1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Completion date? I’m not sure. I would guess within a few weeks. Looks like all that’s left is to pour the concrete deck and approach tie ins. The ramps to each side are already finished. The access point is just across the Willow Street bridge.

Thank you!!

I forgot how much I disliked the rock hall design and how hack design has to pay 'homage' to the city's industrial past and the fact that there is no continuity between the original design and new build pays 'homage' to the nonconformist nature of rock and roll.

9 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Thanks for sharing that tweet, @Ineffable_Matt

 

  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wondered why there’s no significant venue for concerts and events next to the Rock Hall. This might be drifting slightly off topic, but the Rock Hall should feature more than “small”  events in their atrium or on the plaza in front of the building. I’ve always thought it should do more to shatter the concept of the Rock Hall as a museum in the traditional sense. 
 

The other thought - the idea that it takes an “outside” event and perspective to show Clevelanders how cool their lakefront could be. Geez. 

 

When I first moved to Ohio in 1991 there were always thousands of people making their way down the cliffs to the lakefront every weekend. North Coast Harbor had a stage there on the water with bands hosted by WMMS. It was always pretty crazy. And the Flats were also crazy. The warehouse district had cool club scene too. Then something happened...I'm not sure why, but downtown suddenly got boring, the Flats were uncool, North Coast Harbor died and the crowds stopped coming. Yes, we still have some events and we get glimpses, but things just haven't been the same since.   

10 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

When I first moved to Ohio in 1991 there were always thousands of people making their way down the cliffs to the lakefront every weekend. North Coast Harbor had a stage there on the water with bands hosted by WMMS. It was always pretty crazy. And the Flats were also crazy. The warehouse district had cool club scene too. Then something happened...I'm not sure why, but downtown suddenly got boring, the Flats were uncool, North Coast Harbor died and the crowds stopped coming. Yes, we still have some events and we get glimpses, but things just haven't been the same since.   

I disagree. Downtown Cleveland Business district was a ghost town. Hundreds of prostitutes up and down Prospect and Euclid avenues.

The warehouse district was pretty much the same as it is now. The new flats is developing into something much better than the old flats. And instead of music at North Coast Harbor, we now have Thursday party in the park at Edgewater. BtW Edgewater was still a dirty mess in 1991. Ps- Cleveland today is the best it’s been in my 58 yrs here.

Jeez- The whole East 4th St/ Lower Prospect and Euclid/ Gateway area, Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit-Shoreway all took off in that time period.  The party's not where you remember it, old man!  But that doesn't mean that it isn't still happening!

 

And pining for WMMS?  Aren't they playing the latest Hoobastank and Staind tracks right now?

 "The new flats is developing into something much better than the old flats. "

It depends on what you find fun.  Growing up with the "old" flats...it was like Mardi Gras North.  No., it wasn't pristine and full of new buildings, but it was a blue collar good time (until the White administration let it get out of hand).  Riverfest...it was quite a sight!

 

"And pining for WMMS?  Aren't they playing the latest Hoobastank and Staind tracks right now?"

I wouldn't call it pining, maybe just remembering...   WMMS was  THE rock station at one time.  In the before times, music was actually played by a DJ, and they even took requests.  You didn't hear the "popular" songs looped over and over all day.  I am older, and it may sound old...but I actually like music that can be played...on instruments...and doesn't require a studio and computer to recreate the music.

Sorry...I went off topic

 

47 minutes ago, X said:

Jeez- The whole East 4th St/ Lower Prospect and Euclid/ Gateway area, Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit-Shoreway all took off in that time period.  The party's not where you remember it, old man!  But that doesn't mean that it isn't still happening!

 

And pining for WMMS?  Aren't they playing the latest Hoobastank and Staind tracks right now?

 

I'm speaking from more of a lakefront standpoint. Of course development shifted - and got much better! elsewhere as the adjacent neighborhoods got stronger and residential got going.

 

But again, I'm talking about people coming into the lakefront/waterfront areas, which I took liberties including warehouse district. 

 

Lol @ Hoobastank

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

 "The new flats is developing into something much better than the old flats. "

It depends on what you find fun.  Growing up with the "old" flats...it was like Mardi Gras North.  No., it wasn't pristine and full of new buildings, but it was a blue collar good time (until the White administration let it get out of hand).  Riverfest...it was quite a sight!

 

"And pining for WMMS?  Aren't they playing the latest Hoobastank and Staind tracks right now?"

I wouldn't call it pining, maybe just remembering...   WMMS was  THE rock station at one time.  In the before times, music was actually played by a DJ, and they even took requests.  You didn't hear the "popular" songs looped over and over all day.  I am older, and it may sound old...but I actually like music that can be played...on instruments...and doesn't require a studio and computer to recreate the music.

Sorry...I went off topic

 

 

 

october, 1998.

 

cher's hit song believe introduced autotune.

 

and it has been all downhill since then.

 

https://www.vulture.com/2018/12/great-moments-in-auto-tune-history.html

 

11 hours ago, surfohio said:

thousands of people making their way down the cliffs to the lakefront

 

I do remember another popular way (families and all) to get to lakefront events was to park in one of those cheap lots on the east bank and walk the railroad tracks in. Could you imagine that today, haha

1 hour ago, viscomi said:

 

 

I do remember another popular way (families and all) to get to lakefront events was to park in one of those cheap lots on the east bank and walk the railroad tracks in. Could you imagine that today, haha

Yep haha. I remember. There were a lot of places in the Flats that weren’t really parking lots, but became parking lots...it was very Mad Max. But at the same time the Flats East Bank also had a tourism office. 

There was a time in the late 80's and early to mid 90's when the Flats was as happening a place as anywhere between New York and Chicago. If you weren't there it's almost impossible to comprehend. Bumper to bumper traffic. Ten's of thousands of people in the club's and walking the streets. It was amazing but oh so shortlived. Sort of like one of those 19th century western boom towns. Here today and gone tomorrow. 

 

Actually the new Flats is nothing like the old Flats. The old one was organic and real. The new one is a sanitized corporate environment. It's like comparing apples and oranges. 

 

Of course there are things l like about the new Flats. The main Flats East Bank building is pretty nice. Especially the big neon sign. I love the boardwalk and the most recent construction is really cool. But taken as a whole the old Flats was so much more appealing, to me at least, than the new Flats. 

19 minutes ago, cadmen said:

There was a time in the late 80's and early to mid 90's when the Flats was as happening a place as anywhere between New York and Chicago. If you weren't there it's almost impossible to comprehend. Bumper to bumper traffic. Ten's of thousands of people in the club's and walking the streets. It was amazing but oh so shortlived. Sort of like one of those 19th century western boom towns. Here today and gone tomorrow. 

 

Actually the new Flats is nothing like the old Flats. The old one was organic and real. The new one is a sanitized corporate environment. It's like comparing apples and oranges. 

 

Of course there are things l like about the new Flats. The main Flats East Bank building is pretty nice. Especially the big neon sign. I love the boardwalk and the most recent construction is really cool. But taken as a whole the old Flats was so much more appealing, to me at least, than the new Flats. 

Even as a younger person, I often lament how "authentic" feeling places get turned into just another piece of corporate monotony. But at the same time, that's sort of just the natural progression of things. It's hard to keep a place's cool gritty feeling, because eventually, it will get so popular that fancier development comes in and changes it. It's like how people complain about how much High Street in Columbus has changed - it sucks that the original "authenticity" and "culture" is gone, but again, it's pretty impossible to prevent places like High Streets or the Flats from changing. You can't keep a place's gritty authenticity when real estate investors start noticing how popular of a neighborhood it is to hang out in. 

A friend of mine lives in the FEB apartments. He partied hard in the old Flats back in the day. He continually complains that the new Flats is nowhere near as good and his rent is way too much, but he wouldn't live anywhere else(!)

3 hours ago, cadmen said:

There was a time in the late 80's and early to mid 90's when the Flats was as happening a place as anywhere between New York and Chicago. If you weren't there it's almost impossible to comprehend. Bumper to bumper traffic. Ten's of thousands of people in the club's and walking the streets. It was amazing but oh so shortlived. Sort of like one of those 19th century western boom towns. Here today and gone tomorrow. 

 

Actually the new Flats is nothing like the old Flats. The old one was organic and real. The new one is a sanitized corporate environment. It's like comparing apples and oranges. 

 

Of course there are things l like about the new Flats. The main Flats East Bank building is pretty nice. Especially the big neon sign. I love the boardwalk and the most recent construction is really cool. But taken as a whole the old Flats was so much more appealing, to me at least, than the new Flats. 

 

Agree. But prepare for the downvotes hahahaha.

 

But seriously people, I love CLE and realize things do change, not just there but everywhere. And the Flats back then had a nationally famous hiphop dance club called Noisemakers. My friends from NYC would come visit to go there. Then the warehouse district had Spy Bar and its own unique scene with and a few other highly regarded underground spots. We just don't have anything like that now for whatever reason. 

 

This is not a knock on Cleveland, it's just different. Many many aspects of the city are far better, as watertiger mentioned Edgewater Park was horrible for so long. And WMMS did in fact turn into an awful radio station. All part of history, and a very very colorful history at that. 

^ HA...I used to work door/security at Noisemakers!  Blast from the past.

1 hour ago, cfdwarrior said:

^ HA...I used to work door/security at Noisemakers!  Blast from the past.

 

Oh wow, that was a wild spot for sure. For a brief time that strip of Old River Road was seriously the place to be. 

On another note- just wanted to say that the skyline looked great on the national draft telecast despite the bad weather. 

The Hilton and its lighting makes a really big  impact from that lakefront perspective. The Beacon even showed up in some shots. 200 Public is at its best from that angle too. I was fantasizing about the SW HQ Tower being there soon, too. 

 

it’s great to see a lot of activity down on the lakefront and I hope I get  to see more than the stadium, science museum and rock hall as attractions there in my lifetime.  Move the stadium and build something great down  there.  We shouldn’t have to wait for a draft or a convention to see a lot of energy along the lakefront. 

4 hours ago, CleveFan said:

 Move the stadium and build something great down  there.  We shouldn’t have to wait for a draft or a convention to see a lot of energy along the lakefront. 

We shall see if the rumors of Jimmy Haslem wanting to develop something on the draft theater site come true.... 

6 hours ago, CleveFan said:

On another note- just wanted to say that the skyline looked great on the national draft telecast despite the bad weather. 

The Hilton and its lighting makes a really big  impact from that lakefront perspective. The Beacon even showed up in some shots. 200 Public is at its best from that angle too. I was fantasizing about the SW HQ Tower being there soon, too. 

 

it’s great to see a lot of activity down on the lakefront and I hope I get  to see more than the stadium, science museum and rock hall as attractions there in my lifetime.  Move the stadium and build something great down  there.  We shouldn’t have to wait for a draft or a convention to see a lot of energy along the lakefront. 

 

And back to the future/present! Agree the city did look great last night. When was the last time an international event went down on our lakefront? It's intriguing to wonder what the Haslam's vision and role will be in the near future.

 

As with Burke, I don't think we necessarily need to move the stadium. Let's work with what we have in an attainable time frame. IThe ball appears to be rolling with changes that should have a dramatic and fairly immediate impact:

 

First the programming at the Rock Hall needs to expand. By all accounts that appears to be happening with the outdoor venue. But there needs to be more events, especially outside and later at night. Provide ample reason to be down there after 4pm. Same goes with Voinovich Park and the Science Center...we just need more going on. 

 

Second there needs to be a better pedestrian flow. Again, that bridge everyone seems to hate should really help out a lot in that regard. The layout between buildings has always been disjointed and not well-designed from an urban context. Fortunately that's fixable. Above my pay grade for sure, but lets connect those attractions.  

 

Third there needs to be more public facilities. I'm thinking especially wrt public restrooms that are safe and well maintained. Can we provide safe and clean public bathrooms in this country? The jury is out on that subject but I'm hopeful. 

 

Finally we need a few more restaurants or retail spaces. Nothing near the level of the Flats or anything, but just a few more stakeholders to boost the livelihood and to help connect these dots. We have a Mexican restaurant, and a new cafe coming...that's good but just not enough. These could be integrated with the boat terminal or some well placed grouping toward Voinovich Park. Maybe seasonal. But a little investment in infrastructure would go a long way.  

 

Anyhow it feels like there's momentum and this stuff is just fun to talk about when ideas and long-delayed plans are finally getting traction. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, surfohio said:

 

And back to the future/present! Agree the city did look great last night. When was the last time an international event went down on our lakefront?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was 2007 when the last Grand Prix of Cleveland took place, that event NEEDS to come back in some form because that style of racing is as popular as ever. Even F1 is making a strong push into North America at the moment. If Cleveland could get an IndyCar or IMSA race it would be huge in my opinion. 

One issue with lakefront development I would like to see revisited by local leadership is the citing of the Coast Guard and Army Corps offices on the east side of E. 9th Street.  Being across the street from the Rock Hall would be prime land for restaurants/hospitality/apartments.  I know the feds don't want to move, but I wish there was some organized to get Ohio's Congressional delegation to make them move somewhere else on the lakefront.  It's prime land currently fenced off for security purposes.  

 

Short of that, I don't see why there can't be a small amount of fill in the harbor on the east side of E.9th across from Voinovich park, north of the Coast Guard site.  Just enough to add some more 1-3 story buildings so that the tequila bar isn't so isolated and there's more motivation for foot traffic at the end of the pier.  I know its in the flight path of Burke, but it seems far enough away to build something short.

^Agreed.  I'd also like to see the Mather moved to another location.  It is taking up too much space at the harbor.   

6 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

And back to the future/present! Agree the city did look great last night. When was the last time an international event went down on our lakefront? It's intriguing to wonder what the Haslam's vision and role will be in the near future.

 

As with Burke, I don't think we necessarily need to move the stadium. Let's work with what we have in an attainable time frame. IThe ball appears to be rolling with changes that should have a dramatic and fairly immediate impact:

 

First the programming at the Rock Hall needs to expand. By all accounts that appears to be happening with the outdoor venue. But there needs to be more events, especially outside and later at night. Provide ample reason to be down there after 4pm. Same goes with Voinovich Park and the Science Center...we just need more going on. 

 

Second there needs to be a better pedestrian flow. Again, that bridge everyone seems to hate should really help out a lot in that regard. The layout between buildings has always been disjointed and not well-designed from an urban context. Fortunately that's fixable. Above my pay grade for sure, but lets connect those attractions.  

 

Third there needs to be more public facilities. I'm thinking especially wrt public restrooms that are safe and well maintained. Can we provide safe and clean public bathrooms in this country? The jury is out on that subject but I'm hopeful. 

 

Finally we need a few more restaurants or retail spaces. Nothing near the level of the Flats or anything, but just a few more stakeholders to boost the livelihood and to help connect these dots. We have a Mexican restaurant, and a new cafe coming...that's good but just not enough. These could be integrated with the boat terminal or some well placed grouping toward Voinovich Park. Maybe seasonal. But a little investment in infrastructure would go a long way.  

 

Anyhow it feels like there's momentum and this stuff is just fun to talk about when ideas and long-delayed plans are finally getting traction. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You’re right about the public restrooms. As a former Uber/Lyft driver downtown it cut my night short very often when after 11 pm there was no place to go. If there had been restrooms available I might have stayed on the road. I wonder if the lack of safe transportation is killing downtown nightlife 

15 minutes ago, Growth Mindset said:

You’re right about the public restrooms. As a former Uber/Lyft driver downtown it cut my night short very often when after 11 pm there was no place to go. If there had been restrooms available I might have stayed on the road. I wonder if the lack of safe transportation is killing downtown nightlife 

Use my old trick. Been doing it since the 1980's! Just be sure you are decently dressed, but I'd always go into nicer downtown hotels. Their lobby restroom are usually safe and clean. Especially in the larger places, there's likely to be other people around and no one would think anything was remiss.

22 minutes ago, Growth Mindset said:

I wonder if the lack of safe transportation is killing downtown nightlife 

 

Downtown nightlife is, and will be fine.

18 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

^ HA...I used to work door/security at Noisemakers!  Blast from the past.

 

That had to be shall-we-say "opportune".

 

I only worked at a suburban club (bar with a dance floor and DJs, really) and once observed that I never had much game, then got a job where I didn't need it.  :0

1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Downtown nightlife is, and will be fine.

 

It has been for almost 40 years now, and will continue to be.   Only making it impossible to keep people safe down there will change that, and we're nowhere close to that.

12 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

And back to the future/present! Agree the city did look great last night. When was the last time an international event went down on our lakefront? It's intriguing to wonder what the Haslam's vision and role will be in the near future.

 

As with Burke, I don't think we necessarily need to move the stadium. Let's work with what we have in an attainable time frame. IThe ball appears to be rolling with changes that should have a dramatic and fairly immediate impact:

 

First the programming at the Rock Hall needs to expand. By all accounts that appears to be happening with the outdoor venue. But there needs to be more events, especially outside and later at night. Provide ample reason to be down there after 4pm. Same goes with Voinovich Park and the Science Center...we just need more going on. 

 

Second there needs to be a better pedestrian flow. Again, that bridge everyone seems to hate should really help out a lot in that regard. The layout between buildings has always been disjointed and not well-designed from an urban context. Fortunately that's fixable. Above my pay grade for sure, but lets connect those attractions.  

 

Third there needs to be more public facilities. I'm thinking especially wrt public restrooms that are safe and well maintained. Can we provide safe and clean public bathrooms in this country? The jury is out on that subject but I'm hopeful. 

 

Finally we need a few more restaurants or retail spaces. Nothing near the level of the Flats or anything, but just a few more stakeholders to boost the livelihood and to help connect these dots. We have a Mexican restaurant, and a new cafe coming...that's good but just not enough. These could be integrated with the boat terminal or some well placed grouping toward Voinovich Park. Maybe seasonal. But a little investment in infrastructure would go a long way.  

 

Anyhow it feels like there's momentum and this stuff is just fun to talk about when ideas and long-delayed plans are finally getting traction. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Mexican restaurant you named has clean public restrooms right behind it, next to the sand volleyball courts.

 

On the semi-public sense, someone else mentioned hotels and to that I would add the ones in Tower City (or what’s left of it) and inside the Casino.

 

Your point is well taken though, we need more of them and more assurances that they will be clean.

Just had to share this. 🌈 

Here is an article about possible lakefront development.  I like the idea of having a master plan instead of doing piecemeal development.  I would hope the master plan is strictly recreational and entertainment venues.  There is no need for offices, apartments or other non-public structures on the lakefront IMO.

 

 https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/nfl-cleveland-possible-lakefront-development/95-fb0fde09-d8ee-434d-b645-d3ec1104a407

 

6 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Here is an article about possible lakefront development.  I like the idea of having a master plan instead of doing piecemeal development.  I would hope the master plan is strictly recreational and entertainment venues.  There is no need for offices, apartments or other non-public structures on the lakefront IMO.

 

 https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/nfl-cleveland-possible-lakefront-development/95-fb0fde09-d8ee-434d-b645-d3ec1104a407

 

 

I disagree. if you have "offices, apartments or other non-public structures on the lakefront" especially apartments/condos, it makes it a more vibrant area---not just a weekend, evenings, or summertime place, but a real community and neighborhood--that ALSO is a recreational/entertainment area. For example, recreational/entertainment-only areas often have crappy and overpriced restaurants--and whose hours are timed to specific entertainment/recreation schedules vs real life---why not have real and decent amenities that are always there (and open)?

Edited May 3, 20214 yr by Pugu

I think you can get the benefits of offices and apartments as long as they are near the lake, but they don't need to be on the water. I agree that, to the greatest degree feasible, all future waterfront development should have clear public benefit. The waterfront should be accessible to everyone in the city. 

Let's first fill all those surface parking lots downtown with offices and residential before adding any on the lakefront.  Also, any offices or residential buildings on the lakefront would be height restricted due to Burke. 

 

Edited May 3, 20214 yr by skiwest

This doesn't have to be an either-or proposition.  Vibrant spaces, on the lakefront or elsewhere in cities generally, involve mixes of uses.  Having recreational space makes offices and apartments more attractive.  Having offices and apartments near recreational spaces allows more people to use the spaces.  The best way to plan and build is all of the above.

2 hours ago, skiwest said:

Here is an article about possible lakefront development.  I like the idea of having a master plan instead of doing piecemeal development.  I would hope the master plan is strictly recreational and entertainment venues.  There is no need for offices, apartments or other non-public structures on the lakefront IMO.

 

 https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/nfl-cleveland-possible-lakefront-development/95-fb0fde09-d8ee-434d-b645-d3ec1104a407

 

Huh??

Yeah let’s take valuable lakefront property that people are willing to cut their arms off to live in and let’s not allow anybody to live there. Tf? 🙄

well per that report both sides have good points. of course the developer is in a hurry, but it comes down to the city should have had a firm master plan for this site a long time ago and at least some plan or ideas for the bigger picture around the lakefront. there has been plenty of downtime for developing these kinds of plans and there is no excuse, so they need to get moving on it.

3 hours ago, mrnyc said:

well per that report both sides have good points. of course the developer is in a hurry, but it comes down to the city should have had a firm master plan for this site a long time ago and at least some plan or ideas for the bigger picture around the lakefront. there has been plenty of downtime for developing these kinds of plans and there is no excuse, so they need to get moving on it.

it is infuriating. 

There have been a few master plans over the years.  I know Jane Campbell unveiled a plan about 15 years ago, but I can't seem to find any info on what it entailed.  

6 hours ago, skiwest said:

Here is an article about possible lakefront development.  I like the idea of having a master plan instead of doing piecemeal development.  I would hope the master plan is strictly recreational and entertainment venues.  There is no need for offices, apartments or other non-public structures on the lakefront IMO.

 

 https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/nfl-cleveland-possible-lakefront-development/95-fb0fde09-d8ee-434d-b645-d3ec1104a407

 

 

The way the shoreline is shaped, bending to the northeast when you get to downtown heading east, your plan would create a ghost town between late October and mid April.

There's also existing residential that isn't going to welcome public access at all, and not just in Bratenhal.

 

Piecemeal development works best.   Work with the existing parks, and when opportunity exists perhaps expand them.

@skiwest

 

The Campbell-era Waterfront District Plan info is online - 

 

https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/lakefront/iactive/

 

Cool poster - 

 

https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/lakefront/iactive/poster/waterfront_poster.pdf

 

7 minutes ago, mtnbikefan said:

@skiwest

 

The Campbell-era Waterfront District Plan info is online - 

 

https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/lakefront/iactive/

 

Cool poster - 

 

https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/lakefront/iactive/poster/waterfront_poster.pdf

 

 

That is still the "in force" lakefront land use plan.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

That is still the "in force" lakefront land use plan.

 

Is there a pdf of it?  On that link it is only an "interactive" plan and for me doesn't work citing a "flash" issue.

17 hours ago, skiwest said:

There have been a few master plans over the years.  I know Jane Campbell unveiled a plan about 15 years ago, but I can't seem to find any info on what it entailed.  

That was the 2004 plan, i can dig it up if anyone wants to see it

And here is another article:

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/2021-nfl-draft/whats-next-for-clevelands-north-coast-harbor-now-that-the-nfl-draft-is-over

 

Current status of harbor bridge :  

4 hours ago, skiwest said:

And here is another article:

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/2021-nfl-draft/whats-next-for-clevelands-north-coast-harbor-now-that-the-nfl-draft-is-over

 

 

I'd rather have Pace's original vision (below) already started than wait several more years just to hope our "leadership" can get a coherent plan in place. I sometimes wonder if anyone on this forum will even still be alive to see this area properly developed.  

 

 

Edited May 5, 20214 yr by surfohio

30 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Current status of harbor bridge :  

 

Might be wishful thinking on my part, but my hope is that because this small harbor bridge is so ugly, that its hideous design becomes somehow a counter balance to the sleek architecture of the Rock Hall and Science center and ultimately ages well.     

Why did the deal with Pace / Cumberland fall through--wasn't it a done deal?