May 15, 20214 yr When it comes to lakefront pedestrian bridges under construction in Cleveland, this one (by far) wins the attractiveness contest.
May 16, 20214 yr Shoreline Revitalization News. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/first-pieces-of-150-acre-shoreline-revitalization-between-east-55th-and-east-72nd-coming-online-in-2021
May 16, 20214 yr lakefront vision proposed by browns and city.... pretty impressive render video https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2021/05/lakefront-vision-proposed-by-the-browns-could-work-if-it-enriches-the-city-and-region-not-just-the-team.html
May 16, 20214 yr I LOVE what the Browns have put forward. I think it’s a PERFECT blend of public space and private development. It would’ve been politically untenable to not have public space and it would’ve been stupid to not have room for private development. This plan has both. I love it Edited May 16, 20214 yr by inlovewithCLE
May 16, 20214 yr And yet another plan. Whatever happens with the lakefront I would like to see three things, #1 - some scale of a land bridge connecting with the mall, #2 - about 2/3 of the development to remain for public use, #3 - that the stadium remains. I know there was some talk about using the intermodel site for the stadium but that's just too close to Industry, Highway exchanges, and just bad landscape. you don't show case one of your city's best assets by putting it near those things, the aerial images would be horrible and would not do us any favors. But this is all twenty years away, in the meantime I would still build the Rosales Bridge you can have both a bridge and a land bridge. I would use the money from the recent Federal money we will be getting to make up the difference in the funding for it.
May 16, 20214 yr Well that looks awesome. And the Haslams have deep pockets, which gives me more confidence. Since it’s subscriber exclusive, I can’t read it right now. What are they proposing w the Shoreway? It’s looks like it is still below grade highway from W 3rd to the Muni lots, but I don’t see a connection to the Main Ave bridge. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
May 16, 20214 yr The Rosales bridge isn't happening. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 16, 20214 yr I don't have a subscription to Cleveland.com, so if I have any of this wrong let me know. Pros: - It continues the line of the malls, very aesthetically pleasing - Creates new space by adding intersections to the shoreway. - Pedestrian bridge over the W 3rd intersection is a nice touch Cons: - Stays elevated way past the shoreway, meaning people will have to double back to get to the Rock Hall. Given that they are moving the shoreway anyway with this proposal, I don't see why this is necessary. - Tower to the west of new green space will put significant portions of the land bridge/new mall in the shade during prime afternoon hours, resulting in more underutilized green space in the nine months of the year where Clevelanders avoid shade like the plague. - Span between the mall and E 9th seems disconnected from everything, I don't see many people using this at all. Other thoughts: - Does the article mention anything about Amtrak?
May 16, 20214 yr 20 minutes ago, KJP said: The Rosales bridge isn't happening. What, so I'm not allowed to dream? But back to reality. I would like to see the city and the Browns get with the Metroparks and build a Wendy's Park type Bridge where the existing pedestrian bridge by First Energy is, the one that hasn't been maintained in 30 years and replace it. The Lakefront need something now not ten years from now.
May 16, 20214 yr If I'm seeing this video correctly, you can't even walk off the north end of the land bridge!? The point of this is to better connect our city, this bridge will create as many barriers as connections. Overall, I think I prefer the Green Ribbon Coalitions proposal. It makes a lot more sense from a pedestrian traffic point of view.
May 16, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, Htsguy said: Are those "conceptual" high rises even possible given Burke? I would think so. They are actually south of the centerline of the departure end of the 24R runway. And they are lower than the stadium at the end of the 24L runway. The BKL obstacle departure procedure already includes an immediate right turn out over the lake, and there is no instrument approach procedure to the 6 runways (other than circling from 24R). So while the FAA would have to sign off on this plan, I don't see any major obstacles to implementing it outside of the normal chart and ODP updates.
May 16, 20214 yr Amazing plans! I usually look at things from a design standpoint, so here are a couple things I noticed that are worth pointing out: 1) I like how the ground cover on the land bridge and the lakefront parks mimic that of Public Square's design - this gives a lot of visual coherence that is definitely important for the project, so that is a big plus 2) For people worried about getting off the north end of the bridge, look no further than here: 3) I love the land bridge extension with retail/communal spaces underneath - this reminds me a lot of Navy Pier which is multi-leveled in this particular instance shown below with walkability on top and restaurants/shops underneath: 4) I'm sure a good portion of the forumers here will see this proposal and immediately lose hope for future stadium plans - I see the complete opposite. This plan allows for either of the conditions, where the surrounding park/infrastructure can be built and then at a later date, the Haslams can either keep the stadium where it is, or move it somewhere else in Downtown without messing with the new infrastructure around it and they can just put some more buildings/park there in its place. It seems like a win-win for me. Side note: I have plenty enough material here to start adding all of this to the model. While I can't do the renders here justice, hopefully I might be able to help answer some functionality questions as I piece this all together.
May 16, 20214 yr 19 hours ago, Ethan said: Wendy Park Bridge Didn't know about this bridge---thought for a second it was over the Cuyahoga. Now THAT would be a game changer for the city.
May 16, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, Geowizical said: For people worried about getting off the north end of the bridge, look no further than here: I understand you can get off the bridge here, my problem is that this appears like it may be the only area to get off the bridge. That will result in lots of backtracking, and won't be great for connection or pedestrian flow. Far from ideal.
May 16, 20214 yr What I'm currently lost on though is what happened to the Shoreway in the renderings... The aerial plan shows a "new shoreway road" but I take this as similar to the one off the current East9th exit that goes past the rock hall, science center, and around the stadium. Am I missing something here?
May 16, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Well that looks awesome. And the Haslams have deep pockets, which gives me more confidence. Since it’s subscriber exclusive, I can’t read it right now. What are they proposing w the Shoreway? It’s looks like it is still below grade highway from W 3rd to the Muni lots, but I don’t see a connection to the Main Ave bridge. Yes this proposal would remove the existing Shoreway from the Main Street Bridge to East 9th. A new roadway would start from an intersection at West 3rd north of the tracks and south of the stadium. It would then travel east underneath the mall extension/land bridge, towards a new signalized/at grade intersection with East 9th replacing the diamond interchange. There is potentially billons in federal funding for highway removal coming in the near future which could help fund this project. The Haslam's deep pockets can sure help. According to the article, the Browns payed $1 million for this plan (which was developed by Nelson Byrd Woltz landscape architects, CallisonRTKL, Osborn Engineering and AoDK Architecture). An early estimate for the projects cost is $229 million.
May 16, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, Geowizical said: What I'm currently lost on though is what happened to the Shoreway in the renderings... The aerial plan shows a "new shoreway road" but I take this as similar to the one off the current East9th exit that goes past the rock hall, science center, and around the stadium. Am I missing something here? It looks to me like they are planning to combine Erieside and the Shoreway into one road that follows the path of Erieside Ave. What I don't understand is why they don't move it a bit South and down while they are rebuilding it so that the land bridge can return to surface level sooner.
May 16, 20214 yr ^ I think I can see it now, thanks for the help everyone - looks like Route 2 will come in on the existing road and instead stop at East 9th at the intersection circled, and then start back up at the existing Lakeside Avenue exit. Edited May 16, 20214 yr by Geowizical
May 16, 20214 yr Interesting paragraph from the article... Developed at a cost to the Browns of nearly $1 million according to David Jenkins, the team’s chief operating officer, the plan envisions a virtuous cycle of public and private investment that could benefit the city and the entire region, even if the Browns were to move off the lakefront. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 16, 20214 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 16, 20214 yr This is obviously a pretty cool plan, but why only cap the mall extension portion? We need to bridge as much of that road as possible. Edited May 16, 20214 yr by Ineffable_Matt
May 16, 20214 yr I tell you one thing - IF they could pull this off then all of these years of waiting would make it worth it. This time please find a way.
May 16, 20214 yr I think focusing on the fact that there’s no bridge over lakeside is focusing on the wrong part of this massive conceptual plan lol. Jimmy dished out $1 million for the plan which means he’s serious about doing something. Let’s gooo!!
May 16, 20214 yr The devil will be in all the details, and there will be many details- but so far I am really impressed with the vision. I would think that the buildings to the North and West of the stadium could proceed fairly quickly, as well. Hopefully they will. The landbridge, Shoreway reconfig and larger buildings along the tracks are obviously more of a long term vision. PS, this plan shows why the current Voinovich bridge is so poorly positioned, and why it would have been so much better for North Coast Harbor circulation to have put it at the mouth of the harbor instead of across the middle. It really doesn't shorten the trip from anywhere to anywhere by a lot, especially when you have to backtrack from north of the stadium to get to Voinovich park.
May 16, 20214 yr 28 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said: I think focusing on the fact that there’s no bridge over lakeside is focusing on the wrong part of this massive conceptual plan lol. Jimmy dished out $1 million for the plan which means he’s serious about doing something. Let’s gooo!! Agree 100%. I’m not sure any past vision for the lakefront has had an interested party from the private sector quite like the Haslams. I hope this is seen through.
May 16, 20214 yr It is too cluttered. I don't like the towers on the south end. I assume they are all residential since there is no current demand for offices or hotels. I don't think the FAA will be too happy with the buildings north of the stadium. There should be more open space. Any buildings should be for recreational and entertainment purposes. I'd like to see a music pavilion, gardens, perhaps a world class aquarium and maybe a Ferris wheel. Let's first focus on developing the surface parking lots and filling the empty office buildings before building towers on the lakefront. Edited May 20, 20214 yr by skiwest
May 16, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, X said: This plan shows why the current Voinovich bridge is so poorly positioned, and why it would have been so much better for North Coast Harbor circulation to have put it at the mouth of the harbor instead of across the middle. It really doesn't shorten the trip from anywhere to anywhere by a lot, especially when you have to backtrack from north of the stadium to get to Voinovich park. That is why it is important to have a master plan in place before embarking on projects willy nilly.
May 16, 20214 yr "But the key question is whether the proposal leads to greater racial and social equity in one of America’s poorest and most segregated cities." This boilerplate nonsense is so cliche. Can't the city/developers just develop the f'ing lakefront without bringing race, equity, and other buzzwords into the conversation. As for the proposal, it looks great. As for how realistic it is, well...
May 16, 20214 yr 50 minutes ago, freethink said: Closer look at the land bridge. There’s one part that’s sorta like the big steps at Lakewood Park but looking down on train tracks. I think the renderings don’t do justice to how cool it would be. Frankly, I’m just blown away by all these renderings. I get that it’s just conceptual and there have been lots of lakefront plans that failed, blah blah, but this concept is really really exciting. If built as rendered, this could be the coolest area in the city.
May 17, 20214 yr If the engineering can match these pretty pictures, I'm ALL-IN. 😆 These "Rail, Diesel, Train-roof & Gravel-view Pits" on the land bridge do seem superfluous and expensive. - Okay to that, but whatev(?) "There's no there there." - Gertrude Stein IMO, If we can pour this much infrastructure, there's going to need to be a lot more lease-able space to cover those costs. Edited May 17, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy
May 17, 20214 yr I would think the low hanging fruit would be to convert the Huntington and Willard park garage tops into green roofs, while directly tying them in to the new land bridge. Stretching park space from East 9th to West 3rd. Also would directly tie in Fort Huntington Park. Edited May 17, 20214 yr by marty15
May 17, 20214 yr My question is: what exactly does one get for the $229 million? Just the rail bridge? Rail plus Shoreway mods? Buildings? Obviously, you couldn't realize the whole thing for that price. Stay tuned for more, I guess. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
May 17, 20214 yr It's nice to imagine how pleasant it would be to walk through this rendering. I recently visited to attend the NFL Draft and walking down E. 9th Street across the Shoreway to the Lakefront....not pleasant.
May 17, 20214 yr Oh well, RIP Lakefront Outlet Mall! I actually went onto the Horizon Groups website and theres next to no mention of the Cleveland Outlet Mall now outwith a PDF from last year.
May 17, 20214 yr Instead of money going for a new stadium I would be for all of it going towards this plan. Was there an estimated price tag for all of this? Edited May 17, 20214 yr by dave2017
May 17, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, dave2017 said: Instead of money going for a new stadium I would be for all of it going towards this plan. Was there an estimated price tag for all of this? The future of First Energy Stadium is not determined by this plan. It could stay or go. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 17, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, snakebite said: Oh well, RIP Lakefront Outlet Mall! I actually went onto the Horizon Groups website and theres next to no mention of the Cleveland Outlet Mall now outwith a PDF from last year. I found this in Horizon Group Properties 2020 ANNUAL REPORT: As I have written in the past, the Company believes it has identified a great site and plan for a center in downtown Cleveland. Activity on this development has slowed considerably as the retailers with whom we need to enter into leases and the local governments with whom we need to finalize entitlements are focused on issues related to COVID-19. It is hard to determine when meaningful development activity will resume but we remain committed to this effort. PDF of their 2020 Annual Report: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/9628b37b-8065-401a-b0ee-081c9fe7e632/downloads/2020 ANNUAL REPORT.pdf?ver=1619184519363 EDIT: And the company has spent over $ 600,000.00, mainly on developing this site... Edited May 17, 20214 yr by Larry1962 Typos and more details
May 17, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: The future of First Energy Stadium is not determined by this plan. It could stay or go. Actually, this plan makes me see how vibrant the lakefront could be even with FES. The combination of park space, what's presumably residential and what's presumably retail is just so on point. There aren't many ways the plan could be better. What are you going to replace FES with except more of what's already in the plan?
May 17, 20214 yr 17 minutes ago, Larry1962 said: I found this in Horizon Group Properties 2020 ANNUAL REPORT: As I have written in the past, the Company believes it has identified a great site and plan for a center in downtown Cleveland. Activity on this development has slowed considerably as the retailers with whom we need to enter into leases and the local governments with whom we need to finalize entitlements are focused on issues related to COVID-19. It is hard to determine when meaningful development activity will resume but we remain committed to this effort. PDF of their 2020 Annual Report: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/9628b37b-8065-401a-b0ee-081c9fe7e632/downloads/2020 ANNUAL REPORT.pdf?ver=1619184519363 Excellent
May 17, 20214 yr Okay so I was thinking, how in the world did the Haslam's spend a million dollars? It certainly couldn't have been solely on these great-but-already-outdated renderings, right? Who exactly is supposed to be filling up all development? My best guess is that the Haslam's have some serious business partner or partners in the works. Someone big enough to help take up a significant portion of this development plan. Someone bigger or in addition to the previously identified partners that Pace had been touting. Now I have my own theories but will keep them to myself in order to prevent this from becoming a wild speculation thread. It's already been a sim-city thread for long enough lol. But my questions I think are vital ones. Why else would the Haslam's be spending on this endeavor?
May 17, 20214 yr 10 minutes ago, surfohio said: Okay so I was thinking, how in the world did the Haslam's spend a million dollars? It certainly couldn't have been solely on these great-but-already-outdated renderings, right? Who exactly is supposed to be filling up all development? My best guess is that the Haslam's have some serious business partner or partners in the works. Someone big enough to help take up a significant portion of this development plan. Someone bigger or in addition to the previously identified partners that Pace had been touting. Now I have my own theories but will keep them to myself in order to prevent this from becoming a wild speculation thread. It's already been a sim-city thread for long enough lol. But my questions I think are vital ones. Why else would the Haslam's be spending on this endeavor? Berkshire Hathaway is set to take a further 41% stake in Pilot/Flying J by 2023. Probably worth $5-8 billion. There’s some play money. They already have a 39% stake in the company.
May 17, 20214 yr 8 minutes ago, marty15 said: Berkshire Hathaway is set to take a further 41% stake in Pilot/Flying J by 2023. Probably worth $5-8 billion. There’s some play money. They already have a 39% stake in the company. Interesting. Do you think their (BH) retail arm is involved? Because look at this plan, it's not filled up with your typical waterfront boardwalk rides and attractions. There's no ferris wheel, no touristy fun promenade...this is looking like office and retail.
May 17, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, surfohio said: Okay so I was thinking, how in the world did the Haslam's spend a million dollars? It certainly couldn't have been solely on these great-but-already-outdated renderings, right? Who exactly is supposed to be filling up all development? My best guess is that the Haslam's have some serious business partner or partners in the works. Someone big enough to help take up a significant portion of this development plan. Someone bigger or in addition to the previously identified partners that Pace had been touting. Now I have my own theories but will keep them to myself in order to prevent this from becoming a wild speculation thread. It's already been a sim-city thread for long enough lol. But my questions I think are vital ones. Why else would the Haslam's be spending on this endeavor? Especially if the stadium isn’t guaranteed to stay; what exactly is the Haslam’s play here IF the stadium does move? They don’t own any of this land so...? I just don’t understand how the Haslam’s benefit from all this (and I love the plan) if the stadium/Browns aren’t guaranteed to stay down there. Do they have a lease agreement with the city on the land that Pace had?
Create an account or sign in to comment