It'll be pretty interesting to see what goes into this development. They have done everything they can to get a green light on this project, and I hope the concessions they made does not equate into a rather haphazardly done development.  I do not know what to expect in terms of retail mix, but with the current tenants along Glenway I would imagine either some will move to the development of there will be some retailers that people would not think could survive on the West Side. All in all though, this project will continue to change the Harrison Avenue corridor into a traffic filled, developed corridor, and Green Township will certainly reap the benefits of property taxes on this development. I just hope they consider something to upgrade the roads to support this and future developments.

^ God, the last thing we need is Harrison turning into another Colerain Ave.

This thing is going to suck.  Count on it.

 

^You are probably going to be right, but I can hold my breath for something decent. If not, well I can still keep my Patronages elsewhere.

 

God, the last thing we need is Harrison turning into another Colerain Ave.

 

I've seen the corridor studies, and I can safely say that it has the potential to be worse.  At least they are moving Rybolt Road, that will make the interchange work better.

From the 2/21/06 Enquirer:

 

 

Legacy Place change gets OK

Mall downsized from 'upscale'

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

GREEN TOWNSHIP - Legacy Place drew a packed house Monday night as the shopping center took a step toward becoming a reality.

 

During a passionate debate at Green Township's administrative complex, the Land Use Planning Committee endorsed by a 9-1 vote a land-use change for a downsized version of the shopping center.

 

Click on link for article.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060221/NEWS01/602210336/1056/rss02

 

I've said it once and i'll say it again.  The Enquirer consistantly misrepresents stories.  I attended this meetin last night.  The developer never mentioned anything about downsizing the development from 'upscale' he just did not want to tagged with promising a vague term (upscale).  The architecture of this development is unmatched, for its kind, in Cincinnati.  For this I would expect the developer (Mr. Silverman) to actively pursue 'upscale' tenants.  He mentioned that would be he primary choice of tenant, and that those retailers love the demographics of this particular area.

 

As for the Panera Bread and Ruby Tuesday.  He did not mention them as being potential tenants, but rather those are the types of restaurants that are interested in this particular demographic and location.  He was pressured into commenting on a specific tenant by those in attendance.

 

ENQUIRER = MISREPRESENTATION :x

They used "upscale" in regards to the words that the developer chose to use to describe it, having backed off of referring to it as "upscale".  I don't think that's a misrepresentation.

I feel that the developer chose to back away from that term 'upscale' because of the fact that it is so vague.  I got this from the speech he gave to the planning and land use people for Green Twp.  Now I would love to give the Enquirer the benefit of the doubt...but I walked out of that meeting and knew that the article in todays paper would be written in a certain manner portraying the different parties as if they are characters in a story.  Residents = Good Guy......Developer = Villian.  This may usually true, but I wish that the Enquirer would cover their stories in a fair manner instead of practicing the 'yellow' journalism that I have grown to know.

Personally, I think this project will be good for the entire west side.   And I am one of those residents in the area of the proposed shopping center.   I also work in the Western Hills Plaza which, as everyone who lives on the west side says is sinking into a hole that leads to hell.

 

Here is the scoop,  and this is only hearsay from the newest owners of the Western Hills Plaza.

 

A New Jersey company called New Plan bought the Plaza in Nov.  These guys are the same company that bought and remodeled the Western Village across from the Plaza (New Kroger).  One  of the new mall managers of the plaza has said that this spring you will start to see some changes to the shopping center itself.  I know with Media Play, Pier 1, and Dress Barn all leaving within the last month, it has left locals feeling uneasy, but by Kroger originally being the anchor tenant and them moving across the street, they have now voided everybody's lease. So everyone in the plaza is free to go.   The newest RUMORS are that Sears could go sometime in the future, but due to the fact they merged with K-mart, the talk is of a rebuild where the current K-mart is in Manchester Plaza.  NOT A BAD THING IN MY OPINION!!!   Staples is at the end of their ten year lease and have expressed interest on Harrison ave. as well.  Keep in mind that New Plan is planning on sticking some serious money into the Western Hills Plaza so with so many stores empty, this makes the progress of possibly redoing the entire campus easier which involves alot of wasted space behind the current layout of the existing structures.  ( You will see what I mean if you look at the plaza from google earth)

 

I will do some more digging on this issue, but I believe that Manchester, WHP, and the new proposed center on Harrison will ultimately be a renewal for the whole area.   (FINGERS CROSSED).

^ I sure hope this is good for Western Hills Plaza.  I grew up in Western Hills, and I used to walk to WHP. 

I just went onto New Plans web page and found that they have now acquired the Delhi shopping center too.  This is another shopping center that has been hurting lately.   I hope they follow through with sticking as much if not more money into redoing these centers as they did with the Western Village.   In the last 20 years, the previous owners of all of these properties spent little or no money at all to upkeep and modernize these properties.     So we will see what happens!!!!!

Just to fill everyone in on what is actually being dealt with...

 

this is a site plan for the original 600,000+ sq. ft. development:

 

Harrison Ave. is to the east, I-74 is well north, Westwood Northern Blvd. is just southeast, and the natural areas under debate are where the site plan sits and to the immediate west.

 

 

 

 

I am trying to find the modified plan and will post it as soon as I find it.

Citizens have mall in mind

But it differs from Legacy developers'

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

GREEN TOWNSHIP - They swear they are not a bunch of tree huggers.

 

 

MAP:  http://cmsimg.enquirer.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AB&Date=20060312&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=603120390&Ref=V1&Profile=1056&MaxW=315&border=1

 

Citizens for the Preservation of a Safe, Clean Green Township like upscale shopping centers and sensible development as much as the next person. Maybe even more so.

 

Click on link for article..

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060312/NEWS01/603120390/1056

It is a great point.  This development will still be below the level of Harrison Ave.  That is a terrible idea!!!  In my idea that is probably the main reasoning behind Manchester Plazas failure.  It is hard to see from the road and what you do see is a mess of concrete lurking below.

 

I would much prefer a smaller/denser development that the opposing group is mentioning.  I think most of us on here would say that though.  What Green Twp. (or any twp.) needs is more variety in their developments.  Townships often focus on big-box and sprawling subdivisions, both of which are a strain on resources and thus create an economic situation for the twp. (see Delhi Twp, just south of Green Twp.)

I think SOME resistance on these projects is a good thing.  It forces the developer to give the people of that community somewhat of a say.   But I don't actually understand the intentions or this group.   They might have 2000 signatures but, I am only hearing negative points from two people in newspapers that I never believe until I find out for myself anyway.  If you were to go to a Westside shopping center and poll people,  I KNOW THAT 95% OF THE PEOPLE WOULD BE FOR THIS PROJECT.  I had over ten conversations with people from Westwood, Green, Cheviot, Delhi, and Lawrenceburg yesterday.  All that I talked to want something new and different.  The only thing this resistance is going to do is prolong the whole process for no apparent reason.  They have scaled the project down from 99 to 65 acres.   That is what SAFE wanted.  Now they say it needs to be 63 acres with more green space????????   I am for the smaller Legacy and some green space between the residential and commercial districts.   Why is SAFE saying they are going to fight it till the end? They have accomplished the smaller center.  Maybe we should do away with all development firms and just start letting these neighbors that think they know how to design a retail center have a crack at it.   ha!  This shouldn't even be an issue due to the fact that everyone in every westside neighborhood is worried about the current conditions on Glenway ave.(Different subject I know, but I think this will soon become part of the conversation in the near future)

 

Any other Westsiders have an opinion on this?

 

P.S.  Newest news is that Steve and Berrys is coming to Glenway Crossing.  People are pumped about this if it is true!

^I feel that this project is unneccessary.  I have felt for some time that Green Twp. needs to focus on more office development, much like the Huff Realty office bldg. further down Harrison.  It is true that even though Glenway Crossings and Western Hills Plaza are not in Green Twp. but they do directly serve its residents and therefore cannot be overlooked.

 

Some more redevelopment needs to be done in the current stock of business strips (Glenway Crossings, Western Hills Plaza, Delhi Pike, Manchester Plaza) before they go forth with additional retail space.  What they did with the former Swallens location is brilliant turning it into a Best Buy, Panera Bread, Chipotle, Dicks, etc.  This was a great project that has yielded wonderful results.  Lets look to more of that than digging another ditch along Harrison Ave.

^^I feel that this development is only the beginning of the transformation of Harrison Avenue into the next congested, commercially oriented road in Hamilton County. For big box retailers Harrison Avenue has the highway access that Glenway does not, and has the "open" land necessary to be able not have to do massive teardowns. People should be wary of this future, the infrastructure to support the development of the corridor is not there, and planned improvements for the corridor do not address growth caused by potential commercial developments.

 

It seems that over the last few years Green Township has been really Gung Ho about developing itself out. There are so many subdivisions going in all over the place (Major example Ruwe's Oak), and one can see Commercial Available signs all along Harrison from Cheviot to Colerain Township. I just hope that they remember that there is a cost associated with all this development, and as it stands right now there just is not a sufficient roadway infrastructure for what is occurring in Green Township. I fear that the growing pains we see in Warren and Butler County may soon be coming to Western Hamilton County, and this project, along with many others, are going to get that ball rolling.

It will be built. Hamilton county needs the tax dollars to help pay for the stadiums.

please God let developers in Hamilton County learn how to develop smooth flowing corridors.  I dont want another Colerain.

please God let developers in Hamilton County learn how to develop smooth flowing corridors.  I dont want another Colerain.

 

Well it wont be another Colerain Ave. due to more strict zoning codes/regulations.  But, it will only be a slight improvement from that if they continue down the path they are on.

Legacy Place a unanimous winner

Downsized shopping center passes 3-0 in trustees' vote

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

GREEN TWP. - It's unanimous: Green Township trustees like the down-sized version of Legacy Place.

 

Click on link for article.

http://www.legacyplacemall.com/

 

 

 

Ummm..... those pictures represent the original proposal not the latest from what I have researched on the subject.  Any one have the new plans?

No he is correct...this is the new proposal.  Compare the two:

 

1st Proposal:

 

2nd Proposal:

 

You can see how the second plan takes up less of the land under speculation.  This land will still be part of the project, however, it will not include structures on it.

 

The two plans are similar, even in land use size.  This was the reason for opposition from the Clean Green Township organization.  The reworked proposal still eats up a lot of natural area!

Silverman promised "the nicest shopping destination in Green Township."

 

Wow, that is so vague! 

I stand corrected.  I support the shopping center.  The west side needs some thing to balance it out with the east.  Has anyone noticed all the new homes on the westside being built for 400k -600k?  The westside is coming into its own.  Now if only the region can pull together and support the heart of the metro we would really be a very cool place!

Legacy Place has a neighbor

Green trustees vote to acquire property next to proposed shopping area for township offices

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

GREEN TWP. - Legacy Place and Green Township's Police Department and administrative complex soon could be neighbors.

 

No link available.

County to vote on Legacy Place

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

GREEN TWP. - Tim Mara could be back in the referendum business Wednesday.

 

It all depends how Hamilton County commissioners vote on Legacy Place, the proposed West Side shopping center.

 

Click on link for article.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060606/NEWS01/606060336/-1/rss

 

I foresee the San Mar Gale ultimatium:

 

From the Hamilton County Rural Zoning Resolution:

 

Residential Zone "B"

Minimum Lot Size: 10,500 sq feet = 0.241 acre

 

Legacy place just happens to be Zoned Residental B

Proposed Legacy Place Site: 63 acres.

Possible Homes for Legacy Place: 261 homes

 

Total Site Acreage: 76 + 63 acres = 139 acres

Possible homes For Total Site: 576 homes

 

Legacy Place vote delayed

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

For want of a second, Green Township’s proposed Legacy Place shopping center is on hold for a week.

 

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060607/NEWS01/306070029

that is one awful plan.

>please God let developers in Hamilton County learn how to develop smooth flowing corridors.  I dont want another Colerain.

 

People in Cincinnati hold up Colerain as being the bar so far as suburban strips go -- there are actually many much worse strips around the country.  Kingston Pike in Knoxville, Airport Boulevard in Mobile, they are all much longer and much more congested.  I come back and drive the Colerain strip sometimes and can't believe how short and what a non-event it is compared to the hellacious conditions in the suburbs of the South. 

 

That said, kill this project.  What a joke.  All these dumpy centers are sitting there waiting to be redeveloped.   

^---  Yes, I think Beechmont Avenue is four times as bad as Colerain, but Colerain is the traditional whipping-boy for traffic for some reason.

 

 

From the 6/15/06 Enquirer:

 

 

Legacy Place vote again is far from definitive

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

Déjà vu struck the Hamilton County Board of Commissioners meeting Wednesday, and left the proposed Legacy Place shopping center in a possible legal limbo.

 

Click on link for article.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060615/NEWS01/606150348/1056

 

From the 7/5/06 Western Hills Press:

 

 

Opposition gathers names to stop mall

BY KURT BACKSCHEIDER | COMMUNITY PRESS STAFF WRITER

 

GREEN TWP. -- Residents fighting the proposed Legacy Place development are busy canvassing the community collecting signatures.

 

Click on link for article.

http://news.communitypress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060705/NEWS01/607050747/1067/Local

 

Well I am not a fan of the development but that doesn't mean that I don't think that retail development at this location shouldn't happen.  My problem is the awful surface lots in the center of the project and more than likely the typical generic chains, this place looks like nothing more than a newer strip mall filled with the typical Dick's Sporting Goods, Bed Bath & Beyond, Petsmart, Pier One, Borders & a Michael's Crafts, throw in a Great Clips & Game Stop and you have a typical suburban strip mall in 2006.  So sad while older strip malls are left abandoned all over the west side of Cincinnati.

 

Do you think this place would bring in new retail or would it just be shuffling other chains around the community leaving more strip malls abandoned?

 

Lastly I will take Colerain over horrid Glenway Ave.  Glenway is one of the sadest strips in Cincinnati IMO.  You can tell it used to have beautiful old walkable business districts but it was butchered by urban renewal so now you have buildings that are up against the road and others set back in a typical suburban setting which leaves a terrible looking strip.  Couple that with some of the 4 lanes that still have street side parking, abandoned store fronts, an over abundance of powerlines and telephone poles and you are left with one big clusterf*ck. 

Lastly I will take Colerain over horrid Glenway Ave.  Glenway is one of the sadest strips in Cincinnati IMO.  You can tell it used to have beautiful old walkable business districts but it was butchered by urban renewal so now you have buildings that are up against the road and others set back in a typical suburban setting which leaves a terrible looking strip.  Couple that with some of the 4 lanes that still have street side parking, abandoned store fronts, an over abundance of powerlines and telephone poles and you are left with one big clusterf*ck. 

 

Soo...are you trying to say that you do not enjoy the westside shopping experience of Glenway Ave?? :lol: :lol:

Do you think this place would bring in new retail or would it just be shuffling other chains around the community leaving more strip malls abandoned? 

 

I would say that it will just be a reshuffling with nothing really new to the area, similar to what Stone Creek Town Center will have at 275 and Colerain.

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7835.0

 

In other words...Meijer, Bed Bath and Beyond, possibly a FREAKING CHILI'S....

 

I've spent a lot time at places like Phillips Swim Club, Western Bowl, Front Porch, and Zen and Now. I miss Price Hill Chili so badly but my ex girlfriend works there and I don't particularly care to run into her. Personally just from my own perception of the west side's potential, I think they should work on strengthening the areas already developed and not try to expand out atleast until Glenway is better. What these developers need to realize though is that the west side is for the most part, a blue collar area. Lets face it. The west side is already struggling with regular businesses that target all demographics. People in Price Hill shop in Delhi unless it's an emergency and P-Hill businesses get no love. The business district in Cheviot is actually quite underrated but like most things on that side of town, it gets overlooked. There's not much wealth on the west side, and definitely not enough to sustain upscale shopping. Developers know the feasibility within the demographics, and my guess is that by saying "upscale" they assume people are more likely to approve it. Speaking of upscale I highly recommend The Cabana on the river in Saylor Park, seriously...you guys would love this place. The tables and the bar and everything are on a large wooden deck outside, yet in the shade and overlooking the river. It's an amazing asset to the west side. Sorry for going off topic a little...

^Dont get me wrong, I hate this project.  But I would disagree that there is no/not enough wealth on the westside of Cincinnati to support upscale shopping.  It is known that there are large pockets of wealth (millionaires) throughout the westside.  You may even be shocked to hear that Delhi and Price Hill have their fair share of wealth.  Look no further than the very expensive/elite Western Hills Country Club.  Not to mention the huge amount of people who pay to send their children to private schools on the westside.  This is very expensive, and takes a lot of money to pay for.

 

On top of all this, where the development is, all of the new housing being built there is no cheaper than $300,000.  This is one of few, if any, areas gaining population in Hamilton County and it is a very wealthy population.  Just take a drive down Rybolt Rd and go through some of the various new neighborhoods...notice all of the BMW's, Lexus', and Mecedes'.

 

The westside is bluecollar, but it is also careful with its money.  Much fewer people on the westside (compared to eastside) are making payments on their homes/cars.  They outright own them, and that is wealth that cannot be seen with the untrained eye.

Most of the people I know that went to Elder have to take out loans to pay for their own college...just because they went to private schools it doesn't mean they're wealthy. I've been to parties on the richer subdivisions on the west side (something farms??) houses probably in the 800k-1.2m range, but I just don't think it's enough to sustain a big upscale development. That could also depend on what they consider upscale though. When I think upscale I think Cheesecake Factory, Jos. A. Bank, etc. They probably consider a Gap, JC Pennys, and Steak n Shake to be upscale in an effort to get everyone excited about the development.

^ I think there is enough wealth on the west side to support some upscale development, but I don't think there is enough to support a complex as large as Legacy Place.

 

I don't think people consider JC Penneys or Steak n Shake to be upscale.  However, I do agree that just because someone went to Elder, Mercy, etc. that they are wealthy.  Quite a few families really cut back on spending in other areas so they can pay for these schools.

The burgeoning developments on the West Side could easily support Legacy Place. I'll go out on a limb an say I am hopeful that this location will be as nice as Bridgewater Falls, which is not very nice at all. Let's face it, it does not take much to become the nicest location on the West Side, and if you define your boundaries as a west sider would, it still would be if Stone Creek turns out nicer. I am not necessarily knocking on the existing Glenway outlets, but they just aren't that nice to make "the nicest destination on the West Side" seem very nice.

 

Now, I wish that Manchester Plaza is redeveloped before Legacy Place is built. That would be nice, however, I just don't see that happening. I also don't know if I like a crap load of houses going on to the property as the current zoning would allow, and that could be plan B is Mr. Mara successfully gets his referendum passed. I honestly don't know which option is better. Perhaps as more time passes we shall know, but one thing is certain, greenspace in Green Township won't stay green forever unless it is owned by the the government. 

 

PS: Contrary to popular belief, lots of rich people live on the West Side.

Now, I wish that Manchester Plaza is redeveloped before Legacy Place is built. That would be nice, however, I just don't see that happening. 

 

It is happening as we speak....there has been some major/significant progress made on the redevelopment of Manchester Plaza just recently.  I will try to get some pics for you guys, but they have broken up the old Kroger (and a neighboring spot) into three new distinct storefronts.  I would imagine they are doing this to attract a different business, one that wants a space larger than a fabric store but smaller than a Kroger store.

When I say redevelopment, I mean make it "nice." The BMV and Hancock Fabrics are not necessarily nice tenants, and given the existing tenants I seriously doubt anyone that is considered "nice" would ever move in.

I say well done....lets get this thing on the ballot where the voters can turn this thing down when the politicians missed their chance....I thought they were supposed to be representing the voter?!?!?  If this gets on the ballot, I believe that the project will go down in flames!!!

 

Legacy Place opponents to submit petitions

Group wants rezoning on November ballot

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

 

GREEN TWP. - They needed 1,422 signatures to put Legacy Place to a vote. They gathered about 3,100.

 

Citizens for the Preservation of a Safe Clean Green Township plan to present petitions today to Hamilton County commissioners.

 

Click on link for article.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060713/NEWS01/607130350/1056/rss02

 

I mentioned it ago and I'll mention it again, but if this is taken to a referendum than I only wonder how quickly plan B for this site will arise, one that can be built without a zoning change and one that will put lots of houses onto this site. I could be wrong about it, but I would be shocked if Silverman does not reveal a plan B if this goes to a referendum.

^Well it is my understanding that Silverman typically does commercial developments, not residential.  I would also seem to think the same amount of opposition would arise with a housing project.  The citizens are upset about the disruption to the natural environment and the inappropriate contortion of the land.  This would still hold true for a residential development and, IMO, the opposition would still be there for Plan B.....I know I would!

These are NOT pics of Legacy Place (not built yet)....but these are pics of the strip mall across the street from where Legacy Place is planning to go.  This strip mall has been a dump for some time (main tennant KMart), and some in the community wonder why build a new shopping center when there is one across the street sitting mainly vacant.

 

Well there are some major renovations going on at the run down strip mall and some new tenants have signed on (Dollar Tree, Aldi...I know sounds like it will complement the 'upscale' Legacy Place).  Bringing the list of tenants to:  KMart, BMV, Chinese Restaurant, Aldi, Dollar General, Dollar Tree, and Pizza Hut in the parking lot.

 

Here is an overview of the existing center, it looks as if they are continuing the rehab down the rest of the bldg:

 

Close up on the rehab work:

 

Here are a couple detailed shots of the rehab area.  I guess you can at least be happy that the new commercial design standards are in effect for this project, even though the center still sucks!

 

 

Finally here is the planned new entrance for (trumpets sound) Legacy Place!

Trustees make plans for Legacy Place

BY CLIFF RADEL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

 

GREEN TWP. - If a zoning change becomes reality, the Legacy Place shopping center would have no fast-food joints and no dirty bookstores. It would sit next to 80 acres of parkland, half of which the township plans to buy for $2.1 million.

 

Click on link for article.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060725/NEWS01/607250340/-1/rss

 

The links to your photos are dead, UncleRando, but I was at the Pizza Hut in the pictured plaza last night and I saw that one of the new tenants is Aldi.  BMV, K-Mart, and Aldi... now those are some high quality establishments to compete with Legacy Place. I also think that the "new" facade for Manchester Plaza looks really bad, but that is probably just me.

 

I don't know if I like the idea of the TIF paying for the park, as a certain road will need major improvements down the road, and hopefully the TIF can finance that and the acquisition of the parkland.