I didn't call your idea bad because I'm Cleveland centric (although I am and make no apologies for that). I called your idea bad because...it's a bad idea.

 

Care to expand?  I've explained why my idea makes perfect sense because of geography/continuity.  Your primary argument seems to be that it wouldn't be fair for Cleveland to take the "bad" parts of EC without the "good."  Okay, while I buy that argument if that were the end of the discussion, you first say that Cleveland gets nothing if it only takes the downhill portion of East Cleveland but then go on to imply that there is a ton of untapped potential in that area through being able to expand University Circle up Euclid Avenue (and I've agreed with this sentiment in the past).  If that's true, that alone should be more than enough for Cleveland.  I'm not sure what the plan for the "uphill" portion of East Cleveland might be, but as I mentioned above, it's disconnected from University Circle enough that I see no chance for potential spillover.  I don't know what else Cleveland could possibly have planned for that area, but I see no reason for as much as optimism as there might be for UC expansion into EC.

 

There's two points that I'm making here. Yes, taking East Cleveland would be valuable for Cleveland because of the untapped potential and because developers and Chris Ronayne themselves have SAID that they want to go into East Cleveland. Again, I heard it myself. (So I see optimism as you call it from what I've HEARD him say myself and what others have heard from him AND developers). But the portions of EC that you are talking about are the ones that are worth something/stabilized NOW, not in the future. Those areas are the spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down in an East Cleveland/Cleveland merger. Yes, EC has amazing untapped potential and I don't think that its gonna take that long to tap into that. BUT the areas you're talking about are ready now. And if Cleveland is going to have to do the work to stabilize the area, they should get the spoonful of sugar too. What can Cleveland do to help the "uphill" portion of EC? Having more than 4 patrol cars total would probably help. We have resources that CH does not. In fact, I remember hearing some city councilpeople in CH themselves openly talking about merging with University Heights. They're struggling too. Cleveland is going to have resources from its own coffers, state, Feds, and the private sector to turn EC around. CH doesnt have that. Merging EC as a whole with the city of Cleveland is better than breaking it apart in terms of the uphill portion because we have more resources and more access to resources than Cleveland Heights does. You say what would Cleveland's plan be for the uphill portion, I say what would Cleveland Heights plan be? And finally, yes, it is unfair to give CH the good parts of EC and stick CLE with the bad parts. I'd oppose that on principle alone. That's not the only reason, as I've just outlined, but that is a reason too why I adamantly oppose that idea

 

I see where you're coming from, but I think you're overestimating the stability of those uphill EC neighborhoods.  And we'll just have to agree to disagree about which city can better service that neighborhood.  Cleveland has a lot of resources, but let's be honest, those resources often seem to aggregate in certain areas at the expense of others.  In terms of servicing those neighborhoods and making decisions, I think it's easier if those 'hoods are unified as part of one city or the other. 

 

If nothing else, the Superior Triangle area of East Cleveland (which is in terrible shape and offers no redeeming value to any city) should be unified with the Cleveland Heights portion so that CH can develop some larger vision for that currently blighted neighborhood.

@inlovewithCLE, Id have to hear more from Mov2Ohio. And still, I believe people are drastically overestimating the development potential of East Cleveland. I also believe that people are giving Cleveland far too much credit, as I disagree that Cleveland taking over East Cleveland makes it better, as statistically, its already better than a lot of Cleveland's neighborhoods. We constantly talk about how Cleveland police are spread too thin, why make things even worse?

 

Here are the views of an East Cleveland resident who disagrees that services would improve.

 

"Morris indicated that a merger would enable East Cleveland to benefit from gaining Cleveland's first responders. Well, no disrespect to Cleveland's bravest, but East Cleveland firefighters, police and medical emergency responders have some of the fastest respond times in the region. And while compassion is not as measurable as response time, our first responders lead the pack for that quality as well."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/11/east_cleveland_more_than_warm.html

 

 

Edit: Here is another comment from different story which I doubt is made up.

 

"About 10 years ago, while working in a large building that was 1/2 in CLE and1/2 in EC, we called 911 for a fire. While CLE called us back to try to determine which section of the building was on fire so they could determine their responsibility here, EC FD just showed up! While we were still on the phone with CLE Emergency Services trying to describe the exact location of the room with the fire! AFTER the emergency had been contained, THEN EC FD started measuring and what not to determine location, but not until after we were all safe and the building was made safe and secure. I will never forget that. ~~ My daughter is a visiting nurse working night shift. Those nurses will tell you in a heartbeat that EC Police and ER services far outshine CLE. When my daughter is dispatched to a home visit in EC in the middle of the night, she phones EC Police via non emergency number and is usually met and escorted. NEVER happens in CLE, they simply dont have the man power."

 

Your argument loses credibility when you cherry pick. In the exact same article you quoted to discredit, the same East Cleveland resident said "I say a merger, should voters approve it, would benefit both cities, and East Cleveland would bring much more to the table than "warm bodies" -- the term Morris used in reference to East Cleveland residents -- that could boost Cleveland's population count."

 

Her entire argument in that commentary is supporting my own point. Her argument was that East Cleveland wouldn't just be a drag on Cleveland's resources like people are saying. She's saying that Cleveland would win out of the deal too. Stop cherry picking. To say that she disagrees that services would improve is dishonest.

I dont care about her opinion, thats not what I was trying to show. I was showing that East Cleveland might be better off with its current services then what Cleveland could provide(opposite of what you and others have been saying about 4 patrol cars). If anything, Cleveland wont provide some major improvement in police, fire, etc, if her statement that East Cleveland has some of the best response times is true.  I don't see how my argument loses any credibility from that. Even people on here have complained about the Cleveland Police Department.

 

I dont see how Cleveland benefits by annexing a very poor, troubled area. That argument is about getting back over 400,000 which is pointless since we will no longer be there by next census, even sooner if you count estimates. Its also a very lame attempt at population growth.

 

And I also dont think East Cleveland will benefit from joining Cleveland as much as other people like to believe.

 

I dont care about her opinion, thats not what I was trying to show. I was showing that East Cleveland might be better off with its current services then what Cleveland could provide(opposite of what you and others have been saying about 4 patrol cars). If anything, Cleveland wont provide some major improvement in police, fire, etc, if her statement that East Cleveland has some of the best response times is true.  I don't see how my argument loses any credibility from that. Even people on here have complained about the Cleveland Police Department.

 

I dont see how Cleveland benefits by annexing a very poor, troubled area. That argument is about getting back over 400,000 which is pointless since we will no longer be there by next census, even sooner if you count estimates. Its also a very lame attempt at population growth.

 

And I also dont think East Cleveland will benefit from joining Cleveland as much as other people like to believe.

 

You don't care about your opinion, but you used the part of her opinion that you agreed with to try to validate your own point.  :roll:

 

I dont care about her opinion, thats not what I was trying to show. I was showing that East Cleveland might be better off with its current services then what Cleveland could provide(opposite of what you and others have been saying about 4 patrol cars). If anything, Cleveland wont provide some major improvement in police, fire, etc, if her statement that East Cleveland has some of the best response times is true.  I don't see how my argument loses any credibility from that. Even people on here have complained about the Cleveland Police Department.

 

I dont see how Cleveland benefits by annexing a very poor, troubled area. That argument is about getting back over 400,000 which is pointless since we will no longer be there by next census, even sooner if you count estimates. Its also a very lame attempt at population growth.

 

And I also dont think East Cleveland will benefit from joining Cleveland as much as other people like to believe.

 

You don't care about your opinion, but you used the part of her opinion that you agreed with to try to validate your own point.  :roll:

 

I was using the fact that she stated... "East Cleveland firefighters, police and medical emergency responders have some of the fastest respond times in the region" :roll:

 

I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't just make that up.

 

 

I dont care about her opinion, thats not what I was trying to show. I was showing that East Cleveland might be better off with its current services then what Cleveland could provide(opposite of what you and others have been saying about 4 patrol cars). If anything, Cleveland wont provide some major improvement in police, fire, etc, if her statement that East Cleveland has some of the best response times is true.  I don't see how my argument loses any credibility from that. Even people on here have complained about the Cleveland Police Department.

 

I dont see how Cleveland benefits by annexing a very poor, troubled area. That argument is about getting back over 400,000 which is pointless since we will no longer be there by next census, even sooner if you count estimates. Its also a very lame attempt at population growth.

 

And I also dont think East Cleveland will benefit from joining Cleveland as much as other people like to believe.

 

You don't care about your opinion, but you used the part of her opinion that you agreed with to try to validate your own point.  :roll:

 

I was using the fact that she stated... "East Cleveland firefighters, police and medical emergency responders have some of the fastest respond times in the region" :roll:

 

I was giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't just make that up.

You said:

"Here are the views of an East Cleveland resident who disagrees that services would improve." and then continued on to quote the opinion of someone whose opinion you don't care about. So why quote her at all? You quoted her opinion to validate your own point, and then when I further highlight her opinion in its full context, then you dismiss it by saying "I don't care about her opinion" even though you JUST used her opinion to try to validate your own opinion. I'm a communications guy, I know what you're doing.

And furthermore, you said that you were quoting from someone who disagrees that services would improve and thats not what she said at all. That was dishonest and you know it

Sorry if I worded my lead in to the quote wrong but it was purely about the part about the fastest response times. You are looking way to far into it. I originally posted it without the rest of the quote but didn't want to post that as 100% fact so I decided to give the entire portion of the quote.

 

If true, which I believe her that it is, what is your response to that, since the whole time you and others have said East Cleveland would benefit since their safety services are terrible?

^As long as I don't get mocked for posting stats then sure...

 

 

Thanks. So the only Cleveland neighborhood with more vacant housing is St. Clair-Superior. Now THAT's a number that makes sense. And like Hts121 said, if we could use only the area of East Cleveland that's "down the hill" I'll bet that it would fall way short of all Cleveland neighborhoods. But when Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway and other Cleveland neighborhoods rank poorly in comparison to East Cleveland says there's something wrong with the statistics -- or that Forest Hill is tilting East Cleveland's numbers more in its favor.

 

So is there a way of comparing the number of active businesses per square mile and number of jobs per square mile? I think those stats would be most useful. If your city is productive, it will show up in these stats.

 

But those stats do show that if East Cleveland does merge with Cleveland, that it must include ALL of East Cleveland. Cleveland Heights should not be allowed to pick off Forest Hill else there will be no benefit for Cleveland.

 

What councilperson would inherit EC?  Or would it be divided up amongst the surrounding wards?  I'd be more inclined to support this if it didn't include another political subdivision, who's residents might surely continue to reelect a do-nothing councilperson. 

 

A new council ward would have to be created. The number of wards in Cleveland are based on population. Annexing East Cleveland would cause Cleveland's population to rise sufficiently that a new ward would have to be added and likely a new CDC -- which might be afforded by new CDBG grants that should come from Cleveland's population going back above the 400,000 mark again.

For you urban policy guys, quick question (and pretend we're not talking about Cleveland/East Cleveland specifically, but more in general): is it best for planning and other purposes for otherwise connected neighborhoods to be split between two separate legal jurisdictions?

Sorry if I worded my lead in to the quote wrong but it was purely about the part about the fastest response times. You are looking way to far into it. I originally posted it without the rest of the quote but didn't want to post that as 100% fact so I decided to give the entire portion of the quote.

 

If true, which I believe her that it is, what is your response to that, since the whole time you and others have said East Cleveland would benefit since their safety services are terrible?

 

She was not saying that services would not improve in a merger. In fact, she clearly said that a merger would be a win-win for both cities. Her only point of consternation was the idea that East Cleveland would only be providing Cleveland with warm bodies in a merger. She was saying that CLE would get more than that in a merger with EC, which is why quoting her as a way to be against a merger when the entire point of her commentary was to highlight the positives that CLE would get IN a merger with EC (a merger that she herself supports) is dishonest

@HTS, The upper area has 64% percent of the households earning under $30,000. The city ranges from around 42% to 87% with the upper area representing the average. Its average household income is just under $18,000. That is the second lowest tract in the city behind the area between Forest Hill Blvd and Lee Blvd along Euclid. Oddly the median home value is about double the rest of the city. I don't have any crime statistics unfortunately but I would assume its not as bad as downhill. Could the upper area be mostly older citizens, long time retired homeowners who no longer work making them fit those categories(I could look but am being lazy. What have you observed?)

 

I think we have different definitions of "up the hill"  To me, it does not mean everything south of Euclid.  The geographical boundary (the large incline) occurs at most points of the city south of Terrace (not including the condo buildings and towers which line the south side of Terrace, such as Terrace Tower or whatever it is called now).  The exception to this rule would be the area of the City west of Superior and south of Euclid.  I would venture to guess that the portion north of Terrace is more stable than the area to the south.

 

The area around Nela Park is probably on par with the rest of the City income wise, but it greatly benefits from the CH police satellite stations on Noble, especially the one right on the border.  The areas which border CH also benefit from the mutual aid contract, which I believe extends the CH patrol to include the hill. 

 

The nicest parts of EC is Forest Hills of course and the area near Caledonia park along N. Taylor 

 

This is the only area I used. Would this area be correct?

 

 

 

No, because it would include large residential buildings on he south side of Terrace but still down the hill.  There are probably as many units in those buildings as there are residents in the entire FH neighborhood up the hill.  That would impact the numbers.  But, also, yes there are a lot of older residents in the FH neighborhood.  I'm not sure how that impacts the numbers.  Regardless, judging neighborhoods on paper can be very misleading..... and I would bet that applies double in EC

FWIW, I can believe the resident's claim about emergency response times, especially considering the very small geographic size of the City and the mutual aid contracts with Cleveland and CH.  I don't know if that stat will hold up next time it is analyzed given that the Sheriff patrol was cut off and EC's own daily staffing was reduced and the closing of Huron's ER.  But I have never really heard any issues with response times in the City.  The problem is moreso that the police are so busy responding to emergencies that they don't have any time to be proactive..... no time to make their presence felt and engage in any form of order-maintenance policing.  If you want to walk down the street with an open container, go for it.  No one is going to stop you.  If you are underage and want some alcohol, head on down to EC and you can easily find a place willing to sell to you.  There is also no time for welfare checks, crime stings, warrant executions, etc.

FWIW, I can believe the resident's claim about emergency response times, especially considering the very small geographic size of the City and the mutual aid contracts with Cleveland and CH.  I don't know if that stat will hold up next time it is analyzed given that the Sheriff patrol was cut off and EC's own daily staffing was reduced and the closing of Huron's ER.  But I have never really heard any issues with response times in the City.  The problem is moreso that the police are so busy responding to emergencies that they don't have any time to be proactive..... no time to make their presence felt and engage in any form of order-maintenance policing.  If you want to walk down the street with an open container, go for it.  No one is going to stop you.  If you are underage and want some alcohol, head on down to EC and you can easily find a place willing to sell to you.  There is also no time for welfare checks, crime stings, warrant executions, etc.

 

Was the Sheriff  patrol cut off at the County's behest or the city's?

County.  The patrol had been cut in half about 5 years ago and then completely withdrawn in 2010.  I have no idea why the City would cut it off.  It's administration tried to lobby to keep it going.

County.  The patrol had been cut in half about 5 years ago and then completely withdrawn in 2010.  I have no idea why the City would cut it off.  It's administration tried to lobby to keep it going.

 

Bob Reid was sheriff then.  He probably wasn't getting the support he wanted from the city.  Or, they otherwise peed him off, possibly by not pulling their weight or not expecting their officers to. 

No.  It was much more simple than that.  The patrol was always supposed to be tempporary and when it came down to keeping the EC patrol or fully staffing the Justice Center, EC got the axe.  The County, just like all levels of government, was forced to make some tough decisions during the massive drop off in revenue following the 2008 financial crisis

No.  It was much more simple than that.  The patrol was always supposed to be tempporary and when it came down to keeping the EC patrol or fully staffing the Justice Center, EC got the axe.  The County, just like all levels of government, was forced to make some tough decisions during the massive drop off in revenue following the 2008 financial crisis

 

True enough.  But Reid was big on having the Sheriff's department boost local police forces when needed.  There was probably a little more to this, though your reason was the main one and the justification.

Merging East Cleveland with Cleveland could help both cities: editorial

 

Former Cleveland City Council President George Forbes was right to call on East Cleveland to merge with Cleveland and to work so hard behind the scenes trying to make it happen.

 

It's great that both mayors seem agreeable, too, but their assent isn’t enough.

 

Voters will have to weigh in at some point -- so officials in both cities need to pick up the ball and run with it. Residents need to get a clear picture of what a merger will mean and understand the benefits it can deliver to both cities.

 

To best accomplish those goals, both Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson and East Cleveland Mayor Gary Norton need to make that conversation much wider. This isn’t about picking on financially-distressed East Cleveland. Other struggling cities in Cuyahoga County – Linndale comes to mind – should consider becoming part of the far more robust city of Cleveland. But beyond that, shared services and administrative mergers are the future for fragmented Cuyahoga County and its strapped taxpayers.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/12/merging_east_cleveland_with_cl.html#incart_river_default

For you urban policy guys, quick question (and pretend we're not talking about Cleveland/East Cleveland specifically, but more in general): is it best for planning and other purposes for otherwise connected neighborhoods to be split between two separate legal jurisdictions?

 

Anyone care to answer this?

Can someone better explains the 400K threshold regarding federal funding?

Can someone better explains the 400K threshold regarding federal funding?

 

I keep hearing that being thrown around too but no one ever gives any further explanation. Even so I would guess even with their population, Cleveland would still be below 400,000 next census.

It has something to do with block grants that require a minimum number of residents.  However I had always heard that the cutoffs were 500,000 and 50,000.

 

But I agree with ClevelandOhio in that this will only be temporary.  Cleveland needs to find a more reliable way of growing its population. 

Even though the bleeding has slowed, I wouldn't be surprised to see Cleveland's population around 375,000 by the next census even with the merger.  With miniscule job gains, a frozen regional economy economy, and a lack of focus on immigration (some of the real job creators), a merger with EC is definitely a temporary "fix" which won't last into the next census.

Has the bleeding slowed?

I think what happens in East Cleveland, as with any other patch of Greater Cleveland, should be what is determined to be best for the people who live in East Cleveland. There are other options to consider besides merging the city with either of its bordering municipalities or splitting it up between them. One would be contracting with one of the neighboring municipalities to provide services that it has trouble providing on its own or cooperating on problems that cross the artificial borders between the municipalities. An example is the joint revitalization effort now underway in North Coventry, a beleaguered neighborhood of two-family homes and apartment buildings that is partly in EC and partly in CH. Also, it's not a simple consideration to determine which municipal entity, Cleveland or Cleveland Heights, is the stronger. Cleveland certainly has many more resources in terms of commercial property value, for example, but day-to-day services are provided at a higher level in Cleveland Heights.

 

While I think it's dysfunctional that Cuyahoga County is divided into 59 municipalities, I doubt we are on the verge of a mass merger of any kind, unless it were to be imposed by the state. The importance of a healthy City of Cleveland cannot be understated, but I can also understand why any other municipality would be hesitant to become a part of it at this point in time. While I love the idea of Cleveland Heights legally being a part of Cleveland, I hate to think of how low a priority my troubled neighborhood on the north side of Cleveland Heights would be if it were part of Cleveland. At the same time, as someone who works in Cleveland, I think it's fair that I pay taxes to both cities. The city income tax is one reason Cleveland is not in the fiscally poor condition of many similar cities in other states.

 

I think the best hope for a step toward metropolitan government in our region is with our new charter county government, which has the ability to offer services to municipalities that the municipalities, including Cleveland, have difficulty providing on their own.

 

While I think it's dysfunctional that Cuyahoga County is divided into 59 municipalities, I doubt we are on the verge of a mass merger of any kind, unless it were to be imposed by the state. The importance of a healthy City of Cleveland cannot be understated, but I can also understand why any other municipality would be hesitant to become a part of it at this point in time. While I love the idea of Cleveland Heights legally being a part of Cleveland, I hate to think of how low a priority my troubled neighborhood on the north side of Cleveland Heights would be if it were part of Cleveland.

 

The second part is a very good point and a big part of why a lot of suburbanites resist any consolidation.

 

As for forced merger:  this is Ohio.  The odds of the state imposing such a thing are slim, none, and keep going.  About 70% of the population of Cuyahoga County lives in the suburbs and a big chunk of them are "in play" come election time.  The GOP wouldn't do it because it's against their principles, the Dems because they'd lose their majority.

If an EC merger into Cleveland gets so much resistance, we might as well delete this thread.

If an EC merger into Cleveland gets so much resistance, we might as well delete this thread.

 

Regionalism takes many different forms. Mergers are only one form of regionalism. Mutual aid among safety forces is a form of regionalism. And just because we have disagreements here on mergers, doesn't mean something will get done. Leaders do what what's right, not what the polls say. Besides, if some sizable grants are dangled at Cleveland to accept the merger, Cleveland will take it.

Id be fine taking EC if we got Lakewood in return! Lakewood would never go for it though since they would see a massive decline in services.

If an EC merger into Cleveland gets so much resistance, we might as well delete this thread.

 

Regionalism takes many different forms. Mergers are only one form of regionalism. Mutual aid among safety forces is a form of regionalism. And just because we have disagreements here on mergers, doesn't mean something will get done. Leaders do what what's right, not what the polls say. Besides, if some sizable grants are dangled at Cleveland to accept the merger, Cleveland will take it.

 

Exactly.  Additionally, there is a huge difference between similar communities sharing resources (or even merging) than doing so with Cleveland, or for that matter East Cleveland .  There has to be something in it for both sides.  Otherwise, it’s charity.

It's not charity.  It's foresight..... something this region has been sorely lacking for far too long.

 

We already have plenty of mutual aid among safety forces.  It would be rare for neighboring communities to not have such contracts..... although in EC's case, I would have trouble saying that the aid is really "mutual."  We have joint school districts, we have joint sewer districts, we have regional municipal courts, jails, dispatch centers, etc.  The next step really would be merging cities, on a small scale when it makes sense even if large scale regionalism which you see in Indy, Louisville, etc. never comes to fruition.

 

Leaders may not do what the polls say, but good luck getting a petition for merger approved without the support of the electorate of both existing cities.  The process for merging two cities is a bit different than annexation of a township.  The legislative authorities can get the ball rolling short of a petition, but they still are required to submit the question to the voters...... absent some different process provided by charter in both cities which I doubt both Cleveland and EC have.

It's not charity.  It's foresight..... [and] in EC's case, I would have trouble saying that the aid is really "mutual." 

 

Spot on.

 

:clap:

This region is built on charity.  Many Cuyahoga County residents are forced to subsidize prosperity in their city of employment while their own city of residence crumbles due budget troubles.

 

And FYI, we don't really have "joint" school districts because school districts are independent of municipalities.  We have school districts that cover certain geographic areas with names that reflect, but do not mirror, the portions of the cities they serve.

It doesn't seem like this would be a difficult thing to pass as far as voters are concerned in East Cleveland.  A focused campaign if it is seen as a generally positive for the community should be able to deliver the votes.  The tricky part could be Cleveland voters wanting to pass it. 

  It would make Cuyahoga County more efficient with one less "city" to worry about with their duplicative government offices and titles.  It would erase the name E. Cleveland perhaps?    I do not doubt that it is nearly impossible to develop anything in E. Cleveland since the name doesn't inspire trust especially with the bankruptcy of Detroit on people's minds.  Any push into E. Cleveland from UC would be an obvious huge win for the region.  I don't think that will happen until it is considered Cleveland proper.

^ The East Cleveland name would most likely remain as a neighborhood name.

Just read on the Ohio City crime watch page that it took 2 hours for the police to show up after a resident called about a home break in. Another commenter shared a similar situation which took 4 hours. I don't see how East Cleveland would benefit from Cleveland's services. I also do see how Cleveland would benefit by taking on another troubled area when they cant even get police to their current residents.

Cleveland police have a tiered system when responding to crime. If you think 4 hours is long, you should try 8 or more in some of the east side neighborhoods. Residents along Kinsman told us of police responding literally to break-ins the next day. When the crime already occured and there is no eminent danger to the public, they will respond to the more serious crimes before coming out to respond to break-ins.

Cleveland police have a tiered system when responding to crime. If you think 4 hours is long, you should try 8 or more in some of the east side neighborhoods. Residents along Kinsman told us of police responding literally to break-ins the next day. When the crime already occured and there is no eminent danger to the public, they will respond to the more serious crimes before coming out to respond to break-ins.

 

8 hours! Wow!

 

I understand the reasoning I guess, but that is terrible for residents. How are we going to attract residents to the city(where break ins happen more often), when police response is so terrible. Imagine coming home to find out your house had been broken into and calling the cops and them not showing up till the next day. It makes a terrible situation even worse! Compare that to living in a suburb where the cops would show up minutes later. Would make falling asleep and finding comfort a little easier.

 

Ps, I'm not blaming the cops.

 

Ps, I'm not blaming the cops.

 

They aren't blameless. Cleveland cops are notoriously lazy. But I've said that before including in the safety thread where someone can debate me on that point, if you like.

Just read on the Ohio City crime watch page that it took 2 hours for the police to show up after a resident called about a home break in. Another commenter shared a similar situation which took 4 hours. I don't see how East Cleveland would benefit from Cleveland's services. I also do see how Cleveland would benefit by taking on another troubled area when they cant even get police to their current residents.

 

Yeah this is how I feel about it as well.  I would have thought it would have been a good idea long ago, but a lot has changed, and Cleveland does seem to have a hard time of taking care of things within its own limits (which has seen the crime and dangers spread significantly the past few years).  I cant imagine Cleveland being bogged down b a city that is in even worse shape.  Will likely result in being number one on several lists that it doesn't want to be on.   

 

^^I take serious issue with that statement.  Desensitized, perhaps.  Lazy, definitely not..... save for the inevitable bad apples in a bunch of well over 1000

Okay, assuming these long wait times for police response to non-violent (yet still serious) crimes are true, these are anecdotes and I can't believe that things are really that much better in East Cleveland.

^^I take serious issue with that statement.  Desensitized, perhaps.  Lazy, definitely not..... save for the inevitable bad apples in a bunch of well over 1000

 

^This.

 

A good example would be the 911 operator in the Amanda Berry case that caught all the flack for being insensitive.

 

Does anyone have any idea how many false alarms have been maliciously called in about her over the years?  It's at least in the three figures.

^^I take serious issue with that statement.  Desensitized, perhaps.  Lazy, definitely not..... save for the inevitable bad apples in a bunch of well over 1000

 

Calm down. Maybe five years ago, I interviewed a former president of the Cleveland Police Patrolman's Association who described his members as some of the laziest people he's ever been around and have a terrible work ethic. He told me several stories to back up his allegation, including police refusing to respond to a call because they were on a meal break, or not filling out basic paperwork or not responding to crimes of likely repetition (burglaries, car break-ins, etc) that were in progress that would have saved them so much work later on if they had responded in the moment.

 

I was also friends with a suburban police chief whose brother worked for Cleveland police and they often contrasted the stark differences in "corporate culture" between the two departments. In short, they noted that in the suburbs police aggressively hustled and worked their asses off. When a call came in, you'd better get out of the officer's way or he'll run you over. Meanwhile in the city, police lumbered and did the minimum and had cumbersome work procedures that required extra work to write and submit reports and other paperwork. And when a call came to the patrolman, you'd be able to finish your sentence while talking to them. They weren't in any hurry to get there.

 

Sorry, if you find reality insensitive, but if you and the CPD don't like it, then they should change their M.O.

^Calm down?  C'mon man.  Nobody is getting excited.... at least not on this side of the keyboard.

 

That's your perception.  I have a different one, based on much more than conversations/interviews with former disgruntled CPPA presidents.  Loomis?  It depends on what day you caught him on.  His job (as any CPPA president) is very difficult since they have the pleasure of dealing on a daily basis with those officers who are the bad apples.... the ones who get disciplined, the ones who don't follow SOPs/SOGs, the 10% who cost the union 90% of its defense funds.  Trying to compare surburban police officers and city cops is like trying to compare the dedication and performance of a teacher at Orange HS with one at East Tech.  Different world... different realities.

^That's your perception.  I have a different one, based on much more than conversations/interviews with former disgruntled CPPA presidents.  Loomis?  It depends on what day you caught him on.  His job (as any CPPA president) is very difficult since they have the pleasure of dealing on a daily basis with those officers who are the bad apples.... the ones who get disciplined.  Trying to compare surburban police officers and city cops is like trying to compare the dedication and performance of a teacher at Orange HS with one at East Tech.  Different world... different realities.

 

OK, it's not a perception. Its my reporting from people who know more about the inner-workings of the department than you, me and just about anyone else on this board. Feel free to continue arguing with the experts. It does nothing but erode your credibility.

Calm down ;)  I have quite a bit of expertise in this field.  I work primarily with safety forces.... from all over the metro.  You may not be an engineer, but I bet you know a thing or two about trains.  Now let's lay off the credibility attacks.  It's unbecoming.

Calm down ;)  I have quite a bit of expertise in this field.  I work primarily with safety forces.... from all over the metro.  You may not be an engineer, but I bet you know a thing or two about trains.  Now let's lay off the credibility attacks.  It's unbecoming.

 

If you don't attack my credibility as a reporter of 20 years, I won't attack yours. Deal?

I didn't attack your credibility.  I simply offered my own perspective, based on my own experiences and knowledge.  That is allowed, right?  The issue of credibility was not even raised until you alleged mine was eroding.