I heard there was 250 people there?

 

NOACA Director Howard Maier recently spoke at a Geauga County Tea Party meeting where they pretty much surmised he was a tool used by and for the federal funding system. But while there, these folks expressed great hatred for using any of their federal tax dollars for bike lanes. Consider that most of the top people in Ohio's government (regardless of party) for the past 40 years are from exurban and rural parts of Ohio. This is why ODOT has no statutory or funding ability to undertake the kinds of inclusive (of peds, bikes and transit) road projects that urbanized areas like Cleveland want. The fact that ODOT has been doing it in an exclusionary way for so long is why ODOT has little interest of trying anything else.

 

So when Howard Maier was reminded that there was an opposing force to Geauga County's tea baggers who turned out last night at the Ohio City church, he seemed to scoff that it was only Cleveland city officials who were there. I'm surprised they were able to get 250 city employees to turn out at this meeting. :-P But NOACA tends to scoff at the public sometimes, except apparently when they're out in Geauga County, living in Mcmansions and giving Lexus' to each other for Christmas.

tea baggers?  250 city employees?  What?

 

Yes there was easily 250 people there, big contingent of bike enthusiasts, but also neighborhood members from the Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway & Clifton/Edgewater.

 

Councilmen Zone, Cimperman & Westbrook were all there along with Ken Sillman, Chris Warren from Mayor's office, Mike Skindell & some lady from Kucinich's office.  Someone commented that the Cleveland business community ranked the Shoreway project as the #1 transportation project priority behind the Innerbelt bridge, but they apparently have no sway with the TRAC members and apparently there is nobody on this board from the Cleveland area.  Apparently there was but they were dismissed after not attending meetings.  Unbelievable.  Alot of underlying comments indicating "they don't like us" meaning Columbus doesn't want to help Cleveland's urban projects.  But the more details come out, it seems like a lot of missed opportunities from Cleveland leaders to make sure this project, which everyone agrees is so vital, is not getting done.

Everyone does not agree that this project is vital.  A lot of locals are against it, though not strongly enough to attend a meeting and argue their point.  ODOT's doing a good job of that already... so we don't need to.  I think if it were made clear that new interchanges and bike paths were the extent of it, that might fly.  But the notion of a full "boulevard conversion" is not nearly as popular as its proponents seem to believe.  Time for a rebranding, perhaps.  How about "West Shoreway Upgrade Package?"  Everyone likes upgrades. 

tea baggers?  250 city employees?  What?

 

The Geauga County tea party thinks federal funding of bike paths is pointless. Their fellow taxpayers who spoke up last night in support of bike paths disagree (but perhaps Geauga County tea baggers support the continued use of federal tax dollars to add horse & buggy lanes in their Amish Country? Maybe that's something urbanites should oppose?)

 

And please note the :-P after the 250 city employees. That is an inference of sarcasm, humor, light-heartedness, etc. to make fun of Howard Maier's inference that city officials orchestrated the meeting in Ohio City. So that must mean all 250 people at that meeting where city officials. Try to keep up with me, OK? :-P

 

Everyone does not agree that this project is vital.  A lot of locals are against it, though not strongly enough to attend a meeting and argue their point.

 

Ah yes, the silent majority. I sure missed you. Where ya been since Nixon desperately conjured you in the face of Vietnam War protests? It didn't work then either.

Nice try, but this particular "silent majority" is mostly liberal urbanists, many of whom love walking and biking.  If this project were framed as a multipurpose path and better access, it would be loved by everyone.  Except the teabaggers of course.  There's no pleasing them.

But most of the people who attended last night were opposing the project because ODOT is stripping out the pedestrian and biking elements. They weren't being silent at all.

 

EDIT: you made it sound like the silent majority was supporting ODOT's position.

327 - you're not a fan of the project, I get it.  What I meant when I said "everyone agrees is so vital" was the councilmen, the mayor, the state congressman, etc...

I'm supportive of the project's current incarnation.  And I think the ghost of prior overreach may be holding it back.  A clear statement that "boulevard conversion" is no longer a live issue might help.  Fix the ramps, add one for 73rd, do the multipurpose path... I don't think anyone opposes those ideas.  But we have too many needs to be tearing up existing assets.  That's the sticking point.  Why not compromise?  Insisting on "boulevard conversion" places the interests of Detroit-Shoreway against those of Edgewater and half of Lakewood.  There's no need for that.  We have the opportunity to add something for the former while taking nothing away from the latter.

We have the opportunity to add something for the former while taking nothing away from the latter.

 

And how would you do that?

By converting the freeway into a boulevard you can recapture a great deal of prime lakefront real estate for development, where now you only have buffer zones for exit ramps.

 

heres a good diagram of what this article is talking about

Yep. It was an awesome plan that hopefully can be revived.

We have the opportunity to add something for the former while taking nothing away from the latter.

 

And how would you do that?

 

By advancing with the more recent scaled-back version of the plan.  Boulevard conversion = No.  Multipurpose path, infrastructure improvements, tunnel renovation, W 73rd ramp construction, W 25th ramp reconstruction = Yes.  Those living south of the shoreway receive multiple benefits, while those living west of it lose nothing.  That's what I call a win/win scenario.

 

I'm not thrilled that our leaders are picking such a huge fight with Columbus over something that doesn't even enjoy broad support locally.  If ODOT wanted to run a freeway straight through Shaker Heights, I could maybe understand having a standoff.  But realistically, alienating state officials to this extent doesn't seem like a wise course of action unless we plan on seceding.  It jeopardizes the less controversial aspects of the shoreway plan as well as lord knows what else in the future.  I know, I know, they drew first blood by pointing out that the original plan could have substantial consequences for nearby residents. 

 

 

With a goal of reconnecting neighborhoods to the lakefront, what do you all think of capping the shoreway from roughly W65 to Lake Ave?  Such a scenario would enable incredible connections between neighborhoods and the lakefront while continuing to expedite car traffic (ODoT  loves that idea).  The only thing in the way of N/S connections to the lakefront is the railroad.  You'd need to construct some pretty wide tunnels under the railroad to take advantage of the expanse offered by a great lawn crossing over the Shoreway.  Any idea on cost for capping such a large swath of roadway?

The cost would be tremendous.  I won't make a number guess, but it's very expensive to cap.

Perhaps a similar comparison could be Seattle's 5.2-acre Freeway Park, the first phase of which cost $24 million in 1976 or $95.5 million today (see: http://www.historicseattle.org/preservationseattle/pendinglandmarks/defaultSEPT06.htm and http://www.seattle.gov/parks/park_detail.asp?ID=312).

 

 

As you can see, it's actually very small -- much smaller than the area from West 65th to near Lake Avenue:

 

 

This project included funding from: 

 

Kings County Forward Thrust bonds, federal and state highway funds, developer R.C. Hedreen who placed his proposed 21-story Park Place building on the western edge of the lot and design a front plaza integrated with the proposed Freeway Park, and the City of Seattle placed its municipal parking garage near the freeway in order to intercept drivers before they got into the city core, hoping to reduce congestion, noise, and air pollution in the downtown.

 

But it's pretty overgrown and had become a crime problem like the overgrown Chester Commons here in Cleveland.

The point is ODOT approved the entire plan, they scored it very high under the previous scoring system.  Now we have a new administration and the Scoring system changed, now it is scored poorly.  There were promises made, and they are not being kept.    Cleveland is the worse city for Access to the water front.  this plan by slowing the shoreway down helps to remove the biggest obstacle to accessing the lakefront.

 

As a biker I have concerns about the way the Cycling community is approaching this, they lament the faxt that the Bike lane is pushed back to phase 3, while ignoring the facts that once the road is converted to a boulevard the road will be accessible to Cyclist to ride legally in the street.  I think once the Conversion is complete trafffic will be reduced enough to convert a lane into a multipurpose trail much like what was done to the Detroit/Superior bridge.  this would be he most cost effective way to make it a reality, because of ODOTs inflexible rules, It dramtically increases the cost to add a multipurpose lane, so much so it would be better to seek funding for it from other sources that would be less rigid in their interpretation of laws.

 

The general problem with this development and people in general, are that the original passion for an issue which is used to bring about change are short lived while the opponents to such change have time to build opposition to any change, and as the original benefits fade from memory, the opponents gain momentum.  It is so hard to maintain support for change especially if the change takes so long to come about.    In class My professor talks about the temporal mismatch between Economic development and politics,  it some times takes and act of God to bring about the change People say they want but their attention spans do not allow for.

 

On the 15th of this month they are organizing a caravan to Columbus to attend the ODOT meeting, the caravan leaves at 7 am from the parking lot behind the Capitol theater.  ODOTs behavior in this issue, the streetscape improvements on clfton, the interbelt bridge, etc, has to be stopped, they really don't care about issue important to the residents of cities, only care about traffic speed and nothing else.  no other part of state government is doing so much to hold ohio back, they must be stopped

Traffic flow will always be an issue on a major commuter route... and barring substantial transit expansion, this will always be a major commuter route.  Why is it so important to put bikes in the same space as cars instead of adding a multipurpose path?  Why is it so important to "access the lake" via crosswalks instead of the tunnels we're already spending so much to renovate?  It seems like beneficial compromises are available here.  I strongly suggest we don't declare war on ODOT over this.  Also please keep in mind that there are adverse local interests as well, before you purport to speak for the entire community.

 

A lot of people living west of the shoreway do not want a boulevard conversion.  It is absolutely unfair for their interests to be disregarded to the extent we're reaching here.  This is not a Cleveland city street... it's a state highway and two federal highways combined.  It belongs to everyone.  It belongs to people in Westlake and Peoria too.  ODOT is not trying to halt progress, prevent cycling, isolate Lake Erie, or impinge upon Battery Park.  Claiming that they are sounds childish.  Refusing to compromise with your neighbors doesn't sound too cool either.  Surely we can work this out.       

327 - please go back & review my comments from the meeting last week.  What you've proposed is essentially what is likely to be built.  The funding is in place for 73rd connection, possibly 25th/28th intersection, and everything else is about 10 yrs out or never.  Sound good to you?  By then, the existing Shoreway pavement will be crumbling, Obama will be in his 4th term, gas powered personal transit will be a thing of the past....  and that landscaped boulevard conversion will make a lot of sense.  So let's take this argument back up in 9.5 yrs, ok?

 

 

It is the same route/highway as Clifton Blvd in Lakewood.  If the people of Westlake and Peoria insisted on changing Clifton into a highway, shouldn't Lakewood have a say?

 

All this project would do would extend Clifton through the entire westside, not just Edgewater/ Lakewood

It is the same route/highway as Clifton Blvd in Lakewood.  If the people of Westlake and Peoria insisted on changing Clifton into a highway, shouldn't Lakewood have a say?

 

All this project would do would extend Clifton through the entire westside, not just Edgewater/ Lakewood

 

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about this, ESPECIALLY UrbanOhio people.  And it seems many of the same people who are against the Opportunity Corridor boulevard are for keeping this road a limited access freeway.  It makes no sense.  An extra 2 or 3 minutes added to a commute from a suburb isn't a game changer.

It is the same route/highway as Clifton Blvd in Lakewood.  If the people of Westlake and Peoria insisted on changing Clifton into a highway, shouldn't Lakewood have a say?

 

All this project would do would extend Clifton through the entire westside, not just Edgewater/ Lakewood

 

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about this, ESPECIALLY UrbanOhio people.  And it seems many of the same people who are against the Opportunity Corridor boulevard are for keeping this road a limited access freeway.  It makes no sense.  An extra 2 or 3 minutes added to a commute from a suburb isn't a game changer.

 

+1

 

also, it was interesting to hear that the shoreway at one time had more than 82,000 vehicles per day.  it is now in the low 30,000s.  A huge decrease in traffic with the same number of lanes, speed limit, etc. 

An extra 2-3 minutes would not bother anyone but that isn't what we're talking about.  For example, a couple months ago inbound shoreway traffic was diverted onto Lake and Detroit because of a fallen tree.  It didn't add 2 or 3 or 10 minutes, it added an hour and a half.  Cars and buses were backed up throughout Edgewater and well into Lakewood.  People living on the south side of Clifton couldn't exit their driveways or sidestreets.  Emergency vehicles have trouble getting around in those conditions too.  Another example: a couple years ago, sewer work reduced the shoreway's capacity by about 50% at the bottleneck.  Traffic backed up throughout Edgewater and well into Lakewood on a daily basis. 

 

That's why people are up in arms... they don't want a honking traffic jam right in front of their house every morning, and they don't want a 5 mile commute to take an hour plus.  Is there no compromise possible?     

327, you're talking about an unforeseen emergency that redirected cars, buses, etc.  The Shoreway was essentially CLOSED with no notice!!!  Of course traffic was backed up!!!  Big difference between that & a 10-15 mph slow down (which probably won't be enforced).  It's ridiculous to draw comparisons between a weather emergency and some planned slight reduction in speed which keeps the same # of lanes...

 

How about the sewer project which closed a lane in both directions right at the Westinghouse curve which didn't impede the flow of traffic whatsoever...  forget it, I can't believe I got sucked into this conversation again.

It is the same route/highway as Clifton Blvd in Lakewood.  If the people of Westlake and Peoria insisted on changing Clifton into a highway, shouldn't Lakewood have a say?

 

All this project would do would extend Clifton through the entire westside, not just Edgewater/ Lakewood

 

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about this, ESPECIALLY UrbanOhio people.  And it seems many of the same people who are against the Opportunity Corridor boulevard are for keeping this road a limited access freeway.  It makes no sense.  An extra 2 or 3 minutes added to a commute from a suburb isn't a game changer.

 

Amen Jeff!

 

I don't understand the negativism on this project?  Since when does anyone on Urban Ohio concern themselves with a commuter in Rocky River or Westlake?  Slow it down.  Perhaps this will add ammo for our friends at All Aboard Ohio for commuter rail via the Lakewood corridor.   

 

I live in the Clifton/Edgewater neighborhood, and I can tell you it won't make a difference.  The traffic already backs up from the Shoreway back into Lakewood at peak times.  As soon as the morning commuters hit the Shoreway it's 75 MPH race to W6th.  But this won't change anything for those of us with the backups already.  If we were concerned we'd sell and move to Avon Lake.  I'd rather be able to walk pleasantly along the multi trail to Edgewater, the boat clubs and points east into downtown.

 

I stand by my assertion that this is ONE game-changing project for the City of Cleveland that can make a difference in the future of our city.  No casino, aquarium or other single project stands to tie together existing rehabbing neighborhoods, bring residents back in the city, and most importantly jump start a vision to reclaim our lakefront from prior mistakes.  We need to do this.

An extra 2-3 minutes would not bother anyone but that isn't what we're talking about.  For example, a couple months ago inbound shoreway traffic was diverted onto Lake and Detroit because of a fallen tree.  It didn't add 2 or 3 or 10 minutes, it added an hour and a half.  Cars and buses were backed up throughout Edgewater and well into Lakewood.  People living on the south side of Clifton couldn't exit their driveways or sidestreets.  Emergency vehicles have trouble getting around in those conditions too.  Another example: a couple years ago, sewer work reduced the shoreway's capacity by about 50% at the bottleneck.  Traffic backed up throughout Edgewater and well into Lakewood on a daily basis. 

 

That's why people are up in arms... they don't want a honking traffic jam right in front of their house every morning, and they don't want a 5 mile commute to take an hour plus.  Is there no compromise possible?     

 

We're talking about a plan to make the shoreway a boulevard, not plopping a tree down the middle of the road by surprise.  How can you even compare the effects of the two?

 

EDIT: Sorry, I see someone else already responded similarly, but I had this page open for a while without refreshing and didn't see it before I posted.

This plan will not redirect traffic from the Shoreway onto a more narrow street with its own traffic, stop lights, numerous street-side businesses, etc. Nor will it replicate the built-environment conditions along Detroit Avenue on the Shoreway. The plan as originally proposed would continue a high-volume six-lane roadway albeit SLIGHTLY slower with several intersections. How many intersections and traffic lights are there along Detroit from Lake Avenue to downtown? 20? 30? How many lanes are there along Detroit Avenue? Four lanes where there is no parking and two lanes where there is?

 

Think for a moment, 327. Do you really believe that the Shoreway project as originally envisioned would replicate the impacts of completely closing the Shoreway's six lanes to all traffic? Why would you even suggest that as a possible outcome?

+1

 

also, it was interesting to hear that the shoreway at one time had more than 82,000 vehicles per day.  it is now in the low 30,000s.  A huge decrease in traffic with the same number of lanes, speed limit, etc. 

 

I was at the public meeting last week, and this point (along with the fact that reducing the speed limit from 50 to 35 adds 75 seconds from Lake/Clifton to downtown) was what finally convinced me that the boulevard conversion per se wouldn't cause a dramatic problem for commuting.

 

It also convinced me that the original plan to add intersections with stoplights wasn't that big of a deal, either.  There were only like four or five intersections planned, and even if you were to hit every light, the trip would be much less impeded than the current trip down Detroit with a gazillion lights and narrower ROW.

 

Basically, we'd be trading a freeway (which may have been needed in the 40s or 50s, when the Shoreway was built as such,) for an expressway (even with the lights.)

 

EDIT:  I see KJP made the same basic point in his post.

This plan will not redirect traffic from the Shoreway onto a more narrow street with its own traffic, stop lights, numerous street-side businesses, etc. Nor will it replicate the built-environment conditions along Detroit Avenue on the Shoreway. The plan as originally proposed would continue a high-volume six-lane roadway albeit SLIGHTLY slower with several intersections. How many intersections and traffic lights are there along Detroit from Lake Avenue to downtown? 20? 30? How many lanes are there along Detroit Avenue? Four lanes where there is no parking and two lanes where there is?

 

Think for a moment, 327. Do you really believe that the Shoreway project as originally envisioned would replicate the impacts of completely closing the Shoreway's six lanes to all traffic? Why would you even suggest that as a possible outcome?

 

 

the intersections which would have performed the primary function of traffic calming, were removed by ODOT 3 years ago, due to "congestion"

 

the opposition to this project are NIMBY.  the question is how much more traffic will move to I90 after the opening of the second inner belt bridge opens and how much traffic will be able to divert to I90.

 

The new bridge will eliminate the bottleneck that is the ramp from I90 west to the central artery.  in a few years there will be Two lanes from I90 west onto the bridge and 3 lanes from I71 onto the bridge, with no merge between I90 and I71.

 

Following the theory of Induced Traffic, means that slowing the Shoreway down could further reduce Traffic on the Shore way, making more people detour to I90 instead. either way the shore way as configured is not needed, according to NOACA the Shore way only carries 5000-10,000 more traffic than Chester which is a  boulevard, that is 15% to 30% more than the Freeway, and it has ~15 stop lights between UC and downtown, the nrw shore way would have NO stop lights.

 

ODOT congestion estimates are notoriously Questionable.

Think for a moment, 327. Do you really believe that the Shoreway project as originally envisioned would replicate the impacts of completely closing the Shoreway's six lanes to all traffic? Why would you even suggest that as a possible outcome?

 

We're talking about a plan to make the shoreway a boulevard, not plopping a tree down the middle of the road by surprise.  How can you even compare the effects of the two?

 

Detroit gets virtually no commuter traffic on a normal day so it was largely a substitution of one road for another.  An identical road to the proposed boulevard?  Of course not, but keep in mind that once the backup has commenced, "traffic calming" measures like stoplights and speed limits don't count for much.  People are ignoring intersections and moving 5 mph if at all.  The conduit is overwhelmed at that point, and the only solution is for cars to stop showing up at the back of the line, because capacity is a fixed constant.  Similar effects are observable downtown after special events.

 

Even on the worst days, backups rarely extend west beyond Bunts Road because it provides spillover to 90.  So does 117th, but that's the last one till West Boulevard, which serves poorly as a cut-through.  So for all those claiming that these concerns carry no weight because they belong to people in Rocky River (really?), the brunt of this traffic problem would be felt in Edgewater, which is nominally within the city of Cleveland.  For Lakewood to be affected at all, Edgewater must first be slammed from end to end.  I really don't see this as a city vs suburb issue, and I really don't think we get far by stoking city vs suburb issues anyway.  Or Cleveland vs ODOT issues.

 

The fact that people would even consider pushing this at the same time as the innerbelt project suggests that we're throwing logistical concerns out the window, so no quantity of actual traffic nightmares on this route-- which are otherwise rare in Cleveland-- are likely to be persuasive.  This has become an us vs them issue driven by emotions.  That doesn't help our community, nor does it help the image of the urbanist movement in general. 

 

We should be seeking common ground with those who don't share our philosophy.  We should be identifying approaches that can win hearts and minds, projects that can make our point without raising new counterpoints.  Above all, we should avoid setting up conflicts between Cleveland neighborhoods, or between the city and adjacent communities.

 

       

 

 

We should be seeking common ground with those who don't share our philosophy.  We should be identifying approaches that can win hearts and minds, projects that can make our point without raising new counterpoints.  Above all, we should avoid setting up conflicts between Cleveland neighborhoods, or between the city and adjacent communities.

 

       

 

To the contrary, this project would bring together neighborhoods in a much-needed fashion.  Ohio City, Gordon Square and Clifton/Baltic/Edgewater all stand to benefit from this connection.  I've been living in or around downtown since the early 1990's and one of my biggest complaints in Cleveland is the lack of connection between these neighborhoods.  To this day there has been growth en our urban pioneer enclaves (like Ohio City, Tremont and more recently, Gordon Square).  But they remain isolated pockets, never reaching out to touch each other.  The Shoreway conversion is an amazing opportunity to connect Downtown to Ohio City to Gordon Square to Clifton/Edgewater (and each of the aforementioned to the Lakefront as well).  To this end I say is our best possible "common ground."

The fact that people would even consider pushing this at the same time as the innerbelt project suggests that we're throwing logistical concerns out the window, so no quantity of actual traffic nightmares on this route-- which are otherwise rare in Cleveland-- are likely to be persuasive.  This has become an us vs them issue driven by emotions.  That doesn't help our community, nor does it help the image of the urbanist movement in general. 

 

So many false statements here....

 

If the Shoreway boulevard conversion was approved tomorrow, we wouldn't see construction for another 3 years at the earliest.  Innerbelt will be wrapped up by then.  It takes that long to prepare biddable actual construction plans, put it out to bid, award contracts, etc.

 

Us vs them?  Driven by emotion?  This project has been ranked as the #1 transportation priority behind the Innerbelt bridge by local business community. 

 

doesn't help the image of the urbanist movement?  Please step down from your soapbox before you fall & hurt yourself...

 

Please step down from your soapbox before you fall & hurt yourself...

:lol:

Soap box?  I have three stacked up, and an impeccable sense of balance.

How much of the Shoreway project, in any form (whether still viable or dead) is "shovel ready?"

 

It would seem to me that ODOT should at least have a plan for the W25th/W28th St ramps as they definitely qualify as a safety hazard.

How much of the Shoreway project, in any form (whether still viable or dead) is "shovel ready?"

 

It would seem to me that ODOT should at least have a plan for the W25th/W28th St ramps as they definitely qualify as a safety hazard.

 

ODOT and the city have a high level design for the entire project.  the estimates to complete that project (no traffic lights, pedestrian tunnels, a w73 tunnel, w25/28 reconfiguration, multipurpose path, and a tree lined median, again with no true intersections, just "right on, right off" ramps) are now $104 million.  The city has $49.8 million.

 

So, the city started to phase this project even further, with these being the proposed phases:

Phase I - 2 pedestrian tunnels (under construction, but facing serious delays), and the west 73 interchange, which has almost doubled in price;

Phase II - rebuild entire roadway to make it "feel like a boulevard" even though there are no sidewalks, intersections, or multipurpose trails included.  This phase is estimated at around $35 million, and this is what the city recent submitted to the TRAC process for additional funding, which scored very low;

Phase III - possibly something at w25/28, and the addition on multipurpose paths.  This phase in unfunded and the city isn't currently seeking funding for these elements.

 

To my knowledge, nothing is shovel ready, with the most detailed (but not final) engineering work having been done on w73 interchange.

Thanks for that quick rundown urbanlife!

 

Interesting that the ramp reconfiguration, which should be high on everyone's lists, don't even appear.

 

Even on the worst days, backups rarely extend west beyond Bunts Road because it provides spillover to 90.  So does 117th, but that's the last one till West Boulevard, which serves poorly as a cut-through.  So for all those claiming that these concerns carry no weight because they belong to people in Rocky River (really?), the brunt of this traffic problem would be felt in Edgewater, which is nominally within the city of Cleveland.  For Lakewood to be affected at all, Edgewater must first be slammed from end to end.  I really don't see this as a city vs suburb issue, and I really don't think we get far by stoking city vs suburb issues anyway.  Or Cleveland vs ODOT issues.

 

Do you have traffic counts for Clifton/Shoreway?  I'd be interested to see how much traffic is gained at the Shoreway entrance from Lake Ave., Edgewater Dr., and West Blvd.

 

I still can't imagine that traffic would stack through Edgewater due to lights beyond West Blvd.  If the Shoreway were converted to have traffic lights, that would have no effect on the current situation at West Blvd. and W. 117th unless traffic backed up from lights on the Shoreway (and I'd assume the first one would be W. 73rd in that scenario).  Also, since W. 73rd is not a major through route, there would be no need to have the light stay red for the Shoreway nearly as long as West Blvd. and W. 117th.  I just don't see the traffic backing up from that light (or any beyond it, especially if they're timed like the ones on Carnegie) all the way to West Blvd. or even to Lake Ave. (the distance from West Blvd. to W. 117th is about the same as from Lake Ave. and Clifton to W. 73rd.)

 

Barring major traffic backups, the lights should be able to be timed so that even at its busiest time, 3 solid lanes of traffic can flow at 35 MPH without hitting a light all the way from West Blvd. to downtown for every time that light turns green, meaning the only effect on traffic would be the speed limit change, not the addition of traffic lights.  This is pretty much how Carnegie works.  Once you pass the MLK heading westbound in the morning, traffic does not stop until E. 55th Street, and often times not until E. 30th St., thanks to the timing of the lights.

This is somewhat related to the West Shoreway, but moreso to Edgewater Park, but I saw crews working along the Shoreway FINALLY cleaning up storm debris from last summer, putting up chain-link fences and other tidying up duties. They appeared to be state workers, but there were city crews working along the Shoeway the week before putting up snow fences.

So, the city started to phase this project even further, with these being the proposed phases:

Phase I - 2 pedestrian tunnels (under construction, but facing serious delays), and the west 73 interchange, which has almost doubled in price;

Phase II - rebuild entire roadway to make it "feel like a boulevard" even though there are no sidewalks, intersections, or multipurpose trails included.  This phase is estimated at around $35 million, and this is what the city recent submitted to the TRAC process for additional funding, which scored very low;

Phase III - possibly something at w25/28, and the addition on multipurpose paths.  This phase in unfunded and the city isn't currently seeking funding for these elements.

 

To my knowledge, nothing is shovel ready, with the most detailed (but not final) engineering work having been done on w73 interchange.

 

Correct, nothing is shovel ready on this project and I think they are taking a much closer look at the railroad portion since they are having such a problem with soil conditions at the 76th tunnel. 

 

ODOT needs to update the "fact sheet" for this project, because it's already out of date with what they published this summer.  The fact sheet they have posted on the project website indicates that 25th/28th work is part of Phase 1C.  http://www.dot.state.oh.us/districts/D12/Documents/6.15.11%20Lakefront%20West%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 

I emailed the ODOT office back this summer for an update on the 73rd connection (when they announced it was being delayed another 2 years) and the response indicated there was ALOT of work to do with the railroad bridge, the mainline sewer relocation, and acquiring the property necessary to make this connection (some type of trucking/warehouse) at the corner of 73rd & Caruso.  I expect the price for this work will jump again because they just don't fully know what the work consists of yet.

$35 million to make it "feel like a boulevard" with no functional improvements?  Crazy.  Why not use that money on the multipurpose trail instead, so that pedestrians and cyclists can gain something from the expenditure?  How could the W25th ramp have no funding if $35 million is to be spent meaninglessly?

I'm sorry that you think improved pedestrian and bicycle access from the Detroit-Shoreway neighborhood to this region's greatest natural asset is not a functional improvement. Furthermore development along a boulevard is more likely to happen than development along a highway designed similar to an interstate.

$35 million to make it "feel like a boulevard" with no functional improvements?  Crazy.  Why not use that money on the multipurpose trail instead, so that pedestrians and cyclists can gain something from the expenditure?  How could the W25th ramp have no funding if $35 million is to be spent meaninglessly?

I actually have sympathy for this view.  Doing it not quite halfway, and then leaving it, is a worse option, in my opinion, than doing nothing.

Now, if it was a step in a long range plan (with milestones and agreements from ODOT) then fine.

 

What I want is the original version that ODOT grudingly agreed to under Mayor Campbell.

Funding needed for redevelopment of downtown

ODOT's advisory committee is considering proposal

 

 

(Cleveland)- City of Cleveland officials are traveling to Columbus this week to help get funding for the West Shoreway project.

 

Cleveland’s Chief Regional Development Director Chris Warren tells WTAM’S Bill Wills the Ohio Department of Transportation’s advisory committee is ranking competing proposals through the state and he wants to make sure Cleveland gets the additional funding.

 

Up to $30 million is needed for the lakefront development to make traffic improvements, bicycle and a pedestrian trail to link Edgewater to downtown.

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson unveiled plan a few weeks ago for redevelopment of the lakefront downtown.

 

"This plan will redefine Cleveland as a city that emanates from Lake Erie whether through commercial maritime activity and business opportunities or through public access for recreation and entertainment," says Jackson."We will transform Cleveland into a city connected to its lakefront all the opportunities and amenities it can afford."

 

 

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=9499363

I'm sorry that you think improved pedestrian and bicycle access from the Detroit-Shoreway neighborhood to this region's greatest natural asset is not a functional improvement. Furthermore development along a boulevard is more likely to happen than development along a highway designed similar to an interstate.

 

Improved access would be an improvement, but the current TRAC application for phase II doesn't include any improved pedestrian access.  The only access improved is the pedestrian tunnels, currently under construction and unsuable for the 2d year, and the proposed interchange at w73 which is being funded out of the original 49.8 million grant from a few years ago.

 

This project has shifted quite a bit, but if you review the most recent plans that the city is working from, there is no additional land that is opened up to development and the "boulevard" looks much like the existing highway - except that the whole thing is completely rebuilt with trees added down the middle.  There are no sidewalks added, no signalized intersections added, and no multi-purpose path added.  So, the $35 million funds only rebuilding the entire stretch of roadway to feel like a boulevard, without many of the critical elements that actually make it a boulevard - including opening additional land for development.

Funding needed for redevelopment of downtown

ODOT's advisory committee is considering proposal

 

 

(Cleveland)- City of Cleveland officials are traveling to Columbus this week to help get funding for the West Shoreway project.

 

Cleveland’s Chief Regional Development Director Chris Warren tells WTAM’S Bill Wills the Ohio Department of Transportation’s advisory committee is ranking competing proposals through the state and he wants to make sure Cleveland gets the additional funding.

 

Up to $30 million is needed for the lakefront development to make traffic improvements, bicycle and a pedestrian trail to link Edgewater to downtown.

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson unveiled plan a few weeks ago for redevelopment of the lakefront downtown.

 

"This plan will redefine Cleveland as a city that emanates from Lake Erie whether through commercial maritime activity and business opportunities or through public access for recreation and entertainment," says Jackson."We will transform Cleveland into a city connected to its lakefront all the opportunities and amenities it can afford."

 

 

http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=9499363

 

Good news.  I wonder what city "officials" are making the journey?

there is no additional land that is opened up to development...  There are no sidewalks added, no signalized intersections added, and no multi-purpose path added.

 

And there never will be any of that so long as it stays a limited access 50 mph freeway...

there is no additional land that is opened up to development...  There are no sidewalks added, no signalized intersections added, and no multi-purpose path added.

 

And there never will be any of that so long as it stays a limited access 50 mph freeway...

 

I don't understand the obsession with development in a park area anyway.  The idea is to open up this great asset to the development that is already occurring nearby or is in the works in the neighborhoods adjoining the shoreway route.    This is Cleveland--a city with a continuing population decline and plenty of vacant/open space.  Just up the bluff there are plenty of vacant lots and abandoned warehouses ripe for development.  Conversion to a boulevard and improving access is about those places--not putting new commercial development inside Edgewater park.

there is no additional land that is opened up to development...  There are no sidewalks added, no signalized intersections added, and no multi-purpose path added.

 

And there never will be any of that so long as it stays a limited access 50 mph freeway...

 

yes, according to ODOT.  the thing is, there is nothing preventing ODOT and the city from making this a 35 mph roadway now - with no improvements whatsoever.  this would require legislative or ODOT policy change (depending on who you believe), but it is the same process that has to be followed after the boulevard is reconstructed. 

 

i guess it is just a question of priorities, imo, with constrained budgets, you get the speed limit reduced now and build bicycle and pedestrian access first.  Otherwise bicycle and pedestrian access will become a phase iv part of the project, a project that started with just 1 phase.

 

there is no additional land that is opened up to development...  There are no sidewalks added, no signalized intersections added, and no multi-purpose path added.

 

And there never will be any of that so long as it stays a limited access 50 mph freeway...

 

I don't understand the obsession with development in a park area anyway.  The idea is to open up this great asset to the development that is already occurring nearby or is in the works in the neighborhoods adjoining the shoreway route.    This is Cleveland--a city with a continuing population decline and plenty of vacant/open space.  Just up the bluff there are plenty of vacant lots and abandoned warehouses ripe for development.  Conversion to a boulevard and improving access is about those places--not putting new commercial development inside Edgewater park.

 

Thank You!