A counterview....

 

  

19 minutes ago, marty15 said:

If the City had their sh*t together, regionalism would be a lot easier. These suburbs see how piss poor CoC services are. There’s no pride, there’s no attention to detail. Nobody should ever need to do a special improvement district. These are all basic things that the city should provide at taxpayer expense. 

I would not necessarily blame merger difficulty solely on Cleveland. The 'burbs don't want to give up any power, because they believe all the money making residents, reside in the burbs and dont want want to lose younger residents to the city.  And they continue to pedal the "only poor people live in the city" BS.

3 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

  

I would not necessarily blame merger difficulty solely on Cleveland. The 'burbs don't want to give up any power, because they believe all the money making residents, reside in the burbs and dont want want to lose younger residents to the city.  And they continue to pedal the "only poor people live in the city" BS.

That’s fair. But you definitely won’t get residents pushing for it, because of the above stated. And that’s ultimately what you need. Garfield/Bedford/Maple, they’re definitely not where they used to be, but they’re very cognizant of what has been happening in the Slavic Village area crime wise in the last 5-10 years, and has seen that the City has largely failed to address it. It’s things like this that make it really difficult to mend fences. They may seem trivial to those on the outside, but they matter deeply at the grassroots level, where the changes need to take place.

3 minutes ago, marty15 said:

That’s fair. But you definitely won’t get residents pushing for it, because of the above stated. And that’s ultimately what you need. Garfield/Bedford/Maple, they’re definitely not where they used to be, but they’re very cognizant of what has been happening in the Slavic Village area crime wise in the last 5-10 years, and has seen that the City has largely failed to address it. It’s things like this that make it really difficult to mend fences. They may seem trivial to those on the outside, but they matter deeply at the grassroots level, where the changes need to take place.

I think we're going to have different points on regionalism, based on where we grew up and where we currently live. I grew up in Shaker but would NEVER live in Shaker as an adult taxpayer.  I feel a lot of people born in the late 90 early 2000s would want to move in to the city as they have in other regions.  I think the 'burbs are afraid of that.   

 

My nephew has colleagues that complain about living at home in the 'burbs and painful commutes or high cost of parking.  They all want to live downtown or adjacent areas to be close to work or entertainment.  And now that downtown residential is attracting young people, Ohio City, Tremont, D-S, Central are all family oriented, affordable and desirable, ...the 'burbs are afraid of that. the 70 white flight, maybe a reversed to an urban flight in the next 5 years.

 

If we can get our rail transportation system on par with DC we could be a more desirable city.

4 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

I think we're going to have different points on regionalism, based on where we grew up and where we currently live. I grew up in Shaker but would NEVER live in Shaker as an adult taxpayer.  I feel a lot of people born in the late 90 early 2000s would want to move in to the city as they have in other regions.  I think the 'burbs are afraid of that.   

 

My nephew has colleagues that complain about living at home in the 'burbs and painful commutes or high cost of parking.  They all want to live downtown or adjacent areas to be close to work or entertainment.  And now that downtown residential is attracting young people, Ohio City, Tremont, D-S, Central are all family oriented, affordable and desirable, ...the 'burbs are afraid of that. the 70 white flight, maybe a reversed to an urban flight in the next 5 years.

 

If we can get our rail transportation system on par with DC we could be a more desirable city.

There’s really nothing here I can argue with. There’s a lot of different elements/walls/fears/tribalism to ever make it happen here. The generation that left CLE in the 60,70,80’s has deep seated issues. If you want their pulse, read the cle.com comments. 

1 hour ago, MyTwoSense said:

 I would not necessarily blame merger difficulty solely on Cleveland. The 'burbs don't want to give up any power, because they believe all the money making residents, reside in the burbs and dont want want to lose younger residents to the city.  And they continue to pedal the "only poor people live in the city" BS.

 

@marty15 Yeah, I am normally the first in line to bash the City of Cleveland, but this isn't their fault. Matter of fact, the piss poor services and complacency mentality were caused by 1970s white flight in my view. You have a city that loses half its tax base in a few decades but doesn't lose half of its expenses or infrastructure, you'd have a hard time not half-a$$ing it and triaging everything just to survive. The problem is that became the normal way of doing things, and now the city is turning a corner but many city leaders are stuck in that mindset. Going all the way up to the mayor.

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by mu2010

 

 

 

at least there are efforts -- sounds like akron is the biggest stick in the mud this these days.

 

 

 

NOACA launches regional discussion on merging Metropolitan Statistical Areas to boost NEO in national rankings

Posted Apr 26, 5:02 AM

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Cleveland and Northeast Ohio have been losing population for decades, sliding lower and lower in the national urban pecking order while other regions grow.

 

But Northeast Ohio could vault back into the top 20 regions in the U.S. if it merged Metropolitan Statistical Areas to better reflect the region’s economic clout.

 

more:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/04/noaca-launches-regional-discussion-on-merging-metropolitan-statistical-areas-to-boost-neo-in-national-rankings.html

Edited April 27, 20205 yr by mrnyc

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

at least there are efforts -- sounds like akron is the biggest stick in the mud this these days.

 

 

 

NOACA launches regional discussion on merging Metropolitan Statistical Areas to boost NEO in national rankings

Posted Apr 26, 5:02 AM

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Cleveland and Northeast Ohio have been losing population for decades, sliding lower and lower in the national urban pecking order while other regions grow.

 

But Northeast Ohio could vault back into the top 20 regions in the U.S. if it merged Metropolitan Statistical Areas to better reflect the region’s economic clout.

 

more:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/04/noaca-launches-regional-discussion-on-merging-metropolitan-statistical-areas-to-boost-neo-in-national-rankings.html

Check out the conversation in the Ohio and Cleveland population thread respectively.

Since my other discussion got shutdown when certain users didn’t like how things are changing in the world... I’m posting this article here which basically sums up the points I was making.  The main point being, we (Cleveland especially) need regionalism ASAP.  
 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/06/working-from-home-trend-could-imperil-some-northeast-ohio-communities.html

The point about merging the Cleveland and Akron MSA's came to mind when I read in the ABJ the news about biotech Athersys putting its production facility in Stow.  This is nice news for Stow (up to 400 jobs), but HUGE news for Cleveland-headquartered Athersys.  Yet, so far, none of the Cleveland media have covered it; and it's arguably bigger news for Cleveland than for Akron. 

 

Akron civic sensibilities cannot yet subordinate their pride and tradition to the need for a single-market identity.  But I think Cleveland media should on their own  decide to call Twinsburg, Hudson, Streetsboro, Kent, and maybe even Bath, Stow and Fairlawn "suburban" without specifying whose suburb they are.  (This assumes that Cleveland media can overcome their own myopia.)

 

EDIT: Crain's just reported the Athersys news.

EDIT2: And now cleveland.com (blurb, more in their Business Journal) has reported it.

2 minutes ago, Dougal said:

The point about merging the Cleveland and Akron MSA's came to mind when I read in the ABJ the news about biotech Athersys putting its production facility in Stow.  This is nice news for Stow (up to 400 jobs), but HUGE news for Cleveland-headquartered Athersys.  Yet, so far, none of the Cleveland media have covered it; and it's arguably bigger news for Cleveland than for Akron. 

 

Akron civic sensibilities cannot yet subordinate their pride and tradition to the need for a single-market identity.  But I think Cleveland media should on their own  decide to call Twinsburg, Hudson, Streetsboro, Kent, and maybe even Bath, Stow and Fairlawn "suburban" without specifying whose suburb they are.  (This assumes that Cleveland media can overcome their own myopia.)

 

I'm not happy they're putting it in Stow. Why put it there? Why not put it in Cleveland in the Health Tech Corridor??

25 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I'm not happy they're putting it in Stow. Why put it there? Why not put it in Cleveland in the Health Tech Corridor??

This would've been a good opportunity corridor project.  

 

This was close to landing within Cuyahoga County. 

Edited December 7, 20204 yr by freefourur

People in this region must love governments because we sure do have a lot of them....

 

18 hours ago, freefourur said:

This would've been a good opportunity corridor project.  

 

This was close to landing within Cuyahoga County. 

 

DO you have insight as to why it didn't land here?

28 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said:

 

DO you have insight as to why it didn't land here?

I don't have any specific insights. My guess would be a more generous incentive structure was offered by Summit County. It's a similar refrain to most site selection strategies. I believe there was an out of state site as well, although this was probably just leverage for the State money.

3 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

 

DO you have insight as to why it didn't land here?

Isn't the usual reason taxes?

Moving this discussion from the Cleveland population thread. 

 

1 hour ago, skiwest said:

Speaking of population, whatever happened with the annexation of East Cleveland?  Is that no longer being pursued?

 

 

1 hour ago, seicer said:

 

I hope not. Cleveland would be gaining one of the fastest draining cities in America.

 

That was discussed extensively in this thread a few years back - link to that convo below.  Short summary: EC mayor pushed and promoted the merger of EC w Cleveland, and had a reasonable proposal.  Then the EC city council came up with a completely ridiculous set of demands. Cleveland city council essentially said “come back when you’re serious.” And the discussion has gone nowhere since.

 

For the record, I think it would be a good idea to merge. Obviously EC has way more to gain than Cleveland, but I do think Cleveland also benefits.  Having a rotting city right next door makes it harder to stabilize the area. UC development could more easily expand to the northeast.  And there would be the top-line population boost for Cleveland.  And it is a step in the right direction towards regionalism.

 

I’m also a proponent of merging in Lynndale (which ABSOLUTELY should not exist as its own entity) and Newburgh Heights.

 

On 12/11/2020 at 12:48 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Moving this discussion from the Cleveland population thread. 

 

 

 

That was discussed extensively in this thread a few years back - link to that convo below.  Short summary: EC mayor pushed and promoted the merger of EC w Cleveland, and had a reasonable proposal.  Then the EC city council came up with a completely ridiculous set of demands. Cleveland city council essentially said “come back when you’re serious.” And the discussion has gone nowhere since.

 

For the record, I think it would be a good idea to merge. Obviously EC has way more to gain than Cleveland, but I do think Cleveland also benefits.  Having a rotting city right next door makes it harder to stabilize the area. UC development could more easily expand to the northeast.  And there would be the top-line population boost for Cleveland.  And it is a step in the right direction towards regionalism.

 

I’m also a proponent of merging in Lynndale (which ABSOLUTELY should not exist as its own entity) and Newburgh Heights.

 

Agree with @Boomerang_Brian one successful small step towards regionalism would be a great step towards a larger regionalism process. The continued tradition of ignoring struggling communities such as East Cleveland threatens Cleveland itself - we are only as strong as our weakest link.  Rather than avoiding our troubled communities we should be trying to figure out how to strengthen them through economic incentives for home owners and businesses and systemic efforts to reward educators and successful students/families.  Cleveland’s daytime core population is at its highest ever and the downtown is growing -a model of urban revitalization - but we ignore our  problems in the region at risk to everyone. A Regionalism master plan could be the catalyst to start addressing problems that are generations old and that won’t ever go away just because we don’t want to take them on. 

14 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Agree with @Boomerang_Brian one successful small step towards regionalism would be a great step towards a larger regionalism process. The continued tradition of ignoring struggling communities such as East Cleveland threatens Cleveland itself - we are only as strong as our weakest link.  Rather than avoiding our troubled communities we should be trying to figure out how to strengthen them through economic incentives for home owners and businesses and systemic efforts to reward educators and successful students/families.  Cleveland’s daytime core population is at its highest ever and the downtown is growing -a model of urban revitalization - but we ignore our  problems in the region at risk to everyone. A Regionalism master plan could be the catalyst to start addressing problems that are generations old and that won’t ever go away just because we don’t want to take them on. 

 

Would be helpful if the County could come up with some EC-infrastructure-improvement funds to use as an incentive for Cleveland-EC merger.  Repaving is well behind, and some streetscape improvements along the major corridors would be a big help.

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

 

Would be helpful if the County could come up with some EC-infrastructure-improvement funds to use as an incentive for Cleveland-EC merger.  Repaving is well behind, and some streetscape improvements along the major corridors would be a big help.

 

Does anyone have any idea how much the Cuyahoga County Land Bank has had on East Cleveland itself?  People I don't think understand how successful some of Cleveland's hot neighborhoods are right now from a land bank perspective.  When they are tearing down tax delinquent abandoned homes and you can sell that land for a nice profit with a new build (the land bank doing the new construction) it just goes to show how they are turning these unproductive properties into much productive use.  I know East Cleveland is not there yet, but I have always been surprised by some of the bones of that suburb.  It's on a rail line and close to some major employment centers.  The land bank being one entity that has no doubt helped EC in some way.

I come from a family of firemen. Both grandfathers were firemen, as are three of my uncles. But holy sh** do we need to regionalize based on fire departments alone. 

 

Example 3,934,485 of public unions holding communities hostage. For reference, Parma Heights is a city of about 20,00 residents. It has a fire department of about 25 firemen. 11 of those firemen made over $100,000 last year. Parma Heights responded to 29 fires in Parma Heights last year. Of those 29 fires, EVERY. SINGLE. FIRE. received mutual aid from an adjacent city. This is just one city, I'm sure there are a litany of these in the county. 

 

Look at these:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parma+Fire+Department/Parma+Heights+Fire+Department,+6184+Pearl+Rd,+Parma+Heights,+OH+44130/@41.3864494,-81.7535194,15.25z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x0:0x8f0debef605ae82b!2m2!1d-81.734105!2d41.383181!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eeb7b270fd97:0xfb1ccb4c580dc661!2m2!1d-81.7588463!2d41.3934476!3e0

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parma+Fire+Station+1/Parma+Heights+Fire+Department,+6184+Pearl+Rd,+Parma+Heights,+OH+44130/@41.4005242,-81.7567047,14z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x0:0xdaad96f1cdbf8ed3!2m2!1d-81.7389178!2d41.4088996!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eeb7b270fd97:0xfb1ccb4c580dc661!2m2!1d-81.7588463!2d41.3934476!3e0

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parma+Fire+Station+5/Parma+Heights+Fire+Department,+6184+Pearl+Rd,+Parma+Heights,+OH+44130/@41.3650541,-81.7577286,17.75z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830e96ac95d20b5:0xa6d52bf91fb6bbda!2m2!1d-81.7572099!2d41.3642323!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eeb7b270fd97:0xfb1ccb4c580dc661!2m2!1d-81.7588463!2d41.3934476!3e0 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parma+Heights+Fire+Department+Parma+Heights+Fire+Department,+6184+Pearl+Rd,+Parma+Heights,+OH+44130/Middleburg+Heights+Fire+Department/@41.3809868,-81.801576,14.5z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eeb7b270fd97:0xfb1ccb4c580dc661!2m2!1d-81.7588463!2d41.3934476!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eb979953d339:0x472382547c68c2b8!2m2!1d-81.8102586!2d41.3720358!3e0

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parma+Heights+Fire+Department+Parma+Heights+Fire+Department,+6184+Pearl+Rd,+Parma+Heights,+OH+44130/Brook+Park+Fire+Department,+Holland+Road,+Brook+Park,+OH/@41.3867208,-81.8072429,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eeb7b270fd97:0xfb1ccb4c580dc661!2m2!1d-81.7588463!2d41.3934476!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830ec7e6bca7561:0x935c1ed59afa8e3b!2m2!1d-81.8208137!2d41.3941161!3e0 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Parma+Heights+Fire+Department+Parma+Heights+Fire+Department,+6184+Pearl+Rd,+Parma+Heights,+OH+44130/North+Royalton+Fire+Station+No.+2/@41.3380885,-81.7577211,15.25z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830eeb7b270fd97:0xfb1ccb4c580dc661!2m2!1d-81.7588463!2d41.3934476!1m5!1m1!1s0x8830e99823fa3f09:0x359c17b20e040a0a!2m2!1d-81.7584919!2d41.3363106!3e0

 

 

 

National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1710 Standards of Response establishes standards for response time for full-time paid departments: 
 

Turnout time

80 seconds is allotted for turnout time. This defines the period of time after a station receives an audible fire alarm tone and the moment when firefighters are in their apparatus and are under way.
 

Arrival time

Four minutes (240 seconds) or less for the arrival of the first arriving engine company at a fire suppression incident and/or 8 minutes (480 seconds) or less for the deployment of a full first alarm assignment at a fire suppression incident.

Four minutes (240 seconds) or less for the arrival of a unit with first responder or higher level capability at an emergency medical incident.

Eight minutes (480 seconds) or less for the arrival of an advanced life support (paramedic) unit at an emergency medical incident, where this service is provided by the fire department.

According to NFPA 1710, "The fire department shall establish a performance objective of not less than 90% for the achievement of each response time objective specified..."

Staffing (Crew Size)
For a residential structure fire, recommended initial deployment is 15 firefighters.  This almost guarantees a "mutual aid" request at the time of first alarm for most suburban departments.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

I come from a family of firemen. Both grandfathers were firemen, as are three of my uncles. But holy sh** do we need to regionalize based on fire departments alone. 

 

Example 3,934,485 of public unions holding communities hostage. For reference, Parma Heights is a city of about 20,00 residents. It has a fire department of about 25 firemen. 11 of those firemen made over $100,000 last year. Parma Heights responded to 29 fires in Parma Heights last year. Of those 29 fires, EVERY. SINGLE. FIRE. received mutual aid from an adjacent city. This is just one city, I'm sure there are a litany of these in the county. 

 

 

 

I happen to know a Parma Heights fireman.  In Parma Heights (and maybe elsewhere) something like 99% of their job is ambulance runs.  So looking at just "fires" is missing the larger part of their mission. 

 

I also know that the Parma Heights firemen all have certifications as both firemen and EMTs, which is quite different from the situation in the City of Cleveland (although maybe this is changing).  I have heard complaints that they were understaffed for a number of years, which probably means more expensive overtime factoring into those pay figures as well.  I don't know if it has always been that way (maybe your uncles can weigh in), and I don't know what pay scales are like elsewhere, but I don't think this is a case of a union holding Parma Heights hostage just because almost half the department makes a good living and they don't spend a lot of time fighting fires. 

 

I believe that Dispatch has been regionalized to some degree.  And not every department has a long-ladder truck, etc.  The mutual-aid agreements between cities mean that not every city has to have every piece of equipment or be fully staffed to handle a fire.  (I also don't know if Parma charges Parma Heights for coming out for a mutual aid situation -- if everyone is doing almost exclusively EMT runs, I can imagine that all the firefighters in a region are going to WANT to go to every fire that they can!) 

1 minute ago, Foraker said:

 

I happen to know a Parma Heights fireman.  In Parma Heights (and maybe elsewhere) something like 99% of their job is ambulance runs.  So looking at just "fires" is missing the larger part of their mission. 

 

I also know that the Parma Heights firemen all have certifications as both firemen and EMTs, which is quite different from the situation in the City of Cleveland (although maybe this is changing).  I have heard complaints that they were understaffed for a number of years, which probably means more expensive overtime factoring into those pay figures as well.  I don't know if it has always been that way (maybe your uncles can weigh in), and I don't know what pay scales are like elsewhere, but I don't think this is a case of a union holding Parma Heights hostage just because almost half the department makes a good living and they don't spend a lot of time fighting fires. 

 

I believe that Dispatch has been regionalized to some degree.  And not every department has a long-ladder truck, etc.  The mutual-aid agreements between cities mean that not every city has to have every piece of equipment or be fully staffed to handle a fire.  (I also don't know if Parma charges Parma Heights for coming out for a mutual aid situation -- if everyone is doing almost exclusively EMT runs, I can imagine that all the firefighters in a region are going to WANT to go to every fire that they can!) 

 

I know a few of them as well. And I'm not trying to disparage anyone - but again, that salary and staffing for a fire department in a city that's barely 4sq mi is INSANE. 

 

In 2016, the firemen tried to amend the city charter to include mandatory levels of staffing. 

 

My point is - ignore regionalizing Cuyahoga as a whole - if you even just took North Royalton, Parma, Middleburgh Heights, and Parma Heights, and made one consolidated FD - you could probably reduce 20% of the staffing and have fewer, better located station. 

 

Municipalities continue to be strapped for cash, but the public unions are the primary reason why regionalization is a four letter word. 

24 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I know a few of them as well. And I'm not trying to disparage anyone .  .  .  .  but the public unions are the primary reason why regionalization is a four letter word. 

I know what you mean, but don't you think that your firefighter union friends might think they were being disparaged?   :-)

 

And I still disagree.  I think that it doesn't matter what community you're a resident of, people fear losing control of "their" services.  So (insert city name -- Parma Heights) has made the choice to pay for their own fire DEPARTMENT rather than risk having (insert neighboring city -- Parma) decide not to put any fire stations within the city limits of Parma Heights.  Even if there is no significant change in the actual service offered and it cuts costs.  I think this is even more true for police departments than fire, and I think that perception is a bigger hurdle to overcome than any union.  You can add garbage collection, water and sewer maintenance, snowplowing, street repair -- residents don't want to call down to the county office to get their problem resolved, they want someone local. 

 

So the trick may be, how can we ease into regionalism, and how can we do regionalism in a smart way that doesn't make residents feel like a nameless number facing a large remote bureaucracy.  Maybe start by consolidating dispatch for emergency services, but don't make the region too large.  Maybe the county only needs one SWAT team.  Maybe highrise ladder trucks can be strategically positioned based on the location of highrise buildings without regard to community boundary lines.  Coordinate local fire stations with a cluster of communities to meet the NFPA standards, without initially leaving any community without any stations; maybe in another 20-40 years you won't need to replace those stations.  Maybe one community agrees to store the salt for a cluster of communities, and another community in the cluster collects and sorts the trash and recycling for transfer to the landfill.  It won't be easy.

 

Maybe we just aren't thinking long-term enough -- boil that frog over 50 years rather than despair that we aren't moving to regionalize everything overnight to the level of maximum efficiency we can currently calculate.

 

This can be an interesting way for local municipalities to collaborate on regional issues:

 

New lakefront special improvement district could lead to new Lake Erie trails following innovative Euclid example

Steven Litt - Cleveland.com - Apr. 12, 2021

 

"The City of Euclid and 12 Lake County communities recently incorporated Ohio’s first lakefront special improvement district to help property owners finance expensive and urgently needed erosion control projects along the Lake Erie shoreline. Ultimately, however, the district could become a vehicle to open new public trails along vast stretches of private lakefront land that limit access to one of Ohio’s greatest natural resources. ... She called the district an unusual example of collaboration across municipal and county lines in a home rule state where localities often compete. Participating communities are Euclid, Willowick, Eastlake, Village of Lakeline, Village of Timberlake, Willoughby, Mentor, Mentor-on-the-Lake, Fairport Harbor, Painesville, Perry Township, North Perry Village, and Madison Township."

From the City Club Apartments thread:

 

33 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Why does this transaction have to be so complicated.

 

Yeah, why does everything in this city have to be so convoluted and byzantine? What restaurant has held their grand opening anywhere near their original stated opening date?  How many new buildings have been delayed by months of meetings and panels and round-tables and comment sessions and frivolous lawsuits?

 

We have a century of bureaucratic inertia that needs to be dealt with.  Slowly folding things into the county would help. Maybe we need to start with "back of house" things that the every day person doesn't really deal with.

7 hours ago, originaljbw said:

From the City Club Apartments thread:

 

 

Yeah, why does everything in this city have to be so convoluted and byzantine? What restaurant has held their grand opening anywhere near their original stated opening date?  How many new buildings have been delayed by months of meetings and panels and round-tables and comment sessions and frivolous lawsuits?

 

We have a century of bureaucratic inertia that needs to be dealt with.  Slowly folding things into the county would help. Maybe we need to start with "back of house" things that the every day person doesn't really deal with.

 

how does "folding things into the county" help? why not address the problems of the city and find better solutions. These are processes. Giving up your own store and just adopting the processes of another organization--who has absolutely no experience in the city in older properties in older neighborhoods with different, denser conditions--better? Constant talk of giving things to the county is utter nonsense.

7 hours ago, originaljbw said:

From the City Club Apartments thread:

 

 

Yeah, why does everything in this city have to be so convoluted and byzantine? What restaurant has held their grand opening anywhere near their original stated opening date?  How many new buildings have been delayed by months of meetings and panels and round-tables and comment sessions and frivolous lawsuits?

 

We have a century of bureaucratic inertia that needs to be dealt with.  Slowly folding things into the county would help. Maybe we need to start with "back of house" things that the every day person doesn't really deal with.

What has been done to install ANY confidence that putting things under the control of county leaders will make things better or quicker?  There has been a long-standing history of corruption and "self enrichment" going back to the days of Porter, McFaul, Dimora and Russo.  It has evolved into new scandals concerning development, projects and leadership of Budish/county executive form of government that we have today.  It will be going from one mess of bureaucratic problems to another.      

8 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

how does "folding things into the county" help? 

 

I'm not sure if it's applicable in the case of property and title transfers, but there is a lot of duplication of services provided by both the city and the county. The argument goes that of the city and county governments were to merge it would would eliminate those redundancies saving money. Would imagine that would be true of procedural things like this as well, though again I don't know for certain.

 

Merging the city and the county would also allow for a more coherent zoning and regional planning. To pull something in from another thread, the tech startup that moved to beechwood could have been directed downtown, or at the very least that tax revenue would still be going to the same pot to improve public services. 

4 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

What has been done to install ANY confidence that putting things under the control of county leaders will make things better or quicker?  There has been a long-standing history of corruption and "self enrichment" going back to the days of Porter, McFaul, Dimora and Russo.  It has evolved into new scandals concerning development, projects and leadership of Budish/county executive form of government that we have today.  It will be going from one mess of bureaucratic problems to another.      

Honestly, just updating city hall technology out of the stone age would go a long way. 

Both the county and the city have a long history of corruption not to mention plain ol' incompetence. Any observer of how things are done here will come to the conclusion that as Pogo once said "We have met the enemy and he is us." It starts with self serving politicians and filters down to lazy government workers who put in a 2-3 hour work day. Add in a layer of general bureaucratic inertia and you get a region stuck in first gear. And because we don't demand change we've become a population that accepts a low bar. It is what it is to coin a phrase. Pisses me off but l don't see any change on the horizon.

On 12/7/2020 at 3:56 PM, Dougal said:

The point about merging the Cleveland and Akron MSA's came to mind when I read in the ABJ the news about biotech Athersys putting its production facility in Stow.  This is nice news for Stow (up to 400 jobs), but HUGE news for Cleveland-headquartered Athersys.  Yet, so far, none of the Cleveland media have covered it; and it's arguably bigger news for Cleveland than for Akron. 

 

Akron civic sensibilities cannot yet subordinate their pride and tradition to the need for a single-market identity.  But I think Cleveland media should on their own  decide to call Twinsburg, Hudson, Streetsboro, Kent, and maybe even Bath, Stow and Fairlawn "suburban" without specifying whose suburb they are.  (This assumes that Cleveland media can overcome their own myopia.)

 

EDIT: Crain's just reported the Athersys news.

EDIT2: And now cleveland.com (blurb, more in their Business Journal) has reported it.

 

The northern Summit County suburbs where I used to live have no great loyalty to either Cleveland or Akron.  Neither do some of the southern Cuyahoga.   They can be considered the "borderland" of sorts.   All of Medina and Portage counties fall into this category as well.

 

Cleveland-Akron would make sense like Dallas-Fort Worth or Minneapolis-St Paul.  Canton might lose some identity, as Akron's current junior partner.   But Parma is even bigger than Canton.

Posting this post here

 

 

 

 

The only chance actual regionalism and mergers happen here is if almost all of the cities simultaneously agree to do so. And that's never going to happen, yet unfortunately the only way that would be appealing to do so. Fairview, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, Parma (and other inner ring suburbs bordering Cleveland) would have absolutely no reason to merge with Cleveland, especially with the school system no where close to comparable even to these suburbs and lack of resources for police. Even though erroneous, the suburbanite belief would be that it would now be a free for all for criminals to run rampant in their once peaceful neighborhoods. The only suburb that would gain from merging is East Cleveland but why in the hell should Cleveland do that when it would only lead to more liabilities and resources on an already strained system (police obviously being one of them). The only way I see suburbs even think about merging is if they all agree to it at the same time, allowing them to exert their influence on city hall more easily, but again, fat chance suburbanites would even consider the thought of having their address say "Cleveland, OH"

10 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

The only chance actual regionalism and mergers happen here is if almost all of the cities simultaneously agree to do so. And that's never going to happen, yet unfortunately the only way that would be appealing to do so. Fairview, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, Parma (and other inner ring suburbs bordering Cleveland) would have absolutely no reason to merge with Cleveland, especially with the school system no where close to comparable even to these suburbs and lack of resources for police. Even though erroneous, the suburbanite belief would be that it would now be a free for all for criminals to run rampant in their once peaceful neighborhoods. The only suburb that would gain from merging is East Cleveland but why in the hell should Cleveland do that when it would only lead to more liabilities and resources on an already strained system (police obviously being one of them). The only way I see suburbs even think about merging is if they all agree to it at the same time, allowing them to exert their influence on city hall more easily, but again, fat chance suburbanites would even consider the thought of having their address say "Cleveland, OH"

I don't know.  I could see two alternative paths. 

 

First, groups of neighboring cities could increasingly pool resources  and collaborating more and more over time until they "might as well" merge  -- just as an example, let's say Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, University Heights, South Euclid all sharing road salt purchasing and police/fire dispatch; coordinating traffic signal timing; sharing ladder trucks and SWAT; sharing a jail/criminal intake facility; sharing emergency mental health task force; closely watching statutes in each city and aligning them over time -- in 30-40 years the only difference might be elected officials and they might finally decide to cut costs and form a regional government.

 

Second, the county government could take on more and more -- maybe the county buys salt in bulk for all the cities in the county, maybe all criminals are processed into the county jail, maybe the county takes on more road maintenance on behalf of cities (sort of a contract manager -- and because they have a dedicated staff "doing it all the time" they could be more efficient and less expensive than individual cities doing it), and maybe the County pushes neighboring city collaboration -- until some point where the county is more efficient than the city, and individual cities start "merging" with the county and letting the county handle their affairs.

 

I think we're a long, long way off from either scenario, but I see those as just as likcly as the all-in, all-at-once scenario.

 

(Ironically, I lived in suburban Cincinnati for a time -- almost everyone said that they were from "Cincinnati" and used "Cincinnati, OH" as their address even when they were miles from the actual city of Cincinnati, which is a much smaller land area in the Cincinnati region than the city of Cleveland is in the Cleveland area.)

After living in Columbus for 10 years, I couldn’t help but notice how redundant our suburbs are. Suburbs that already share resources like schools, fire/EMS, etc. (Parma, Parma Hts, and 7 hills also Mayfield, HH, Mayfield Hts) should combine. The irony that these suburbs are more conservative but then clearly want duplicative government is funny. I agree that if suburbs did merge it would need to be a group situation. With that said, the first contenders would be: Linndale, Bratenahl, EC and Brooklyn. the first two already “use” Cleveland schools, the third needs help, and Brooklyn just makes overall sense.

Cities that share school districts seem to make sense for mergers.

 

• South Euclid & Lyndhurst (richmond Hts SD is so small the RH could probaly combine too)
• Mayfield Hts, Mayfield Vlg, Highland Hts, Gates Mills
• Parma, Parma Hts., Seven Hills
• Brecksville, Broadview Hts.
• Cleveland, Newburgh Hts, Linndale , Bratenahl (unlikely)

Many others that I'm missing

2 hours ago, Foraker said:

I don't know.  I could see two alternative paths. 

 

First, groups of neighboring cities could increasingly pool resources  and collaborating more and more over time until they "might as well" merge  -- just as an example, let's say Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, University Heights, South Euclid all sharing road salt purchasing and police/fire dispatch; coordinating traffic signal timing; sharing ladder trucks and SWAT; sharing a jail/criminal intake facility; sharing emergency mental health task force; closely watching statutes in each city and aligning them over time -- in 30-40 years the only difference might be elected officials and they might finally decide to cut costs and form a regional government.

 

Second, the county government could take on more and more -- maybe the county buys salt in bulk for all the cities in the county, maybe all criminals are processed into the county jail, maybe the county takes on more road maintenance on behalf of cities (sort of a contract manager -- and because they have a dedicated staff "doing it all the time" they could be more efficient and less expensive than individual cities doing it), and maybe the County pushes neighboring city collaboration -- until some point where the county is more efficient than the city, and individual cities start "merging" with the county and letting the county handle their affairs.

 

I think we're a long, long way off from either scenario, but I see those as just as likcly as the all-in, all-at-once scenario.

 

(Ironically, I lived in suburban Cincinnati for a time -- almost everyone said that they were from "Cincinnati" and used "Cincinnati, OH" as their address even when they were miles from the actual city of Cincinnati, which is a much smaller land area in the Cincinnati region than the city of Cleveland is in the Cleveland area.)

 

And many cities already share services like police dispatch. I think if suburbs adjacent to each other merged first, it could pave the way for a County consolidation. Even merging amongst suburbs however would start to make things more efficient, decreasing the number (I think it's 57) of governments would help!

7 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

 

And many cities already share services like police dispatch. I think if suburbs adjacent to each other merged first, it could pave the way for a County consolidation. Even merging amongst suburbs however would start to make things more efficient, decreasing the number (I think it's 57) of governments would help!

Out of curiosity, did Chris Ronayne have any official position on consolidation?    I agree that there is so much the region could benefit from.  Would love to see a county wide refuse and recycling pickup, but I'm sure all the employees in the little fiefdoms (lead by Cleveland) would fight against losing their jobs.  

34 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Out of curiosity, did Chris Ronayne have any official position on consolidation?    I agree that there is so much the region could benefit from.  Would love to see a county wide refuse and recycling pickup, but I'm sure all the employees in the little fiefdoms (lead by Cleveland) would fight against losing their jobs.  

 

 

i dk, but i should ask my cousin's spouse to ask him. she posted a pic of her and roynayne on her fb yesterday lol. yeah she is very active in local politics.

3 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Out of curiosity, did Chris Ronayne have any official position on consolidation?    I agree that there is so much the region could benefit from.  Would love to see a county wide refuse and recycling pickup, but I'm sure all the employees in the little fiefdoms (lead by Cleveland) would fight against losing their jobs.  

Having a well-respected county executive should make getting things done a lot easier -- whether that includes any consolidation of municipalities or not.  Looking forward to seeing whether the optimism is warranted.

Assuming none others did; Imagine if all major Midwest cities combined with their surrounding county, by 2020 census:

 

Top 15 cities by population:

1.     New York 8,0804,190

2.     Chicago-Cook: 5,275,541

3.     Los Angeles: 3,898,747

4.     Houston: 2,304,580

5.     Detroit-Wayne: 1,793,561

6.     Phoenix: 1,608,139

7.     Philadelphia: 1,603,797

8.     San Antonio 1,434,625

9.     San Diego 1,386,932

10.  Columbus-Franklin 1,323,807

11.  Dallas 1,304,379

12.  St. Louis Combined: 1,298,774

13.  Cleveland-Cuyahoga 1,249,387

14.  Pittsburgh-Allegany 1,238,090

15.  San Jose 1,013,240

Indianapolis-Marion 971102

Buffalo-Erie 950683

Milwaukee Combined 928059

Cincinnati-Hamilton 826139

 

 

 

 

Regionalism is a topic that comes up every now and then. Usually prompted by some event or another. Then all of us progressive thinkers opine on all the positives that would occur if we could somehow herd the many, many local officials and (even more difficult) the populace of all the cities that make up Cuyahoga County into creating some type of uni-gov. 

 

Unfortunately, if we're being honest, we know it's not going to happen. There are too many entrenched interests, too many people who would actually lose something, even if looking at the big picture, they would derive more benefits from a consolidation than they would lose. It would mean somehow overcoming those objectives. It would require a massive amount of education and even then it won't happen. There are way too many people in the County who let fear of change prevent them from making positive decisions. 

 

I think while the County does produce many people who aren't afraid of change, who aren't afraid to think big I also think a lot of them look around, see all the mental and financial roadblocks and...just move on to a more "can do" type of city. That makes it even harder for the rest of us who do want progress. One thing I have noticed in visiting numerous ex-Clevelanders around the country is that many of them moved to cities with a very different attitude. Cities that believe if they can think it they can do it. We're not like that. After we think it our next thought it why we can't do it. It's a problem that I believe is a result of decades of lose and dis-investment, lack of a more educated people and an economy that is still based too much on producing things and not enough on creating ideas. Look, I AM a huge proponent of "making things" but an economy based on too much of that and not enough on ideas will necessarily produce a populace that can be afraid of risk, afraid of new ideas. Ideas like consolidated county government.

 

 

Regionalism is one of the best solutions to the hugely inefficient, cumbersome and wasteful Cuyahoga County setup. Unfortunately it is also something that will probably never happen due to all the entrenched interests, inertia and small-minded voters.