we'll all have to hold our breath, lobby then hope for the Lorain/West Shore extension championed by KJP and his peeps... unless, of course, JoeC has his way and kills it in its crib.

MTS, how can you not get negative sometimes (and I'm not all the time) when it comes to transit in the Cleveland region (and all of Ohio, for that matter)., while I understand your drift and the fact this thread could probably be combined with the cvsr-to-commuter rail proposal thread (which I started)... Its just that, you know, the orange barrels on local freeways is a summer ritual here and every driver gets vexed.  Maybe the Miami-Tri Rail analogy isn't great, but remember when both, respectively, Detroit-Superior then Main Ave bridges where closed for years for reconstruction, not once did any ODOT or local official even mention the option of the Red Line which serves the area... And here again, with I-77, we've been talking, and talking, and talking, again, about extending CVSR into Tower City (meanwhile, little Summit County extended cvsr south to Canton.... Frankly, I'll be surprised if it ever happens.  I get so tired of how we bow to sprawl and the auto in this area and act like the pretty good transit system that was handed to us by generations, previous, doesn't even exist... I guess we'll all have to hold our breath, lobby then hope for the Lorain/West Shore extension championed by KJP and his peeps... unless, of course, JoeC has his way and kills it in its crib.

 

What you just typed, is the guts of a great letter to send to Joe C., the Mayor, the ODOT folks, county officials, local media, transportation official and advocates, etc., to remind people that we have adequate transportation alternatives.  Step up and do something.  I'm sure others in the region felt like you.  Your letter/involvement could be the catalyst.

 

Look at what you typed.  Although, I read the entire message, I was turned off because of the negative energy in the open lines.  Sound familiar (read:  do you work for the plain dealer?)?  By doing (writing) like that you become no better than the negative media folks we already have in Cleveland.

 

Becoming negative like others in NE Ohio?  Hell No...I can't and won't.  This city is only as good as its weakest citizen; I'm not going to be the one to tip the scales in their favor.  I don't want to apart of that negative level of consciences.

^true, dat.

Noozer posted this article in the Innerbelt thread (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2438.630). 

As it is more related to this existing Shoreway thread, I'm reposting here.

 

 

Traffic flow gets priority in plan to transform West Shoreway

Proposal's favored option would create less new parkland

Tuesday, March 27, 2007

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Keeping commuters happy won out over more parkland near Edgewater Park in the plans to transform the West Shoreway into a slower-speed boulevard.

 

Community leaders agreed last week to use an existing ramp to move traffic to and from the west end of the boulevard...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1174985159116020.xml&coll=2

I haven't really been following the thread, but it seems to me that the consultants are discounting commuters' ability to, oh I don't know, find another route downtown? If they were all robot-like automata incapable of adapting, then perhaps I could see their point.

^That's what I was thinking...

 

Also, this seems to me to indicate that light rail or BRT has to be a part of this project.

^ Unfortunately..it's not part of the project.  I was at the West Shoreway meeting a while back and suggested that rail would be a great alternative to reduce traffic....but I guess when I mentioned this I must have grown three heads with the looks I got from the ODOT "planners....it made me sick!  Even Westbrook shrugged it off and said that there have been talks of rail, and suggested I contact the people in charge of the Cleveland/Lorain rail project.  Nothing, however, seems to be in the near future for the shoreway project.  Evey plan that was shown at the meeting was all based around autos...too bad....

The problem is the people turning right onto Lake at the evening rush hours?  Here's a solution, and it would cost a heck of a lot less than millions:

 

A sign at the Clifton/Lake intersection saying "No right turn: local traffic only 4-7 pm." 

 

If inbound morning traffic becomes an issue, place a sign at the entrance to Lake at the Lake/West Blvd saying "Do not enter; local traffic only 6-10 AM". 

 

Perhaps add a few speed bumps, narrow the lanes, and allow street parking on both sides at all times.

 

I haven't really been following the thread, but it seems to me that the consultants are discounting commuters' ability to, oh I don't know, find another route downtown? If they were all robot-like automata incapable of adapting, then perhaps I could see their point.

 

Yes, that is half of ODOT's problem; the other half is that they are robot like automata incapable of adapting.  They don't stop to think of if there is a better way to reroute traffic flows around a troublespot, instead they see themselves as only reacting to the traffic flows their models show.

BRT, bus lanes or something has to be a part of this discussion! Everyday, the 55 buses go down Clifton and Lake and they are JAM PACKED! If it's going to go from 15 minutes to 30 minutes to get to work with the Shoreway all bottled up, those people, imho, are going to take they cars on 90...

Something simple as BUS only lanes during rush AM/PM hour periods on the curb lanes would be way for gradual slide into having dedicated BRT in the future.

When is the "gold" line starting?

Don't limit your venting to this forum. Tell your elected officials what you think! Write letters to the editor of the newspapers! This shit will continue if the powerbrokers believe they have no reason to cause change.

Yay City Planning Commission.

Boo City Council.

 

Wish I could've been there.

 

Shoreway plan riles West Side leaders

Panel wants to eliminate ramps

Saturday, March 31, 2007

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The Cleveland City Planning Commission infuriated West Side leaders Friday by adopting a street plan that yields more green space at Edgewater Park but would leave nearby neighbors and commuters battling heavier traffic.

 

A livid Councilman Jay Westbrook called the commission's 5-2 vote "a dagger in the heart of the community."

 

At issue are plans to convert the 3-mile West Shoreway into a slower speed boulevard by late 2011.

Merge alert.

 

I second the motion for a merge with the other Shoreway thread.

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4526.0

^^Cool news.  Maybe the Planning Commission's move will force ODOT and Council to think creatively about how to incorporate transit and other methods to reduce traffic.  But somehow I have a feeling that Council will just b**ch and moan until they get what they want.

Please write letters to city council, especially Jay Westbrook.  Tell him that rush hour traffic belongs on I-90 and not through Edgewater Park.

 

 

Shoreway plan riles West Side leaders

Panel wants to eliminate ramps

Saturday, March 31, 2007

Tom Breckenridge

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The Cleveland City Planning Commission infuriated West Side leaders Friday by adopting a street plan that yields more green space at Edgewater Park but would leave nearby neighbors and commuters battling heavier traffic.

 

A livid Councilman Jay Westbrook called the commission's 5-2 vote "a dagger in the heart of the community."

 

At issue are plans to convert the 3-mile West Shoreway into a slower speed boulevard by late 2011...

 

Westbrook's quote about Ronayne is low. The guy lives two blocks from the park, he's allowed to comment on the plan.

Not to mention that Ronayne was the one who led the Lakefront Planning process in the first place.  This is the thing I hate about Councilpeople- they tend to be very NIMBY driven.

And refusing to shake his hand? Wow, talk about a Grumpy Gus. I think somebody needs some time-out time in the corner!

 

If you want to get behind the Planning Commission's vote, speak up. There's no such thing as silence, as someone else's voice will surely fill the void you leave.

So this one intersecetion might "teeter" on failure for a half hour each morning?  I'll take the extra parkland and $3M please.  I'm pretty impressed with the Commission on this one.  Our burg has way too many intersections over-engineered to ease the almighty rushour commute [the Detroit/W. 25th/DS Bridge one being my least favorite]...and it's not without cost.