Posted January 27, 200817 yr It seems the tradition with Cincinnati rapid transit is to build it, never use it, and let it sit. I've been coming the internet trying to find some information on the city's bus terminal beneath Ft. Washington Way. From what I could find it was set to open in 2004 and serve as a bus terminal and bus parking area for visitors to the National Underground Freedom Center. I found an article on WCPO.com about how it was open for the the 2004 Red's opening day. I also know that they have directed traffic for the Flying Pig marathon through it before. However, I can't find any information as to if this thing is actually open or not. I tried to search these forums and google but just can't seem to find any solid info, if I'm looking in the wrong place please let me know. The transit center has caught my curiosity since I noticed it being built around the time Paul Brown Stadium was being built. But I had pretty much forgotten about it until this past Monday when I was down town shooting the MLK memorial march. As I was walking back to the U.S. Bank Arena where I parked my car, I headed down 2nd street and saw the entrances to the stairways. The first one I saw was locked. The second had a wooden board behind it's glass doors and chains around the door handles. This was the third one I came by... This entrance had both its doors unlocked, but looking down it didn't appear as if it was welcoming to anyone looking to ride a bus. As I held one door open looking down, a man came up next to me and said; "Oh, is this how you get to the subway?" "No, it's some sort of bus terminal the city built, but I don't think its finished and ready to be used yet." "Oh, I'm from Rhode Island, haven't been here in years, why is the door unlocked?" "I don't know, wanna go check it out?" "Sure!" So my new friend from Rhode Island and I descended the stairs into the dark. Down there this is about all that you can see (sorry for the grain in the photograph) I didn't see any buses, vehicles, or other people down there besides my Rhode Island friend. There were security cameras and I wasn't sure if I was supposed to be down there or not so I didn't really go any farther or looking for other stairwells, plus I had to get home for something else. We walked back up the stairs and parted ways. I figured someone here would know more about the transit center. Do they use it during the summer or anything or is it being delayed? I asked my dad about it but he seemed to know just as little as I did, in fact he said "I thought they built that for rail transit to be used there one day, I didn't know there was anything down there." So does anyone know what the city is planning to do with this place or if it actually ever gets any use?
January 27, 200817 yr It's a long story, but here are the key points: * When the new riverfront was being planned, we wanted to ensure that the stadiums looked like real buildings that came out to the curbs and weren't dominated by large, windswept plazas like the old Riverfront Stadium. This effort was successful with GABP, less-so with PBS. * One problem was, what to do with all the buses that used to park on the Riverfront Stadium Plaza for Bengals games and some Reds games? No one wanted them strewn around the new riverfront street grid, yet they had to remain close to those buildings. * So the solution was to build Second Street on structure and hide the buses under there, and today the Transit Center is used for that during Bengals games, Riverfest, Tall Stacks and a few other events. * Todd Portune wanted to run diesel trains through the riverfront east to Batavia and west to Lawrenceburg, but no one wanted trains running through the new riverfront park. It had taken two generations to buy up all the ROW's there, and no one wanted to turn the riverfront back into what it had been in the Thirties. * So Todd and others pushed to make the RTC able to accomodate about any kind of train that runs today. Overhead clearances were raised and huge fans were installed to handle the diesel exhaust. Most rail advocates are quite content to run light rail on Second and Third Streets and not hide it in the RTC, so, to a lot of us, this investment seemed a little overwrought. * The RTC is mostly worthless for the local bus service function performed by Government Square because buses can only enter it at the ends, at Central and at Broadway, so they would have to go way out of pattern to access it. Plus, it's pretty far from the center of office employment. * Today, one of the reasons given by state officials for pursuing the ill-conceived Eastern Corridor diesel rail project along the Eastern riverfront's Oasis Line goes something like this, "We have to utilize the state's investment in the Riverfront Transit Center better." To me, the RTC is a sunk cost, an overdesigned temple of future chic. Better to let sleeping dogs lie.
January 27, 200817 yr I don't want to steal jmeck's thunder, but he has a lot of information on the transit center, including articles and some really great photographs on his website: http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/transitcenter.html I've always hoped that the transit center will be better utilized after The Banks is completed and there's greater demand for that area of 2nd Street as a destination/embarkment point. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
January 27, 200817 yr Those entrances on 2nd Street sure do look cool though...and I have heard of them fooling out-of-towners, on more than one occasion, into thinking Cincy has a subway system.
January 27, 200817 yr Those entrances on 2nd Street sure do look cool though...and I have heard of them fooling out-of-towners, on more than one occasion, into thinking Cincy has a subway system. we do... kinda...
January 27, 200817 yr Thanks John and Jimmy for the info on the transit center. I had checked cincinnati-transit but I breezed over that article too quickly. Those entrances on 2nd Street sure do look cool though...and I have heard of them fooling out-of-towners, on more than one occasion, into thinking Cincy has a subway system. we do... kinda... Does anyone know if they'll be doing another tour of the subway lines again soon. I remember coming across some pictures on Fickr from a 2006 tour but haven't come across anything and attempts to contact the Cincinnati department of transportation have seem to meet dead ends.
January 27, 200817 yr They are offering tours of the Subway via the historical society ($55 per person) but you can't take pictures.
January 28, 200817 yr http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080124/LIFE/801240307/1035/LIFE
January 28, 200817 yr By the way, I don't want to criticize the architecture of the RTC. It's actually quite excellent. But the scope was way over the top for what was needed down there. The architects did what they were told to do with the budget that elected officials gave them. My worry is that the RTC just adds fuel to the fires set by people who want others to believe that transit investments are monuments to waste.
January 29, 200817 yr The subway tour is nice. I went a few years back. http://www.urbanohio.com/gallery/index.php?album=Southwest+Ohio%2FCincinnati%2FSubway+Tour Now back on topic :-D
January 29, 200817 yr * Todd Portune wanted to run diesel trains through the riverfront east to Batavia and west to Lawrenceburg, but no one wanted trains running through the new riverfront park. It had taken two generations to buy up all the ROW's there, and no one wanted to turn the riverfront back into what it had been in the Thirties. * So Todd and others pushed to make the RTC able to accomodate about any kind of train that runs today. Overhead clearances were raised and huge fans were installed to handle the diesel exhaust. Most rail advocates are quite content to run light rail on Second and Third Streets and not hide it in the RTC, so, to a lot of us, this investment seemed a little overwrought. * The RTC is mostly worthless for the local bus service function performed by Government Square because buses can only enter it at the ends, at Central and at Broadway, so they would have to go way out of pattern to access it. Plus, it's pretty far from the center of office employment. * Today, one of the reasons given by state officials for pursuing the ill-conceived Eastern Corridor diesel rail project along the Eastern riverfront's Oasis Line goes something like this, "We have to utilize the state's investment in the Riverfront Transit Center better." To me, the RTC is a sunk cost, an overdesigned temple of future chic. Better to let sleeping dogs lie. So the RTC is able to accommodate both the buses and a potential rail line? Would there be a problem with putting a light rail line through there? Where are potential east and west portals?
January 29, 200817 yr The east portal is to the left of this photo, you can see the mess which it empties out to: The problem here is that buses and any future trains will have to be given a police escort to travel through the crowds which surge out of this area after events. Also for games I think simply parking light rail trains on the track along the riverfront wouldn't be a big deal at all. As an entrance and exit during workdays I don't think the congestion here will be such an issue, but a single car accident that blocks the tracks and causes a trainload of people to be late for work could be devestating for its reputation. A transfer from the Transit Center to buses heading north to UC and other areas of the city requires a 3 block walk that many people would be unwilling to make, and a transfer to the streetcar, if it is built, will not be too popular until it is extended to the UC area. I think an eastside line to Milford would be very convienient for those people out there, but the 16-17 mile distance is what makes it prohibitively expensive for the projected ridership, and as John Schneider has pointed out, downtown via the Wasson Rd. line from Milford makes a lot more sense. It eliminates the whole bus transfer issue and adds more frequency to a light rail line between downtown and Xavier.
January 29, 200817 yr ^So the east portal is where those stairs are, or is it exactly over the street? Is it at the same height as Fort Washington Way? Hate to be a pain, but do you have a view of the west portal as well?
January 29, 200817 yr I see there are critics for planning ahead as well as not planning ahead...darned if you do darned if you don't
January 29, 200817 yr Here's the west 'portal'...its under the bridge in the shadows of PBS http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qhgjb87yq8k9&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=9221096&encType=1 Here's the east, under the bridges that split http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qhgsqp7yr29x&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=9223090&encType=1
January 29, 200817 yr ^^^ Excellent points. Do you think there is any chance of TANK utilizing it in the future? It seems like Government Square is Metro only (I could be wrong), so the Transit Center could serve a similar function for downtown workers commuting from NKY. Unfortunately, I don't work downtown and I only take the Southbank Shuttle, so I'm not sure where the other TANK buses run north of the river currently. Regarding potential auto accidents that could make a street-level train late, I don't think it would be too much of an issue. I can't imagine that would occur very often. I hate to bring up Portland again, because it gets annoying, but their light rail system runs on streets through the heart of downtown and it doesn't appear to be very affected by traffic backups and accidents.
January 29, 200817 yr The portals are under Second st. If you have ever been to a game at PBS, Many people tailgate in this area near the West portal.
January 29, 200817 yr I see there are critics for planning ahead as well as not planning ahead...darned if you do darned if you don't. I think it's more so that they might have gone overboard here. The way that 2nd Street is it could accommodate lightrail at grade...thus making this massive underground complex unnecessary. The whole buses angle makes sense, but could have been accomplished with much less investment. It is very rare that this will ever be a location for a high-speed rail stop, and even at that...it probably isn't adequate enough to accomodate needs of long distance rail travelers. With that said, I'm glad they were looking towards the future for a potential rail connection...but someone should have made up their mind and decided on either at a grade plan or below grade. One of the two is going to go underutilized.
January 29, 200817 yr I read a statistic about 10 years ago that on average only 15% of "future provisions" built into transit systems are used in the way in which they were envisioned. The New York subway is apparently filled with dozens and dozens of stub tunnels and other never-used elements for planned expansions. The big mistake here was that there was only a vague plan for routes and types of vehicles, meaning the transit center could only be vaguely designed. Also, the wall of piles driven under the FWW flood wall and center median for the decking prevent a subway routing into the transit center from Walnut St. without major surgery. The unused FWW provision, the ramp from 3rd St. to I-75N is a good example of a provision that might never be used depending on the Brent Spence Bridge design. I said it awhile ago, but it seems a similar structure under Third St. would have made a ton more sense, and been not much more expensive. The east portal could have emerged at almost the exact same location and the west could have linked much more directly with the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. In 1997 or 1998 I remember at the 11th hour the Broadway overpass design was changed so that Broadway would line up directly with the Taylor-Southgate Bridge, prior to that a much simpler overpass situation was planned. If I remember correctly that change, the 2nd St. ramp down to Pete Rose Way, and the Transit Center were the three major changes made to the design after the initial big money had been secured. Also the temporary Suspension Bridge overpass, if anyone remembers that.
January 29, 200817 yr I said it awhile ago, but it seems a similar structure under Third St. would have made a ton more sense, and been not much more expensive. The east portal could have emerged at almost the exact same location and the west could have linked much more directly with the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. IIRC There is a major interceptor sewer under 3rd Street that would have precluded that I think it's more so that they might have gone overboard here. The way that 2nd Street is it could accommodate lightrail at grade...thus making this massive underground complex unnecessary. I wonder if they didn't want to mix at grade light rail with the ends of 2nd St....they are basically off and on ramps Whats the rationale of using at grade light rail in this location rather than the below grade RTS?
January 29, 200817 yr Also, in regards to the 3rd St vs. 2nd St that jmecklenborg brings up... The new 2nd Street was basically built on a new alignment; thus no utilities to contend with..3rd's been there since day 1...so one can imangine how many utilities are under there!
January 29, 200817 yr Whats the rationale of using at grade light rail in this location rather than the below grade RTS? It could easily go either way...they just needed to choose one, but instead they prepped for both options. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if money weren't a limited resource, but it is. Placing it at grade would make the line more visable and also more of a feature of the urban fabric. Placing it below grade offers a cleaner flow (so-to-speak) for the line/station. There are pros and cons to each, but I just think one should have been pursued instead of two.
January 29, 200817 yr >The new 2nd Street was basically built on a new alignment; thus no utilities to contend with..#rd's been there since day 1...so one can imangine how many utilities are under there! Actually that 3rd St. sewer was rebuilt (combined overflow? Can't remember the terminology) during the reconstruction, but remember there would be no cross-street utilities there because of the FWW trench. There are likely some below the trench, but the transit center sits at approximately the same level as FWW's through lanes. The big main that runs through the subway feeds most if not all of the west side, whatever this new thing is under 3rd St. introduced a lot of redundancy into the system meaning the subway pipe is not so critical although the threat of it bursting is being used to prevent people from touring the subway other than times when it's planned to be drained.
January 29, 200817 yr >Actually that 3rd St. sewer was rebuilt (combined overflow? Can't remember the terminology) during the reconstruction, but remember there would be no cross-street utilities there because of the FWW trench. There are likely some below the trench, but the transit center sits at approximately the same level as FWW's through lanes. Combined Sewer...overflow---all the streets in downtown Cincy drain to 3rd street, as that's the natural slope. There must have been construction of a new intercepting sewer when the "3rd Street Distributor" was constructed (Old FWW) I think the FWW 2000 replaced that sewer with a much larger one to store the excess rainfall in the combined sewer but can't recall. it seems the logical place for it though. As far as utilities on 3rd...there are probably numerous ones that run along 3rd...I betcha a good portion of the power grid feeds UG from 3rd street, thats seemingly the natural route of the power lines from the substation down by Longworth Hall. Did you know that Cinergy...ehh Duke...installed a chilled water utility in downtown to supply buildings with chilled water for air conditioning http://www.secinfo.com/dREyb.94m.c.htm
January 29, 200817 yr ^ There's a big retention pipe under Third Street that has reduced our downtown CSO's from something like 30 per year to 3 or 4.
January 29, 200817 yr ^ There's a big retention pipe under Third Street that has reduced our downtown CSO's from something like 30 per year to 3 or 4. That's tremendous to hear.
February 2, 200817 yr The subway tour is nice. I went a few years back. http://www.urbanohio.com/gallery/index.php?album=Southwest+Ohio%2FCincinnati%2FSubway+Tour Now back on topic :-D Anyone have any idea as to why cameras are not permitted on the historical society's tour yet they were on the Cincinnati Advance ones?
November 1, 201113 yr In the comments section of the WCPO article, the reporter claims to be from New York City. I guess nobody told him about the subway platforms at 63rd and Lexington, which have sat disused for decades while waiting to be incorporated into the Second Avenue Subway project. You could say they're a "waste of taxpayer money" up until the moment they open to passenger service in a few more years, at which point they become an example of foresight and long-term planning.
November 1, 201113 yr I don't think anyone's happy about the transit center's lack of use. But the same people will be complaining when rail does arrive and all those charter buses are forced to park up on 2nd St. or on The Banks streets. The writer left out some huge details...for example the dirt that supported the old "Levee Way" was bulldozed south to become the Freedom Center lawn and the fill that supported Freedom Way between Vine and Elm St. (this fill was just recently moved again, south for the riverfront park). Also, from what I remember, the congressman that got the money for the transit center was Mike DeWine, a republican. That money was awarded as part of a multi-modal federal grant...the transit center was the "transit" part of the grant that also paid for the Freedom Center garage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
November 1, 201113 yr You're right except it may have been Voinovich. Transit Center was designed for peak bus and train use.
November 2, 201113 yr I don't think anyone's happy about the transit center's lack of use. But the same people will be complaining when rail does arrive and all those charter buses are forced to park up on 2nd St. or on The Banks streets. The writer left out some huge details...for example the dirt that supported the old "Levee Way" was bulldozed south to become the Freedom Center lawn and the fill that supported Freedom Way between Vine and Elm St. (this fill was just recently moved again, south for the riverfront park). Also, from what I remember, the congressman that got the money for the transit center was Mike DeWine, a republican. That money was awarded as part of a multi-modal federal grant...the transit center was the "transit" part of the grant that also paid for the Freedom Center garage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I know this is veering a bit off topic, but I'm wondering why there hasn't been a push to lobby to make that the Megabus stop for Cincinnati? Its a sheltered area, close to other transit options, which would be very nice for those who have to wait for the bus in the middle of the winter if its running late. Maybe we should all write the city, stagecoach etc to make something like this happen then the transit center will actually be utilized and less prone to be attacked.
November 2, 201113 yr I know this is veering a bit off topic, but I'm wondering why there hasn't been a push to lobby to make that the Megabus stop for Cincinnati? Its a sheltered area, close to other transit options, which would be very nice for those who have to wait for the bus in the middle of the winter if its running late. Maybe we should all write the city, stagecoach etc to make something like this happen then the transit center will actually be utilized and less prone to be attacked. It could be the Greyhound stop as well if they found another location for their maintenance facility.
November 3, 201113 yr Since this was bumped, there has been a bit of a side conversation on the Streetcar thread regarding this article posted in channel 9 news about how this development has been wasted: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/i-team-48-million-transit-station-sits-empty I agree that it has been wasted. Was it good foresight to build it ahead of time? Yes, but its still not being used for anything which IMO makes it an easy target for not building facilities like this again. Also why pay for something when you aren't going to put it to good use. I already mentioned this, but its buried deep in the streetcar thread, so I figured I'd state it again and expand on my original argument: we should focus on working to make this a intercity bus station for Cincinnati until other uses can be found. At the very least a good place for curbside buses to stop as a big criticism of crubside operations is that they don't have any shelters for people to be able to wait for them in harsh weather conditions. Here is a giant underutilized facility that could meet that need and help promote usage of intercity buses. With the neighborhood growing around the station it could be an excellent place for people using these buses to shop while waiting and would benefit business in the area. Not only that but it would also get the curbside buses off the main streets and into an area dedicated for them to be used. Right now, given the economics of gasoline prices combined with the massive growth in these types of buses, its only a matter of time before the Megabus gets decent competition outside of the Northeast, particularly since there is an opportunity I believe to provide better service than they do while still being competitive with prices. As a result long term their could be multiple curbside intercity bus operators operating and this would be a good means to manage the chaos that could come with that. Any thoughts about this idea?
March 2, 201213 yr At a HamCo Comm meeting, Todd Portune complained of some needless regulation blocking bus use in the Transit Center but I missed his explanation. Anybody got a clue? He said it would be discussed in further detail next week.
March 2, 201213 yr There was something on WVXU about it the other day. Apparently METRO is not allowed by some obscure federal law to have it's buses in the Transit Center because it competes with private coach buses. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
March 8, 201213 yr I just find it asinine that taxpayer funds can be used to build the transit center but taxpayer funded transit can't use it. What am I missing here?
March 8, 201213 yr How does Metro compete with private coaches? It's not like Metro is providing charter bus service to Chicago, and it's not like Greyhound is running local buses up Reading Road.
March 9, 201213 yr How does Metro compete with private coaches? It's not like Metro is providing charter bus service to Chicago, and it's not like Greyhound is running local buses up Reading Road. The Republican Congress passed a number of laws to "protect" private enterprise from "unfair" government competition. Regarding transit, I think the basic rule is that Metro can't bid on service that a private carrier can provide.
March 9, 201213 yr It's not just Cincinnati, it's every major market. Louisville and Lexington have had issues with this.
August 16, 201212 yr It appears there is going to be a concert in the Riverfront Transit Center! Just saw an event this morning called SCION Exposed (don't worry, it isn't a porn site). From the website: Scion's 8th Exposed event will be a whole new experience of fun that takes place below the streets of Cincinnati. Scion Exposed is an immersive party for all ages. Located in a half-mile long underground tunnel in downtown Cincinnati, the FREE EVENT will include an array of activities for everyone. Upon arrival at the entrance to the Exposed tunnel, Scion will fully engage you in the event space with Car Shows, Food Trucks, Beverages, Skate Parks, Video Games, and many surprises. Those that make it to the far end of the tunnel will be greeted by the sounds of hot national artists. Exposed is free with an RSVP, so you are encouraged to bring a friend or two or three. Don't worry, this tunnel doesn't get cramped. We have plenty of room. We'll see you in the tunnel on September 15th, rain or shine Music: RJD2 Chairlift Walshy Fire (Major Lazer) DJ Etrayn DAAP Girls Archer's Paradox Should be an interesting event! Anyone else know anything about it?
August 25, 20168 yr MGK was in the movie Nerve ... Wasn't really that bad of a movie. Reminded me of Mr. Robot. I'd love to see Girl Talk live ... seems like they'd put on a good show, especially in a tunnel. jmecklenborg, aren't you going just to see MGK live??
August 26, 20168 yr MGK was in the movie Nerve ... Wasn't really that bad of a movie. Reminded me of Mr. Robot. I'd love to see Girl Talk live ... seems like they'd put on a good show, especially in a tunnel. jmecklenborg, aren't you going just to see MGK live?? Wonder what kind of show someone with an I-71 shield tattooed on his shoulder will put on with I-71 humming by on the other side of the wall.
August 26, 20168 yr This actually looks pretty sick. I saw Nas a few years back and he put on probably the 2nd best hip hop show I've ever seen live. Girl Talk would just be fun, too. Not at all a fan of MGK, nor do I care to check him out. Not my thing. I'm not too familiar with the rest of the lineup either, but I'll get a ticket just for Nas and Girl Talk.
May 3, 20178 yr http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2017/05/03/cincinnati-tries-land-drone-racing-banks/101236974/
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