"This is the urban version of The McMansion Estates at Pine-Studded Deer Crossings Amongst the Whippoorwills."

 

That may be the greatest subdivision name in history. LOL

"This is the urban version of The McMansion Estates at Pine-Studded Deer Crossings Amongst the Whippoorwills."

 

 

 

Reminds me of a girl I used to date

 

"This is the urban version of The McMansion Estates at Pine-Studded Deer Crossings Amongst the Whippoorwills."

 

 

 

Reminds me of a girl I used to date

 

 

I want to ask, as inquiring minds want to know...but I know its no this story will not end well.  he he he (giggles)

"This is the urban version of The McMansion Estates at Pine-Studded Deer Crossings Amongst the Whippoorwills."

 

That may be the greatest subdivision name in history. LOL

 

Thanks! We aims to please through intended over-exaggerations.

 

I didn't know that.  The more you know!

 

These images are from before the Pennsylvania Railroad line was elevated through the increasingly congested intersection and near-east side. It was amazing nexus of streets, carriages, pedestrians, streetcars, heavy freight trains and passenger trains -- including the PRR's busiest railroad station in Cleveland served by 20+ passenger trains a day during its peak. The railroad line was elevated in 1915 but the train station building seen in these picture remained at street level with a tunnel (still visible today) under the tracks and stairwells to track level.

 

Note this first postcard, with a view west from the railroad tracks, refers to the area as "Penn Square"....

 

 

 

You can see the railroad crossing watchman's tower at right, where a guard was posted by the railroad to oversee the busy intersection and manually lower gates across the streets and sidewalks to protect street traffic from getting hit by passing trains. In fact the sidewalk gate at left appears to be down, so either there is a train coming or the guard forgot about the gate....

 

 

 

One last view of the intersection. If you couldn't see the station is visible at right, you'd never know a busy railroad with up to 90 trains a day linking Cleveland with Hudson where it split to Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington and New York, and to Columbus, Cincinnati and St. Louis crossed here....

 

Thanks for the postcard pictures.  Are any of the buildings from the postcards still visible today?  The second one especially shows how completely different Cleveland used to be...

Thanks for the postcard pictures.  Are any of the buildings from the postcards still visible today?  The second one especially shows how completely different Cleveland used to be...

 

Nope. All gone, even all the buildings in this "more recent" picture taken in 1943 are gone....

 

Bigger image....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-u0NGCri1NYE/TkViGuYq9xI/AAAAAAAADq8/-Oa77XCV9to/s1600/E55-Euclid%2B1943.JPG

 

Pls note mural shown in Buffalo Main Street photo - same design as one covering facade of hulk just to west of Dunham Tavern....

 

http://www.buffalorising.com/2011/12/returning-cars-to-main-street-and-the-cleveland-brt.html

 

I read last week there's some proposal in the offing for some entity to purchase this monstrosity, but I haven't seen any more information. it was to be discussed at a meeting.  What does anyone know about this?  Who's interested in purchasing that former buiding and what do they propose to do with it or replace it with?

 

Anything going on with the property immediately to the east of Dunham where the sign announces a restoration and seeks tenants? I've seen no action whatsoever. :yap:

^A few of the midtown articles over the last year have mentioned the possibility that the developers behind the Baker Electric Bldg (Cumberland/Dick Pace I think) were thinking about acquiring and redeveloping that shell next to Dunham for more lab/tech space.  I really, really hope it happens.  The fact that the Baker project is 100% leased is certainly helpful.

I went by on the HealthLine quickly this a.m., but it looks like threatened Church of the Transfiguration, adjoining former Cleveland Play House property now owned by Clinic, now sports "Available" sign. Does anyone know anything about this?

:clap:

Maybe someone was working on that light sculpture near E. 14th, as someone suggested, but now none of the lights work....  :wink:

Cross post from the Ohio: Historic Preservation Tax Credit News & Discussion

 

Northeast Ohio projects win bulk of $14 million in state tax credit awards for historic buildings

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/northeast_ohio_projects_win_bu.html

 

Among the CLE winners:

 

Victory Building on Euclid (conversion to tech office space)

 

 

 

Northeast Ohio projects win bulk of $14 million in state tax credit awards for historic buildings.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/northeast_ohio_projects_win_bu.html

 

 

Northeast Ohio projects won $11.4 million - roughly 77 percent - of the awards announced today. The largest winner is the long-dormant Victory Building in Cleveland's Midtown neighborhood, where real estate broker Scott Garson plans to turn dark space into offices for high-tech companies.

 

 

 

That building in particular really should be apartments and retail.  The change of plans is kind of a shame, and I wish those tax credits were predicated on keeping the original residential plan in place.

Frequent browser, infrequent poster.  I do have something to pass on that hopefully has not yet been discussed.  I spoke to someone today who confirmed that Midtown Cleveland (the CDC) is moving into the Agora.  Also in that space will be a restaurant run by the folks who operate Umami Moto (the food truck).  Just an fyi...

Thanks for sharing!

RTA agrees to sell blighted building at 6611 Euclid Ave.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/post_94.html

 

Dick Pace believes he can renovate the seven-story brick building to house small companies. The president of Cumberland Development LLC, Pace turned the nearby Baker Electric Building into a successful business incubator. Now he aims to tackle a building that nearby property owners and investors describe as the biggest eyesore on the block.

 

 

^Looks like he still needs to secure financing to make this happen.

 

Like suggested in the article, I don't care how much money is put into the renovation, given the scale of the area it may still be the biggest eyesore on the block, just not derelict and vacant as it is now.

 

I don't know if a park is a good idea like desired by some Midtowners, but a new 3-4 story building on the site might fit in better.

 

If it is renovated, he must do a "good job".

^Pace was an accomplished architect before becoming a developer, so I trust him to do something good with the building if the numbers work.

 

The idea that a 7 story building is too large for this area completely puzzles me.  I really hope Pace can make this happen to keep the property away from the Dunham people. 

^Yes those evil Dunham people. A curse on them for attempting to make that area livable. But unfortunately they have had a front row seat to that devastation for a generation. I feel for those in that neighborhood who are greeted by that building everyday. Well RTA just gave them a nice Christmas present of most likely another 5 years of wait and see what happens.

While I love old architecture like anyone else, I wouldn't mind seeing that thing burned to nothing. It's just heartbreaking driving by it

^ Man TBideon sounds like you really HATE the Dunham Tavern lol.  :wave:

hah!

Soooo...no more Agora then?

RTA agrees to sell blighted building at 6611 Euclid Ave.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/post_94.html

 

Dick Pace believes he can renovate the seven-story brick building to house small companies. The president of Cumberland Development LLC, Pace turned the nearby Baker Electric Building into a successful business incubator. Now he aims to tackle a building that nearby property owners and investors describe as the biggest eyesore on the block.

 

 

 

Good news. I hope he can make something happen with that building. If new-construction office buildings can be built on spec in this area shortly after the worst credit crunch since the Great Depression, then Pace may have something worthwhile in this big ol' building. It's a nice location, next to a HealthLine station and a famous Italian grocery store and cafe.

 

He basically bought a great big concrete skeleton. Now he has to add the shell and guts.

That building in particular really should be apartments and retail.  The change of plans is kind of a shame, and I wish those tax credits were predicated on keeping the original residential plan in place.

 

It would make a great residential building, but it seems a little isolated (in the sense  of, I walk out of the front door, and where would I walk to?)  Would people move in there?

Remember the blight that Quay 55 caused for years and years as a shell along the shoreway?  I'm glad we had some patience and that building was allowed to become perhaps Cleveland's premier lakefront multifamily address (not saying much....)

^Yes those evil Dunham people. A curse on them for attempting to make that area livable. But unfortunately they have had a front row seat to that devastation for a generation. I feel for those in that neighborhood who are greeted by that building everyday. Well RTA just gave them a nice Christmas present of most likely another 5 years of wait and see what happens.

 

Booo, I'm not demonizing the Dunham folks.  Good for them for sticking it out all these tough decades.  I just don't want to see their pastoral vision for our premiere urban corridor expand any more, and certainly not at the expense of a sizable redevelopment opportunity.

What's the point of making the area liveable when development there is overwhelmingly non-residential?  Besides, Cleveland doesn't need any more meadows.  It really doesn't.  Unfortunately for the Dunham Tavern, it's become a raisin in the mayonnaise.  It represents a long lost past for Euclid Avenue that our current leaders chose not to move forward with.

My issue with a structure such as 6611 which has been a neighborhood  eyesore for over a generation lies in my belief that its fate should not be determined by those who look at it from afar. Its future should be determined by those that interact with that space on a daily basis. Those who have  invested their time and money in that neighborhood. That is what urban planning is to me. Decisions made by those who have a vested interest in their corner of the world. Because your vision may be different from theirs. And btw there is a good amount of residential in that area, especially behind the building across Chester and across Hough. And there is a huge opportunity for future residential development. In my view there may be a very strong possibility that those involved may appreciate a little more green space or an expansion of the Dunham. Give them a vote in its future. And as I have said about 6611 in the past , if that building was sitting at the end of Joe Calabrese's street it would have been demoed along time ago.

 

And MH if you want to move this convo over to the Midtown thread, it might fit better

My issue with a structure such as 6611 which has been a neighborhood  eyesore for over a generation lies in my belief that its fate should not be determined by those who look at it from afar. Its future should be determined by those that interact with that space on a daily basis. Those who have  invested their time and money in that neighborhood. That is what urban planning is to me. Decisions made by those who have a vested interest in their corner of the world. Because your vision may be different from theirs. And btw there is a good amount of residential in that area, especially behind the building across Chester and across Hough. And there is a huge opportunity for future residential development. In my view there may be a very strong possibility that those involved may appreciate a little more green space or an expansion of the Dunham. Give them a vote in its future. And as I have said about 6611 in the past , if that building was sitting at the end of Joe Calabrese's street it would have been demoed along time ago.

 

And MH if you want to move this convo over to the Midtown thread, it might fit better

 

freethink, I understand your general point but the fate of this building is[i/] being determined by neighborhood stakeholders: RTA and Dick Pace, both of whom have made substantial investments in the area that likely exceed that made by Dunham.  This isn't a neighborhood planning exercise, this is a decision about a specific site with real $ implications for RTA and the city.  I know (from the horse's mouth) that RTA has been more than happy to entertain offers from Dunham over the past few years, but they haven't been as attractive for one reason or another.

While it's certainly important to talk to neighborhood stakeholders, it's also important to look at the larger picture.  Midtown has a master plan for Euclid, and a business incubator fits that plan.  I would guess that stakeholders in Midtown as a whole would support that use, and WHRS would be in the minority if they oppose it.  Their opinion should certainly be taken into account, but at the risk of NIMBYism stymieing development along the entire corridor, theirs shouldn't be the only voice we listen to.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it.  Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.  It's a nice tall building so it brings some important density to the street.  Great access to the HealthLine and Gallucci's.  And as Pace said, it should have great views of downtown, making it desirable office space.  Glad it's not becoming yet another empty lot on Euclid.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it.  Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.

 

I like that idea! It would put a ton of light on the street too.

It's a cool old building. Beauty within ugliness.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it.  Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.

 

While I usually would abhor the idea of putting new facades on historic structures (as happened to many buildings downtown and now many of them are being taken off), since this building has lost its facade already, this might just be the change the building needs. I would love to see someone do a mockup of that to see how it would look.

I like the 6611 building and I'm glad that Pace feels the same way and wants to revitalize it.  Passing by it, I've often thought that there could be a cool, new glass and steel addition added onto it to mix old and new together.

 

While I usually would abhor the idea of putting new facades on historic structures (as happened to many buildings downtown and now many of them are being taken off), since this building has lost its facade already, this might just be the change the building needs. I would love to see someone do a mockup of that to see how it would look.

 

However, those 70's facades are vastly different then the facades of today.  I thinking jborger is hoping they put something on that blends the original building with a new addition or highlights things that need to be demo'd to modernize the building while keeping the historic portions.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/01/agora_complex_changes_hands_lo.html

 

Developers pulling their hair out trying to decide what to do with an intersection that includes a large performance venue... it's like no such opportunity has ever occurred in this city or any other.  Oh well, forget logic... let's focus on how we can ram a biotech theme into a historic rock venue located in a gritty area of the world capitol of rock music.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A Cleveland rock icon has changed hands, in a deal that promises to preserve the struggling Agora Theatre and office complex on Euclid Avenue.

Late last month, the LoConti family quietly donated the Agora complex to MidTown Cleveland Inc., a neighborhood nonprofit that plans to move its offices there.

 

Continued reading:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/01/agora_complex_changes_hands_lo.html

^^What's the complaint?  It sounds like there are already offices in the complex and the theater is being retained.  The owner donated the complex to the local development corporation and it's going to be renovated.  What would you have them do?

Change the zoning overlay in that area and advance plans that have more to do with the theater than with the clinic.  Model it after other urban areas that feature large historic performance venues.  This would almost certainly entail a greater focus on residential and retail than the rest of the corridor has gotten.  The east end of the corridor features hospitals, while this end features theaters (Masonic too).  Work with what's there.  Drop the biotech focus west of 55th, go for an entertainment-themed neighborhood instead.  Market it to CSU students, YP's, and hipsters.

It is not as if they are converting the theater into bio-tech offices...  the stage could also be used for tech events, along with concerts...   

Change the zoning overlay in that area and advance plans that have more to do with the theater than with the clinic.  Model it after other urban areas that feature large historic performance venues.  This would almost certainly entail a greater focus on residential and retail than the rest of the corridor has gotten.  The east end of the corridor features hospitals, while this end features theaters (Masonic too).  Work with what's there.  Drop the biotech focus west of 55th, go for an entertainment-themed neighborhood instead.

I love that idea, but it's not going to happen. Midtown is clearly the "Health-Tech" neighborhood. Period. That's what the developers can get money for. That's where the demand is. That's the focus of the CDC. It is what it is. Cleveland does need an entertainment themed neighborhood, but its not going to happen in Midtown. Midtown is going to be a Health-Tech focused, suburban style office park neighborhood. That's just the way it goes.

All I ask is that they start leaving the "Agora" sign on 24/7, like Playhouse. The place looks alive when that sign is on.

Not talking about the complex... talking about the area around it, which the article referenced.  Planners/developers aren't sure what to do with it.  I'm suggesting that plenty of examples already exist.  This wouldn't be the first time redevelopment took place around a large historic performance venue.  But it may be the first time that using it to anchor an entertainment district was seemingly off the table.  Of course the offices need to be filled with officey stuff, inlcuding biotech.  But that shouldn't be the overarching theme for redeveloping this area.  It's physically closer to a college and another theater than it is to any hospital.  Using the Agora's stage for "tech events" should be way, way, way down the list of priorities.

 

I love that idea, but it's not going to happen. Midtown is clearly the "Health-Tech" neighborhood. Period. That's what the developers can get money for. That's where the demand is. That's the focus of the CDC. It is what it is. Cleveland does need an entertainment themed neighborhood, but its not going to happen in Midtown. Midtown is going to be a Health-Tech focused, suburban style office park neighborhood. That's just the way it goes.

 

I'm glad you like the idea.  I personally think it's psycho for a CDC to become so wedded to one concept that they squander every non-conforming asset they're handed.  Hard to believe there's a lack of demand for entertainment districts near universities.  This seems more like bad planning, plain and simple.  One word answer for everything-- BIOTECH!  No nuance, no critical thinking, no sense of context.  I think LoConti's heart is and has always been in the right place, I just wish he had donated the property to someone with clearer vision.  That, or I wish Midtown Inc had clearer vision.

^I'm pretty sure someone reported last year that LoConti tried to donate the property to CSU or to someone else with a primary interest in the venue.  Quite understandably, given CSU's relationship and investment in Playhouse Square (i.e., an existing entertainment-based neighborhood immediately adjacent to CSU), I guess the offer went nowhere.  327, I like your vision, I just don't see any juice there.  LoConti's been really clear how hard it is for the venue to compete these days.  But the rental space in the Agora Building is going to be offered at $8/sf  ($8!!!) so  If anyone thinks there really is money for a different vision, there is plenty of room to outbid the biotech tenants in that area.

If anyone thinks there really is money for a different vision, there is plenty of room to outbid the biotech tenants in that area.

 

Not if the CDC surrounds it with suburban warehouses as fast as they can.  This shouldn't be about immediate cash availability, it should be about what's best for the future of the city.  The public spent a fortune on that transit line... immediate profits for suburban warehouse builders should not be the end-all be-all concern here.  But it appears that suburban warehouse builders are essentially in charge of planning out Cleveland's main street.  That's not ideal.  Public-private partnerships should be partnerships, with the public's interests considered and protected.  The public's interests are usually more long-term than those of construction companies.

Nothing is permanent.  Zoning can't forbid economically viable use.  If there were competing proposals, even something speculative like Stark's former WHD plans, I might be more receptive to your continuing complaints about MidTown.  But there are not.  If I am wrong, show me the proposal...... judt one.

Your right on with your thinking 327.  For what its worth they are considering creative industry type uses for the building as well and I think that would be a good fit and mesh well with the current recording company that is there (complementary uses).  But yeah this side of 55th certainly shouldnt automatically be lumped into the same single mind use that has become the thinking east of 55th.   

 

BTW, I wonder what became of Steve Popovich, Cleveland International Records Office that was in there, since is death this past year.  When I was there I didnt get the feeling that there were any other people working with him.  He mentioned his son, but I dont think he lived in the area.