all the money saved ditching the duplicated governments and services would be astronomical. not to mention the ability to simplify to get things done. what a waste.

The good news is if those of us on this forum were a majority of the County population regionalism would be a done deal. The bad news is we are a minority group.

Well, have lots of kids and teach your children well!

Moving this conversation from the development thread:

1 hour ago, MVH said:

I once did a geographical size comparison to Columbus whereby if Cleveland was expanded to the same physical extent, absorbing first ring suburbs in each direction their populations would be the same.

 

Point being, Cleveland was cannibalized early, creating these now desperate aging entities providing the competition for new development.

 

I would be curious to see how other peer cities compare in size and suburbanization.

 

Not to mention exurban sprawl, the car dependent poison that keeps on giving.

 

I see inner ring mergers with Cleveland as a partial solution: Lakewood, Cle Hts, Shaker Hts, Garfield, our friends in EC, Brooklyn, Rocky River, Fairview, etc

 

Behold NEW CLEVELAND

 

40 minutes ago, MVH said:

Another unmentioned issue is that CCA is competing with RITA for municipal income tax management with RITA seemingly ahead in terms of efficiency(?)  I only deal with CCA now and their processes are laughable which I believe contributes to nastiness when a "client" has any questions.

 

It's obvious however that these competing entities are creating unnecessary complications in the tax process, much like the suburban chaos generally, and the anti-city tax sharing Work City vs Resident City codes handed down from our city-hating State Legislature.

My initial reaction is that an all county merger makes the most sense. I fully recognize that it is a political long shot, but I think it would be easier (not easy, just easier) than an inner ring merger, as “New Cleveland” could be built on the county government merging w Cleveland city gov. Inner ring merger probably requires each individual city government agreeing; county merger probably only requires a countywide vote. 
 

A more realistic path would be forcing the smaller immediate neighbors already in Cleveland city schools to merge to CLE - Linndale and Newburgh Heights, plus East Cleveland. And also encourage other cities in the county to merge w each other, probably along school district boundaries. EG - Parma & Parma Heights & Seven Hills; Solon & Glenwillow; Warrensville & North Randall & Highland Hills. Having 59 municipalities in the county for 1.2M residents is completely absurd. I do wonder if state legislation could be created to encourage these mergers. 
 

I’m also a proponent of more regionalism, like the 911 system for the southeastern part of the county.

I mostly did this to shut up Columbus, as the Cleveland CSA is still the largest population in Ohio.

I dunno. None of these things will happen as long as ODOT keeps widening freeways and little villages have virgin land to offer those building the housing pyramid scheme.

 

I suppose the only solution is to keep giving it away free to Cleveland's developers until the surrounding communities collapse further and end up wanting Cleveland to take over their mess.

 

At the least Cleveland's building department should force quality, durable construction. CCA should work to upgrade their technology and process.

 

I wonder if these development welfare queens know about the East Side?

1 hour ago, MVH said:

I mostly did this to shut up Columbus, as the Cleveland CSA is still the largest population in Ohio.

I dunno. None of these things will happen as long as ODOT keeps widening freeways and little villages have virgin land to offer those building the housing pyramid scheme.

 

I suppose the only solution is to keep giving it away free to Cleveland's developers until the surrounding communities collapse further and end up wanting Cleveland to take over their mess.

 

At the least Cleveland's building department should force quality, durable construction. CCA should work to upgrade their technology and process.

 

I wonder if these development welfare queens know about the East Side?

Problem is no one recognizes a so-called Cleveland CSA, as it includes other Metro's. Meanwhile Columbus and Cincinnati Metros continue to grow much faster and putting distance between themselves and the Cleveland MSA . Cleveland now being the third largest Metro in the state.

2 hours ago, vulcana said:

Problem is no one recognizes a so-called Cleveland CSA, as it includes other Metro's. Meanwhile Columbus and Cincinnati Metros continue to grow much faster and putting distance between themselves and the Cleveland MSA . Cleveland now being the third largest Metro in the state.

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton is definitely recognized. So not sure if you're saying it doesn't exist or that no one pays as much (or any) attention to that stat as opposed to MSA populations?

 

But yea, the other two large metros in Ohio have been growing steadily, while Cleveland stagnated for the majority of the last 40 years, which is why they caught up and have passed up Cleveland.

 

This doesn't change the growth patterns, but there is something to be said that no portion of Summit or Portage Counties is included in Cleveland's tally and the land area for both Cincy and Cbus' MSAs are larger than that of Cleveland's, roping in counties that don't border the core county.

2 hours ago, vulcana said:

Problem is no one recognizes a so-called Cleveland CSA, as it includes other Metro's. Meanwhile Columbus and Cincinnati Metros continue to grow much faster and putting distance between themselves and the Cleveland MSA . Cleveland now being the third largest Metro in the state.

Yeah, measuring city population is at least somewhat arbitrary no matter how you do it. City boundaries are highly arbitrary, and county boundaries (and thus MSA) boundaries are still somewhat arbitrary. Which is why my preferred method is census defined urban areas (which is arguably the least arbitrary). This method has Cleveland as the largest city in Ohio by a hair. 

To me all the various ways in which statistions categorize cities just muddies the water. A simply (and obvious, at least to me) way should be the core city/county followed by all contiguous counties. That's it. Sorry Akron.

3 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton is definitely recognized. So not sure if you're saying it doesn't exist or that no one pays as much (or any) attention to that stat as opposed to MSA populations?

 

But yea, the other two large metros in Ohio have been growing steadily, while Cleveland stagnated for the majority of the last 40 years, which is why they caught up and have passed up Cleveland.

 

This doesn't change the growth patterns, but there is something to be said that no portion of Summit or Portage Counties is included in Cleveland's tally and the land area for both Cincy and Cbus' MSAs are larger than that of Cleveland's, roping in counties that don't border the core county.

True, but with the Census Bureau now highlighting Urban areas and less so MSA and CMSA, the connection with other Metro's is even less accepted. This is truly the case with Cleveland and Akron being even less connected under the Urban area designation because of the CVNP, and the Ohio Turnpike, and less contiguous cities with dense populations. But this also gives Cleveland a small advantage over Columbus and Cincinnati.

14 hours ago, cadmen said:

To me all the various ways in which statistions categorize cities just muddies the water. A simply (and obvious, at least to me) way should be the core city/county followed by all contiguous counties. That's it. Sorry Akron.

It would do both cities well to come up with a real Cleveland-Akron branding that embraces the strengths of both cities and markets Cleveland-Akron as a brand attached to a region rich in assets and opportunity. Not a Cleveland+ model that was done a decade or more ago. It should be a Dallas-Fort Worth model, less a Miami and Fort Lauderdale deal.

 

In the branding broadcast Akron and Canton's assets and strengths as well as the Greater Cleveland area. In my opinion everything between Sandusky and Geneva, The NFL Hall of Fame to the Rock Hall should be included and marketed appropriately.

Edited March 20, 20232 yr by Mov2Ohio

Countywide laws unify Cuyahoga’s communities, unless they opt out

 

Quote

Cuyahoga County isn’t a municipality, but it sometimes acts like one, passing regional ordinances to unite its 57 cities and two townships under a single rule of law.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/03/countywide-laws-unify-cuyahogas-communities-unless-they-opt-out.html

 

It is interesting that the  county has some municipal-like powers.  This is part of the county reform charter. It could be interesting if the county were to decide to use this authority for more regional efforts. I'm not entirely sure of this even works but it is definitely interesting, 

Regionalization is making more and more sense... but this stat FLOORED me re: how inefficient our current municipal arrangements are... 

 

Other than Cleveland, of the approximately 45 or so municipalities in Cuyahoga County, only FIVE have more than 40,000 residents. Only TWO have more than 50,000. 

57 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Regionalization is making more and more sense... but this stat FLOORED me re: how inefficient our current municipal arrangements are... 

 

Other than Cleveland, of the approximately 45 or so municipalities in Cuyahoga County, only FIVE have more than 40,000 residents. Only TWO have more than 50,000. 

But, regionalization is going to be tough.  I imagine most municipality powers that be don't want to give up their fiefdoms...at least not in my lifetime.

2 minutes ago, DHubb said:

But, regionalization is going to be tough.  I imagine most municipality powers that be don't want to give up their fiefdoms...at least not in my lifetime.

Right. They couldn't even get a deal done with East Cleveland which should have been the easiest one.

11 minutes ago, DHubb said:

But, regionalization is going to be tough.  I imagine most municipality powers that be don't want to give up their fiefdoms...at least not in my lifetime.

 

I think it'll have to start in chunks - Linndale, Brooklyn, Euclid, East Cleveland, Warrensville, Newburgh Heights, and Garfield are all dominoes that could theoretically fall. Most have modest tax bases and shrinking populations, which is a revenue death wish. 

 

Aside from that, I also think it would make sense to see Parma/Parma Heights merge, and same with Cleveland Hts and UH, Berea/Middleburg, Garfield/Maple, Lyndhurst S. Euclid, etc. 

3 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think it'll have to start in chunks - Linndale, Brooklyn, Euclid, East Cleveland, Warrensville, Newburgh Heights, and Garfield are all dominoes that could theoretically fall. Most have modest tax bases and shrinking populations, which is a revenue death wish. 

 

Aside from that, I also think it would make sense to see Parma/Parma Heights merge, and same with Cleveland Hts and UH, Berea/Middleburg, Garfield/Maple, Lyndhurst S. Euclid, etc. 

As I was writing my last post, I was thinking of maybe this effort can start with a piecemeal approach.  Good post!

All of you...stop making sense!

57 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think it'll have to start in chunks - Linndale, Brooklyn, Euclid, East Cleveland, Warrensville, Newburgh Heights, and Garfield are all dominoes that could theoretically fall. Most have modest tax bases and shrinking populations, which is a revenue death wish. 

 

Aside from that, I also think it would make sense to see Parma/Parma Heights merge, and same with Cleveland Hts and UH, Berea/Middleburg, Garfield/Maple, Lyndhurst S. Euclid, etc. 

A few years back, there was a push to merge Moreland Hills, Orange, Woodmere, Pepper Pike, and then it just fizzled out. I'm not sure what it will take to do something. 

3 hours ago, freefourur said:

A few years back, there was a push to merge Moreland Hills, Orange, Woodmere, Pepper Pike, and then it just fizzled out. I'm not sure what it will take to do something. 

 

Same with Parma Heights, Seven Hills, and Parma, which would create a city of about 120,000. 

 

The issue is fearmongering from police and fire unions. When a dispatch center was merged in the cities in 2012 - the Parma Heights fire department responded by putting a referendum on the ballot to amend the city charter to mandate staffing levels of the Fire Department - which is f***ing insane. Fortunately, it failed. 

 

I'm from a family of police and firemen, but these unions are awful. 

Consolidation needs to come from the other direction. Start by merging more departments and services. Hey, Cleveland and Lakewood, why do you have your own library system? Would joining the countywide system be that hard?

 

Or parks. Make it all a division of metroparks. 

 

If, over time, local city governments become more useless, it's going to be a lot easier to get rid of them. 

On 6/29/2023 at 5:35 PM, YABO713 said:

When a dispatch center was merged in the cities in 2012 - the Parma Heights fire department responded by putting a referendum on the ballot to amend the city charter to mandate staffing levels of the Fire Department - which is f***ing insane. Fortunately, it failed. 

 

I'm from a family of police and firemen, but these unions are awful. 

I've seen a lot of unions over the years, some truly awful, but overall Police and Fire are some of the best -- although maybe that's not saying a lot for your experience.

 

I've got to stick up for the Parma Heights FD, however.  The staffing levels issue was separate from the question of dispatch and absolutely necessary.  (As a matter of fact, I don't remember any strong opposition from the PHFD for the merged dispatch at all.) Staffing was a real problem -- they barely had enough guys to run the ambulance and one fire engine safely and were wearing guys pretty ragged and falling behind on the mandated fire-safety inspections for commercial properties.  COVID was awful for them and a couple of guys retired early.  PH wanted to cut staffing even further to save money and the union's call for mandated staffing levels was ignored during negotiations -- until the referendum was put on the ballot.  Thankfully, my understanding is that this was resolved in the contract negotiations and the FD positions were saved.

 

If you only get one guy on an ambulance showing up at your house, or you get two guys who are totally exhausted and feeling rushed to get to a "next call" -- you may be in trouble.  And if you're working your FD to death with ambulance runs, your safety is going to suffer and experienced FD personnel are going to go elsewhere (or retire as soon as they can). 

 

Both police and fire need ongoing training, fitness, alertness -- you can't work them to death or give them too big of an area of responsibility and expect good service. 

 

I do agree that consolidating services is a good practice, and there might be more of it going on than we all realize.  There has been a lot of dispatch consolidation on both sides of town, more cities are turning over their sewer maintenance to the sewer district, more cities are happy to have the Metroparks managing larger parks, lots of cities have cooperation agreements for special fire trucks (ladders) and SWAT, many city service vehicles are purchased in cooperation with a state program to consolidate purchasing at the state level, and don't forget how much we all *LOVE* RITA.

59 minutes ago, originaljbw said:

Consolidation needs to come from the other direction. Start by merging more departments and services. Hey, Cleveland and Lakewood, why do you have your own library system? Would joining the countywide system be that hard?

 

Or parks. Make it all a division of metroparks. 

 

If, over time, local city governments become more useless, it's going to be a lot easier to get rid of them. 

Except patronage and union jobs because popular rallying points for voters, which is why government never tends to shrink. 

 

I have yet to find the figures, but I'd love to find out exactly how many people the City of Cleveland employed in 1950 at peak population vs today.   I'm sure it's a way bigger number today with 1/3 the population. 

They grudgingly reduced the size of Cleveland city council, but that's probably it.  

 

I'd also like to know how many city employees are "double dipping".

3 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

They grudgingly reduced the size of Cleveland city council, but that's probably it.  

 

I'd also like to know how many city employees are "double dipping".

 

That's a drop in the bucket and not even worth discussing when compared to the hundreds of millions (possibly > billion) wasted on maintaining staffing levels and services for 59 municipalities in ONE county. Focus on the big picture, not easy targets.

32 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Except patronage and union jobs because popular rallying points for voters, which is why government never tends to shrink. 

 

I have yet to find the figures, but I'd love to find out exactly how many people the City of Cleveland employed in 1950 at peak population vs today.   I'm sure it's a way bigger number today with 1/3 the population. 

Doubtful considering police alone we have like 1500 less than the 80s

30 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Doubtful considering police alone we have like 1500 less than the 80s

 

Appreciate you posting accurate information.

 

Often times what we think and want to believe is true, couldn't be further from reality.

Edited July 5, 20231 yr by Clefan98

1 minute ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Appreciate you posting accurate information.

 

Often times what we think and want to believe is true, couldn't be further from reality.

The city of Cleveland is still the 7th largest employer in the county with 6757 (according to wikipedia).    I'd still like to know what it was in 1950.    

13 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

The city of Cleveland is still the 7th largest employer in the county with 6757 (according to wikipedia).    I'd still like to know what it was in 1950.    

 

Why and how is that relevant today?

 

But here's what AI says:

 

The exact number of people employed by the city of Cleveland in 1950 is difficult to determine, as specific records from that time are not readily available. However, I can provide you with a general estimate based on the information available.

 

In 1950, Cleveland was a major city with a population of over 900,000 residents. As such, the city government would have required a significant workforce to manage its operations and provide essential services. It is reasonable to assume that over ten thousand individuals were employed by the city during that period.

 

The city of Cleveland encompasses various departments, including public works, police, fire, education, health, and administration. Each department would have employed a considerable number of workers to fulfill their respective roles and responsibilities.

 

To gain a more precise estimate, it would be advisable to consult historical records, archives, or local government sources that may contain detailed employment data for the city of Cleveland in 1950.

This is a recent presentation on regionalism locally that I learned a lot from watching: https://case.edu/law/our-school/events-lectures/regionalism-death-or-salvation-cleveland

 

Based on the presentation, consolidating jurisdictions locally is almost impossible. The speaker raises the idea of merging services and other collaborations. That seems like the most realistic way we can achieve more regional approaches. But doing anything like that with big ticket expenses like police would require a powerful champion to overcome all the obstacles, and I don't see any obvious candidates that could be effective in that role. Very tough to navigate that politically.

 

 

2 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Why and how is that relevant today?

 

But here's what AI says:

 

The exact number of people employed by the city of Cleveland in 1950 is difficult to determine, as specific records from that time are not readily available. However, I can provide you with a general estimate based on the information available.

 

In 1950, Cleveland was a major city with a population of over 900,000 residents. As such, the city government would have required a significant workforce to manage its operations and provide essential services. It is reasonable to assume that over ten thousand individuals were employed by the city during that period.

 

The city of Cleveland encompasses various departments, including public works, police, fire, education, health, and administration. Each department would have employed a considerable number of workers to fulfill their respective roles and responsibilities.

 

To gain a more precise estimate, it would be advisable to consult historical records, archives, or local government sources that may contain detailed employment data for the city of Cleveland in 1950.

Its relevant in that if we have 1/3 the population that we had in 1950, then it would stand to reason there should be 1/3 of the city workforce, roughly.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Its relevant in that if we have 1/3 the population that we had in 1950, then it would stand to reason there should be 1/3 of the city workforce, roughly.  

 

 

 

No, it isn't relevant at all.

 

And as long as the average voter keeps focusing on trivial BS, the real issues plaguing this COUNTY will never get fixed.

 

If you actually care to discuss the nuts and bolts, lookup public employment #'s for Franklin and Allegheny counties, then compare those numbers to Cuyahoga. This will lead you down the right path.

 

 

Edited July 6, 20231 yr by Clefan98

5 hours ago, originaljbw said:

Consolidation needs to come from the other direction. Start by merging more departments and services. Hey, Cleveland and Lakewood, why do you have your own library system? Would joining the countywide system be that hard?

 

Or parks. Make it all a division of metroparks. 

 

If, over time, local city governments become more useless, it's going to be a lot easier to get rid of them. 

 

I absolutely agree that we need to focus our government on becoming a more regional entity -- however, I can speak to the "battle of the libraries" aspect.

The Cuyahoga County Public Library was initially a department of Cleveland Public Library, CPL wanted to expand access to more rural county residents, and an office was established in the basement of the main library downtown with a small team to get this service off the ground. When the CLEVNET system was established in the 70s (The Northeastern Ohio regional library catalog sharing cooperative), each branch outside of the city limits had established themselves with a specialty (architecture, history, religion, medicine, etc...). Those branches, and the unique director of that department, were not interested in having to loan their books outside of the county because they had a more limited budget for replacement materials and programming at that time, and after employee votes and political discourse, what we now know as the Cuyahoga County Public Library was formed, with its own board of directors and wholly separate functions from CPL and CLEVNET. 

Having said that, CLEVNET and CCPL have been in talks many times to form one entity, the closest they ever got was in the early 2000s, which fell through after many months of negotiations, but did result in the joint "Greater Access" library card between the systems. There was a brief period in 2011/12 where officials were meeting, but that didn't last long.

Now, since CPL is a government depository and CCPL is with the inter-state collegiate resource consortium, they are each receiving funds from government entities that they may lose (and thus losing resources for their respective communities) if they combined. It's a tricky subject. So to answer your question, yes, it would be pretty hard and costly for our communities if these libraries merged at this time. 

 

Having said ALL of that, you can walk into any library between Conneaut and Port Clinton and if you ask about Lakewood Public Library, you'll get the same answer: "No one ever goes in, and no one ever comes out." Lakewood is their own little bubble in the the Ohio library world, and no one knows what their deal is besides wanting to be left alone.

15 hours ago, Foraker said:

I've seen a lot of unions over the years, some truly awful, but overall Police and Fire are some of the best -- although maybe that's not saying a lot for your experience.

 

I've got to stick up for the Parma Heights FD, however.  The staffing levels issue was separate from the question of dispatch and absolutely necessary.  (As a matter of fact, I don't remember any strong opposition from the PHFD for the merged dispatch at all.) Staffing was a real problem -- they barely had enough guys to run the ambulance and one fire engine safely and were wearing guys pretty ragged and falling behind on the mandated fire-safety inspections for commercial properties.  COVID was awful for them and a couple of guys retired early.  PH wanted to cut staffing even further to save money and the union's call for mandated staffing levels was ignored during negotiations -- until the referendum was put on the ballot.  Thankfully, my understanding is that this was resolved in the contract negotiations and the FD positions were saved.

 

If you only get one guy on an ambulance showing up at your house, or you get two guys who are totally exhausted and feeling rushed to get to a "next call" -- you may be in trouble.  And if you're working your FD to death with ambulance runs, your safety is going to suffer and experienced FD personnel are going to go elsewhere (or retire as soon as they can). 

 

Both police and fire need ongoing training, fitness, alertness -- you can't work them to death or give them too big of an area of responsibility and expect good service. 

 

I do agree that consolidating services is a good practice, and there might be more of it going on than we all realize.  There has been a lot of dispatch consolidation on both sides of town, more cities are turning over their sewer maintenance to the sewer district, more cities are happy to have the Metroparks managing larger parks, lots of cities have cooperation agreements for special fire trucks (ladders) and SWAT, many city service vehicles are purchased in cooperation with a state program to consolidate purchasing at the state level, and don't forget how much we all *LOVE* RITA.

 

This is pretty much why I opposed the effort to push back on public sector unions a few years back, as did a few other conservatives.    

15 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

That's a drop in the bucket and not even worth discussing when compared to the hundreds of millions (possibly > billion) wasted on maintaining staffing levels and services for 59 municipalities in ONE county. Focus on the big picture, not easy targets.

 

Keep pushing for full merger and the drops will keep dripping.   The former isn't going to happen, and the very idea is toxic to actual consolidation efforts currently in place.

 

The borderlands suburbs between Akron and Cleveland are pretty good about this.   The Nordonia school district covers five municipalities.  Macedonia FD covers three.  Northfield Center does not have its own police, Walton Hills its own fire.

 

Try to force them into Akron or Cleveland and the response will be energetic, highly negative, and quickly succesful.

24 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Keep pushing for full merger and the drops will keep dripping.   The former isn't going to happen, and the very idea is toxic to actual consolidation efforts currently in place.

Attitudes like this are a prime example why major employers from the outside continually pass on northern Ohio. Instead, they choose to invest and build in central Ohio - where government structures aren’t antiquated and bloated. 
 

Mergers would eliminate thousands of unnecessary and overlapping public sector jobs, while reducing tax burdens for its citizens. 
 

A true conservative would be pushing hard for mergers. It’s a damn shame this region will never meet its full potential due to fear and ignorance. 

Edited July 6, 20231 yr by Clefan98

1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

Attitudes like this are a prime example why major employers from the outside continually pass on northern Ohio. Instead, they choose to invest and build in central Ohio - where government structures aren’t antiquated and bloated. 
 

Mergers would eliminate thousands of unnecessary and overlapping public sector jobs, while reducing tax burdens for its citizens. 
 

A true conservative would be pushing hard for mergers. It’s a damn shame this region will never meet its full potential due to fear and ignorance. 

 

Leaving aside the fact that we don't let statist "progressives" define what are true conservatives,  we tend to trust smaller government more than bigger government. Meaning smaller jurisdiction, not smaller size.  It's quite simply more responsive to individuals.  It's also less conducive to ....naw, I'll be nice.

 

 This is not to say that we don't recognize the need to limit the power and reach of smaller government bodies.  In fact, that is a legitimate function of the larger bodies, culminating with the USSC.

15 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Leaving aside the fact that we don't let statist "progressives" define what are true conservatives,  we tend to trust smaller government more than bigger government. Meaning smaller jurisdiction, not smaller size.  It's quite simply more responsive to individuals.  It's also less conducive to ....naw, I'll be nice.

 

 This is not to say that we don't recognize the need to limit the power and reach of smaller government bodies.  In fact, that is a legitimate function of the larger bodies, culminating with the USSC.

 

This is exactly the type of response I expected from a fake conservative. More worried about labeling and meaningless projections then discussing actual issues to make our region more competitive.

 

Thankfully, your generation is losing power and voters each year and every year.

Edited July 6, 20231 yr by Clefan98

2 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

.

 

Edited July 6, 20231 yr by Clefan98

14 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

No, it isn't relevant at all.

 

And as long as the average voter keeps focusing on trivial BS, the real issues plaguing this COUNTY will never get fixed.

 

If you actually care to discuss the nuts and bolts, lookup public employment #'s for Franklin and Allegheny counties, then compare those numbers to Cuyahoga. This will lead you down the right path.

 

 

I just did some quick googling, and couldn't find any hard data, and adding up employment records from all local governments isn't worth my time. Do you have a source on this? 

1 minute ago, Ethan said:

Do you have a source on this? 

 

Yes.

Sometimes we will read about unicorns existing in other places. I think there's some big ones out there in Louisville, lndianapolis and a few other places. But is that true really? When you talk to locals hereabouts no one has actually ever seen one. And what would we do if we did? The rumor is they're really big, giant even. That sounds threatening. 

 

Unicorns? l don't know, probaby just a tale to scare people.

2 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

Attitudes like this are a prime example why major employers from the outside continually pass on northern Ohio. Instead, they choose to invest and build in central Ohio - where government structures aren’t antiquated and bloated. 
 

Mergers would eliminate thousands of unnecessary and overlapping public sector jobs, while reducing tax burdens for its citizens. 
 

A true conservative would be pushing hard for mergers. It’s a damn shame this region will never meet its full potential due to fear and ignorance. 

 

When Intel moved into central Ohio, it didn't move into a well-consolidated municipal-county regional core.  In fact, that would still be the case even if Franklin County and Columbus were completely consolidated.  Intel moved into Licking County.  The analogue in northeast Ohio would be if Cuyahoga County were more consolidated and then a major new employer decided to locate here--in Geauga County.  You have to make a ton of biased assumptions to assume that greater municipal consolidation had anything to do with the major tech builds going into Columbus.  If anything, the placement of most of those major household names' presence in central Ohio will accelerate sprawl and municipal calcification.  That's arguably an acceptable price to pay considering the massive benefits those employers can bring, but it's not like they all located in the heart of the City of Columbus, notwithstanding how much geographically larger it is.  Amazon's data centers in central Ohio are all suburban--three in New Albany, three in Hilliard, and one in Dublin.  Again, you have to make some fairly biased assumptions to assume that the larger regional presence of the City of Columbus somehow convinced those tech giants to locate within the region but outside the City of Columbus.

 

Are the "government structures" of Dublin, Hilliard, and New Albany somehow more "antiquated and bloated" than Westlake, Brecksville, and Solon?

 

I say this as someone generally in favor of regionalism: When I make arguments in favor of regionalism, this ain't one.

10 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

When Intel moved into central Ohio, it didn't move into a well-consolidated municipal-county regional core.  In fact, that would still be the case even if Franklin County and Columbus were completely consolidated.  Intel moved into Licking County.  The analogue in northeast Ohio would be if Cuyahoga County were more consolidated and then a major new employer decided to locate here--in Geauga County.  You have to make a ton of biased assumptions to assume that greater municipal consolidation had anything to do with the major tech builds going into Columbus.  If anything, the placement of most of those major household names' presence in central Ohio will accelerate sprawl and municipal calcification.  That's arguably an acceptable price to pay considering the massive benefits those employers can bring, but it's not like they all located in the heart of the City of Columbus, notwithstanding how much geographically larger it is.  Amazon's data centers in central Ohio are all suburban--three in New Albany, three in Hilliard, and one in Dublin.  Again, you have to make some fairly biased assumptions to assume that the larger regional presence of the City of Columbus somehow convinced those tech giants to locate within the region but outside the City of Columbus.

 

Are the "government structures" of Dublin, Hilliard, and New Albany somehow more "antiquated and bloated" than Westlake, Brecksville, and Solon?

 

I say this as someone generally in favor of regionalism: When I make arguments in favor of regionalism, this ain't one.

 

Thanks for issuing a nicer reply than the one I was writing.   It could also be noted that American Greetings, Ferro, Nestle, and Progressive are all located in the towns you describe.   Places which are smaller, with more accessible governments in charge of things like zoning and building permits.   Oh yeah, Sherwin Williams put the place that might need some special government attention/concession in Brecksville.   

 

Even though Summit County isn't much better than Cuyahoga, Northfield Park Casino made sure its drainage pattern didn't cross into Cuyahoga County.   Their concern was the county, not Walton Hills.   It wasn't quite the same as the L shape in Ford's Willow Run plant, but it was in the same spirit.

 

Lake County is experiencing a lot of business growth.  It's not only "fragmented" by regionalist definitions, if I'm not mistaken it has a Republican run commission.   I know John Plecnik's a commissioner, he's also younger, early 40s at most.    That generation seems to be getting more and more conservative all the time, from what I see.  My contacts aren't politically sorted either, thanks to Holly and my old job.

10 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

Intel moved into Licking County. 

 

How many municipalities exist in Licking County? I bet less than 59.

 

Also, please don't twist my words and make assumptions based on a few sentences. In the end, large companies aren't looking to move into counties where taxes are unnecessarily high due to power-clinging fiefdoms. This limits the competitiveness of our entire region, not just Cuyahoga Co.

2 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

Lake County is experiencing a lot of business growth.

 

Too bad facts don't care about opinions:

 

Just now, Clefan98 said:

How many municipalities exist in Licking County? I bet less than 59.

 

I'm sure.  But we both know that that's not because of regionalism and consolidation; it's because it's a historically largely rural county (still is in the areas that don't abut Columbus).  I'm sure there are fewer than 59 municipalities in Vinton County, too.

 

1 minute ago, Clefan98 said:

Also, please don't twist my words and make assumptions based on a few sentences. In the end, large companies aren't looking to move into counties where taxes are unnecessarily high due to power-clinging fiefdoms. This limits the competitiveness of our entire region, not just Cuyahoga Co.

 

Am I the one making assumptions?  Because I said nothing about why those companies chose the locate in the burbs, I merely observed the empirical fact that they did.  All the causal assumptions here are coming from you.

5 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

All the causal assumptions here are coming from you.

 

My assumptions are based on comparative data and trends. Central Ohio is more attractive to large employers due to a number of factors, and less municipalities in Franklin County is one of them. 

Edited July 6, 20231 yr by Clefan98

43 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Yes.

Care to share with the class? I usually don't like the "please provide a source or your argument is invalid" culture you sometimes find online, but in this instance I'm genuinely curious and spent some time looking and was not able to find anything. 

8 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Care to share with the class? I usually don't like the "please provide a source or your argument is invalid" culture you sometimes find online, but in this instance I'm genuinely curious and spent some time looking and was not able to find anything. 

 

I thought the screenshot I posted would be a damn good hint as to where to find the sourced data. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 20231 yr by Clefan98