May 24, 20187 yr Also, From where will the parking be accessed? Will it be a combo of 2nd and Price? If it were all accessed from Price then I can see it being probematic. But if one street is an entrance(like 2nd)and the other an exit(onto Price and then right to the light at High) I don't see the problem. Is the traffic going to have to traverse the lengths of 2nd and Price to Dennison or just the small strip by High? Price is pretty narrow down around Dennison. Anyone know?
May 24, 20187 yr Residents, developer continue to debate size of planned mid-rise in Victorian Village The heated debate over a proposed mid-rise tower in Victorian Village continues, even as the plans evolve. The Victorian Village Commission heard from developer Brett Kaufman Wednesday night as he continues to refine designs for a mixed-use development at the site of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers building at 23 W. 2nd Ave. and an adjacent parking lot. More than a dozen area residents voiced their objections during the two-hour meeting. Plans for the tower have changed a number of times, with Kaufman having shrunk the building from the 14-story plan brought forward in April to a tiered 12-story, 10-story and five-story trio of buildings. "This is the brightest, shiniest part of Columbus where density is going to start to land and height is already there," Kaufman said. "We will … do our best to try to please as many as we can, but at the end of the day, we’re building a city and we want to do that in the most appropriate way possible.” More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2018/05/24/residents-developer-continue-to-debate-size-of.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 25, 20187 yr The census estimates coming out make larger projects like this even more of a "threat" and necessity. Columbus' population growth is only accelerating, and housing construction has largely failed to recover from the recession of 2008-2010. Inventory is low, prices are rising and demand is at record levels. There's increasing pressure, not to mention money to be made, on going larger in hot neighborhoods. We've been seeing this even in places like Upper Arlington with the proposed 11-story there. This project is going to be built, and given the statements by Kaufman, it's going to be built as large as they can reasonably do. They see the market and are responding to it.
May 25, 20187 yr ^ There is also this update to the Kaufman IBEW project. Another Victorian Village Commission meeting is scheduled for tonight at 6PM regarding this project. This is a special meeting with the Kaufman IBEW project as the only agenda item. Apparently there is also another design revision (which there is a brief view of in the video at the WCMH/NBC4 link below): http://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/victorian-village-residents-still-fighting-proposed-development/1192938001 Not at all surprised. The "lego" comment is totally valid, though. They need to show precedents in other cities if they haven't already -- and further explain that this is an EMPTY site and the potential tax advantages of having 200+ apartments on this small site. They are an urban-adjacent residential neighborhood. If not here then on High Street. What difference does it make? The Short North is only going to get wider... Might as well start here with a building that actually attempts to mitigate the difference in scale. You're missing a huge point. There are parking/traffic constraints already and this is along price which is a narrow one way street on one side and a primarily residential street that doesn't even feed down to Neil on the other. People need to stop comparing this to Atlanta and NYC because it is not in any way similar. I am 10000000000% for apartments and a project at that site, but not at it's proposed size. Something more like the Jerome, Aston Place or even something from Neighborhood Launch are more appropriate. Oh for heaven's sake...it is along Price and 2nd and is what, 100 or 200 feet from High-which is where all of the traffic will be going. It sounds like you live right on this street and are being a NIMBY lol. There is nothing wrong with the size or location. You don't put something like Neighborhood Launch here for God's sake. That is crazy. How far do you live from this project?-it sounds like you are very much more concerned about this one than any other project ever proposed for the city. *now the materials, colors, quality, etc. -that is a different matter. And yes the thing on the Commons is a monstrosity and I agree I would be more concerned with that than the height on this. If it turns out like that thing, it will be disastrous. I will agree on that. My point is the Neilston and Normandy both hold 130 units at 5 stories each. If you bump those up to 7-8 stories versus 10-12 or 14 on the Price site, you have somewhere around 180-200+ units. This project would be passed with minimal kickback at 7-8 stories of JUST residential, but Kaufman won't do that and they will be in for a fight for that reason.
May 25, 20187 yr Remember that this project was already fully approved at 9 stories, and there was little to no opposition at the time. This whole thing that's going on now started up because Kaufman came back with the High St side bumped up to 14. It's already balanced out some to 12 now, and he seemed to indicate he would be open to 11, so I have some confidence he and the VVC will come to an agreement soon I believe there's also a deadline he's working against in regards to needing to have it approved this summer to avoid the new affordable housing requirements the city is about to implement for the SN...
June 25, 20186 yr Another Wood Companies aerial of Hubbard Park Place. 711 N High clearly visible as well.
June 26, 20186 yr I know Wood Co has a lot going on right now (even that's a huge understatement), but I wonder if they'll ever dust off the plans to add 4-5 stories of apartments on the back side of the Winders Chevy (Hubbard Grille) building?
June 26, 20186 yr I know Wood Co has a lot going on right now (even that's a huge understatement), but I wonder if they'll ever dust off the plans to add 4-5 stories of apartments on the back side of the Winders Chevy (Hubbard Grille) building? I would prefer them to build on the plaza at Price & High first.
July 12, 20186 yr >:( Kaufman walks away from contested mixed-use development in Short North After 20 public meetings, constant residential resistance and a string of area commission rejections, Brett Kaufman says he's walking away from a mixed-use development he wanted to build in the Short North. Technically, Kaufman's team requested to indefinitely table a proposal for the 10-story development at 23 W. 2nd Ave. after it failed to break a 3-3 deadlock of the Victorian Village Commission Wednesday night. But because of impending deadlines related to its tax abatements, he says he's out of time. "I don't see a path forward at this point with the project," the Kaufman Development CEO told me after the hour-long meeting. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2018/07/12/kaufman-walks-away-from-contested-mixed-use.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 12, 20186 yr Disappointing news. Will future developers want to waste time gambling on this neighborhood?
July 12, 20186 yr Columbus is a hot market. Something else will come around. Given the hideous project Kaufaman produced by Columbus Commons, I'd be thankful that they walked away from this project. Especially with that proposed black building. That might look decent in renderings, but I bet it would look terrible in actuality.
July 12, 20186 yr Not shocked, this development did not fit the area where it was located and given it's surroundings. If they would've scaled down to 5 stories and built something that was appropriate for the neighborhood it is in it would've been approved. But like my dad used to say they were "trying to fit 10lbs of sh*t in a 5lbs bag." It didn't fit and I'm glad the neighborhood fought back as strong as they did.
July 13, 20186 yr Not shocked, this development did not fit the area where it was located and given it's surroundings. If they would've scaled down to 5 stories and built something that was appropriate for the neighborhood it is in it would've been approved. But like my dad used to say they were "trying to fit 10lbs of sh*t in a 5lbs bag." It didn't fit and I'm glad the neighborhood fought back as strong as they did. "Appropriate for the neighborhood" NIMBY silliness. This project was exactly what Columbus needs more of.
July 13, 20186 yr Hopefully this is just a tactic to get more cooperation from the commission. Kaufman is one of the city’s best developers.
July 13, 20186 yr Not shocked, this development did not fit the area where it was located and given it's surroundings. If they would've scaled down to 5 stories and built something that was appropriate for the neighborhood it is in it would've been approved. But like my dad used to say they were "trying to fit 10lbs of sh*t in a 5lbs bag." It didn't fit and I'm glad the neighborhood fought back as strong as they did. The surface parking lot and vacant lot really blend in well with the fabric of the neighborhood though.
July 13, 20186 yr Hopefully this is just a tactic to get more cooperation from the commission. Kaufman is one of the city’s best developers. I think you'll find mixed review on their work - particularly 600 Goodale and 250 80 on the Commons. The VV Commission really needs to fill that 7th seat though. Kaufman altered their proposal. what, four times? Different heights, varying units, different parking setup. It was 3-3 every time. Spare me the "blot out the sun" talk. It'd be less than a block affected. Walk down the street to the park if you need the sun. Very Stable Genius
July 13, 20186 yr Hopefully this is just a tactic to get more cooperation from the commission. Kaufman is one of the city’s best developers. Spare me the "blot out the sun" talk. It'd be less than a block affected. Walk down the street to the park if you need the sun. The "blot out the sun" argument always kills me. Yea, if you plopped Rhode's Tower down right here you might have a bit of a shadow. A 10-14 story building is not going to do much damage though.
July 13, 20186 yr Hopefully this is just a tactic to get more cooperation from the commission. Kaufman is one of the city’s best developers. Spare me the "blot out the sun" talk. It'd be less than a block affected. Walk down the street to the park if you need the sun. The "blot out the sun" argument always kills me. Yea, if you plopped Rhode's Tower down right here you might have a bit of a shadow. A 10-14 story building is not going to do much damage though. Let's also not forget those using the "blot out the sun" argument have giant trees surrounding their house (per google maps) so its clearly NIMBYism at its worst. Gotta love all the character and integrity half paved surface lots contribute! Ridiculous.
July 13, 20186 yr Hopefully this is just a tactic to get more cooperation from the commission. Kaufman is one of the city’s best developers. I think you'll find mixed review on their work - particularly 600 Goodale and 250 80 on the Commons. I agree. I don't like everything they have done--in fact most of it is not my personal taste--but they use high quality materials, good design firms, and almost always do something outside of the box. Take a look at Gravity in Franklinton. That's a very bold step in terms of both design and investment at this point in the neighborhood's revitalization.
July 13, 20186 yr Now that this is 'on hold', is there any chance that the property involved with this project could be combined at some time with the strip mall at the intersection with High? Are there any plans for that little strip mall? If they could combine these properties they could go higher right along High. I have hated that little strip mall for nearly 35 years since that restaurant at the corner was called the Toll House Inn and the Short North was ungentrified.
July 13, 20186 yr ^Wood Companies owns that little strip mall, I believe. Unless they would acquire the Kaufman site, I see them holding onto the strip mall and High Street frontage for their own project in the future.
July 15, 20186 yr Not shocked, this development did not fit the area where it was located and given it's surroundings. If they would've scaled down to 5 stories and built something that was appropriate for the neighborhood it is in it would've been approved. But like my dad used to say they were "trying to fit 10lbs of sh*t in a 5lbs bag." It didn't fit and I'm glad the neighborhood fought back as strong as they did. First of all, a 9 story version was fully approved. So they could have just built that. There was almost no vocal opposition at the time. So this notion that something has to be 5 or less to "fit the neighborhood" is ridiculous But, the real killer of this project I have to say has been Kaufman, not NIMBYs or the VVC. They're the ones who came back and opened a can of worms by seeking to alter the previous approval and revise the project to 14 stories. That brought people out of the woodwork, and they didn't really have any compelling story prepared to sell the benefits of a vastly larger project to the community The fact that they ended up going back down to 10 in the latest version also demonstrates that they over-asked as far as what was really necessary to make the project viable. If they'd gone straight from the approved 9-story version and sought to change it to the final 10-story one from this month I think it would have passed easily, flying under the radar as a minor revision with no one being stirred up enough to come out and oppose it in meaningful numbers Also, the other deadline they were working against was needing it approved this summer to avoid having to comply with the city's new affordable housing requirements for the Short North. This is one of the last really large development sites in the neighborhood, and now whatever project is eventually proposed and built here will also be providing a sizeable affordable housing component. That's the kind of added community benefit that I think could have swayed people into accepting a trade off for a somewhat denser or larger project because it is giving something more tangible back to the area as a result. Meaningful investment in public art would also be an example of such a benefit, neither of which we saw materialize with this project Actively seeking to avoid the affordable housing rules is really what's putting this on ice right now more than anything else. That appears to be a hard deadline they were up against, which is now forcing them to regroup Finally, Kaufman still owns this land. They weren't just exploring an option on it, they've already purchased it and spent several million dollars. They'll come back and propose something else to build here, or sell it to another developer who will. I supported this project, but it's not the end of the world to lose it
July 18, 20186 yr Not shocked, this development did not fit the area where it was located and given it's surroundings. If they would've scaled down to 5 stories and built something that was appropriate for the neighborhood it is in it would've been approved. But like my dad used to say they were "trying to fit 10lbs of sh*t in a 5lbs bag." It didn't fit and I'm glad the neighborhood fought back as strong as they did. First of all, a 9 story version was fully approved. So they could have just built that. There was almost no vocal opposition at the time. So this notion that something has to be 5 or less to "fit the neighborhood" is ridiculous But, the real killer of this project I have to say has been Kaufman, not NIMBYs or the VVC. They're the ones who came back and opened a can of worms by seeking to alter the previous approval and revise the project to 14 stories. That brought people out of the woodwork, and they didn't really have any compelling story prepared to sell the benefits of a vastly larger project to the community The fact that they ended up going back down to 10 in the latest version also demonstrates that they over-asked as far as what was really necessary to make the project viable. If they'd gone straight from the approved 9-story version and sought to change it to the final 10-story one from this month I think it would have passed easily, flying under the radar as a minor revision with no one being stirred up enough to come out and oppose it in meaningful numbers Also, the other deadline they were working against was needing it approved this summer to avoid having to comply with the city's new affordable housing requirements for the Short North. This is one of the last really large development sites in the neighborhood, and now whatever project is eventually proposed and built here will also be providing a sizeable affordable housing component. That's the kind of added community benefit that I think could have swayed people into accepting a trade off for a somewhat denser or larger project because it is giving something more tangible back to the area as a result. Meaningful investment in public art would also be an example of such a benefit, neither of which we saw materialize with this project Actively seeking to avoid the affordable housing rules is really what's putting this on ice right now more than anything else. That appears to be a hard deadline they were up against, which is now forcing them to regroup Finally, Kaufman still owns this land. They weren't just exploring an option on it, they've already purchased it and spent several million dollars. They'll come back and propose something else to build here, or sell it to another developer who will. I supported this project, but it's not the end of the world to lose it Basically what you just said is they got greedy, which is true. However even at 9 stories the impact would've been felt. This project at 3-4 stories on Price and up to 6 towards High would've gotten immediate approval and would've been appropriate. *Side Note: LOL to the person who said that Kaufman uses high grade materials, look at 600 Goodale and their two projects downtown(the Commons is atrocious at best). The project in Franklinton is by far their best and even it is questionable.
July 24, 20186 yr So Kaufman may get another shot (or two) after all, if he wants them - Columbus pushes back deadline to get in under existing tax-incentive rules Columbus is pushing back the deadline by two months for developers to get projects grandfathered under the city’s current tax-incentive rules instead of meeting new ones the Columbus City Council is expected to approve next week. Developers that receive project approval by Sept. 30 will be eligible for incentives under the city’s current rules. Those projects also will need foundation permits by Dec. 31 to be eligible. http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/20180723/columbus-pushes-back-deadline-to-get-in-under-existing-tax-incentive-rules
July 24, 20186 yr ^^ Hopefully they will comeback with something similar to the original proposal. I have to admit that I never liked the look of the tallest part of the last proposal-it looked too dark to me and too much like what they built at Columbus Commons.
July 25, 20186 yr Question because I wasn't sure... why couldn't Kaufman just push the issue and, if rejected by the VV commission, not just take the matter to the City of Columbus? Don't they have the power to override any neighborhood commission? Perhaps it's not standard practice, but I seem to remember this happening before on other projects.
July 25, 20186 yr Question because I wasn't sure... why couldn't Kaufman just push the issue and, if rejected by the VV commission, not just take the matter to the City of Columbus? Don't they have the power to override any neighborhood commission? Perhaps it's not standard practice, but I seem to remember this happening before on other projects. Yes, Kaufman could have/still can technically just surpass the commission and go straight to the city. The commission serves as a board of recommendation basically for the city, it handles and reviews projects for what equals a certificate of appropriateness and then the city will take over for final approval and permitting. While a developer can decide to surpass the commission it's kind of a faux pas if you plan on ever developing in that area again. While the city development board does have final say, they will rarely go against the will of the commissions and it's always better to stay on the good side of these commissions seeing as they serve the residents in the area that you're building within. While I do believe the commissions have the best intentions, I feel that they have pushed back too much recently with projects. What happened with Kaufman shelving the project is what I always imagined would happen eventually and that would become the breaking point. Kaufman pushed and the commission pushed, and while Kaufman made concessions and was willing to work with them, that good faith was not necessarily reciprocated, leading to where we are now. An interesting walk down memory lane would show you that a similar situation took place with Parkside on Pearl. What happens next? My guess is Kaufman waits until the 7th empty seat is filled and returns (hopefully with the 14 story version) to regain approval. We shall see.
August 6, 20186 yr I wanted to look back at a cluster of new-construction projects located near what was formerly known as Doctors Hospital at Dennison & W. 3rd avenues. Doctors Hospital was a major full-service hospital in Columbus that was located in Victorian Village probably before the area was known as Victorian Village. As the need for hospital parking grew, some surrounding neighborhood blocks were turned into surface parking lots. Eventually, through mergers and partnerships, Doctors Hospital became part of the OhioHealth system. OhioHealth prioritized two other nearby hospitals - Grant located downtown and Riverside located further north - and closed Doctors as a full-service hospital. Doctors was later purchased by Select Specialty Hospitals and now operates as a specialized care center for patients with acute or chronic respiratory disorders. Since it is no longer a full-service facility, its parking needs are reduced. This, combined with the increasing value of property in Victorian Village and the market for new residential units, has led to some of these surface parking lots being sold off for development projects. Here is a recap of some in this area: This is an aerial of the Dennison & W. 3rd area (aka The Dennison Curve) where three phases of a development (named Aston for the mid-block alley) was built across Dennison from the former Doctors Hospital: Here is a view of that Dennison & W. 3rd area in 2009 when it was surface parking: Here is that same area showing the first two phases of the residential development that replaced the surface lots. To the left is the 59-unit Aston Place apartment building. Across the mid-block alley is the first of two 10-unit Aston Row condos projects. This one has entrances that face the mid-block alley: This is 59-unit Aston Place apartment building as seen from W. 3rd Avenue as it curves into Dennison Avenue. The building to the right is the former Doctors Hospital complex: Back to Dennison Avenue at the mid-block alley for a 2015 view. Again, to the left is the 59-unit Aston Place apartment building and to the right is the first of two 10-unit Aston Row condos projects. To the right of that is a grassy lot that will be the second 10-unit Aston Row condo project in this area: This is a 2017 view showing the second 10-unit Aston Row condo project on that formerly grassy lot: This is a view from Dennison and Starr avenues. This shows the second 10-unit Aston Row condo project that fronts onto Starr Avenue. Note that the Starr Avenue portion was built in a traditional "Victorian" style to blend with the other historic Victorian style houses on Starr. The Starr portion was also built to appear as single-family houses, instead of looking like a 10-unit building: Here is a closer view of that "traditional Victorian" portion of the Aston projects facing Starr Avenue:
August 6, 20186 yr This is a 2009 view of the southwest corner of Dennison and 3rd/Starr avenues. It is diagonally opposed those new Victorian-style condos in the previous post. This was a surface parking lot for the hospital that stretched an entire block from 3rd/Starr to 2nd avenues: This is the same view from 2017 showing one of two new residential developments built on the surface lot. This is the Jerome Apartments, a 54-unit apartment building: This is a 2017 view of the 2nd & Dennison corner of the former surface parking lot. This is now the Truberry on Second Condos, a 12-unit condo building: A before-and-after aerial from 2017 for these two projects was previously shown in this thread at https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,3470.msg847960.html#msg847960
August 6, 20186 yr Across the street from the Jerome Apartments and those new Victorian-style condos is an existing two-story office building with a third-story loft level: It was some news from CU about a new business going into this building, actually inspired me to do the above residential development updates for this Doctors Hospital adjacent area. The news was that Yoga On High was moved from its High Street location into this office building at 1020 Dennison Avenue: https://www.columbusunderground.com/yoga-on-high-completes-move-now-open-on-dennison-yoga-near-me-na1 Yoga On High moving into this building isn't the biggest development news. And it certainly isn't as transformative as those residential projects getting built on the nearby surface parking lots. But Yoga On High moving from its High Street location onto a prominent neighboring street is another example of how the continuing Short North evolution is pushing some neighborhood businesses into surrounding areas, like Victorian Village. In the case of Yoga On High, they made a very literal and visible move from High Street to Dennison Avenue on July 29th. Below is a photo of over 120 past and present Yoga on High students and local yoga teachers came together for a last yoga class at the old High Street location and a procession to the new studio at 1020 Dennison Avenue: CU has a more complete photo-tour of Yoga On High's new location (see the link in this post). But here's a photo of that third-floor loft space that has windows facing Dennison being used for a yoga class:
August 6, 20186 yr Great job! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 6, 20186 yr Yeah, nice synopsis. I like these projects and the thoughtful increase in density. There are a few more surface lots in the area ripe for redevelopment.
August 11, 20186 yr ^ Either that, or "Yoga Off High" could work It is pretty amazing how this little corner has been totally redeveloped in so short a time. Only way I would have improved it would have been including a small storefront at the corner of the Jerome project
September 18, 20186 yr ^That should be put on billboards everywhere. Also, Hubbard looks great. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
December 8, 20186 yr Business First has a 14-image slideshow of the Hubbard Park Place project at the southeast corner of Hubbard & Park. The nearly finished $40 million development with 101 apartments and 12,000 square feet of office space is being built by Wood Cos. and Schiff Capital Group: SLIDESHOW: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2018/12/07/photos-move-in-begins-at-short-norths-newest-mid.html
December 28, 20186 yr Who in the world rents these $5k/month apartments? And what am I doing with my life that I can't? Like OMG.
December 28, 20186 yr 16 minutes ago, Zyrokai said: Who in the world rents these $5k/month apartments? And what am I doing with my life that I can't? Like OMG. Plus, all the 4k+ /mo units were spoken for before construction was even close to being completed. Really beginning to realize Columbus has some deeper pockets than I initially thought.
March 10, 20196 yr The below post about the wonderful (and expensive) Hubbard Park Place was also posted in the Short North thread. Technically, this is located in the Victorian Village neighborhood (as we define it here at Urban Ohio) of the Short North. And since we have a separate Victorian Village thread (and have previously posted Hubbard Park Place photos here too) I am copying this post into this thread as well. By the way, thanks to aderwent for originally posting this Dispatch story - those photos that go along with it are extraordinary! On 3/9/2019 at 11:13 AM, aderwent said: Short North apartment complex has premium amenities, premium rents "Hubbard Park Place, 776 Park St., rents two 1,553-square-foot, two-bedroom units on the fifth floor for $4,850 a month each, making them the highest-priced apartments in Columbus. “We’re delivering a product that hasn’t been seen in Columbus,” said Tyler Puhl, leasing manager for the developer, Wood Cos. Wood Cos. and Schiff Capital Group developed Hubbard Park Place, one of three complexes in the city with monthly rents that reach $4,000 or more. The Brunner Building, also developed by the Wood Cos., has three penthouses that rent for $4,000 a month. “We spared no expense at Hubbard Park Place,” said Michael Schiff, owner of Schiff Capital Group. 'It has all the nicest finishes possible.'" https://www.dispatch.com/business/20190308/short-north-apartment-complex-has-premium-amenities-premium-rents
March 10, 20196 yr Although Hubbard Park Place is in Victorian Village, it had to adhere to the Short North Design guidelines. Thus, I consider it a Short North property.
March 11, 20196 yr ^ The reason we have a separate Victorian Village construction thread (and Italian Village construction thread) is because these projects were starting to get buried by the sheer number of Short North construction projects (i.e. projects fronting onto High Street). So in 2015, for purposes of clarity, Urban Ohio moved project posts from the Short North thread into either the Victorian Village or Italian Village thread if they weren't fronting High Street. The Hubbard Park Place project doesn't front onto High Street - Wall Street(Alley) separates its development site from the High Street parcels that would be included in the Short North construction thread. That was why I - as a moderator of this site - included a copy of this Hubbard Park Place post in this VV thread. Plus, discussion and photos of it were already here, so it additionally made sense to finish off discussion of this project with these completed photos.
April 4, 20196 yr From the latest CU construction roundup posted 3/22 at https://www.columbusunderground.com/construction-roundup-short-north-university-district - another view of Hubbard Park Place. This one from the street level at the corner of Park Street and Hubbard Avenue. The Moxy Hotel project is also visible down Hubbard Avenue in the background:
June 19, 20195 yr Interesting little profile of an infill house built in the historic Victorian Village neighborhood in a modern style: https://www.columbusnavigator.com/modern-home-victorian-village/ The lot before the infill house was built: The same lot after the infill house was built:
September 10, 20195 yr 14 minutes ago, cbussoccer said: Is the elephant fountain still turned off in Goodale? Has been all summer, thing has been nothing but a headache since it was designed.
September 10, 20195 yr 1 minute ago, DevolsDance said: Has been all summer, thing has been nothing but a headache since it was designed. Do you know why it's always off? It's a shame because it's such a cool feature when it's actually working.
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