November 09, 2017 10:26 am      UPDATED 22 HOURS AGO

FirstEnergy Foundation donates $50,000 to Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad

By CRAIN'S AKRON BUSINESS

 

The Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad's fleet will get some upgrading, thanks, in part, to a $50,000 donation from the FirstEnergy Foundation, according to a Thursday, Nov. 9, news release.

 

The railroad, which runs through the Cuyahoga Valley National Park, is in the midst of its first capital campaign since it was founded in 1972. The funds will go toward modernizing its locomotives and passenger cars, the release said.

 

"The Cuyahoga Valley Scenic railroad has become a cultural institution in northeast Ohio, drawing people from far and wide for programs designed to build wonderful family memories, such as summer valley excursions or trips on the Polar Express during the holiday season," said Dee Lowery, president of the FirstEnergy Foundation, in the release. "The fact that this is the railroad's first comprehensive capital campaign in its 45 years of operation is a testament to the organization's viability, and we're pleased to support it."

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20171109/news/141766/firstenergy-foundation-donates-50000-cuyahoga-valley-scenic-railroad

Is the route to Canton no longer operated?  The website no longer mentions that pat of the route.

 

Edit:  Nevermind. I found my answer.

Leaving aside the utility of service downtown Cleveland, I actually think it would be a far more interesting and educational ride to transition into the industrial valley.

KJP[/member] would the railroad have to do any upgrades to signalling along the route to operate at night?  If marketing to casino patrons, it would only make sense to have it run until later hours.

No, nighttime operations and signaling have nothing to do with each other. Signaling, as in an electronic traffic control system with wayside signals for trains, is necessary only if rail traffic levels and track arrangements warrant it.

California Zephyr streamliners coming soon; in service by September: nice news!

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180815/news/171791/cuyahoga-valley-scenic-railroad-adds-historic-california-zephyr-cars 

California Zephyr streamliners coming soon; in service by September: nice news!

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180815/news/171791/cuyahoga-valley-scenic-railroad-adds-historic-california-zephyr-cars 

 

Took my goddaughter recently. These trains are a gem

From Cleveland.com:

 

Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad acquires historic Zephyr railcars

Updated 5:59 PM;

Posted 5:49 PM

 

PENINSULA -- The Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad announced Friday that it had acquired four historic Zephyr railcars.

 

The acquisition of the railcars is part of a fundraising campaign created to enhance and preserve the fleet.

 

Below is a press release from the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad:

 

"Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad (CVSR) marked a major accomplishment in its first-ever capital campaign with the acquisition of four historic Zephyr railcars. This addition to the fleet enables CVSR to provide new programming and experiences within Cuyahoga Valley National Park, including 360-degree views in two of the Vista Dome cars, and offer a new heritage rail experience that exemplifies cross-country travel during the 1940s-1960s.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/08/cuyahoga_valley_scenic_railroa_1.html

mu2010[/member] Thanks for your information about the CSX rights of way in the valley through downtown Cleveland, posted at https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,23946.msg936290.html#msg936290.

 

This information is proving to be timely. There is some interest in trying to get CSX to donate their right of way to CVSR or maybe the NPS.

Very cool. That would be such a great thing to have that railway reach Downtown CLE.

 

More info to come?

Very cool. That would be such a great thing to have that railway reach Downtown CLE.

 

More info to come?

 

If something happens, yes.

 

I think you are correct. Scroll to page 152 of this book (https://books.google.com/books?id=IT1NVT1vEwUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) and you will find the following. Start at the third paragraph.

 

 

 

The West Bank was owned by private developers as part of independent Ohio City. When the City leased the canal bed to the B&O, the B&O must have separately purchased this land... and built their bridges to connect it with the rest of the right-of-way.

 

And based on the above information as well as our discussion in the Cleveland Random Questions and Nautica threads, a 2.25-mile city-owned right of way starting at the original mouth of the Ohio & Erie Canal would approximately comprise the following....

 

B&O-cityowned-row by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Although I'm pretty sure that the CSX-owned tracks just north of its movable bridge below I-490 are still used by either CSX or CROW to shuttle cars between the Cleveland Works on the East Bank and CSX's West 3rd Street Yard on the West Bank, it is possible to build a passenger-only track for CVSR across the unused track space across the movable bridge to avoid these freight moves. Furthermore, CSX left an unused track between its West 3rd Yard and Steelyard Commons for CVSR to use someday. That track still remains as of July 2017 GoogleEarth images. The rails may still be OK to use, everything below them probably need to be replaced. CSX still uses the track along the river south of West 3rd Yard and the Jennings Crossing of NS, to a wye-track called Willow. Just south of this wye is where National Park Service ownership begins. A little more than a mile south of that is where CVSR operations begin.

Perhaps a train connection between the zoo and downtown with a stop at steelyard commons?  Or do you fee this might be viable doing the whole shebang and connecting it all up to the CVSR?

Difficult to serve the zoo directly because the NS and CSX rail lines past the zoo are both much more active (3-10 trains per day) than the rail line along the Cuyahoga River (a train or two per week). In past plans for a Cleveland extension, a zoo station stop would have been served by a shuttle bus/zoo tram on the long-discussed Lower Big Creek Greenway. I liked a stop near old Harvard Road but First Interstate was willing to pay for a station at the north end of Steelyard Commons, also close to Tremont.

 

Past plans had two different operating scenarios -- extend the existing trains (3 trains a day each way Wednesday-Sunday May-October, weekends only November-May) to downtown; or run self-propelled rail cars hourly each day as a shuttle service between downtown and Rockside Road.

Some maps I made a couple of years ago, showing what MIGHT be needed to get CVSR downtown. This includes coming up with automatic train stop signal system at Jennings Crossing and finding someone willing to staff the CSX movable bridge below I-490. Perhaps the CROW would be willing to staff it........

 

Cleveland-extension-text1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Cleveland-extension-text2 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Jennings Crossing-text by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Exciting. What do you think travel times and project cost would look like?

Travel times would be slow since it's a recreational train. The current service averages 20 mph. It may take 25-30 minutes between downtown and Rockside Road. Nearly 20 years ago, the capital cost estimate for the Cleveland extension was $20 million with an annual operating subsidy of $1 million.

 

The chances of transportation projects happening in the USA aren't very good. When they do happen, the average time from idea to ribbon-cutting is 10 years. They're even more difficult to achieve in no-growth metro areas like ours.

I don't see this as primarily "transportation" as much as being about economic development/recreation.  Connecting Downtown to the CVNP would make Cleveland into that much more viable a destination spot for tourists, and a major amenity for residents who could then get to the park easier.

Except the regulations and project development process it has to follow are proscribed for transportation projects. So it doesn't matter what funding sources are tapped for it. It matters what those dollars are spent for.  So even if economic development dollars are tapped, it's still a railroad project and thus the project development process for a railroad construction project must be followed according to federal and state laws.

Travel times would be slow since it's a recreational train. The current service averages 20 mph. It may take 25-30 minutes between downtown and Rockside Road. Nearly 20 years ago, the capital cost estimate for the Cleveland extension was $20 million with an annual operating subsidy of $1 million.

 

Hmm, I guess I misunderstood this project. I thought a commuter/regional rail line to Akron was being proposed.

No, that would probably require either a tax increase, a massive TIF with lots of station-area developments and/or a major reform of transit agencies in Cleveland and Akron. Besides, past studies have shown the most promising commuter rail route in NE Ohio would link Lorain-Aurora via downtown Cleveland.

Is there an existing study on that kjp? I’d love to read it

Is there an existing study on that kjp? I’d love to read it

 

On what? I've thrown a lot out there in the past few days. The financing options?

sorry, yea. The one showing Lorain to Aurora being the most promising commuter rail route

The summary of the 2002 study is at:

http://freepdfhosting.com/9207e94716.pdf

 

Other reports and studies of Ohio transit are at:

http://allaboardohio.org/transportation-planning-library/localregional-transit-planning-documents/

 

While Lorain-Cleveland and Aurora-Cleveland, at most Levels of Service, had lower ridership projections as separate routes than Cleveland-Akron, a combined Lorain-Aurora route was higher and had a greater chance of winning federal funds.

How does this relate to CVNP and its rail line

It doesn't. The CVNP route was rejected in the NEOrail studies as a viable commuter rail route. It's only benefit as a commuter rail route is that it has no freight traffic (except for the Jennings Crossing) and has seen tens of millions of dollars worth of track, bridge and station upgrading by the NPS for CVSR since 2002. There's little or no online population however.

There is a new and aggressive effort to get CVSR extended north to downtown Cleveland. For the first time in 20 years, this one actually has a chance of success and would also help boost shortline freight rail service in the industrial valley, putting that service in the hands of railroads who actually care about local service. I hope to be able to share more details soon. Fingers crossed. Ironically, the relocation of Sherwin Williams' Breen Center could also help the effort to extend CVSR to the old B&O station and the Canal Basin Park, next to the Waterfront Line's Settlers Landing station. Yet another reason for putting a Red Line station on the north end of the Cuyahoga Valley viaduct!

 

I literally don't care I use this GIF too often, this would be amazing for the two cities, CVNP, and everyone in general. Lets do thiiiiiiiiiiiis!

 

It's not the fastest means, but imagine a train between Akron and Cleveland on the daily, holy crap!

Edited June 18, 20195 yr by GISguy
added excitement

This is AWESOME! KJP, I assume you had something to do with the new push to get this done. If so, thank you for all of your hard work. This is something our region can be very proud of

Actually, I didn't have anything to do with it. I provided some legal information, property histories, etc. to persons involved with this, but that was about it. There's still a long way to go, but the best part about this current effort is that everyone is involved who needs to be involved, and they all have something to get out of it.

Looking forward to seeing the B&O Station back in use; I hope they do a good job restoring it - although the roof work looks expensive.

Even if it isn't upgraded to regional transportation levels of service, the CVNR launching from Downtown turns it into an awesome, one of a kind recreational amenity for the region.

Unpopular take - I like the CVNR for the niche it fills. It's a vehicle within a getaway, not a passthrough. 

 

Though, if this went through, I wouldn't oppose it. 

6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Unpopular take - I like the CVNR for the niche it fills. It's a vehicle within a getaway, not a passthrough. 

 

Though, if this went through, I wouldn't oppose it. 

 

This expansion would primarily be specifically for the niche it already fills, just for many more people (estimated 300K riders / year instead of current 200K IIRC).  (Just to be clear, that niche being to get visitors into the Cuyahoga Valley National Park, especially people who might not otherwise have that opportunity.)  Some people might use it as a rail connection between downtown Cleveland and downtown Akron, but that will likely be a minor subset of riders.  It is too slow and doesn't have (or desire) the requisite TOD or park-and-ride lots to generate substantial commuting ridership.

 

All that said, if it does end up carrying a bunch of commuters, it would certainly help in building the political will to invest in a proper commuter rail system in this area.

On 6/18/2019 at 2:03 PM, KJP said:

There is a new and aggressive effort to get CVSR extended north to downtown Cleveland. For the first time in 20 years, this one actually has a chance of success...

 

This got me thinking - how many big downtowns are a 15 minute train ride from a National Park?

9 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

This got me thinking - how many big downtowns are a 15 minute train ride from a National Park?

 

15 minutes of google searching and the only other as-convenient National Park I’ve found is the National Mall in DC, which kinda seems like cheating on the National Park front. 

 

I did LOL at the article I found that credited Detroit w being only 2.5 hours from a National Park, specifically the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. (Cleveland was mentioned in the fine print of that blurb.)

2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

This expansion would primarily be specifically for the niche it already fills, just for many more people (estimated 300K riders / year instead of current 200K IIRC).  (Just to be clear, that niche being to get visitors into the Cuyahoga Valley National Park, especially people who might not otherwise have that opportunity.)  Some people might use it as a rail connection between downtown Cleveland and downtown Akron, but that will likely be a minor subset of riders.  It is too slow and doesn't have (or desire) the requisite TOD or park-and-ride lots to generate substantial commuting ridership.

 

All that said, if it does end up carrying a bunch of commuters, it would certainly help in building the political will to invest in a proper commuter rail system in this area.

 

All true. And BTW, since CVSR's train layover/storage/maintenance facility is on old Fitzwater Road at the north end of Brecksville, and since the first run of the day is likely to come south from downtown Cleveland at about 9 a.m. or so, wouldn't it make sense to sell tickets for people to ride what would otherwise be a deadhead run from Brecksville to downtown?

 

BTW2, here's an idea I put out there a few years ago. Perhaps the timing wasn't right. But with the hotel situation in control of the city of Independence, now might be a good time to revisit this idea?

 

 

Having the CVRR travel from downtown Cleveland to its southern terminus is such an obvious idea and its frustrating that the region hasn't been able to pull it off. 

 

Coincidentally we took some visitors from Texas on the train yesterday. I hadn't read KJP's post about the possibility of extending the line to Cleveland yet. Just for the hell of it I asked the conductor in our train why it wasn't possible to have a Cleveland stop knowing its been a problem from day one. He said it wasn't that it wasn't wanted, the problem was that, according to him, each city north of Rockside Rd. was responsible for track maintenance and there was no funding available. He said the CVRR owns the trains but not the tracks so that was the hold-up. He also said the reason the railroad stopped going to Canton was because the tracks were in disrepair, plus the terminal was in too bad of an area and the railroad was afraid there might be problems. He said it was so bad there was vandalism while the train was actually stoping there let alone what happened when the place was empty. 

 

Anyway those of us who are fans of all things train can only hope KJP is on to something with this possible great news. 

 

I live in the old "Pink Hotel" on the Rocky River. Just outside my front door is an old railroad terminal that the city uses for storage. I would love for that to be a RTA stop traveling from Lorain to Cleveland. Alas, the NIMBY's are not in favor of it. Even the people in my building that I've talked to about it don't want it. Sheeesh. 

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

He said it wasn't that it wasn't wanted, the problem was that, according to him, each city north of Rockside Rd. was responsible for track maintenance and there was no funding available. He said the CVRR owns the trains but not the tracks so that was the hold-up.

 

@cadmen While it's true that CVSR owns some of the railcars and locomotives and not the tracks, it is not correct that the cities are responsible for track maintenance. The owner of the tracks south of a location almost directly behind the old Days Inn (5555 Brecksville Rd) is the National Park Service. It contracts with CVSR to provide the historical and environmental educational and transportation of passengers on the rail corridor.

 

But the owner of the tracks north of that location is CSX Transportation Corp., a common carrier engaged in freight transportation. CSX is responsible for the maintenance, operation, financing, security, dispatching, and access to that private right of way. Although a common carrier, CSX's predecessors agreed in 1971 to cede the legal obligation of carrying passengers to Amtrak. CSX itself doesn't carry passengers and, unless you are Amtrak, is under no legal obligation to accept your passenger train.

 

Unless -- if you are willing to pay CSX so much money that it becomes an offer CSX couldn't refuse. Neither CVSR nor the National Park Service are blessed with that much money.  Unless -- a public sector entity like the National Park Service buys the tracks, which it did in about 1985 from a location 1,000 feet south of the southernmost switch of a wye track called "Willow" (that's the location right behind the old Days Inn) south to near Howard Street in Akron. South of Howard Street, the Akron Metro RTA owns the tracks to Canton. Akron Metro RTA lacks the funds to adequately maintain the tracks. I wish they would sell them and all other rail rights of way it owns. But I digress.

 

The NPS was close to acquiring the CSX-owned tracks north from Willow in the late 1990s to give CVSR access to downtown Cleveland. But then Conrail, a major eastern railroad, was jointly acquired by CSX and Norfolk Southern and its assets divided roughly equally among them. After the Conrail split, CSX no longer was interested in divesting of its Cleveland-area rail assets. That has changed recently. CSX is in the midst of a fire sale. Almost everything except its principal mainlines are available to the highest bidders. And CSX isn't interested in doing the dirty work of assembling and disassembling freight trains for a myriad of customers scattered all over a city or region. If someone else assembles and disassembles a freight train, CSX will happily run it for you to the next handoff 1,000 miles away or more. CSX isn't the only major railroad that is increasingly operating in this manner. In fact, all of the big boys are.

 

So the rail line in the valley, north of Willow to downtown, doesn't fit into CSX's new modus operandi. Even CSX's large Clark Avenue Yard that serves the steel mills and other industrial customers doesn't fit CSX's new M.O. So I think you can see where this is going. Someone else is going to take over all of this complicated railroad infrastructure and operations in the valley. They're going to have to or the freight rail service is going to go away, and it's going to take a lot of industrial jobs with it. So when the ownership of the infrastructure and operations changes, and it will, that will open the door to CVSR coming north of its Rockside Road station.

Edited June 24, 20195 yr by KJP

^ I thought I had read previously that the tracks were owned by a railroad company (I had forgotten which one) and that company didn't want to share the tracks. So the holdup is on them and not any particular city. The conductor was obviously wrong then.

 

Its interesting to me how much disinformation and sheer ignorance about ANY subject is out there. Kinda makes it hard to come up with an informed decision about anything.

Just now, cadmen said:

^ I thought I had read previously that the tracks were owned by a railroad company (I had forgotten which one) and that company didn't want to share the tracks. So the holdup is on them and not any particular city. The conductor was obviously wrong then.

 

Its interesting to me how much disinformation and sheer ignorance about ANY subject is out there. Kinda makes it hard to come up with an informed decision about anything.

 

Keep talking to people, especially people who have been there and done that. Working as a conductor makes him an expert on his duties and the things he comes into contact on a daily basis. Doesn't mean he's informed on matters beyond his work setting. In fact, many people who work in repetitive, routine-oriented jobs for many years are so hyperfocused on their work setting that they cannot function very well beyond it. A dead giveaway is if they're a conspiracy theorist, so they can make sense of complicated matters they haven't taken the time to read about or experience first-hand.

On 6/19/2019 at 7:53 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

This got me thinking - how many big downtowns are a 15 minute train ride from a National Park?

 

 

its got me back to thinking about the idea of passenger rail service to three ne ohio airports.

 

not baaad.

 

but yeah, just running something downtown to the park would be fantastic.

https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2019/07/cuyahoga-valley-scenic-railroad-offers-free-kids-rides.html

 

By Anne Nickoloff, cleveland.com

PENINSULA, Ohio -- Kids can ride free for the entire month of August on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad.

The deal, presented by Meijer, gives a free children’s coach ticket with every adult coach ticket purchased. (An adult ticket costs $15.) The offer is available Wednesdays through Fridays, and is only eligible on coach tickets.

Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad opens innovative Edu-Trainment Car

 

https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2019/10/cuyahoga-valley-scenic-railroad-opens-innovative-edu-trainment-car.html

 

“In the latest of several improvements, the booming Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad is unveiling what leaders believe is the nation’s first interactive children’s museum on rails.

The Edu-Trainment Car features, not surprisingly, a miniature train set. It also has bigger train cars that children can occupy and handle, donning railroader aprons if they like. Then there’s an abacus, a library, a reading nook, a nursing room, a bathroom, a big wall map of the route and lots of signs with information about the surrounding Cuyahoga Valley National Park.”

 

Edited October 24, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian

The wife and I had dinner on the train last week. Such and awesome thing to have here. Can't wait to do it again.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 20195 yr by musky

Went through volunteer orientation last weekend, got to see some of the cars and also got a trip out of it.

 

Fun fact, the train is about a quarter mile long when fully built out. Also, this is the largest collection of California Zephyr cars in the world (I think that's what they said?)

 

 

 

Coming into Peninsula

 

Peninsula, aka the 'North Pole' for the Polar Express trains

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 20195 yr by GISguy

Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad rolling out more events from Akron Northside Station

https://www.crainscleveland.com/sue-walton-blogs/cuyahoga-valley-scenic-railroad-rolling-out-more-events-akron-northside-station

Upthread, @KJP, you mentioned that CSX was seemingly more predisposed recently to divesting rail assets such as the tracks north as willow...

 

On 6/24/2019 at 6:53 PM, KJP said:

The NPS was close to acquiring the CSX-owned tracks north from Willow in the late 1990s to give CVSR access to downtown Cleveland. But then Conrail, a major eastern railroad, was jointly acquired by CSX and Norfolk Southern and its assets divided roughly equally among them. After the Conrail split, CSX no longer was interested in divesting of its Cleveland-area rail assets. That has changed recently. CSX is in the midst of a fire sale. Almost everything except its principal mainlines are available to the highest bidders. And CSX isn't interested in doing the dirty work of assembling and disassembling freight trains for a myriad of customers scattered all over a city or region. If someone else assembles and disassembles a freight train, CSX will happily run it for you to the next handoff 1,000 miles away or more. CSX isn't the only major railroad that is increasingly operating in this manner. In fact, all of the big boys are.

 

So the rail line in the valley, north of Willow to downtown, doesn't fit into CSX's new modus operandi. Even CSX's large Clark Avenue Yard that serves the steel mills and other industrial customers doesn't fit CSX's new M.O. So I think you can see where this is going. Someone else is going to take over all of this complicated railroad infrastructure and operations in the valley. They're going to have to or the freight rail service is going to go away, and it's going to take a lot of industrial jobs with it. So when the ownership of the infrastructure and operations changes, and it will, that will open the door to CVSR coming north of its Rockside Road station.

 

Is your above post from the Sherwin-Williams HQ Related Infrastructure thread an indication that as far as you know, any growing opportunity for some CVSR acquisitions from CSX has become less probable in the short-to-mid term than it had appeared last year?

 

I know this line of thinking might be a stretch when you said "if CVSR isn't ever coming down" since that requires a lot of things to align to work out, but this thread has been pretty light on news lately. I'm pleased about the possibilities the new stop in Merriman valley will bring to the line, but seeing as the CVSR is likely the only passenger rail development to connect across transit authority boundaries in the region anytime in the foreseeable future, it is always a great topic of interest.

CSX is still very interested in divesting itself of secondary or lesser rail rights of way. It just sold much of its interests in Virginia, including its ownership in the busy mainline between Washington DC and Richmond. So selling off the Valley Line north of Valley View is certainly possible, as long as there is a potential buyer who is willing to pay CSX's price. I don't know what that price would be, but it could be about $500,000 to $1 million per mile.

 

While CVSR's board is dominated by Akron-area interests who are focused on the south end of the line, CVSR's president remains very interested in accessing Cleveland. Perhaps adding a couple of Cleveland board members might help, such as someone from Bedrock or Sherwin Williams?

 

 

Edited January 29, 20205 yr by KJP

The B&O station is right at the edge of Canal Basin park and just 0.4 miles down Carter Rd from the end of the towpath on scranton peninsula by the eagle avenue bridge. It would surely be wonderful to see Canalway Partners, CVSR, and other stakeholders come together to bring connections to the towpath, tower city, and a new riverfront boardwalk along the Bedrock/CityBlock development and Sherwin Williams R&D. It's also only 0.4 miles from the B&O station to get to Collision Bend Brewing and on to the Flats East bank development. Surely there are a lot of possible public-private partnerships that would like to offer public connections. It would sure be nice to then meaningfully leverage the waterfront line with the Settler's landing station just a 0.1 mile walk away from the B&O station.

Edited January 29, 20205 yr by infrafreak
canal basin park