Hold me, the sky is falling!

 

While I don't think that this is the best location for this facility either, if done right (a big "if"), perhaps some of the 300-500 employees could help increase demand in the area for housing, food, and other services. If so, it could be a catalyst for development. Plus, employees could take the new HealthLine to get to work rather than autos. What this would require, then, is the plans to call for limited parking and, hopefully, no surface lots.

 

Although I'm trying to put a positive spin on this, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

 

The positive spin is appreciated, but none of that is likely.  Hospitals prefer surface lots.  Best bet is to keep them off Euclid where we just built.. too late.  Hospitals (especially in bad neighborhoods) tend to have on-site food service because they know their typical employee doesn't want to be out in the ghetto.  So forget this thing spawning restaurants.  There needs to be more residential to get more restaurants, and that possibility just went out the window.  This hospital will likely bring an existing workforce in (isn't it moving in from a suburban location?), and these are people who are flat-out against riding transit.  How does a BRT connection between downtown and uptown help them with their commute anyway?  They will drive and they will expect to have hassle-free parking.  That's why ANOTHER hospital is such a horrendous thing to put next to the new transit system we just freaking built.  This project should be stopped.

 

People move.  Give them incentives to do so (as with the Clinic's "bonus" to people who live in UC).  Not sure if this is something that can be done with it being a state hospital or not, but there's always potential there. 

 

I agree with you, but had to make an attempt to make this look like something other than another 50-year bad decision.  We've made oh so many of them as a community.  What's one more?  (Great leadership by Mayor Jackson, too, to overlook the planning nightmare that this causes.  At least they're now "city" jobs.)

I don't know...I can't really get so bent out of shape about the psych hospital.  I'm sure it will be a crappy site plan and we'll all hate it...but considering how hard it's been to get new construction middle class housing built even near UC and further east on Euclid, I think it's a stretch to think that this chunk of land was going to explode into well-designed middle class housing anytime soon.  I agree that we shouldn't accept any old crap people want to build on this vacant land, but this is a pretty significant project that will bring/keep a ton of employees into the city. 

 

I guess I look at it this way: this city will see a finite number of new job-dense projects built over the next 10 years.  The city and county and other public bodies should do everything they can to funnel these types of projects to areas served by our best public transportation and to brownfield/redevelopment areas; this is the only way to make urban and transit-dependent living a practical option for residents.  I guess I'm just relieved that this thing isn't being built on some greenfield in the exurbs (like new Eaton HQ) which makes it virtually impossible for employees to have this lifestyle option.

 

So in my head it comes down to which of the transit-rich areas would have been a better fit for this facility.  Once the opportunity corridor is built, maybe big projects like this can be steered towards the east side red line corridor (like juvie hall), but probably not until then.

This facitility is a bad fit for any transit-rich area.  There are greenfields all through this city, including several within a mile of this wildly inappropriate site.  If there was never any chance of developing neighborhoods on Euclid, why was the BRT built?  If it never needed stops on Euclid between downtown and UC/EC, it's wholly redundant with the red line.  This is not the bill of goods we were sold in conjunction with that project.

 

Cardinal rule: If it's anti-urban, and it's not the Cleveland Clinic, let the burbs keep it.  Addition is subtraction, if it wastes a sunk cost or if it permanently displaces something that would have been more gainful.

^ That too. Jeeminy Christmas... this is how serious our leadership vaccuum is. Euclid Ave is being destroyed before our eyes. Wow.

 

 

 

That section of Euclid Avenue is already destroyed.  you need to look at the fact that 500 people will be driving to that employer everyday and catering to any ameneties around there.  Without jobs there, people will not go there.  I really do not see the evil in having this on this site.  There needs to be a draw to the area befor it develops resedentially and with retail. 

I agree.

 

I'm sick of hearing the whole "we're desperate to keep jobs, so let's just plunk this thing anywhere" line. Neighborhoods need to be planned much better, and those neighborhoods need to stick to their vision for the area if there will ever be any hope of it progressing, I think. There needs to be a larger vision for this area, and if it's building a bunch of medical facilities, so be it .. but I thought their vision for the neighborhood was grander than that.

 

I dunno. Personally, I'm pretty disappointed by this development. We'll see what happens, I guess. Yes, we keep jobs, and that's great. But Cleveland needs to stop settling for so little all the time.

This facitility is a bad fit for any transit-rich area. There are greenfields all through this city, including several within a mile of this wildly inappropriate site. If there was never any chance of developing neighborhoods on Euclid, why was the BRT built? If it never needed stops on Euclid between downtown and UC/EC, it's wholly redundant with the red line. This is not the bill of goods we were sold in conjunction with that project.

 

A 500-employee facility that will attract a daily stream of visitors is a bad fit for a transit-rich area?  I guess I'm puzzled by your feelings here.  I agree that I'd like to see more residential along the BRT, but you also need to give commuters somewhere to ride to.

^ That too.  Jeeminy Christmas... this is how serious our leadership vaccuum is.  Euclid Ave is being destroyed before our eyes.  Wow.

 

 

 

That section of Euclid Avenue is already destroyed.  you need to look at the fact that 500 people will be driving to that employer everyday and catering to any ameneties around there.  Without jobs there, people will not go there.  I really do not see the evil in having this on this site.  There needs to be a draw to the area befor it develops resedentially and with retail. 

 

I need a beer.  I know a ton of people who commute to jobs in the city, and they are 100% against patronizing local businesses.  They don't want to be out of their cars in these areas, and given the current shortage of health care workers, their employer will make sure they're happy in this regard.  Hospitals do not spawn residential and retail... if they do, what the hell is going on around the Clinic?  It's been there for ages, employing zillions over that time, and look at the area around it!  This is not the kind of traffic that helps an urban neighborhood.  This only hurts, and it's especially bad here because there were so many high hopes for the corridor.

 

A 500-employee facility that will attract a daily stream of visitors is a bad fit for a transit-rich area?  I guess I'm puzzled by your feelings here.  I agree that I'd like to see more residential along the BRT, but you also need to give commuters somewhere to ride to.

 

Help me understand where you're coming from. 

 

In what way is BRT a commuter line?  It was never intended to be.  Do you really think a significant portion of these workers or hospital visitors will utilize the BRT?  Are you suggesting that Lutheran helps W25th with its stream of visitors?  This is not how I see things working out in practice... at all.  Private institutions like hospitals are anti-pedestrian.  If you want to see more residential in an area, why simultaneously support placing something there that people don't want to live around? 

^I think you're view of the Clinic's impact is a little narrow.  The Clinic has done a terrible job with its vast land holdings, and as a result of which, we'll never know if employees would patronize nearby businesses.  But the location of the Clinic most certainly makes living in the Heights, downtown, and even crappier parts of the city an attractive and viable option for its thousands of employees.  And I'd guess that hundreds of Clinic employees arrive to work on public transit every day.

^ That too.  Jeeminy Christmas... this is how serious our leadership vaccuum is.  Euclid Ave is being destroyed before our eyes.  Wow.

 

 

 

That section of Euclid Avenue is already destroyed.  you need to look at the fact that 500 people will be driving to that employer everyday and catering to any ameneties around there.  Without jobs there, people will not go there.  I really do not see the evil in having this on this site.  There needs to be a draw to the area befor it develops resedentially and with retail. 

 

I need a beer.  I know a ton of people who commute to jobs in the city, and they are 100% against patronizing local businesses.  They don't want to be out of their cars in these areas, and given the current shortage of health care workers, their employer will make sure they're happy in this regard.  Hospitals do not spawn residential and retail... if they do, what the hell is going on around the Clinic?  It's been there for ages, employing zillions over that time, and look at the area around it!  This is not the kind of traffic that helps an urban neighborhood.  This only hurts, and it's especially bad here because there were so many high hopes for the corridor.

 

Go ahead and build 100 condominiums there.  Do you reall think people want to live at 55th and Euclid right now.  Probably not.  If you were a bank, would you provide someone funding for houses there, probably not.  Area's don't develop because houses are built, houses are built because there are jobs.  Jobs come first, homes come next, retail comes last. 

^I think you're view of the Clinic's impact is a little narrow.  The Clinic has done a terrible job with its vast land holdings, and as a result of which, we'll never know if employees would patronize nearby businesses.  But the location of the Clinic most certainly makes living in the Heights, downtown, and even crappier parts of the city an attractive and viable option for its thousands of employees.  And I'd guess that hundreds of Clinic employees arrive to work on public transit every day.

 

But the BRT doesn't go to any of those places in the Heights, so it doesn't factor into too many of those professional commutes.  What does the Clinic do that other hospitals don't, which results in a unique amount of not-retail and not-residential all around it?  Out of 100,000s of employees, hundreds use transit?  I view that ratio somewhat negatively, to say the least.  Please help me understand, so I can drink less tonight.

 

Go ahead and build 100 condominiums there.  Do you reall think people want to live at 55th and Euclid right now.  Probably not.  If you were a bank, would you provide someone funding for houses there, probably not.  Area's don't develop because houses are built, houses are built because there are jobs.  Jobs come first, homes come next, retail comes last. 

 

No, I do not believe development must, or can, be sequential like that.  Jobs exist in abundance two miles to the east and west of 55th street.  Again, if residential wasn't ever planned for Euclid, why the BRT?  What's still lacking is quality urban retail/residential amenities in this area.  Are you saying that living next to a mental hospital or "senior housing" (those towers on W25th are "senior housing") is desirable and will one day increase residential demand?  On what grounds?  Because people work there?  People work in slaughterhouses, but they're not conducive to residential on any timeline.  Neither is this.

 

... I read and write very quickly, but I'm getting worn out here today... this has been eminently enjoyable, thank you all... I must now go mourn for Midtown...

Sorry I mistyped the 100,000s.  I'm sure the transit usage ratio at the Clinic is poor, but I'm sure it's a lot better than the new UH hospital being built in Chagrin Highlands will have.  And even if it's poor overall, it means lower income workers and those who prefer using transit have options.

 

327, I guess I might agree with you more if there was any indication whatsoever that there was market rate housing activity being displaced by the psych hospital.  As far as I know, the big housing projects and post industrial landscape have done a good enough job on their own stifling residential interest there.

 

^Oh, my comments are only about the psych hospital.  I feel very differently about the other two project that were announced.

KJP can correct me on this one, but I would not consider a building on 14 acres (probably surrounded by a sea of parking and a nice green lawn) as a TOD.

 

Time to put a call into the planning commission office.  Others, please join.

KJP can correct me on this one, but I would not consider a building on 14 acres (probably surrounded by a sea of parking and a nice green lawn) as a TOD.

 

Time to put a call into the planning commission office. Others, please join.

 

You got it buster.  Have a great holiday everyone!

For what's it's worth, much of the site is in the MMUD-1 zoning district, including all of the Euclid frontage  I've never read the code, but per this Midtwon document (http://www.midtowncleveland.org/data/pdf/MTC%20master%20plan-zoning%20summaries.pdf):

 

This sub-area [MMUD-1] provides for multistory

mixed-use structures that

sit at the street line and extend

the majority of the lot width. First

floor retail or office space combined

with upper floor office or

residential use is desired.

Parking may be located at the

rear or side of buildings. There

is limited application for drive-up

window uses in this sub-area.

 

Our zoning code may prevent a worst-case site plan.

^Not to be cleveland.bomb negative, but what are the odds that it won't look a lot like a clinic set-up?

Sorry, one more thing:  Keep reading that Midtown plan.  Read the long version.  It includes a specific proposal for that site which clashes significantly with the MMUD-1 concept.  Also, look into what the City's actual zoning is for that parcel. 

 

Despite "MMUD-1" the Midtown Inc plan is to encourage mixed use development only from 71st to 79th... where the senior housing is apparently going in.  The rest of Euclid is to be a business park.

What does the Clinic do that other hospitals don't, which results in a unique amount of not-retail and not-residential all around it?

 

To close this loop:  Unlike hospitals in urban areas where land is actually worth a lot, the Clinic owns everything in its vicinity.  Everything.  The few retail establishments near the Clinic (like the ones on the ground floor of the Guesthouse) lease from the Clinic.  The only opportunity for the non-Clinic market to even try to offer up retail/dining for Clinic employees is on Cedar Avenue which is so far gone; but even on Cedar there was until last year a restaurant that lived off Clinic diners.

 

could Metro have been a catalyst for Steelyard?

^I wouldn't go that far, but it is certainly far more harmful than beneficial to the city.  Who would want to start a small business nextdoor to a psychiatric hospital?  Who would want to build middle class residences across the street from facilities like that? 

 

Well, if you look at Las Olas Boulevard in Fort Lauderdale, they have both a community and a psychiatric hospital not more than 100 yards from each other.  Both of them are surrounded by not just middle-class, but seriously upper-class residences.

 

I'm not advocating that this is the best use for Euclid, but it can't be all that bad...

 

Here is a google maps view of the nasty buildings (keep in mind the buildings are nasty, but the neighborhood is pretty cool):

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=SE+16th+Avenue+and+Las+Olas+Boulevard&sll=26.119536,-80.126861&sspn=0.001366,0.00284&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A&layer=c&cbll=26.119385,-80.127188&panoid=_P8GGaTvyIqyll1LLfNsaw&cbp=12,231.76,,0,23.02

^ I see a whole bunch of hedges and walls and fences along that street.  As predicted, no pedestrians either.  There's no pedestrian activity in the middle of a beautiful day.  I think I see one person walking around.  The housing around there isn't bad, but the style is semi-rural.  The commercial stuff is all 1-story and devoid of visible patrons.  Nothing, absolutely nothing, appears to be mixed use.  If it weren't sunny, that picture would be kind of depressing. 

 

I don't see anything along that street that makes me think the developments in question will be anything but destructive to Euclid Avenue.  Nice street though.  Just needs some people on it.  Let's not make the same mistakes Ft. Lauderdale did.  They can overcome planning mistakes with sunshine, we can't.

Bottom line is this IMO: by the time that specific area of Euclid is ready for the type of residential influx and pedestrian vibrancy 327 and others envision, the psychiatric hospital will be about ready to come down anyway.  :wink:

 

BRT or not, there are way too many areas of the City more promising for sustainable gentrification.  sh!te, the port relocation and lakefront project will be done before meaningful residential buildings start popping up around 55th and Euclid regardless of any psych hospital.

 

The BRT is a long stretch.  There is A LOT of filling in to do and PLENTY of room to do it.

hmm, i dont see anything wrong with the hospital along euclid ave outright. however, i dont think using up a chunk of a large plot where there are long simmering other plans is wise when it could be sited elsewhere, even in midtown.

 

just for laughs let's say it still 'has to be on euclid,' is there any better site than this one?

 

wherever it ends up being built --- at the very least the city needs to wring good or at least ok design, urban form and a parking garage out of the deal. allowing all surface parking would be a total blunder.

 

The whole point of the Healthline was to spur development along Euclid Ave, and it was working well until the housing crisis.

There are lots of places this hospital can go, the city planning department should have the discipline to demand that any development along Euclid Ave fit into a dense urban main street.

Maybe there won't be that kind of development there for 10 or even 20 years.  Now, that development will never happen on those 14 acres, and not it is much less likely in the areas immediately surrounding it.

I never realized my optimism for Midtown was so unique.  It appears I'm certifiably insane.  I think there is immediate need for residential there, particularly for college students and healthcare workers, and many pieces are already in place there for a thriving youth-oriented mixed use district.  I also think if the prospects for Euclid Ave were known to be this dark, building the BRT was an enourmous and tragic mistake.  That money should have gone elsewhere. 

 

I strongly disagree that there is a ton of potential neighborhood land along Euclid.  It's a lot less empty than people seem to think.  Many of these awful structures were built somewhat recently, that's the sad thing.  There's really no hope of getting them torn down.  The street is empty of pedestrians and businesses to serve them, but it's far far far from being empty of buildings.  They're just the wrong buildings, with the wrong roles in society to have them lined up along our new BRT. 

 

How many people work at the sewer district HQ, at 40th?  I walked by there every day, never saw a single person outdoors.  Never saw one inside either, because they put stuff along every window to cut themselves off from their surroundings.  They should have told the architect not to put windows and saved some money.  Workplaces are not the answer.  We need things that either contain or serve residents.  Anything that is forbidden to residents should be forbidden to Euclid Avenue.

 

This area around 55th is about the only open stretch we have left.  Sure there are scattered parcels elsewhere, but nowhere that isn't already hemmed in by institutions and other 9-5 stuff.  The area closer to 79th has more going on, while the area from 55th to downtown is almost entirely filled with anti-pedestrian structures.  There's one restaraunt and one convenience store for 20 blocks, and that convenience store mostly just sells cheap porn.     

well at least they didn't build this in some other city haha

wherever it ends up being built --- at the very least the city needs to wring good or at least ok design, urban form and a parking garage out of the deal. allowing all surface parking would be a total blunder.

 

 

That's where my mind is too.  I'm OK with the facility being here, but for god's sake- let's get some decent design and streetscape our of this.

 

327, I don't know about the viability of residential in that part of Midtown, but you do raise an interesting question about the BRT that we've discussed on this board before.  Right now, the biggest residential area with any density that the BRT touches upon is in East Cleveland, which is literally crumbling.  As the employment base along the BRT grows, I really do hope RTA investigates sending BRT branches up Cedar and maybe even through service to the west side on Clifton.  That could connect a lot of nice, dense residential areas to our main employment centers with one-seat rides.

Hi,

 

I don't know if this is exactly the appropriate thread for posting this...But the curiosity I have had for so long has gotten the best of me.

 

Near Euclid and E.55th, on the north side of Euclid, there is one standing building left over from past demolitions in that area---that is about...Ohhh.. maybe 6 floors or so, red brick (dirty of course) all boarded up, with spectacular bay windows and street level retail. I have always thought this building would be a gem if fully restored and yet for so long, it has sat there.

 

I have not been down that part of Euclid in over a month and have not paid attention to whether or not it is even still there.... But I would like to know if it is....  Why such a building, that at least in my unprofessional eye, looks to be a great renovation possibility..is still sitting all alone surrounded by empty lots now? Is there going to be any interest in it?

 

 

Also, I remember in the early 1980's, when traveling to the mid part of Euclid with my Father who did a lot of work around greater Cleveland...stopping by what was the old Green Vacuum Parts Distributorship. The building I am talking about was near here...and I remember at that time, several ones similar, all boarded up of course....  And from what I remember, they were some pretty great buildings too. Now they're all gone. It was almost like a second little downtown, except that the time I witnessed it, all the buildings near Green Vac, were already in decline.

 

Well, just wondered if anyone knew anything about the one lone survivor in that area. If that ever became available--and when my ship comes in, I'd consider buying that and getting something done with it.

 

Maybe someone has some pictures.

EC, the building you are thinking of (actually 2 buildings) was just demolished.

 

I have to agree that this is about as poor a land use decision as we could make.  That said, I don't want to see this conversation just go in circles.  I recommend writing to your City Councilperson and State Representative, not the City Planning Commission.  If they had even the slightest amount of muscle, we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

Does anyone have any history/photos of that building?  :whip: Shame on that decision..someone needs to be spanked. I wonder if there were any fixtures or interiors worth salvaging.

See historical photos I posted at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7006.msg385496.html#msg385496

I spoke with someone at the city planning commission yesterday.  They were kind enough to hear me out and said they'd pass along my concerns.  The person I spoke with was unaware of either of these stories, including the mayor's announcement, and thought I was talking about the PD story from a couple Sundays ago. 

 

They didn't show their hand as to where they stood personally on this site choice.  They raised the issue of we gotta have something, and I raised the issues I've raised here.  I used W25th as a comparison.  South of Bridge it has street life, north of Bridge it has a hospital and senior housing.  That point seemed to register somewhat.  Then again, as X says, this might be an issue best brought to others.  I encourage everyone to contact whomever they can contact to get this turned around.  Perhaps after the holiday.           

^ I see a whole bunch of hedges and walls and fences along that street. As predicted, no pedestrians either. There's no pedestrian activity in the middle of a beautiful day. I think I see one person walking around. The housing around there isn't bad, but the style is semi-rural. The commercial stuff is all 1-story and devoid of visible patrons. Nothing, absolutely nothing, appears to be mixed use. If it weren't sunny, that picture would be kind of depressing.

 

I don't see anything along that street that makes me think the developments in question will be anything but destructive to Euclid Avenue. Nice street though. Just needs some people on it. Let's not make the same mistakes Ft. Lauderdale did. They can overcome planning mistakes with sunshine, we can't.

 

Well, picture aside, Las Olas is one of the more pedestrian areas of town in Ft Lauderdale.  Lots of art galleries, restaurants, hotels, etc.  And it doesn't hurt that there are some ridiculous houses along the intercostal right in that area.

Was the psych ward built before the residential areas of Las Olas?  If not, I don't think it would be a fair comparison.  While I am not as against a psych ward as I am section 8 housing, there is a miniscule amount of people who would actually be willing to move to the areas once the psych ward is built.  If the residential stuff had been built before, it would probably be a different story.

 

Regarding the EC, I'm starting to have my doubts on its impact.  327 rattled off a very sound rationale for why such a development as the psych ward goes against the very foundation of why the EC was built.  However, that can be for a different time and a different thread.

 

On a different note, any status on the Victory building? 

 

^ I see a whole bunch of hedges and walls and fences along that street. As predicted, no pedestrians either. There's no pedestrian activity in the middle of a beautiful day. I think I see one person walking around. The housing around there isn't bad, but the style is semi-rural. The commercial stuff is all 1-story and devoid of visible patrons. Nothing, absolutely nothing, appears to be mixed use. If it weren't sunny, that picture would be kind of depressing.

 

I don't see anything along that street that makes me think the developments in question will be anything but destructive to Euclid Avenue. Nice street though. Just needs some people on it. Let's not make the same mistakes Ft. Lauderdale did. They can overcome planning mistakes with sunshine, we can't.

 

You asked "Who would want to move there?" if there was a psychiatric hospital.  I told you plenty of people, from the middle-class to the upper-upper class.

 

Now, you are talking about how many pedestrians there are or aren't.  Well, I've got news for you, even this stretch of Las Olas, which is possibly the least attractive part of that boulevard has plenty of pedestrians (joggers, walkers, bicyclists, nannies with their kids on strollers, etc.).  People actually walk, bike, skate, run multiple miles down this road every day to head to/from the beach.

 

By the way, remember, the picture was to highlight the lousy buildings, not to highlight the pedestrians visible during a particular snapshot in time (and location).  Take a look at this next picture, if you don't move left or right on it, do you get any clue as to how many pedestrians or what great mixed-use development you are going to see?

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=times+square,+new+york&sll=42.358544,-86.088867&sspn=19.207701,46.538086&ie=UTF8&t=h&layer=c&cbll=40.758985,-73.984076&panoid=-pfCWYUCMEg3n6Ce006W8g&cbp=12,311.09,,0,1.9&ll=40.759025,-73.984208&spn=0.019244,0.045447&z=15&iwloc=A

 

 

Now, to the mixed-use point, I agree that Las Olas is not the best example of a mixed-use implementation.  In fact it is pretty lousy in that respect.

 

However, even then, within it, there are restaurants, shops, a hotel, spas, offices, condominiums, medical offices, apartments.  Also, within a half block of it (in both the north and south boundaries) there are plenty of townhomes, million(s) dollar homes and medical offices.

 

I would take that kind of "lousy" mixed-use on Euclid anytime of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

Was the psych ward built before the residential areas of Las Olas?  If not, I don't think it would be a fair comparison.  While I am not as against a psych ward as I am section 8 housing, there is a miniscule amount of people who would actually be willing to move to the areas once the psych ward is built.  If the residential stuff had been built before, it would probably be a different story.

 

It appears from hospital-data.com that the psych ward was built in 1988 and the other hospital in 1976.  I would bet serious amounts of money that at least 25% of residential, restaurants, stores, offices and condos in the Las Olas area (Las Olas Blvd. and within a block north and south along it) has been built (or re-built) since 1976.

 

---------------------------

 

My point is:

IF the Psych Hospital on Euclid Avenue is developed correctly it will not negligibly change the disposition of people to walk or live in/around Euclid Avenue.

 

My biggest concern is, can the Psych Ward be correctly built from a mixed-use perspective?

 

A mixed-use psych ward?  Really?  High-security installations don't mix well with anything.  It could be a psych ward or a place where they develop new fruit roll-up flavors... either way, it is off limits to everyone and that's the problem.  It adds a pedestrian dead zone to a street already struggling with them. 

 

Euclid Avenue is not exactly on the way to the beach.  If we want pedestrians here we have to entice them with the road itself, not the destination.  If there's a beach at the end of it, a road in Florida is probably going to see continuing positive developments no matter what planning mistakes occur.

 

I'm not against psych wards.  I'm against building anything on Euclid that doesn't fit the plan inherent in the BRT.  We all have a clear idea what was being sold at the time.  This ain't it.  This mental hospital will be a big inert cinderbrick of a structure surrounded by all the layers of KEEP OUT they can think of.

 

We've already established that Euclid doesn't currently have an atmosphere encouraging pedestrians and residents.  We aren't trying to preserve a neighborhood that would be hurt by these projects, we're trying to preserve the chance to build one.  No, putting a psych ward at 55th wouldn't do much harm to the existing situation for pedestrians.  But it would do immeasurable harm to any potential improvements to the situation.

I think it can be done right.

I am sure it won't be done right.

It definitely can be done right... good design can cure a lot of ills...

 

but I agree with your second comment.

327- I share your enthusiasm for Midtown (I guess I'm insane too!).  I emailed Krumholz as soon as I learned about these two developments.  He thanked me for the email and recommended that I contact Rob Brown and Tony Coyne and voice my concerns.

 

Bob Brown's email is:

 

Bob Brown, Director of the Planning Dept. [email protected]

 

Tony Coyne's email is harder to come by... if someone has it, post it!

 

 

Tony Coyne is currently the chairmen of the cleveland city planning commission and is an attorney with Mansou, Gavin, Gerlack & Manos.  His email address is [email protected]

This will be not be built poorly, it has to be built upto MMID code, for once, new construction falls in the zone this time, not outside of it. Any parking lots will be behind the building or in the form of a parking deck. Obviously, none of this has been drafted up yet, but I am only going on what the zoning for MidTown states.

 

People, I would love to see MidTown developed full of lofts, condo's, and live-work space. But who are you kidding when you suggest this is a huge setback, as if this is the only remaining land in MidTown, or more importantly, on Euclid? I can name 50 parcels of land ON EUCLID that are more suitable for condo's than this site. E. 71st near Baker Motors and the "Marous Brothers" project is much more realistic, as is anywhere around The Agora or NEORSD.

 

This is 500 new jobs on Euclid, 300 more people living inside, and 100's of visitors per day. Now even if only 10 people move to the area, it's better than none. Even if only 50 of the workers leave the hospital to go eat at a nearby restaurant, that's better than none. Doctors, nurses, aides, and psychiatric specialists are high paying jobs that require medical degrees. Do we not want 500 of them on Euclid? Would you prefer a skatepark? Would you prefer the continued presence of a grassy field? Or would you prefer this hospital be built in the greenfield space next to the new juvi center in the middle of the forgotten triangle?

 

The comparison of a psychiatric hospital to section 8 housing, homeless people, or criminals is absurd -- the patients will never leave the facility and more likely than not, you'll never enter it! Many middle-class and upper-class people have family members - siblings, children, parents who live in a psychiatric hospital and they visit them. This is not going to be crack addicts getting a visit from their crack addict spouse.

 

This might or might not produce new spin-off development, but give me a break. We'd be complaining if this were built in the suburbs and now we're complaining that it's being built here. It's a hospital, a rather large one, and if anyone thinks it stole the place of condo's, you're kidding only yourself. There is nothing urban about living on that portion of Euclid. Where can you walk to? There is NOTHING walkable in under 10 blocks. Gust Gallucci's?

 

Chester 82 is on the backburner and until that is built or Beacon Place is completed (also on hold), as well as the Marous Brother's proposed project at E. 71st and Euclid, we can't even begin to hope for any residential at E. 55th and Euclid. This land has no potential to be used for college dorms or residential. There is so much land available adjacent to CSU's campus as well as 3 private developments currently underway adjacent to the campus; CSU is 30 blocks away and even if this land would make good use for it, there will be no demand short-term with all that is already being built (or about to be built) on the campus.

 

Just remember, this nearly-100 million dollar hospital will be built right in the center of the "HEALTHLINE". I would rather high-tech or live-work in this area, but a large hospital is a long-term investment into the community. There's probably not a single Urbanohio'er who would feel comfortable walking around E. 55th and Euclid at 3am. When the hospital is up and running with security, surveillance, a 24/7 staff, and lighting, you'll feel like you're in a civilized setting, which is hardly the case right now. Right now, it's a scene out of Assault On Precinct 13's streetscapes. BTW - The other 2 projects proposed for Euclid are a whole different story and I would save your barking for those.

The problem is that this isn't the highest and best use for a site that is so well positioned and invested into for street level interaction.  I understand what you're saying biz, but this is a very short sited development decision on a thoroughfare that we knew would not make a 180 degree turn over night.  Cities are never really complete, and making the right decisions right now can affect the way things develop for decades.  Putting a psych ward in the middle of Euclid is not a wise forward looking option.

I totally agree. This is a typical decision out of desperation .. because Cleveland is bleeding jobs, etc.

 

Cleveland seriously needs to start considering and planning for the future, not just for today. If it wants to truly turn around and bring itself into the future in a smart and progressive way, it needs to start making DECISIONS that reflect that .. and sometimes that means waiting for something better to come along, not just jumping at every opportunity that comes along!

^ BizBiz please read the long version Midtown Inc plan before citing it.  The long version zones this area very differently than the short one does.  I think even the short one, if you actually look at the map, shows an industrial park spanning both sides of Euclid at that point.  The short one with the MMU- whatevers is downright misleading.  The plan is for Euclid to be a business park from I-90 to E79th St.

 

I guess there's not much you can walk to around there, other than Dave's, half the Asiatown stores and restaraunts, a thrift store, a diner on Prospect, a recently opened restaurant at 36th, and indeed Gust Galluci's.  I lived there for about a year, so I know what it has and what it doesn't have.  The anti-Midtown attitudes I'm hearing from a lot of folks here are cynical and misinformed.   

 

There is a solid neighborhood framework in this area-- moreso than there is from 71st to 79th.  If the BRT to be leveraged into anything urban, this is the spot.  It has anchors, in particular the Agora, and it has enough empty or easily-cleared land nearby to build something with critical mass. 

 

The area from 55th westward, other than the county's parking lot for which there's no replacement, is full.  It's full.  I'd like to see new residential there but it's full.  If you don't believe me, please tell me which new structures you think they'll let us knock down to build a neighborhood.  They won't.  Maybe everything from 30th to the innerbelt will come down for residential, but I don't see that happening either.  So where are all these contiguous developable sections of Euclid I keep hearing about?  I only see one, around 55th.  I triple dog dare you to list 50 comparable parcels.

 

Every theory I hear about Euclid being wrong for residential really makes me wonder why the BRT was ever built, with a stop on every block.  That simply isn't done anywhere on earth to serve an industrial park. 

 

And if you don't think people have issues living next to a psych ward, I guess you haven't read any of the court cases about that exact issue.  For a lot of people it's a dealbreaker.  If that's not the case for you, that's very noble.  But from a development perspective this thing will NOT draw residents, in fact it will be kryptonite.   

 

I would absolutely prefer this be built near the new juvie center.  That would be 7-8 times smarter than tying up Euclid Ave with another inert box of gloom.  Those people visiting their relative at the psych ward-- are they happy about it?  Is this the impression we want people to have about Euclid Avenue, oh no what's to become of my sister?  Isn't there anywhere else that kind of tragedy could play out?  Anywhere else?  You don't see any negative associations there at all? 

 

Moreover, the fact that the typical Euclid Ave resident or pedestrian would never enter this facility is PRECISELY why it doesn't belong on Euclid.  I don't know how I could make that any plainer at this point.

"not blindly opposed to growth....but rather, opposed to blind growth"

A mixed-use psych ward?  Really?  High-security installations don't mix well with anything.  It could be a psych ward or a place where they develop new fruit roll-up flavors... either way, it is off limits to everyone and that's the problem.  It adds a pedestrian dead zone to a street already struggling with them.

 

 

I NEVER said that the psych ward itself would be a mixed-use development and if it was read that way I truly apologize.

 

What I did say is that if done correctly it would not negatively impact people's interest/inclination in walking or living in that area.

 

I also pointed out that if this works in other areas it could work in Cleveland, but you think that other areas are so special (like having a beach) that those areas can afford to get away with poor planning.  Whereas Cleveland has to have everything be perfect otherwise, oooooohhhhh ahhhhhhhh, the big bad gremlin will get me when I walk by the psych ward on my way to the office building or condo next door.  :-)

 

Psychiatric institutions work very well in other cities* and will work in Euclid as well.  It would be a bonus (and I'm all for bombarding anyone to assure us of this) if they also design this appropriately so that it fits inside a mixed-use <b>neighborhood</b>.

 

 

No, putting a psych ward at 55th wouldn't do much harm to the existing situation for pedestrians.  But it would do immeasurable harm to any potential improvements to the situation.

 

I also never meant to say that the existing situation was the reason people would or would not walk.  What I meant to say is that either people have a disposition to walk/live in urban settings or they do not and a psych ward is not going to change that pre-disposition.

 

Granted, a badly designed and implemented psych ward will definitely exacerbate their negative inclinations.

 

I not only share your enthusiasm for Midtown, but when I lived in Cleveland I would drive up/down Euclid almost every day imagining it as it must have been many years ago.  I also, would constantly shop at Galluci's and at the old Taco Bell on 55th and at one of the many neighborhood fried chicken places in the area.  Yep, the owners would almost have heart attacks when the white-hispanic would walk in the door.  I think they thought I would get shot or something.

 

I did this despite it being way out of the way (I lived in the Warehouse District, but worked in Chagrin).  In fact, the last time I was in Cleveland (for Valentine's Day...yes I took my wife and daughter up to Cleveland, instead of to the beach, to celebrate Valentine's) I specifically forced my friend to drive me from downtown to university circle on Euclid so that I could see the progress.  I do this because I still dream of the day that Euclid is once again packed with people.

 

Oh, and, when my wife and I studied at CWRU we would gladly take the #6 up/down Euclid even though it felt like a death wish everytime you got on that bus.

 

Having said all that, if not being opposed to a well-designed psych ward negates all the other great things I think/dream about for Euclid then, you and Oldmanladyluck can be the "insane" ones and I'll keep my sanity, thank you very much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I did a quick search for "psychiatric hospitals in Manhattan" no less than six institutions showed up and guess what, most of them are in the well-to-do areas of the city.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF8&q=psychiatric+hospital&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=b0FSStO8OY2_lAeM7tW7Dg&radius=4.76&sll=40.735291,-73.995323&sspn=0.077003,0.181789&rq=1&ll=40.773132,-73.957043&spn=0,359.818211&z=13&iwloc=lyrftr:lmq:0:psychiatric+hospital,1996386165916928997,40.769882,-73.952923&layer=c&cbll=40.769891,-73.952916&panoid=EqRekKOrvqMtX50mcBVdtg&cbp=12,29.99,,0,2.88

 

 

Got my reply from Bob Brown...

 

Dear Oldmanladyluck:

 

 

 

Thank you for writing about the future of Euclid Avenue in Midtown.  The City continues to support the vision for mixed-use development with technology and bio-medical uses, complemented by pedestrian-oriented/transit-oriented housing and retail.  We believe that the proposed developments can contribute to that vision, particularly if the buildings are properly designed and sited to promote pedestrian activity and transit use.  All of the proposed uses are relatively high-density uses.  The mental health hospital will bring hundreds of new employees to this portion of Euclid Avenue – employees and visitors who can use the transit line and patronize restaurants and stores.  Also, significant amounts of vacant and underutilized land and buildings will remain open for development and re-use along this portion of Euclid Avenue .  The City is committed to working with Midtown Cleveland and others to facilitate development and uses that are consistent with the Midtown plan.

 

 

 

Please feel free to get back to me if you have further questions.

 

 

 

Robert N. Brown, Director

 

Cleveland City Planning Commission

 

[email protected]

 

Tel: 216-664-3467  Fax: 216-664-3281

 

Web Site:  http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us

I'm not exactly sure I'd call places 20+ blocks west and 4-5 avenues north part of a walkable neighborhood.  Or at least I'll say I don't think you're going to find any developers to buy into that train of thought.

When I think of "mixed use development" being right next to "bio-medical uses" I think of Resident Evil.  Not the first one, I mean the one where they did all that in the middle of a freaking city.  If our concept is matching residential with bio-tech, our concept is bunk.  These are two things that actually need to be segregated.  And the idea that these workers will ride a bus that only goes down Euclid is laughable.  So funny I could cry. 

 

Again, there is all kinds of private land near the Cleveland Clinic and it's never developed in the way we're being told the area around this hospital will develop.  Neither has W 25th north of Bridge.  This is being done for the Mayor's short term political gain and that's all there is to it.  Replace "hospital" with "slaughterhouse" or "paper factory" employing 500 and see if jobs are ever, ever, ever the only thing a responsible planner must consider.

 

Well, all I can say after reading these posts is...if it happens..and you can't hide it, then decorate it! At least make it the best it can be. No big setbacks, give it some curb appeal. I still prefer these to be set on the side streets as there are plenty of other areas for it.

 

Wait...come to think of this again....  This whole issue is about the stigma attached to a kook hospital. Ok.. I tend to agree that as Cleveland's main and grand avenue, we should not have it serving as a tribute and testament to ill-social health. That irritates me as much as I see countless people abusing disability tags, hanging from their car mirrors as though they were some sort of air freshener....advertising to the world how sick we are.

 

Now we will present ill social health along the main avenue through Cleveland. I think this say something about where priorities have evolved.