Pedestrian traffic is not just walking.  It's also biking, which cannot currently be done from Lake or 76th, not to mention strollers & wheelchairs.  Only 65th or W. Blvd, the two complete opposite ends of the park.  By improving the two existing tunnels and adding another car access point at 73rd, you've more than doubled the amount of access.

 

I think you've totally underestimated the impact of the ramp reconfiguring at 25th & 28th.  If you go back and look, the area has a lot of pedestrian traffic (over 400 units of housing in Lakeview Terrace) and is a nightmare to get across.  The Eastbound on ramp from 28th really needs to be removed.  The NW corner of 25th & Detroit will be opened up for development and help make that corner what it should be, a major hub of the city.  I've already heard talk of a hotel being located there.  The sum of all this "reconfiguration" will improve all these aspects.

 

Did you go to the meeting that was held recently at Mt Carmel to see the presentation and designs?  I think it goes a long way in being creative and using high end materials.  It also makes alot of boring expanses of mowed grass more interesting with landscaping and trees.

 

The project is not just about access to Edgewater.  Think of it as a facelift for the entire shoreway...  one that does alot of things including improved access to the park, upgraded landscaping, lighting....  better vehicular connections at several points...

Yes, this project is just a facelift, but a second rate one compared with earlier plans.

 

I just feel that Cleveland is being duped with a sort of Bait and Switch scheme. If you look at the original concepts we were given this really cool redesigned shoreway neighborhood. Now a few years later, we're given a watered down version that is no way near as exciting or interesting. Cleveland was given an opportunity to do something really cool and once again the plans fell through and now you get the current plan unveiled a few weeks ago. yawn.

 

I can't believe people aren't fighting over this crappy design. It seems to be the typical Cleveland mentality, of "hey, there's going to be some investment, it's better to do something than nothing." Why can't we for once do something that is top notch, rather than another ho hum project?

 

 

I'm not going to wade too deep into this, as the last several pages have hurt my head, but I guess one concern I would have from ODOT's recent project update: "Widen the intersection of Detroit Avenue and West 28th

Street to accommodate the traffic" and "Widen Detroit Avenue between West 28th Street and West

25th Street, and widen West 28th Street to accommodate the new traffic plan" (http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/LakefrontWest/Documents/Projectupdate_022310_FINAL.pdf). Unless I'm misreading this, I can't say I'm a huge fan of that. Detroit Avenue is already crazily wide in the area between about W. 28th and W. 32nd. To add more lanes immediately to the east (if that indeed is the plan) would make this section of Detroit look like a half-mile parking lot. If anything, we should be tightening the street here to encourage a more pedestrian-oriented central "gayborhood" around Bounce, Club Cleveland, the Tool Shed, etc. 

Agreed...Detroit is wide enough there as are its sidestreets.  Better for that area to continue as it has.  I'm perplexed.  We could care less about traffic on the shoreway itself, where traffic matters, but let's tear up an acutal neighborhood because we anticipate tons of traffic on the "new" W28th.

Yes you can. You absolutely can. If we were to do something less elaborate here, like fix up the tunnels and provide some additional shoreway access, that leaves us (or the state, whomever) with more money for other things. It's not like we don't have a backlog of projects that need funded.

 

I don't know why these tunnels just aren't fixed up now. It's really nothing more than a weekend cub scout project to make them clean and attractive. All you need are a few shovels, some lightbulbs, some brick pavers, some new tile, and a good scrubbing and these tunnels turn from sketchy to attractive in a weekend.

What concerns me most about Detroit between W 25th and W 28th is that there are already giant swaths of surface lots, but the remaining buildings at least front directly to the sidewalk (with varying degrees of historic exterior detail), and there have been a number of in-fill projects proposed for this area. I don't see how you would be able to expand the road without either cutting severely into both sidewalks or tearing down buildings on one side of the other, both of which seem counterintuitive. Particularly as it seems like there is finally some good development momentum in these couple of blocks.

West Blvd - I've got some lightbulbs & shovels, come on down with your cubscouts...    how can you make a statement like that when 2 posts before you were complaining about lack of interesting or exciting designs? 

 

The intersection at 28th & Detroit will need to be widened to accomodate the truck traffic getting on & off the Shoreway.  The 25th street connection should be narrowed up & made more pedestrian friendly with sidewalks on both sides going into the flats.  The only building slated to be torn down is the Linda's Superette which is not historic or architecturally significant.  The owner is actually very anxious for the project and the demolition.  All this was discussed at the ODOT update meeting.

Yes, this project is just a facelift, but a second rate one compared with earlier plans.

 

I just feel that Cleveland is being duped with a sort of Bait and Switch scheme. If you look at the original concepts we were given this really cool redesigned shoreway neighborhood. Now a few years later, we're given a watered down version that is no way near as exciting or interesting. Cleveland was given an opportunity to do something really cool and once again the plans fell through and now you get the current plan unveiled a few weeks ago. yawn.

 

I can't believe people aren't fighting over this crappy design. It seems to be the typical Cleveland mentality, of "hey, there's going to be some investment, it's better to do something than nothing." Why can't we for once do something that is top notch, rather than another ho hum project?

 

 

 

Unfortunately in the realm of government spending your analysis holds true.  If we don't spend it, someone else will.  So we might as well beautify while the dollars are still there.  I feel the same way.  The project has lost it's luster.  However, choosing between the watered down version and letting the shoreway crumble as it is now, I'll have a tall glass of water....

Forgot to mention--I saw the survey crew out at West Blvd and Clifton again this morning while running around.  I certainly hope construction workers come soon after!

The only building slated to be torn down is the Linda's Superette which is not historic or architecturally significant.  The owner is actually very anxious for the project and the demolition. 

 

Speak for yourself... I would be extremely upset if that building came down.  I find it architecturally significant, I'm astounded that anyone wouldn't, and I now hate this plan more than ever.  More destruction of tall dense urbanity in the service of boulevard vibrant greenspace, and more decisions about cars and trucks made by people who hate them.  Why would we want to route truck traffic through the middle of this neighborhood, when currently all those trucks can bypass it?  This is beginning to sound not just ill-advised but insane.

Linda's superette is a 2 story convenient store.

 

Tall dense urbanity it is not.

 

Did your friends in lakewood tell you about this tall dense urbanity, or do you have first hand knowledge of it? 

 

I don't have a picture of it but it is clearly labeled and visible in a google maps street view.  Please go look at it and then come back and repeat your statement.

 

"I find it architecturally significant, I'm astounded that anyone wouldn't, and I now hate this plan more than ever. "

 

The only thing that marks it as any different than thousands of rinky dink mom and pop convenient stores is that it doesn't have a parking lot fronting the street or a pay phone.

 

Perhaps you are referring to the Jamestown building next door to the Kitchenette?  a 4 story brick walk up?

 

I find that building architecturally "interesting" not significant.  It is probably better constructed and more visibly appealing than any new development that will occur around the W. 25th st Detroit intersection but it isn't significant.  And if it was on w 9th you could convert it and sell each floor for north of $250,000  perhaps up to 500,000 if there are 4000 square feet/floor.

 

 

Most of the heavy industry isn't on 25th st.  it is either in the flats, on detroit,  over past W.45th st. or south of detroit right around 28th.

 

Truck traffic will not go through the middle of anything it isn't going through now.

 

What makes you thing "we" hate cars?  I have one, I drive it every day, I also take the bus and the train, even cabs.  Different modes of transport for different reasons.  Why is wanting to have more options available somehow "hating" cars?  I would prefer that PEOPLE have the top spot over cars.

 

What makes the most sense for the most people. 

 

Look they are getting a new I-90 interchange in Avon....when the region is stagnant or losing population, so we can turn more cornfields into McManions and strip malls.

 

I don't think that is a very smart use of our limited resources BUT BUT BUT....I am not CONSTANTLY beating up those who will benefit from this or calling them or the idea dumb.  It is smart for them.

 

I live in this neighborhood, as do many posting here, it seems to be a good idea to those who it will affect the most.

 

WE GET IT...YOU DON'T LIKE IT.  Your point has been made, the horse is dead. 

WE GET IT... YOU DO LIKE IT... AND YOU DON'T LIKE ME.  That horse is dead as well.   

 

I may "beat up" on an idea or an argument I diagree with, but I make efforts to avoid going after the speaker's character.  I may even lampoon an outlook, and I don't mind having my outlook lampooned... but challenging someone's personal honesty is a different matter.

 

If you feel I've been too harsh with you, at any time, let me know or let a moderator know.  Please do not consider it an invitation for a personal pissing contest.

 

FYI I used to park at W26th and Detroit every morning and wait there for a bus downtown.  I wouldn't write so much about this topic if I weren't intimately familiar with the areas involved.  Contrary to your clear implication, I do not come on here to lie to people about what I know, what I believe, or why I believe it.  As stated many times recently... I would appreciate any effort you can muster to deal strictly with the discussion topic and not the character of other forumers.

 

At the moment we're talking about aspects of this project that were not dealt with last week, or at any point that I know of.  Linda's Superette is no Terminal Tower.  My original post left out the word tall, but I added it in an edit after I compared its 2-story glory with what so often gets built these days.  I don't think it should be leveled so we can put more truck traffic onto a side street in this neighborhood.  It's more than significant enough to not tear it down for that purpose.

I don't know you well enough to spend any energy disliking you.

 

I find your arguments full of holes.

 

So that dense urbanity you were speaking of was a parking lot?

 

I have not impugned your character, I have questioned your observations.

 

You have gone from tearing the project apart in its entirety to now tearing apart each of the components.

 

Yup, you don't like it...got it. 

 

You don't like the median, you don't like the speed limit, you don't like the on/off ramps, you don't like the multipurpose path, you don't like the cliff.

 

Let me preview the future.

 

you won't like the landscaping, the lighting, the color of the paint on the bridge supports, that it is harder to get into/out of bounce, the contractors.  the whole thing will take too long and cost too much.

 

You don't like it

 

You did like it, but your friends in lakewood talked you out of it.

 

I got all of it...did I miss anything? 

 

surprise me, tell me something you like about it.

I used to like the entire concept.  All of it.  Every aspect, as originally presented years ago.  But I hadn't thought it through, nor had I really understood the other side's points at that time.  As with all things, your mileage may vary.

 

It is absolutely false that "don't like the on/off ramps" because that's the polar opposite of my stated position on that.  Either I was lying when I stated that position, several times so far, or I wasn't.  Make a choice.  As of now you're claiming I said something I didn't say, and you're holding it against me.  For the last time... I support adding access to the shoreway from the neighborhoods.

 

And I don't understand what I've said to indicate that I "don't like" the cliffs.  That's just goofy.  The cliffs were discussed, but what a curious characterization of the point I tried to make about them.  As far as examining the general idea, and then the specific components... yes, that is how I analyze a project plan.  Guilty as charged.

 

Go ahead and question my analysis or my view of the facts all day long.  But please scan through your posts for the word "you,"  especially that last one.  The subject of that post is obviously not the shoreway plan.  The shoreway plan is an it, not a you.

OK, guys, this argument was getting way long in the tooth as it was.  Now you're arguing about the argument.  Nobody really cares to hear it, so take it to PM if you feel you must continue.  Better yet, drop it.  Either way, keep it civil on this thread, and please don't keep going around in circles.  Make your point, then let others have their say.  No bonus for last words.

Points made, and thank you X. 

 

I yield my remaining 11 posts to the floor.

Forgot to mention--I saw the survey crew out at West Blvd and Clifton again this morning while running around.  I certainly hope construction workers come soon after!

 

Ask and ye shall receive.  Well sort off.  The City of Cleveland had some fine employees lazily dropping cold patch into the many cracks and potholes on Clifton after I posted this earlier.  Not the construction crews I had hoped for....but they were amusing to watch!

Yes, this project is just a facelift, but a second rate one compared with earlier plans.

 

I just feel that Cleveland is being duped with a sort of Bait and Switch scheme. If you look at the original concepts we were given this really cool redesigned shoreway neighborhood. Now a few years later, we're given a watered down version that is no way near as exciting or interesting. Cleveland was given an opportunity to do something really cool and once again the plans fell through and now you get the current plan unveiled a few weeks ago. yawn.

 

I can't believe people aren't fighting over this crappy design. It seems to be the typical Cleveland mentality, of "hey, there's going to be some investment, it's better to do something than nothing." Why can't we for once do something that is top notch, rather than another ho hum project?

 

 

 

I also have to sadly agree with this.

 

Living on Father Caruso at 69th I stand to be one of the prime beneficeries of this project. It will likely make my view more attractive, increase my recreational options and make traffic patterns better for me. But still....I wish it was something more.

If I were king of the world I would turn the Battery Park power house into a train station for commuter rail.  coming in from grafton, berea and points southwest (at least it looks like that is where the tracks run, someone please correct me if I am wrong)

 

and run a streetcar down detroit at least to Rocky river...and possibly to the county line.

 

And the shoreway would look like clifton with lights and at grade cross streets to get to the park.

 

I also think we should really consider moving burke to the near east side...between E 55th and the clinic, Between Chester and Carnagie.  It would then sit between our 2 employment axis near rail, near the Euclid corridor, near the highways and OFF the lake.

 

Is there enough land there?  is there anything monumental that would prevent this?  like perhaps the building heights downtown?  could you solve that by orientating the the runways from the northeast to the southwest like hopkins, instead of E/W like burke?

 

 

On the satelite map it looks like their is enough land.  Setting aside the purely political issues involved, like the people living there are not going to want to move.  is there anything else that would prevent this?

 

 

That frees up burke for something useful.  another park/marina?  The fact that it is comprised of dredgings and probably toxic limit what kind of building you can do on it, but townhouses like the avenue district might be feasible.  heck think outside the box, how about a nascar track with a professional soccer field on the infield?

 

Much like detroit we are going to have to deal with the fact that cleveland has under 500,000 in population but must maintain infrastructure of a city of over 1 million.  It doesn't really help to knock down every other house on a street when we still need to maintain the roads, sewers, and electrical to all the areas like all of those houses and people were still there.

 

We need to figure out ways to consolidate.

Put an airport in the center of the east side and put townhouses on the dredgings of Burke, where there already is an airport.  For once I'm speechless. 

Guys... Let's keep this on the shoreway. Gracias.

For once I'm speechless. 

 

thank gawd.

 

How about a little thinking outside of the box and come up with anything constructive instead of just sitting back and ripping everything apart.

 

Did you miss the part where one sits on the lakefront and the other is a post industrial waste land?  how about we re-purpose what we have.

 

 

I for one would not mind having this thread locked down for a few days, or giving the two folks some time to rest.

That BP Powerhouse would be a slam dunk for some type of transit stop.  Open a coffee shop/deli on one side where people could wait for the next train or grab a sandwich on your way home.  There are tracks there for light rail.  I followed them east last fall toward downtown, but they disappear right at the Westinghouse curve.  Not sure how far West they go either.

That BP Powerhouse would be a slam dunk for some type of transit stop. Open a coffee shop/deli on one side where people could wait for the next train or grab a sandwich on your way home. There are tracks there for light rail. I followed them east last fall toward downtown, but they disappear right at the Westinghouse curve. Not sure how far West they go either.

 

Those tracks are still heavily used by freight aren't they?  The ones on the bluff?  I think there are both NS and Conrail trains making their way through there?

 

 

Those tracks are still heavily used by freight aren't they? The ones on the bluff? I think there are both NS and Conrail trains making their way through there?

 

Yup...would need big politics and $$ to transition those tracks into workable passenger rail

No, there is a 3rd set of tracks, that were light rail at one time on the South side.  The two other sets are actively used for freight daily.  If  you zoom in on google maps you can actually see them.

No, there is a 3rd set of tracks, that were light rail at one time on the South side. The two other sets are actively used for freight daily. If you zoom in on google maps you can actually see them.

 

Did not know that--if they go anywhere that would be great.

those tracks die out when you hit the shoreway bridge, and never reappear.

 

speaking of the west shoreway... ahhh yes, the west shoreway boulevard conversion.  That's the topic :wink:

Discussion of Burke has been moved here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14198.0.html

The ODOT project to renovate the tunnels to Edgewater at W. 76th and at Lake in front of Don's Lighthouse is now out for bid.  Contractors bids are due on June 3rd and we should see work starting by the end of July.

 

For anyone interested, plans can be viewed here, https://extranet.dot.state.oh.us/groups/contracts/Lists/ConstructionBiddingDocs/Links.aspx

Project number 100379

 

I scanned through the prints and the project to renovate these tunnels is much more than I initially anticipated.  Both tunnels are getting alot of work to patch & recoat the walls, floor & ceilings, alot of new lighting, of course the new cut & fill to build the ramps, removing the steps, concrete retaining walls, new landscaping, a good amount of new drainage pipe & structures...  Both tunnels should get a ton of use though when these projects are finished. 

Bids are due tomorrow for the ODOT Project to renovate both tunnels, W. 76th and Lake Ave/Don's Lighthouse.  Hopefully all goes well and the work can get started right away.

 

Also received a note that that there is legislation pending with the Ohio Senate to lower the speed limit for the Shoreway.  The legislation is needed in order to proceed with the planned redevelopment of the Shoreway.

 

This matter is extremely urgent.  The legislation must pass by Thursday of this week. 

 

Please contact Senator Tom Patton to urge him to pass the legislation to lower the speed limit for the Shoreway.  Senator Patton's contact information is below. 

 

District 24

Tom Patton ®

Senator

Senate Building

1 Capitol Square, 1st Floor

Columbus, OH 43215

 

Phone: (614) 466-8056

Email: [email protected]

Bids were received yesterday on the ODOT project to renovate the tunnel at W. 76th & Lake.  Barring any contractual issues, work should begin sometime in August.

 

The vote on legislation to reduce the speed limit on the Shoreway did not pass.  This is a major setback for the entire project, as design & development work on any of the phases cannot begin until this legislation passes.  The legislation will be reintroduced in the fall and hopefully tacked on to another bill.  Until this passes, no design work will be done for the planned interchange at W. 73rd or the other phases.

Refresh me... why is a lower speed limit necessary to provide access at W73rd?

Yeah, I don't understand this.  I would like to see the speed limit lowered as well, but I don't understand why intersections couldn't be added if the speed limit must remain at 50 MPH.  SR 91 through Eastlake is a 50 MPH divided road with plenty of intersections.

^ As are potions of RT 8 in Macedonia.

 

I did notice the right lane construction work is about done between the race car derby hill and the Whiskey Island exit.  Not sure what they were doing, but glad to have the lane back!

Sounds like typical Senator Patton. Get his sugar daddies in the Laborers union, at Minute Man, Commissioner Dimora, Thomas "Tony" George and the rest of the Cleveland underworld to go along with this, and it will pass.

The West Shoreway is a 50 mph arterial road.  Making it 35 would be nuts.  Ohio needs to clean up its speed limits, get them standardized, and quit using them as a revenue source.  Our Supreme Court just decided that cops can convict you for speeding based on imagination alone.  Northeast Ohio is littered with speedtrap municipalities that are openly used to "keep taxes lower for residents."  This hostile backdoor taxation destroys the business climate here.  It tells people they'd be better off avoiding the area entirely.  It also wastes police resources, thus raising the crime rate, thus once again destroying the business climate.

 

Many beneficial aspects of this plan still could and should proceed.  But that speed limit change is not the direction we need to go.  Let's compromise... do the good parts of the Shoreway plan, and drop the most controversial.

The West Shoreway is a 50 mph arterial road. Making it 35 would be nuts. Ohio needs to clean up its speed limits, get them standardized, and quit using them as a revenue source. Our Supreme Court just decided that cops can convict you for speeding based on imagination alone. Northeast Ohio is littered with speedtrap municipalities that are openly used to "keep taxes lower for residents." This hostile backdoor taxation destroys the business climate here. It tells people they'd be better off avoiding the area entirely. It also wastes police resources, thus raising the crime rate, thus once again destroying the business climate.

 

Many beneficial aspects of this plan still could and should proceed. But that speed limit change is not the direction we need to go. Let's compromise... do the good parts of the Shoreway plan, and drop the most controversial.

 

Agreed, there are too many useful and much needed aspects of this to let it wither on the vine due to the speed.  the road was designed for 50 MPH and for the most part it appears to be staying that way.  Plus there are plenty of other examples of 45-50 MPH roads with intersections.

Yeah, I don't understand this.  I would like to see the speed limit lowered as well, but I don't understand why intersections couldn't be added if the speed limit must remain at 50 MPH.  SR 91 through Eastlake is a 50 MPH divided road with plenty of intersections.

 

This has been discussed about 50x already.  The current plan does not have at grade crossings.  ODOT has studied it a dozen different ways and there is no way to do at grade crossings on the Shoreway without creating major backups into Lakewood or downtown at peak traffic hours.

 

Reducing the speed limit to 35 would add about 5 mins of travel time in either direction.  Section of the Shoreway this affects would be from approx Don's Lighthouse to The Harp, which is 2.1 miles.

 

Basic math: Going 60 mph, this drive takes about 2 mins.  Going 35 mph, the same stretch would take just under 4 mins.

 

For argument's sake, I drive this about 3 times a day, as I work downtown & come home for lunch.  Rarely can you really go 60 mph on this stretch, traffic doesn't allow it.  So the reality is that the impact on commute times is negligible.

 

Can everyone please review the latest 62 page ODOT Power Point presentation from Feb 23, 2010 before making uninformed comments on the project?

 

It's a great presentation, very informative, lots of pretty pictures, easy to understand.  http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/ClevelandUrbanCoreProjects/LakefrontWest/Presentations/Pages/default.aspx

 

and as you stated... it has been discussed 50x already.  No need for the 51st.  Moving onward... ;)

Refresh me... why is a lower speed limit necessary to provide access at W73rd?

 

Technically, it's not.  But changing the law to lower the speed limit is the critical first step in creating the boulevard and the planned connections.  If the law is not changed, the funding is not granted to begin the design & development.  No law change = No design work.

 

Vintage, the developer of Battery Park, worked very hard to get the 76th & Lake tunnel renovations "separated" from the rest of this giant project, so at least they could go forward.  I think they may take the same approach & pursue getting the 73rd connection done.  It's a major uphill battle though.

Who is preventing anyone from doing design work on new connections to a 50 mph Shoreway?  Why aren't all the plan's aspects "separated" in this sense?  Seems like it would be easier to acquire funding in smaller increments.  And there's no point in forcing people to accept the parts they don't want, like the new speed limit, when there seems to be broad agreement on the rest of the plan.  I think everyone could come out of this fairly happy. 

Not everyone is against lowering the speed limit... and WE'VE HAD THIS DISCUSSION... PAGES OF IT.  Everyone knows who thinks the speed limit is a terrible idea, and who thinks lowering it will have positive effects.  And if you don't know who stands where, then I suggest rereading the thread...

 

End of speed limit discussion.

Who is preventing anyone from doing design work on new connections to a 50 mph Shoreway?

 

Good question, perhaps Sen. Patton can answer it for you.  See my earlier post for his contact info.

After reviewing most of the presentation, I now don't understand even more why this can't move forward if the speed limit must stay at 50 MPH.

50 MPH = good?  Then let's test that out by changing the speed limit on Clifton and Lake to 50 MPH instead of what it is now. 

50 MPH = good?  Then let's test that out by changing the speed limit on Clifton and Lake to 50 MPH instead of what it is now. 

 

Here here--and while we're at it I think 50 mph would be reasonable on Chester, Carneigie, Shaker and Fairmount.  Who needs an Opportunity Cooridor when you can BLAST through the Heights at 50 MPH. 

 

Game on!  ;)

Who said 50 mph is good?  I'm just saying that the fact that they won't lower the speed limit shouldn't be a roadblock to this project moving forward.

50 MPH = good?  Then let's test that out by changing the speed limit on Clifton and Lake to 50 MPH instead of what it is now. 

 

Here here--and while we're at it I think 50 mph would be reasonable on Chester, Carneigie, Shaker and Fairmount.  Who needs an Opportunity Cooridor when you can BLAST through the Heights at 50 MPH. 

 

Game on!  ;)

Where on Shaker or Fairmount can you drive at 50 MPH or is that sarcasm?