1 hour ago, surfohio said:

 

Interesting. Do you think their (BH) retail arm is involved?

That’s a lot of Dairy Queens!

On 5/16/2021 at 4:47 PM, freethink said:

Closer look at the land bridge.

 

 

Can someone explain why on earth you would build a landbridge to connect two areas, and then just cut holes in it? Why would I want to look down on the track/road underneathm when I can already look at those from over the edge?  Is it to purposely split pedestrian traffic onto the two sides?  Overall, the plan is great, and props to the Haslam's for paying for this.  I just can't get over trying to figure out why you would do this.  

6 minutes ago, smimes said:

 

Can someone explain why on earth you would build a landbridge to connect two areas, and then just cut holes in it? Why would I want to look down on the track/road underneathm when I can already look at those from over the edge?  Is it to purposely split pedestrian traffic onto the two sides?  Overall, the plan is great, and props to the Haslam's for paying for this.  I just can't get over trying to figure out why you would do this.  

In part to provide natural light to the convention center below. 

6 minutes ago, smimes said:

 

Can someone explain why on earth you would build a landbridge to connect two areas, and then just cut holes in it? Why would I want to look down on the track/road underneathm when I can already look at those from over the edge?  Is it to purposely split pedestrian traffic onto the two sides?  Overall, the plan is great, and props to the Haslam's for paying for this.  I just can't get over trying to figure out why you would do this.  

My guess is to avoid having a tunnel and all the regulations and restrictions that go with it.  I remember years ago when Columbus was putting a "cap" on High St. over 670, near the convention center and one of the biggest concerns was how wide the cap was to avoid being labeled a tunnel.  

1 hour ago, smimes said:

 

Can someone explain why on earth you would build a landbridge to connect two areas, and then just cut holes in it? Why would I want to look down on the track/road underneathm when I can already look at those from over the edge?  Is it to purposely split pedestrian traffic onto the two sides?  Overall, the plan is great, and props to the Haslam's for paying for this.  I just can't get over trying to figure out why you would do this.  

 

Because it's dope.

 

 

Do we all honestly believe that green roofs are as popular in the commercial real estate community as these renderings suggest. I’m doubtful.


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I don't know if every building is going to have one, but the Lakefront is certainly a place where they will be considered to be an extra valuable amenity.

5 minutes ago, X said:

I don't know if every building is going to have one, but the Lakefront is certainly a place where they will be considered to be an extra valuable amenity.

Urban runoff has caused such major water quality issues. It makes good sense to have that rainwater not gushing straight into the lake. 

I suspect that the runoff from these buildings' roofs would end up in the storm sewers like the runoff from any other building.  It doesn't go direct into the lake just because these buildings are on the lakefront.  Green roofs are an asset anywhere for that reason.

36 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

Do we all honestly believe that green roofs are as popular in the commercial real estate community as these renderings suggest. I’m doubtful.


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Not at all, renderings love to put green roofs on every building, At a quick glance, it makes the plan look like it has far more green space. In reality, I don't expect any of these buildings to have a green roof, and certainly not all of them (though I'd be delighted if they did!). 

Meh. As a concept, the "land bridge" is way overrated, IMHO.  That feeling of vast, windswept, exposed emptiness you get on the Malls for 300+ days a year...extended all the way to the lake.  I just don't get the appeal. 

 

And this plan does nothing to make the existing North Coast Harbor area any less bleak.  It's an over-built pedestrian superhighway to serve Haslam's sports asset 9 days a year with a few buildings scattered around. Everything else is an afterthought. 

 

9 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

Meh. As a concept, the "land bridge" is way overrated, IMHO.  That feeling of vast, windswept, exposed emptiness you get on the Malls for 300+ days a year...extended all the way to the lake.  I just don't get the appeal. 

 

And this plan does nothing to make the existing North Coast Harbor area any less bleak.  It's an over-built pedestrian superhighway to serve Haslam's sports asset 9 days a year with a few buildings scattered around. Everything else is an afterthought. 

 

 

If you're going to do something with the lakeshore, that wind is going to be a factor.

 

From roughly downtown to the east, the shoreline curves to the north, meaning the prevailing winds from the west and northwest come straight across the lake.

^Right, so why spend $100M more than you need to building an enormous "land bridge" space that won't be especially enjoyable for most of the year in those elements instead of something narrower, maybe partially sheltered (since trees aren't an option)?

 

These plans just seem so lazy to me. Like no one wants to do the hard work of thinking through how a pedestrian would actually experience this journey when it's like sunny and 85 degrees. Or when rainy and 40 degrees. Why would they want to make this journey?  

 

It seems like a lot of the big voices in this town are obsessed with wowing the mythological weekend visitor who walks to the end of the Mall, sees the lakefront and says "how to I get down there"?!  It's nuts. That's not who we should be designing stuff and for and not how we should be spending our discretionary capital funds. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

Meh. As a concept, the "land bridge" is way overrated, IMHO.  That feeling of vast, windswept, exposed emptiness you get on the Malls for 300+ days a year...extended all the way to the lake.  I just don't get the appeal. 

 

And this plan does nothing to make the existing North Coast Harbor area any less bleak.  It's an over-built pedestrian superhighway to serve Haslam's sports asset 9 days a year with a few buildings scattered around. Everything else is an afterthought. 

 

 

If there's a reason to go down towards the stadium area then people will do it. I guarantee that if there's attractions/life down there then it won't be an issue - I don't see this being built for the stadium at all. That said, the connections to down there are absolute trash right now, I feel bad for tourists (and everyday folk!) walking up E. 9 from the Rock Hall/Science Center, present day it's god awful (and folks do that crap trek in all weather!). 

 

It's like half the people that live and work here don't realize what an asset we have in the lake because it's been avoided/forgotten for so long, time to build EVERY connection to it.

Edited May 18, 20214 yr by GISguy

3 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

It seems like a lot of the big voices in this town are obsessed with wowing the mythological weekend visitor who walks to the end of the Mall, sees the lakefront and says "how to I get down there"?!  It's nuts. That's not who we should be designing stuff and for and not how we should be spending our discretionary capital funds. 

 

Respectfully disagree. The downtown lakefront is a mess of incomplete and unconnected segments. It needs better infrastructure to build upon. It's quite frankly embarrassing that virtually every other waterfront city has capitalized on their waterfront and Cleveland is still planning and planning. 

^Agreed!  The connection should absolutely be improved. I just think this clumsy way to do it. 

 

If you can really convince the city and state to remove this stretch of the shoreway, the possibilities are amazing.  Soaking up that space with huge concrete parking pedestals and this  elevated pedestrian plaza does not seem especially thoughtful, IMHO.

well a land bridge will be more important as the lakefront get further devloped, so eventually its not just for events and weekenders.

 

but the issues of not thinking it through are valid, thats why i think i prefer the previous and i would guess cheaper land bridge idea.

 

here it looks like the haslams have been informed about and drawn into the long imagined dream of connecting the malls to the waterfront. but without a new rail transit center improvement underneath i dont see that it has to be the only solution. in fact the previous idea seems more creative.

 

i dk, but for sure a land bridge is needed as time goes by, so if the iron is hot now and the haslams are looking to invest in it this might be the best and most practical way to actually get something built.

Just now, StapHanger said:

^Agreed!  The connection should absolutely be improved. I just think this clumsy way to do it. 

 

If you can really convince the city and state to remove this stretch of the shoreway, the possibilities are amazing.  Soaking up that space with huge concrete parking pedestals and this  elevated pedestrian plaza does not seem especially thoughtful, IMHO.

 

 

well for sure calming the shoreway is a wildcard here. maybe thats the easiest and best thing to do to open up access.

23 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

^Right, so why spend $100M more than you need to building an enormous "land bridge" space that won't be especially enjoyable for most of the year in those elements instead of something narrower, maybe partially sheltered (since trees aren't an option)?

 

These plans just seem so lazy to me. Like no one wants to do the hard work of thinking through how a pedestrian would actually experience this journey when it's like sunny and 85 degrees. Or when rainy and 40 degrees. Why would they want to make this journey?  

 

It seems like a lot of the big voices in this town are obsessed with wowing the mythological weekend visitor who walks to the end of the Mall, sees the lakefront and says "how to I get down there"?!  It's nuts. That's not who we should be designing stuff and for and not how we should be spending our discretionary capital funds. 

 

 

 

Thinking about big trees for wind-breaking is a fine idea (and could be considered for the other malls!), but I strongly disagree with everything else you're saying. First off, I think you're overdoing the "oh, Cleveland has terrible weather" thing. Yeah, downtown gets uncomfortable in the winter. There are areas that get really windy. But, really, it's just December through February that are consistently bad, November and April are hit or miss, and May through October are basically beautiful. If the windswept cold was so bad, people wouldn't live downtown right now, but they do. For more than half the year, a trip to the lakefront is nice and comfortable enough to be justified, and some kind of enclosure for pedestrians is totally unnecessary.

 

Second, the things that make an area good for the "weekend visitor" also make the area good for downtown residents and even the new lakefront residents in what would essentially be a new neighborhood. The lakefront is not maximized unless it is a destination.

 

Let me say it differently: If the lakefront is maximized, then it will be a destination.

 

I recognize the plan is pie-in-the-sky and the eventual execution almost certainly won't be quite as grand. But what exactly would be better than this proposal?

Can anyone tell from this plan if the Amtrak station is removed or is it incorporated under the Land Bridge?

8 hours ago, dave2017 said:

Can anyone tell from this plan if the Amtrak station is removed or is it incorporated under the Land Bridge?

 

Replaced by the massive parking garage and apparently incorporated into the land bridge, as suggested by this render. The only way for that passenger train to access the station platform here would be from overhead...

 

 

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

 

Wanted to weigh in on this rendering. By far the most impressive aspect of it are the four new Coastal-looking towers now overlooking the lakefront - Yeah- I want that!  
 

But look at the land bridge and evaluate it independently and what do you have? Another large lawn/mall that is essentially an open mall that looks nice on a sunny summer but just creates a lot more mall. Imagine it during 5 - 6 months of problematic weather. Do you envision a lot of people using an open  grass mall? 
 

I understand why the Hazlams would support a wide land bridge that leads to their stadium but the bigger problem of bringing the city to the lakefront is still unsolved. The highway still effectively separates the city from the lakefront. 
 

if a bridge is the only solution possible, let it be a NY style High Line, designed for year-round walkers and bikers that will frequent an attractive “trail” that connects back to the Towpath and possibly to new attractions north  of FES and a boardwalk along the lakefront.  A “Land bridge” sounds impressive but maybe it’s not actually the smart solution. 
 

At the end of the day, I’m with the camp that wants to remove or relocate a section of  the shore way and truly bring  the city down  to the lakefront. . It’s a “big problem” requiring a big expensive solution - but we’ve not acted  for decades - hope we can get it get it right for future generations and the city’s future in the second half of the century and beyond. 

 

Edited May 19, 20214 yr by CleveFan
Corrected content

10 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

Wanted to weigh in on this rendering. By far the most impressive aspect of it are the four new Coastal-looking towers now overlooking the lakefront - Yeah- I want that!   There’s no access or parking for any of them - I think we all know that this is pure fantasy as rendered. 

 

 

What?? They're sitting on a massive pedestal of parking, which looks to be about four levels tall. That sounds about right since past plans for parking decks there were about the same height but didn't cover as much area. Four levels of parking would come up to the elevation that East 9th crosses the railroad tracks.

 

The approximate size of that parking pedestal appears to be about 300 feet x 1,200 feet = 360,0000 SF x four levels = 1.44 million SF / 350 SF of parking deck space (including lanes, ramps, columns, etc) per car = 4,114 cars.

So who will be filling those towers?  I assume they are residential since there is currently no demand for hotels or new office space (other than SHW).  And I wonder how much more demand there will be for residential.

3 minutes ago, skiwest said:

So who will be filling those towers?  I assume they are residential since there is currently no demand for hotels or new office space (other than SHW).  And I wonder how much more demand there will be for residential.

 

Why? Cleveland still has only 1 percent of its metro population living downtown. Cities with healthy downtowns have well in excess of 2 percent.

29 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

What?? They're sitting on a massive pedestal of parking, which looks to be about four levels tall. That sounds about right since past plans for parking decks there were about the same height but didn't cover as much area. Four levels of parking would come up to the elevation that East 9th crosses the railroad tracks.

 

The approximate size of that parking pedestal appears to be about 300 feet x 1,200 feet = 360,0000 SF x four levels = 1.44 million SF / 350 SF of parking deck space (including lanes, ramps, columns, etc) per car = 4,114 cars.

Ok, I gratefully stand corrected on parking - is there a pedastel under each Tower?  I’d like to see a more specific rendering of how the parking and access around the buildings works. 
 

I’m not worried about filling such attractive new residential towers if they’re built. 
 

It  doesn’t change my opinion of the land bridge - unless the residential towers are guaranteed in the package - then I could be persuaded 😏

Edited May 19, 20214 yr by CleveFan

Just take the land bridge, spin it 90 degrees, and cap the whole shoreway. Easy peasy.

1 hour ago, CleveFan said:

Wanted to weigh in on this rendering. By far the most impressive aspect of it are the four new Coastal-looking towers now overlooking the lakefront - Yeah- I want that!  
 

But look at the land bridge and evaluate it independently and what do you have? Another large lawn/mall that is essentially an open mall that looks nice on a sunny summer but just creates a lot more mall. Imagine it during 5 - 6 months of problematic weather. Do you envision a lot of people using an open  grass mall? 
 

I understand why the Hazlams would support a wide land bridge that leads to their stadium but the bigger problem of bringing the city to the lakefront is still unsolved. The highway still effectively separates the city from the lakefront. 
 

if a bridge is the only solution possible, let it be a NY style High Line, designed for year-round walkers and bikers that will frequent an attractive “trail” that connects back to the Towpath and possibly to new attractions north  of FES and a boardwalk along the lakefront.  A “Land bridge” sounds impressive but maybe it’s not actually the smart solution. 
 

At the end of the day, I’m with the camp that wants to remove or relocate a section of  the shore way and truly bring  the city down  to the lakefront. . It’s a “big problem” requiring a big expensive solution - but we’ve not acted  for decades - hope we can get it get it right for future generations and the city’s future in the second half of the century and beyond. 

 

 

I'd literally ignore the buildings shown in the plan. Pretty sure they are just random eye candy at this point. As far as I can tell, the purpose of this vision is to mobilize local leaders and the public to find and spend the big bucks on a land bridge (and maybe parking structures) and to officially broach the idea of removing this part of the shoreway. 

 

But I agree with you about the pedestrian link.  I didn't articulate it well above, but I'd much rather see a "richly" designed pedestrian route, which can be a mix of bridge and rooftop, with sites for adjacent low and midrise structures, instead of this hulking deck that will look and feel deserted almost all the time, even if the [somewhat far-fetched] towers ever get built.

If a land bridge is built, it seems like that section of the shoreway could be mostly left as is.   They would just need to flatten the piece of roadway that rises up on the western side of the land bridge, which could be done in conjunction with replacement of the Main Ave Bridge which is not going to last much longer.

 

Edited May 19, 20214 yr by skiwest

2 hours ago, CleveFan said:

I understand why the Hazlams would support a wide land bridge that leads to their stadium but the bigger problem of bringing the city to the lakefront is still unsolved. The highway still effectively separates the city from the lakefront. 

 

if a bridge is the only solution possible, let it be a NY style High Line, designed for year-round walkers and bikers that will frequent an attractive “trail” that connects back to the Towpath and possibly to new attractions north  of FES and a boardwalk along the lakefront.  A “Land bridge” sounds impressive but maybe it’s not actually the smart solution. 
 

At the end of the day, I’m with the camp that wants to remove or relocate a section of  the shore way and truly bring  the city down  to the lakefront. . It’s a “big problem” requiring a big expensive solution - but we’ve not acted  for decades - hope we can get it get it right for future generations and the city’s future in the second half of the century and beyond. 

 

 

You could eliminate the shoreway and still need a bridge.  The railroad tracks aren't going anywhere and there is a serious elevation difference between the malls and the stadium.  Call it a Ramp rather than a bridge.

 

I agree that the bridge/ramp needs to be part of a larger effort to have it lead to something that people want to go to, and additional connections to downtown and over to the flats would be welcome.

A cool view from wkyc...

For a MUCH more clear version of the plan, here is the recording of the special planning commission meeting from Monday (5-17-21). This wasn't published online / made available until late tonight (~10pm 5-20-21). The publishing of this video may be in response to a Cleveland.com article from earlier in the day: Cleveland Planning Commission holds special meeting without taking customary steps to notify public, reporters

 

 

The plans presentation answers a lot of questions. A ~30 minute section of the meeting by landscape architect Thomas Woltz is definitely worth a watch. There seems to have been a lot of considerations for the actual engineering challenges of this plan by the design team. Some helpful diagrams graphics from the presentation:

 

 

The taller of the two buildings facing the mall extension/land bridge is intended to be a hotel with direct connection into the convention center. The lower mixed-use building to its east, south the science center, "could host the Amtrak station coming up inside of it." The specifics of a station here do not seem to be fully explored, but there is definitely significant consideration for how the Amtrak station could be incorporated into the project. Woltz mentioned multiple times how this station could create a very grand entrance for people arriving in the city by rail. (As an aside a similar sentiment was shared by the officials of the new Hopkins master plan who wanted to create a more welcoming environment for visitors to the city with a strong/distinct sense of place). 

 

FWIW Nelson Byrd Woltz did a lot of work on Hudson Yards and its public spaces. The architects and designers here have experience creating dynamic pedestrian spaces directly above and connected to transit. Hudson Yards is also the largest development in NYC's history, so it would be fitting to have a firm involved in that project behind the plan of what could potentially be Cleveland's largest development. This plan and the firm is more landscape first / development second, but that might be a good thing for a lakefront plan. The public space involved in the development is going to be a primary selling point to the people/the city. 

 

That clears things up a lot! Thanks! I like that they are looking into a few different ways to connect the land bridge down to the lawn South of the Science Center. I think that will make a huge difference! 

 

Also, I don't remember seeing it further up thread, but the building to the East of the bridge is theorized as a potential Amtrak station, and the building to the West is a hotel. 

Great video of the concrete being poured for the Wendy Park bridge:

 

 

Per the potential of a train station and hotel combo on that site:

 

I will want to see more planned space for taxi/ride-app/bus/mobility device queuing, loading, exchange and drop off for this "multi-modal" enterprise to function well. 

• There doesn't appear to be enough room for such queuing, and it won't work if it isn't planned to handle success. Think about the ticketing and pickup areas at Hopkins and then look again at the amount of space planned between those two towers and the stadium.

• For example, imagine if you will how arriving passengers to scheduled trains might manage their arrival on a big game day or Monday Night Football game. 
  • Culturally speaking, Cleveland police and traffic planners are TERRIBLE about allowing traffic to flow during large events. 

• On the other hand, if we want people to walk across two acres of grass and concrete land-bridge to get to their trains from Lakeside Ave, we might as well put the whole operation in Chagrin Highlands

Just another reason to make Tower City the site for a multimodal transportation center. 

wow....  some of these people remind me of schleprock....   it's to cold, it's to far, it's too ambitious, it's too windy,  no one is there, blah, blah, blah....

 

 

The only question I have that I haven't heard an answer for in this new lakefront proposal, is where the cruise ships will dock when they eventually return. Unless I zoned out and missed it in that hour long video? 

 

It appears the newly remodeled C&I facility isn't in these new plans, so I wonder where it is planning to be relocated to. 

 

On 5/28/2020 at 4:27 PM, Frmr CLEder said:

Victory Cruise lines cancels all Lake Erie cruises for 2020. It's unfortunate because Cleveland just built a C&I facility to accomodate the increase in international tourism.

 

https://trib.al/DHB47pi

 

There is also no mention of reconstructing one of the old Huletts like we heard about before COVID, but there are plenty of parks one can be placed in. 

has there ever been a plan developed just for calmed shoreway access? or would someone maybe like to make one for us to look at and think about???

Thanks @lockdog for "wow.... blah, blah, blah...."

 

The public's process of thinking about, learning about, and understanding this new concept is taking place right here and right now. We amateur/armchair planners (and likely some professional) have all logged in to give our free praise & critique -  and verymuch enjoy doing so.

 

Don't be afraid to consider comments that challenge you. They might inspire modifications to this preliminary plan and make it look & work better for everyone in the finished product.

 

This is your own perfect moment to point out how ideal the current design looks to you and tell us why you think it should be built exactly as shown without changes.

 

NOTE: The time for public discourse & critique is before something gets built. 

Edited May 22, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy

thanks for the reply @ExPatClevGuy  but I come to the forum to read the opinions of everyone and rarely comment....   but when it comes to the the lakefront it's generally the same cons....   there are cities on a latitude further north (or about the same) as our city with active waterfronts...   what can you do about cold weather... put on a coat...  what about a long walk... get in better shape...  I've learned so much from this forum....   keep them coming....

On 5/20/2021 at 11:00 PM, NorthShore647 said:

A ~30 minute section of the meeting by landscape architect Thomas Woltz is definitely worth a watch. 

 

@NorthShore647Thank you again for posting this meeting. Wonderful presentation of his and the team's vision by Thomas Woltz.  Best hour i spent on my Smartphone in a long time. We are fortunate that this talent was sponsored by the Haslam's organization.  Let's take advantage of it!!!

🤔... why build a pretty land bridge at all, since the walk to our current Amtrak stations is already a complete delight.  All one needs is a coat, and a little determination. 😆

 

@lockdogYou must be fully able-bodied - Good for you!  If you suggest then that Cleveland build-in as much inconvenience as possible, have at it. 

 

I put forth that the best-possible critical thinking should go towards convenience of use. Make this facility accessible and inviting enough that people find using it to be a pleasure.

 

In the end, it can look pretty much like these drawing, yet also be something to be proud of because important details related to actual use are considered and ironed out.

 

 

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy

View of the Wendy Park bridge from the mouth of the Cuyahoga at the "Iron Curtain" lift bridge, standing at the end of the Flats East Bank boardwalk from across the river.

This sounds like they've already made up their minds lol. Very condescending actually, more like a lecture than a "dialogue."  

 

June 3: POSSIBILITIES Dialogue: "Should Browns Stadium Be Part of the Harbor?"

 

There are a great many people in Cleveland who believe the stadium should not have been rebuilt on the lakefront, and the footprint could have been better utilized with development that enhanced the area around the Science Center and Rock Hall, and provide the downtown community with dramatically increased green space and access to the lake. 

 

The Green Ribbon Coalition envisions an accessible, connected ribbon of neighborhood, community and regional parks, trails, and nature preserves along the Lake Erie waterfront that inspires all stakeholders to protect, enjoy, and value this natural asset as an essential element of the region's economic success, ecological health, civic vitality, and overall quality of life.

 

With this vision in mind, aren't there better uses for 55 acres of prime lakefront land with direct access to downtown residents via an extended Mall bridging the railroad and Shoreway, the landbridge concept championed by GRC?

 

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/possibilities-should-browns-stadium-be-part-of-the-harbor-tickets-155728174161

Hahahaha

 

UPCOMING DIALOGUES

 - Alternative Site Downtown for Browns Stadium

 

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/possibilities-should-browns-stadium-be-part-of-the-harbor-tickets-155728174161

1 hour ago, infrafreak said:

View of the Wendy Park bridge from the mouth of the Cuyahoga at the "Iron Curtain" lift bridge, standing at the end of the Flats East Bank boardwalk from across the river.

 

I like the way the Wendy Park Bridge melds into the industrial landscape.  It looks like it belongs, and like it should always have been there.

Duo team to design new expansion of I.M. Pei Museum in Ohio

Georgina Johnston

12 Mar 2021

The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame announced that Practice for Architecture and Urbanism and James Corner Field Operations have together won its competition to design a major expansion of the landmark in downtown Cleveland

 

https://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/article/1705343/duo-team-design-new-expansion-im-pei-museum-ohio?bulletin=daily-review-bulletin4&utm_medium=EMAIL&utm_campaign=eNews Bulletin&utm_source=20210527&utm_content=News Review - Thursday (65)::&email_hash=

Current status of the Northcoast Harbor bridge as of about an hour ago


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