Its a shame we just don't use the RTC for what it was designed for....transit.

On Friday evening, the RTC's Eastern entrance had about a foot of water blocking it and the western entrance had some water accumulating near Paul Brown Stadium. By today (Monday), water seemed to be flowing through the center. The above ground entrances were fogging up. Metro's parking shuttle had to detour off of Mehring Way, but the RTC isn't open to passengers so no transit users were impacted. If the RTC was used as Metro's central hub in lieu of Government Square, I wonder what the detour set up would've been for this kind of flooding.... a 2nd/3rd street temporary transit corridor?

Luckily this is a once-a-decade or so event, so it would only impact a few days every decade. I imagine it would be a giant cluster on 2nd/3rd and more routes detoured to Govt. Square that had previously been rerouted to the transit center.

 

But those transit center windows are gross.

In the event of the Transit Center flooding, which should only happen once a decade or so (as ryanlammi[/member] mentioned), the police should just designate one lane of 2nd Street and one lane of 3rd Street as transit-only to handle those buses. It wouldn't be unreasonable to have police directing traffic for such an event since it's so rare.

The transit center had some damage due to Ohio River flooding. The repairs will cost ~$1.2 million and be paid for by FEMA. Of course, the Enquirer treats this is an opportunity to parrot out COAST's talking points: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/09/18/remember-seldom-used-riverfront-transit-center-now-its-closed-and-cost-1-2-m-fix/1334795002/

 

 

The Transit Center served as Government Square during Blink Weekend.  It was kind of crazy seeing all of the busses, all around town, all weekend, with "transit center" reading on their front route boards.  Also, the little back screen that usually shows the route number instead said "RTC". 

 

During Blink, there was a ton of bus traffic on Mehring Way as the various used it as their turnaround rather than turning at either and of the Transit Center and coming out the way they came in.  

 

 

 

 

Ronny Salerno and Phil Armstrong took some great pictures of the RTC in use.

 

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

It was kind of crazy seeing all of the busses, all around town, all weekend, with "transit center" reading on their front route boards.  Also, the little back screen that usually shows the route number instead said "RTC". 

 

SORTA ran a bunch of extra buses in between the RTC and the special park-and-ride locations that were set up for Blink. Technically these were not a special shuttle (I believe there is a federal regulation that prohibits public transit agencies from running shuttles for special events), they were extra buses that ran an existing Metro route, but only between the RTC and the park-and-ride. So the not-a-shuttle to Cincinnati State was technically a 20 bus that turned back after reaching Cincinnati State rather than continuing up Hamilton Avenue. Metro differentiated these special buses by using white text on all of the exterior boards rather than the yellow text that typical typical buses use. (Embedding one of Phil's photos below to illustrate.)

 

It was also crazy to see so many buses on streets like Mehring Way and Eggleston Ave. that don't usually have much/any bus traffic.

Thanks for the shout out, @taestell!

So, does anyone think that the RTC's usage for Blink may prompt a question on the center's future usability? Could the idea of using it as a Gov. Square replacement be something tied into the "Reinventing Metro" campaign? Granted there are logistical hurdles: cost to run, rerouting buses, etc.—but could the recent use be used to capture the imagination?

Metro + TANK combined in the RTC (maybe you get Greyhound and Megabus/other charters on board), make it an Uber/Lyft geofence for ball games, etc? Combine that with a more frequent/reliable streetcar and other circulator bus routes/Southbank Shuttle and you could have something good. 

Any chances? Wishful thinking?

Just now, Gordon Bombay said:

Any chances? Wishful thinking?

 

There is still no easy way for local or express buses to reach the Transit Center, so I believe that it will continue as a charter bus terminal.  

 

It's still best-oriented as a passenger rail/commuter rail terminal.  Unfortunately, with Homerama + dozens of other million-dollar homes going up on the east side, it's unlikely that the east siders will ever allow regular transit or intercity traffic on the east line out to Lunken Airport.  The West Side and service up the Millcreek Valley lines is still possible, however.  There is little population to serve out to the west, and serving the north means a 4th mainline from Ivorydale Junction to the yard throat, then a bypass of 4 miles of railroad yard, so not cheap.  

They should move the Greyhound buses down there and tear down their current ugly station. Give them a sweetheart deal on rent. 

20 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

There is still no easy way for local or express buses to reach the Transit Center, so I believe that it will continue as a charter bus terminal.  

 

It's still best-oriented as a passenger rail/commuter rail terminal.  Unfortunately, with Homerama + dozens of other million-dollar homes going up on the east side, it's unlikely that the east siders will ever allow regular transit or intercity traffic on the east line out to Lunken Airport.  The West Side and service up the Millcreek Valley lines is still possible, however.  There is little population to serve out to the west, and serving the north means a 4th mainline from Ivorydale Junction to the yard throat, then a bypass of 4 miles of railroad yard, so not cheap.  

 

I don't think that the eastside commuter rail will ever happen, but it is not because of the people moving into the new million-dollar homes over there. Many of those people come from larger coastal cities with commuter rail and view it as a positive, not a negative like some of the old-money Cincinnatians might. In Philly, for example, the most desirable suburbs are along the Main Line. Those commuter trains are packed every morning with executives and high-powered attorneys. If your average SEPTA Paoli-Thorndale train were its own town, it would have the highest median income in all of Pennsylvania. 

1 hour ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Thanks for the shout out, @taestell!

So, does anyone think that the RTC's usage for Blink may prompt a question on the center's future usability? Could the idea of using it as a Gov. Square replacement be something tied into the "Reinventing Metro" campaign? Granted there are logistical hurdles: cost to run, rerouting buses, etc.—but could the recent use be used to capture the imagination?

Metro + TANK combined in the RTC (maybe you get Greyhound and Megabus/other charters on board), make it an Uber/Lyft geofence for ball games, etc? Combine that with a more frequent/reliable streetcar and other circulator bus routes/Southbank Shuttle and you could have something good. 

Any chances? Wishful thinking?

 

It would be easy for TANK to move to the RTC. Some of their buses switch back and forth between Kenton and Campbell County routes between the Covington Transit Center and Cincinnati.

 

Also it has decent access to 75 north on and off via Central Ave. 71 north at 5th via Broadway, south from 3rd... So they could make express buses work.

 

Also the 50/28 and Metro + (which already turns around down there) could be added pretty easily.

 

Finally, ride may work down there but I think the addition of cars in a bus terminal could create some confusion. It's not impossible because there is sooooo much space down there, probably about as long as the drop off zone at CVG.

It wouldn't make sense to have TANK and some Metro buses go to RTC and other Metro buses go to Government Square. The only thing that makes having TANK and SORTA separate be tolerable from a UX perspective is having all (or the vast majority of) connections in one place.

 

That said, I think if there were some tinkering with transit-only lanes (like on 4th Street, with one counter-flow, and on Central and Broadway) it could work. Especially if some signal priority were worked in. I believe there are plans to move the ramp to 75 north to a different street (or add another ramp?) along with the plans for the new bridge, which would help to the extent this plan would be reducing lanes for 75N's feeder street (4th). Most of the intersections directly impacting highway ramps would be avoided since Central and Broadway go under them. There would be various options for north- and south-bound routes through the CBD if everything is no longer funneled to Main and Walnut. Including the possibility that Vine could be turned into a north/south transit corridor which, together with the streetcar, could allow for some crosstown routes to skip the RTC all together since the connection frequency is so high.

I think contraflow bus-only lanes are way more effective than standard bus-only lanes because drivers actually respect a double yellow line whereas they are much more likely to ignore other "bus only" pavement markings. Unfortunately the idea of contraflow lanes (be it for bikes or transit) is way too progressive for the people currently in charge of DOTE.

How much of Government Square's "business" is transferring between routes versus origin/destination downtown trips?  I see moving to RTC being less useful in both cases for riders, though maybe more so for one use-case versus another.  Government Square is already a bit too far south to be the downtown origin/destination hub for anyone who works above 8th or 9th Street.  It's easier to get a bus at one of the other downtown stops on the way.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  It gives some options if you don't work near Government Square.  If the hub is moved to the RTC, then fewer people will use it since it's even more skewed out of downtown's center.  Rerouting buses and making it the only option will certainly piss off more people than it helps, assuming it gets more origin/destination use. 

 

If it's more for transfers, then there might be a better argument, but again, unless the rest of the downtown stops are eliminated or routes seriously rerouted, it may just mean that more people choose to make their transfers elsewhere.  It's not like Metro is a hyper-efficient rapid transit system that whisks people into downtown in a flash such that they'd tolerate a mode change to the streetcar or some other downtown circulator system.  Especially not the way it's run now, with 10-15 minute wait times and anti-priority.  Take that hour long bus ride and add another 20+ minutes to it?  I don't see that flying with anyone.   

3 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

How much of Government Square's "business" is transferring between routes versus origin/destination downtown trips?  I see moving to RTC being less useful in both cases for riders, though maybe more so for one use-case versus another.  Government Square is already a bit too far south to be the downtown origin/destination hub for anyone who works above 8th or 9th Street.  It's easier to get a bus at one of the other downtown stops on the way.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  It gives some options if you don't work near Government Square.  If the hub is moved to the RTC, then fewer people will use it since it's even more skewed out of downtown's center.  Rerouting buses and making it the only option will certainly piss off more people than it helps, assuming it gets more origin/destination use. 

 

If it's more for transfers, then there might be a better argument, but again, unless the rest of the downtown stops are eliminated or routes seriously rerouted, it may just mean that more people choose to make their transfers elsewhere.  It's not like Metro is a hyper-efficient rapid transit system that whisks people into downtown in a flash such that they'd tolerate a mode change to the streetcar or some other downtown circulator system.  Especially not the way it's run now, with 10-15 minute wait times and anti-priority.  Take that hour long bus ride and add another 20+ minutes to it?  I don't see that flying with anyone.   

 

Errebody gotta walk across an Interstate to do their business then. Had the economic center of gravity moved south of FWW like some people thought was going to happen (at least much more quickly than it has) there might have been a case for it. Or, if say, a train ran though it...

If it was hosting rail service that would be a bit of a different story.  That wouldn't be unlike Chicago where all the major train stations are at the periphery of downtown.  In that case, there's shuttle bus, 'L', and even river taxi services to take you east and west across downtown.  The CTA buses don't stop at the periphery though, they feed through.  At the same time, because of the 'L' and Metra, comparatively few buses go to downtown, it's mostly the ones that run on the streets that also happen to traverse downtown. 

Certainly the main function would be for transfers. And it would be more useful to transfer north of the RTC in many cases. I don't think that's a big problem. At a minimum, transfers between TANK and SORTA would still occur in the RTC. I would imagine bus routes downtown being more simplified, so that outbound buses could be grouped in the hub by the streets they use to go north on above 4th. So that, if it's not convenient to get off on the way into the hub (say your inbound bus goes down Plum and your destination is on Sycamore or Main), you can go to the Main Street area and catch any bus heading up Main, which should be pretty frequent given it would be multiple routes. (I'm not sure how the Gov't Square areas are organized.)

 

You might be right that it wouldn't work out, but I think it would be worth looking at as a partial system redesign. All the downtown portions of routes would have to be looked at. I think the big question is whether getting around within downtown could be made faster and easier based on more organized route behavior that has greater coverage from 2nd to McMicken, Central to Broadway.

In the most recent SORTA board meeting docs, I noticed in Metro on the Move by CEO the below quote:

 

Quote

Park and ride in the RTC: Beginning March 2, we will be opening the Riverfront Transit Center to the public for daily parking. We’ll also operate both the Rts. 85 Riverfront Parking Shuttle, which features a $0.50 fare and circulates throughout downtown, and the Metro*Plus service out of the RTC encouraging daily parkers to hop onboard.

 

https://www.go-metro.com/uploads/Board Packet (1-2020)_1.pdf

 

Anyone have any insight as to why this hasn't been done previously or what this may mean for the future of the RTC? 

15 minutes ago, shawk said:

In the most recent SORTA board meeting docs, I noticed in Metro on the Move by CEO the below quote:

 

 

https://www.go-metro.com/uploads/Board Packet (1-2020)_1.pdf

 

Anyone have any insight as to why this hasn't been done previously or what this may mean for the future of the RTC? 

I'm curious how they intend to physically structure the parking, but this is probably a great revenue idea for them. If they market Metro*Plus as an easy to way to get between uptown/downtown—could be really cool. 

16 hours ago, shawk said:

In the most recent SORTA board meeting docs, I noticed in Metro on the Move by CEO the below quote:

 

 

https://www.go-metro.com/uploads/Board Packet (1-2020)_1.pdf

 

Anyone have any insight as to why this hasn't been done previously or what this may mean for the future of the RTC? 

 

That's great. I suggested this years ago. There's doors that connect the RTC to the CRG. The reason to have not done it previously was, I believe, staffing for security and some repairs that needed to happen for the exhaust removal fans or waterproofing or something. I'm going from several years ago memory here. 

^ So would there be a charge to park there? Most of the park and rides are free parking, right?

36 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ So would there be a charge to park there? Most of the park and rides are free parking, right?

 

Yes, the suburban park and rides are free. I would imagine this would not be, though, as it's not similar to a suburban park & ride. If anything, it's comparable to/is a Downtown parking garage. A good idea would be making the circulator/parking shuttle included with paid parking. Streetcar too. 

2 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

Yes, the suburban park and rides are free. I would imagine this would not be, though, as it's not similar to a suburban park & ride. If anything, it's comparable to/is a Downtown parking garage. A good idea would be making the circulator/parking shuttle included with paid parking. Streetcar too. 

I was wondering how they could do a free park and ride in the city. There would be a ton of free riders in that case. I agree, make it free for the Streetcar (although since it is now decoupled from SORTA dont think that is a possibility anymore) and for the circulators in the city METRO and TANK.  The only issue I have with using it as a Park and Ride is that downtown is usually not a beginning destination but rather end destination. Also, unless you are using it as an after work hangout, what reason would you have to do a park and ride downtown. The people who live at the Banks obviously wont need it, and the people that live in say NKY or near West Side are not going to use it instead of driving to Uptown. It is just not conveinent. However, it could be a good marketing piece whereby you park downtown, take the bus to Uptown and then after work come to the Banks or Fountain Sq for dinner, drinks, show, etc. 

I just see it as another option for downtown office worker parking.  No way it should (or even could) be free, since one of the continual issues with opening the RTC is the cost of the lights, ventilation, elevators, and other access controls. 

22 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The only issue I have with using it as a Park and Ride is...

 

To be fair, I don't think that's what they're trying to accomplish. Rather, it seems like it's a revenue opportunity to help offset the RTC's operating costs. I.E. They have the space... may as well offer downtown parking spots whether those people use the bus or not. 

57 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

To be fair, I don't think that's what they're trying to accomplish. Rather, it seems like it's a revenue opportunity to help offset the RTC's operating costs. I.E. They have the space... may as well offer downtown parking spots whether those people use the bus or not. 

But is there demand for that. Given all the riverfront parking, it would seem as if there is an oversupply of it on the riverfront. What would get people to park at the RTC over elsewhere in the garages unless it was significantly cheaper. 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

But is there demand for that. Given all the riverfront parking, it would seem as if there is an oversupply of it on the riverfront. What would get people to park at the RTC over elsewhere in the garages unless it was significantly cheaper. 

My gut reaction would be that the two ideas (parking + MetroPlus) together may be a way to increase foot traffic and utilize the space.

 

Re-routing MetroPlus in isolation may have made those users feel isolated/desolate in the RTC. Parking spots, even if unfilled or limited actual demand, may decrease that feeling. 

2 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

To be fair, I don't think that's what they're trying to accomplish. Rather, it seems like it's a revenue opportunity to help offset the RTC's operating costs. I.E. They have the space... may as well offer downtown parking spots whether those people use the bus or not. 

 

Right. This seems to be directly related to the very successful usage of the RTC during Blink. The parking is simply a revenue generator that will allow them to offset the costs of running the RTC. Very few people are going to park in the RTC and then ride the bus out from there.

I wonder what the hours of the RTC are going to be. I would assume it would only go for as long as the Metro*Plus and Route 85 are in service, correct? So roughly normal business hours?

EDIT: Metro*Plus runs from 5:11am to 10:48pm. The first stop at Government Square is 5:31am.

I'm guessing the RTC would be open 5:00am to 11:00pm and then they close it for 6 hours between weekdays and all weekend.

https://www.wvxu.org/post/metro-opens-riverfront-transit-center-parking#stream/0

 

$85/mo, 203 spaces. 

45 minutes ago, shawk said:

https://www.wvxu.org/post/metro-opens-riverfront-transit-center-parking#stream/0

 

$85/mo, 203 spaces. 

That's up to ~$200k/year in revenue. Obviously, there will be additional expenses that come with opening it up to parking, but it's good to see the facility used more frequently. 

Seems a bit underpriced. Compare to Ziegler Park at $105, Washington Park at $110, Court & Walnut at $140, Eighth & Sycamore at $150. And garages in the core of the CBD are of course even more, like Fountain Square at $210.

7 minutes ago, taestell said:

Seems a bit underpriced. Compare to Ziegler Park at $105, Washington Park at $110, Court & Walnut at $140, Eighth & Sycamore at $150. And garages in the core of the CBD are of course even more, like Fountain Square at $210.

 

Probably because it wouldn't give you 24 hour access. I'm almost certain they are going to close it down on weekends and from 11pm-5am on weekdays.

None of those other lots are really comparable since demand for downtown parking is so hyper local.  The OTR-adjacent parts have higher demand due to the courthouse and Kroger, and anything in the downtown "core" is going to be even more squeezed.  Fountain Square is the 100% location so that's also going to command a premium.  On the other hand, the lots around City Hall are comparatively cheaper since they're just about the only thing there.  Same with peripheral areas of downtown, such as along Eggleston and near 3rd and Central.  Generally, only The Banks garage south of 3rd Street costs over $100.

 

It's interesting to see which garages have a lot of availability whereas most are booked solid with monthlies.  Both Macy's garages have hundreds of available slots despite being relatively inexpensive for the location (*plays ominous music*).  Court & Walnut still has 100 available, though it's a bit pricey compared to nearby alternatives, and inconvenient due to the height.  6th & Elm has 150 spots, and overall the riverfront lots like Longworth Hall, Sawyer Point, and 3rd & Central have 100+ open.  West 3rd and West 4th also have garages with 300+ spots.  https://www.downtowncincinnati.com/parking-downtown/monthly-parking

Here's what the Riverfront Transit Center will be used for now

 

The Riverfront Transit Center, whose use generally has been limited to tour and charter buses with some limited use by Metro, will see more-regular use as a parking facility and by two Metro bus routes.

 

The center, which was built underneath Third Street in 2003 and cost about $18 million, will have 203 parking spaces, which will cost $85 per month.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/02/05/heres-what-the-riverfront-transit-center-will-be.html

On 2/3/2020 at 8:23 AM, shawk said:

https://www.wvxu.org/post/metro-opens-riverfront-transit-center-parking#stream/0

 

$85/mo, 203 spaces. 

If the city proposed a bus lane that eliminated 203 spaces, everyone would be up in arms saying this would make parking impossible and ruin everything and 'just another reason to not go downtown'

 

But here, we've essentially got 203 spaces dropped on the city out of no where and no one is saying it's going to fix parking and this is just what we needed, etc, etc. 

2 hours ago, thomasbw said:

If the city proposed a bus lane that eliminated 203 spaces, everyone would be up in arms saying this would make parking impossible and ruin everything and 'just another reason to not go downtown'

 

But here, we've essentially got 203 spaces dropped on the city out of no where and no one is saying it's going to fix parking and this is just what we needed, etc, etc. 

 

Yep. Loss aversion is real, even if not purely logical: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

 

https://www.wvxu.org/politics/2025-02-18/metro-will-not-move-government-square-study

Edited February 19Feb 19 by Lazarus