Remember that people are coming from 90 westbound in a seamless transition.  A sudden drop to 35 would be a mess.  It works where the shoreway becomes Clifton because its readily obvious at that point that the freeway's ending.  Try to do that downtown and people will get killed.

What studies have been done to show that lowering a speed limit will increase the likelyhood of traffic fatalities?

Plenty... which is why there are so many mandatory precautions in place wherever you see sudden and drastic speed changes.  Rumble strips, flashing lights, signs that say Danger, etc.  This would be on par with dead man's curve and the 490 dead end, except that instead of being an unfortunate consequence of bad planning it would be fully intentional.

Plenty... which is why there are so many mandatory precautions in place wherever you see sudden and drastic speed changes.  Rumble strips, flashing lights, signs that say Danger, etc.  This would be on par with dead man's curve and the 490 dead end, except that instead of being an unfortunate consequence of bad planning it would be fully intentional.

 

I agree with you.  Speed limit changes like that don't really work unless there is a physical change in the road conditions and/or scenery.  I initially supported the reduced speed limit based on the fact that the plan included intersections.  Without the intersections the speed limit reduction doesn't make sense to me.  I'd love to see the Shoreway converted to a 35 mph boulevard with intersections, street parking and some development, but the current plan lends itself toward maintaining the 50 mph speed limit.

If the shoreway were ever converted to a boulevard is it possible that part of Edgewater park could be sold to developers? Gasp. I know it's a debateable topic but the parking lots near the pier would be perfect for a boardwalk with restaurants and residential. You wouldn't necessarily remove greenspace, just convert surface parking lots for development and push parking to the shoreway.

If the shoreway were ever converted to a boulevard is it possible that part of Edgewater park could be sold to developers? Gasp. I know it's a debateable topic but the parking lots near the pier would be perfect for a boardwalk with restaurants and residential. You wouldn't necessarily remove greenspace, just convert surface parking lots for development and push parking to the shoreway.

 

If done the right way, such a development could completely transform Edgewater for the better.

 

You would have better facilities, more visitors, and more stakeholders to ensure that the beach is kept a clean and safer environment. The state is too far removed from the Park, and it definitely shows. 

 

It could really be a proud showcase for the city.

I think the fact that they've decided to go with ramp instead of intersections  in addition to the bike trail to the South pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of any development there. I'm trying to visualize where there will be enough square footage to put any buildings in that scenario of significant size and just can't do it.....unless you're talking about taking chunks of the current park on the North side.

I think the fact that they've decided to go with ramp instead of intersections  in addition to the bike trail to the South pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of any development there. I'm trying to visualize where there will be enough square footage to put any buildings in that scenario of significant size and just can't do it.....unless you're talking about taking chunks of the current park on the North side.

 

I think any development will have tons of challenges, but I wouldn't write off the possibility. 

 

I'd suggest redeveloping in the footprint of the current bath facilities. With a surrounding boardwalk. It would take some creativity, but much of that space is currently unattractive and underutilized.  Better use of the surrounding area could be realized with better landscaping and walkways.

 

Building into the hillside, along the Shoreway is intriguing, however. Given an unlimited budget, I'm sure we could come up with some fantastic ideas. I've been to other Great Lakes cities (St. Joes, MI comes to mind) where similar hillsides were developed to become much more welcoming and pedestrian friendly with terraced walkways, viewing areas, picnic tables, etc.

One thing to remember about doing anything to the south of the Shoreway is the very active Train Tracks right at the edge of the top of the bluff.  You cant really do anything that will or might undermine the bluff. 

 

And even if you can terrace it out and have picnic areas...I don't imagine too many folks having a picnic 10, 20, 30 feet from the Freight trains and a similar distance from a highway.  Even if the views are amazing.

 

The bike path terraced in is probably the best use......Everything could/would be different if the shoreway looked more like lake or Clifton, then you could develop the Flat and push closer to the road/park ...but that is not what is going to happen.

 

 

 

 

Sorry I should've been more clear... I meant terracing on the grass in the park, north of the shoreway.

 

 

 

 

 

One thing to remember about doing anything to the south of the Shoreway is the very active Train Tracks right at the edge of the top of the bluff.  You cant really do anything that will or might undermine the bluff. 

 

And even if you can terrace it out and have picnic areas...I don't imagine too many folks having a picnic 10, 20, 30 feet from the Freight trains and a similar distance from a highway.  Even if the views are amazing.

 

The bike path terraced in is probably the best use......Everything could/would be different if the shoreway looked more like lake or Clifton, then you could develop the Flat and push closer to the road/park ...but that is not what is going to happen.

 

 

 

 

Do you mean between the upper and lower sections? towards the western end?

 

Here is the thing, Edgewater is huge and rarely (4th of July) approaches capacity.  It would be very nice and super kewl, but with all our other needs and issues, I just don't see spending that kind of jack to make a place that is perfectly pleasant a 9 instead of a 7 or 8.  especially when we have so many more pressing issues.

 

 

Do you mean between the upper and lower sections? towards the western end?

 

Here is the thing, Edgewater is huge and rarely (4th of July) approaches capacity.  It would be very nice and super kewl, but with all our other needs and issues, I just don't see spending that kind of jack to make a place that is perfectly pleasant a 9 instead of a 7 or 8.  especially when we have so many more pressing issues.

 

It's a state park, maybe Kasich will pay for it. :)

I tend to agree. I also have a hard envisioning the political environment where "selling off one of our most cherished lakefront gems to greedy developers" (as it would be framed by opponents) wouldn't be met with a huge amount of resistance.  Selling unutilized/abandoned/degraded land is one thing,  selling a nice state park is another.

 

 

But, then again, it is State property so maybe Kasich would be willing to dump it cheap to give out some tax breaks!

Yes, the grass hill right along the shoreway.

 

This could be undertaken by a private developer, including a residential component, but I would only favor this route under very very strict guidelines which would preserve views and access.

 

Edgewater has come a long way in the past few years. Yet anyone who has traveled to other coastal cities can clearly see that the Park could be so much more. Just look up some postcards of how it used to look....absolutely beautiful.

 

This should be the most desirable place in the city, but still I'd guess a vast majority of Clevelander's won't go there. It's underdeveloped imho. And the beach is simply not taken care of like it should be. Now if Metroparks takes over, I think there will be better management and new, more visually appealing infrastructure for the public benefit.

 

The shoreway project, whether 35 or 55mph, can and should have a dramatic effect on the place. There is a ton of room for improvement.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you mean between the upper and lower sections? towards the western end?

 

Here is the thing, Edgewater is huge and rarely (4th of July) approaches capacity.  It would be very nice and super kewl, but with all our other needs and issues, I just don't see spending that kind of jack to make a place that is perfectly pleasant a 9 instead of a 7 or 8.  especially when we have so many more pressing issues.

 

 

I tend to agree. I also have a hard envisioning the political environment where "selling off one of our most cherished lakefront gems to greedy developers" (as it would be framed by opponents) wouldn't be met with a huge amount of resistance.  Selling unutilized/abandoned/degraded land is one thing,  selling a nice state park is another.

 

 

But, then again, it is State property so maybe Kasich would be willing to dump it cheap to give out some tax breaks!

 

 

Right! It would be quite a challenge politically. But it's obvious the city and state can't afford to treat the place with the attention it deserves. A private component to the Park could bring in much needed revenues.

 

If developing part of the park were ever on the table, I think the public could be wowed and won over with some pretty pictures.

 

Kasich in 2016 LOL.

I'd support letting the Metroparks administer it, if it would mean the driftwood is cleared once in awhile. Or maybe some sort of volunteer group could handle prettying up the beach.

Re: motorized traffic in the greater Battery Park neighborhood (~W78 to ~W65) and the termination of Father Caruso at W73, Councilman Matt Zone informed me that Father Frascati, which currently terminates at W73 will be extended to W70 upon construction of the W73rd underpass.

My greater priority for neighborhood, aka non-motorized, traffic is to create a neighborhood-scale connection, likely following Herman Ave, between W73 and W69 and a separate connection between W76 and W78 following Battery Park Blvd. Both rights-of-way are currently occupied by vacant land and/or parking lots, which should, in theory make development of this neighborhood connector a more easily realized project.

Does anyone on this board have experience developing such projects? If so, your comments would be appreciated.

Is there a happy medium on the speed limit issue?  Chicago's Lakeshore Drive is 45 mph.  Maybe we can split the difference and go for 40 mph.  Will make the bicyclists, joggers and roller bladers a little less intimidated to use the new roadside paths.  :clap: 

 

 

^In winter LSD is 40mph, a drop off from the 60mph of the Stevenson freeway

One thing to remember about doing anything to the south of the Shoreway is the very active Train Tracks right at the edge of the top of the bluff.  You cant really do anything that will or might undermine the bluff. 

 

And even if you can terrace it out and have picnic areas...I don't imagine too many folks having a picnic 10, 20, 30 feet from the Freight trains and a similar distance from a highway.  Even if the views are amazing.

 

The bike path terraced in is probably the best use......Everything could/would be different if the shoreway looked more like lake or Clifton, then you could develop the Flat and push closer to the road/park ...but that is not what is going to happen.

 

 

 

The geography of this area/project really limits what one can feasibly do. Converting this thoroughfare to a boulevard really doesn't allow for much more development to occur outside of an isolated parcel along the 3 mile strip unless we start talking about developing Edgewater Park ... which is obviously a whole other can of worms. I think that the scaled back project achieves the goal that most people wanted, better access to Edgewater Park. We will have new pedestrian tunnels that will connect to the multi purpose trails that already parallel the Shoreway and more street connectivity from the Battery Park neighborhood. Thus, if the route isn't going to a boulevard lined with development, there really is no need to alter the speed limit in my opinion.

 

Baby Steps. I think eventually in the future the time will be right to fully convert this stretch of road to a boulevard lined with appropriate development.

 

 

^ if the blvd. concept is off the table/postponed, I think an immediate benefit could come from actually widening the west shoreway, giving a large shoulder to encourage parking and more direct access (wooden stairways) to the underutilized grassy hillside of the park.

 

Sorry I couldn't find a better image, but this is exactly the same scenario in Cardiff, California. Highway 101 is a very busy freeway with rail alongside of it, and inland access to the beaches is cut off. But they have a wide shoulder area for parallel parking. So there is speedy traffic, but also a safe place to share the road. It is a mecca for cycling and running.

 

 

cardiff

just up the road

Except there is no shortage of parking at Edgewater with the lone exception maybe being the 4th of July.

 

The shoreway has on off ramps directly into the parking lot.  It is not difficult going from driving on the shoreway to parking in edgewater, it is exceedingly easy to do this.

 

As a matter of fact for almost everybody it is quicker and easier to drive to the shoreway and then park at edgewater than it is to walk or bike there...that is being partially  corrected with the new tunnels and the bike path, but the ease of driving into edgewater is unaffected.

Discussion regarding Edgewater Park were moved into a new thread at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,25894.0.html

Update from ODOT announced this past week on the Shoreway says the next phase, 73rd interchange, has been delayed (again) till 2014 start, which means it probably won't finish till 2016.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D12/Documents/6.15.11%20Lakefront%20West%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 

This is a major setback for the residents of Battery Park who've been counting on this interchange for better access, the businesses of Gordon Square, and the residents of the surrounding Edgewater Hill area who've been complaining of cut through traffic.  The side streets of 76th & 74th were not designed to handle all the traffic from Battery Park and this interchange is needed to help handle that. 

 

According to the update the other access points on the Shoreway are supposed to start in 2014 also, including the reconfiguring of the W25th & 28th interchanges.

Sometimes I wonder if they are just waiting for us to drift away or die off. 

 

I have dealt with ODOT as a private developer and when the shoe is on the other foot ODOT has no mercy regarding time delays; ODOT threatened to block off a new roadway to a new area employer of 200+ people if the strict schedule wasn't met.  (Strict schedule is tough to meet when ODOT and/or County civil engineers keep tweaking developers plans and have 30 business days (read: 6 weeks) to do so with their additional comments and with additional tweaks.  Their response usually occurs on the 28th or 29th day.) 

Most of the time involved with undertaking ODOT projects is dictated by the federal Project Development Process and by the availability of funding. The average time for a transportation project go to from idea to completed is 10 years -- and that is assuming funding is available when ODOT wants it. Lately, funding is not available due to declining gas tax revenues, dramatically increasing costs of petroleum-based construction materials and activities, and compliance with the burdensome regulations that folks like ODOT have to follow.

 

If you want to make your head spin, click on this link and review the procedures for a highway (or any federally funded transportation project) to go through the Project Development Process....

 

http://environment.fhwa.dot.gov/projdev/tdmpdo.asp

 

This page shows only a quick overview, so also click on the links at left under:

 

NEPA and

Transportation

Decisionmaking

-Purpose and Need

-Alternatives

-Impacts

-Mitigation

-Interagency

Coordination

-Public Involvement

 

And click on this link:

http://flh.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/manuals/pddm/

To see what often goes into the planning and project development process for a transportation project. Although this is for projects on federal lands, most of these procedures are needed for a project that receives any federal funds and is therefore subject to NEPA.

 

If you think all of this is burdensome, you're right. Compliance with these laws not only slows projects to a crawl, they also can eat up to one-third of a project's cost.

Well, they do like to hold meetings don't they.  It is "a good thing" to be certain of a paycheck on Friday.  If they treat a small private developer (who does not have that automatic deposit paycheck.) with the vicious cycle I referred to above, I can just imagine how Byzantine and "create work/look busy" they can get in their own subculture.  Not impressed with the ten year process; would love to follow them around in a the "A Day in the Life Of" style for those ten years.  Of course, if your name is someone like Les Wexner that process is expedited & the budget appears magically.

They hold meetings because federal law requires public involvement and interagency coordination. And if Wexner provides the funds or tells ODOT to use state funds instead of federal to accelerate the process, which he has, then ODOT doesn't have to tap federal dollars and go through the federal PDP. And you are supposed to be offended by the 10 year timeline, which why I said it.

 

Everything is about the law, process and funding. They get beat up for their bunker mentality which only creates more laws and process, and eats up more funding to strengthen the bunker.

 

People get angry when I tell them why things take so long and cost so much. And I tell them this:  ask your Congressman to streamline NEPA.

Just reviewed the last link:  I suggest on a lot of that purposefully exhaustive list someone learn to use "N/A" (Not Applicable) in filling in the blanks and move on.  During the ten years of meetings did anyone speak up from the back of the room in the case of the Inner belt (This example used for illustrative purposes only, so not off topic.) and ask "By the by, do we have site control (purchase/lease agreement) for the CSX land? 

Only Congress can change that long list. And it was NS, not CSX, that said ODOT's planned easements weren't as sufficient as they had been in the past.

Wexner didn't contribute that big an amount or percentage, but ODOT pretty much contributed 100% of that year's capital improvement budget to the Easton interchange.   

NS = ?

Norfolk Southern

There is a house on the west side of 69th right at Herman Ave.

 

Re: motorized traffic in the greater Battery Park neighborhood (~W78 to ~W65) and the termination of Father Caruso at W73, Councilman Matt Zone informed me that Father Frascati, which currently terminates at W73 will be extended to W70 upon construction of the W73rd underpass.

My greater priority for neighborhood, aka non-motorized, traffic is to create a neighborhood-scale connection, likely following Herman Ave, between W73 and W69 and a separate connection between W76 and W78 following Battery Park Blvd. Both rights-of-way are currently occupied by vacant land and/or parking lots, which should, in theory make development of this neighborhood connector a more easily realized project. Does anyone on this board have experience developing such projects? If so, your comments would be appreciated.

Technical error on the train name in an example is minor, but what is major is the point that an important and expensive issue was on the table after construction start with so much planning involved. 

Is that an off-shoot of the Norfolk and Way Rail Line?  They seem to have a can't do attitude!  :wink2:

Technical error on the train name in an example is minor, but what is major is the point that an important and expensive issue was on the table after construction start with so much planning involved. 

 

You missed what I said. NS changed the rules on ODOT. Why? Because they could.

 

And, you seem to be a very angry and impatient person who is more interested in venting than understanding. That doesn't mean you have to like it, but in order to change it or avoid it, you have to understand. I am trying to help you understand it. If you want to understand more, let me know. Otherwise I am done with this conversation.

 

 

Is that an off-shoot of the Norfolk and Way Rail Line?  They seem to have a can't do attitude!  :wink2:

 

You lost me on that one.

Say it really fast.

Cute. Those who work for NS sometimes call it Nazi Southern because they are very strict.

 

Anyway, back to the topic........

Interesting, I was just going to say something similar to you and that we weren't going to solve anything here.  But, regarding, again, the example:  If you have lots of time to plan and during that period you have (or should have) a written binding agreements with all parties, it should be pretty difficult for one party to "change the rules".  That is if you were minding the store/doing your job. 

 

By the way, I will not get personal in a discussion like this, but take down your psych shingle regarding me. 

^In winter LSD is 40mph, a drop off from the 60mph of the Stevenson freeway

 

It's 40 all year in some stretches... But anyone that actually drives 40 mph on LSD is probably on said substance.

 

I drive twice a week on it from its start at Hollywood to I-55 and get passed - going 60 - regularly.

To be fair, the cpd is constantly out ticketing.

 

 

 

By the way, I will not get personal in a discussion like this, but take down your psych shingle regarding me. 

 

Except you just got personal. :) I am what I am and this is what I do. So if you don't like it, stay away from me.

 

So...... Please get back on topic!

Whatever happened to the pedestrian tunnels? Last year they installed these really nice white lampposts at the tunnel just past the Clifton/Lake entrance and it looked like all the pavement was set and all that was needed was a little grass landscaping. It now appears that the lampposts have been removed recently and I've seen little if any work on this tunnel for most the spring.

Pedestrian tunnels are still in progress, you can walk through the one at Dons Lightouse.  They installed the wrong light poles and have install a different style.

 

They still have some finish grading and landscaping to do.

^

Odd. Those lampposts were installed last fall, I swear they just took them down in the past week or two, perhaps Restoration Hardware has a 270 day return policy. They were really nice looking lampposts too, it'll be interesting to see what the "correct" ones look like.

Update from ODOT announced this past week on the Shoreway says the next phase, 73rd interchange, has been delayed (again) till 2014 start, which means it probably won't finish till 2016.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D12/Documents/6.15.11%20Lakefront%20West%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 

This is a major setback for the residents of Battery Park who've been counting on this interchange for better access, the businesses of Gordon Square, and the residents of the surrounding Edgewater Hill area who've been complaining of cut through traffic.  The side streets of 76th & 74th were not designed to handle all the traffic from Battery Park and this interchange is needed to help handle that. 

 

According to the update the other access points on the Shoreway are supposed to start in 2014 also, including the reconfiguring of the W25th & 28th interchanges.

 

F*ck.  :(

 

I find this most displeasing.

Update from ODOT announced this past week on the Shoreway says the next phase, 73rd interchange, has been delayed (again) till 2014 start, which means it probably won't finish till 2016.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D12/Documents/6.15.11%20Lakefront%20West%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 

This is a major setback for the residents of Battery Park who've been counting on this interchange for better access, the businesses of Gordon Square, and the residents of the surrounding Edgewater Hill area who've been complaining of cut through traffic.  The side streets of 76th & 74th were not designed to handle all the traffic from Battery Park and this interchange is needed to help handle that. 

 

According to the update the other access points on the Shoreway are supposed to start in 2014 also, including the reconfiguring of the W25th & 28th interchanges.

 

F*ck.  :(

 

I find this most displeasing.

 

Where is our representation?  Why does it seem like Cleveland and NEOhio always get the shaft on these projects? 

Transportation projects are being scaled back not only statewide, but nationwide....

 

http://www.kmbc.com/r/27704440/detail.html

http://www.drivemi.org/Articles/tabid/68/ID/11932/Lawmakers-introduce-fix-for-Michigans-transportation-funding-crisis.aspx

http://nycapitolnews.com/2011/06/new-york%E2%80%99s-transportation-crisis/

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10315/1102464-147.stm

http://t4america.org/resources/transitfundingcrisis/

http://www.tdtnews.com/story/2011/01/05/71488/

 

Those are mostly Midwest-based transportation news/blog items. Projects are being scaled back until new revenues are identified to replace the dying gas tax and reconstruction of the aging Interstate system which is nearing the end of its structural lifespan. And, of course, no elected representative who seeks re-election wants to raise new revenues, as evidenced by the renewable six-year transportation funding law that had expired two years ago.

Response I received today from ODOT after emailing them my concerns about the continued delay of the project...

 

Mr. Xyz:

 

Thank you for contacting the Ohio Department of Transportation with your questions about the status of the planned connection of West 73rd street and reconfiguration of the interchange.  We understand your frustration in regard to this project not getting under way as quickly as originally anticipated.  This project continues to be a priority for ODOT, but we have encountered many obstacles along the way which have impeded us from moving forward as fast as originally projected.

 

We are currently in the design phase for this large project.  We are actively coordinating with the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency and Norfolk Southern Railroad Corporation to address their complexities and concerns.  We are also currently working with the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District to plan a massive sewer re-location effort which is critical to the project and highly complex in dealing with the size, hydraulics, obtaining right-of-way and complying with environmental regulations. 

 

We ask that you express to the members of your neighborhood that we fully understand the importance of this project to the residents and business owners in your community and we are working as quickly as possible to overcome many obstacles to ensure that this project is done correctly.  We appreciate your patience during this important part of the design process.

 

Jackie Schafer, Public Information Officer

Ohio Department of Transportation

District 12: Serving Cuyahoga, Lake & Geauga Counties

Ph: 216.584.2006

[email protected]

 

As much as I appreciate the timely response, the issues regarding the sewer relocation and railroad coordination are not new.  I'm starting to see how ODOT works, and no real in depth thought has been given to this project at all until now, and they JUST realized the extent of some of these issues.  ODOT may in fact be ready to move forward with the project, but the other players likely are not, including the EPA, NS, and NEORSD.

Update from ODOT announced this past week on the Shoreway says the next phase, 73rd interchange, has been delayed (again) till 2014 start, which means it probably won't finish till 2016.

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D12/Documents/6.15.11%20Lakefront%20West%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 

This is a major setback for the residents of Battery Park who've been counting on this interchange for better access, the businesses of Gordon Square, and the residents of the surrounding Edgewater Hill area who've been complaining of cut through traffic.  The side streets of 76th & 74th were not designed to handle all the traffic from Battery Park and this interchange is needed to help handle that. 

 

According to the update the other access points on the Shoreway are supposed to start in 2014 also, including the reconfiguring of the W25th & 28th interchanges.

 

ODOT and bad news often go hand in hand.