Wanting to combine hydrogen fuel threads into one for simplicity.

 

New technique creates cheap, abundant hydrogen: report

AFP, November 12, 2007

 

CHICAGO (AFP) - US researchers have developed a method of producing hydrogen gas from biodegradable organic material, potentially providing an abundant source of this clean-burning fuel, according to a study released Monday.

^How about cheap, abundant hydrogen-powered electrical utilities? I'm still waiting for my plug-in car.

 

Hydrogen fuel plant awarded to Yeager

Facility to produce gas, refuel vehicles

By Rick Steelhammer, Charleston Gazette, December 4, 2008

 

CHARLESTON, W.Va. - The U.S. Department of Energy has selected Yeager Airport as the site for a small hydrogen fuel production plant and vehicle fueling station.

 

The airport's governing board approved a lease agreement on Wednesday to get the demonstration project up and running within the next two years.

 

[snipped the remainder.]

"Basically, they will make hydrogen fuel by shooting electricity through water," Atkinson said. "It's a very clean fuel. The only byproduct of using hydrogen as a fuel is water."

 

However, where will the electricity come from?  Likely coal burning power plants.  Monetarily it may be cheaper, but the compound cost is far greater.

And running automobiles on petroleum-based fuels is far cleaner than hydrogen! (rolls eyes)

 

You need to start somewhere. Because 50% of the U.S.'s electricity is derived from coal (unfortunately), that is most likely the source of electricity for the station. But compare it to...

 

1) The existing gasoline stations that require electricity to operate;

2) The tanker trucks that use petroleum-based fuels to ship gasoline from the refineries to the stations;

3) The refineries that use massive amounts of electricity to refine oil (in comparison to a teeny, tiny hydrogen fueling station);

4) The off-shore oil platforms...

 

I think you get the picture.

I don't understand the fascination with hydrogen cars.  If you're going to make hydrogen using electricity, why not just have pure electric vehicles?  Or if you're getting the hydrogen from a non-renewable source, than you're not really doing anything to help our environment.

Do I have to repeat my post?

 

Do you realize just how inefficient and energy-consuming off-shore platforms are? Or refineries? Or the tanker trucks? Or even the gasoline stations?

 

We are talking about a single pump that uses a minimal amount of electricity via electrolysis (without pollution) that costs only cents per KW/H. Entirely clean on its end; yes, it may use power from a coal-fired power plant, but so do refineries, gasoline stations... you get my point.

My understanding is that the catalyzing of hydrogen requires as much energy as it produces. Seems to be a net energy loser. Also hydrogen is incredibly corrosive -- not good for a very explosive gas.

I'm not coming down on one side or the other in the hydrogen debate, but I thought I would just post the following to contribute to the discussion: 

 

From the Rocky Mountain Institute:

Twenty Hydrogen Myths. 

http://www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Energy/E03-05_20HydrogenMyths.pdf

 

The one thing that RMI hasn't addressed is the availability of platinum, which is necessary for making fuel cells. 

 

Personally, I think fuel cells will be used, but primarily in specialty vehicles, fleets, transit vehicles, locomotives, etc, not as a ubiquitous replacement for all of our personal automobiles.  I see a future with a lot less driving and not much that we can do to change it, but that's just my opinion. 

I don't understand the fascination with hydrogen cars. If you're going to make hydrogen using electricity, why not just have pure electric vehicles? Or if you're getting the hydrogen from a non-renewable source, than you're not really doing anything to help our environment.

 

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying.  Why go through three power sources (coal>electricity>hydrogen) when you can go through two?  Plus, the process of just converting burned coal to electricity obviously requires water, but the result would be much cheaper.

My understanding is that the catalyzing of hydrogen requires as much energy as it produces. Seems to be a net energy loser. Also hydrogen is incredibly corrosive -- not good for a very explosive gas.

 

I didn't know that it was corrosive, but that's a good point.  As far the energy requirement, that's why I feel that it isn't a viable widespread solution.  Due to its explosive nature, I'm not very comfortable with what might happen in a vehicular accident either.

I didn't know that it was corrosive, but that's a good point.  As far the energy requirement, that's why I feel that it isn't a viable widespread solution.  Due to its explosive nature, I'm not very comfortable with what might happen in a vehicular accident either.

 

I hadn't thought about the corrosiveness, either, but it stands to reason. Hydrogen is chemically very active, explaining why very little free hydrogen exists in Earth's atmosphere. It's almost always bound with other elements. That means that storage and handling would have to be via corrosion-resistant materials with enough tensile strength to work at high pressures.

 

Regarding vehicle accidents, no combustible gas or liquid is truly safe, but hydrogen probably is safer than propane or gasoline because it is lighter than air and diffuses upward very quickly when released outdoors. Propane and gasoline vapor are heavier than air and spread along the ground, accumulating in low spots like sewers and basements until they find an ignition source. When the vapor cloud ignites, it blows up spaces it has filled and burns everything/everyone it touches. Diesel fuel is probably the safest motor-vehicle fuel in case of accidents because at normal temperatures it doesn't release enough vapor to easily be ignited.

Regarding vehicle accidents, no combustible gas or liquid is truly safe, but hydrogen probably is safer than propane or gasoline because it is lighter than air and diffuses upward very quickly when released outdoors.

 

It also doesn't burn as hot as natural gas, propane, or gasoline.

 

BTW, I've read the 20 Hydrogen Myths paper I posted a few posts up. I encourage others to do so too.  RMI makes some valid points.