5 minutes ago, Henke said:

How have the shops near Voinovich park fared? I haven’t been down there since last fall, but all (both?) the storefronts were closed when I visited last. 

I didn't even realize there were shops there 😂!  I couldn't imagine very well.  However despite how close Voinovich Park is to the RRHOF and GLSC, its presently miles away (hopefully that changes in the coming years).  Your catching the tourists as they walk out of the museums, and not trying to lure them down there.  I'd start in between the RRHOF and GLSC, and then see if the strip could spread down to Voinovich Park.   Just seems to make the most sense.  

Not "development," but DCA is working to program and activate North Coast Harbor more.

 

Gigs on the Green concert series will be at Voinovich Park every Wednesday evening in July, Symphony at Sunset concerts with OPUS 216 will be at Voinovich Park every Sunday evening in June-July, First Friday Hop will be an event featuring a concert stage/vendors/drink tent the first Friday evening of every month June-August. Plus recreation activations include yoga with North Coast Namaste on Tuesdays, Lakefront Leagues kickball and sand volleyball on Wednesdays, and a running club on Thursdays. Plus new family fun nights with kids' yoga and activities at the playground every Thursday evening in July.

 

https://downtowncleveland.com/evening-music-series

https://www.northcoastharbor.org/lakefront-leagues

https://www.northcoastharbor.org/north-coast-namaste

https://www.northcoastharbor.org/harbor-hustlers-running-club

https://downtowncleveland.com/events/family-fun-nights-r93tp-z7ha8-x6n3m-ngb55-c8mrl

 

Just need even more people, even more activity and amenities along the lake, and even more reason for people to keep coming there. Hopefully these will all help out and continue to keep building momentum.

I’m hoping that the RRHOF realizes (eventually) that a largely out door concert venue with views of the lake and/or downtown would be a simply stunning showcase for the city and could become a more regularly utilized and loved aspect of the hall. 
 

I realize that it would have to  be a seasonal venue - a la Blossom -but how cool would it be to sit by the lake for a summer concert downtown? 
 

I know there will be some type of larger space for performances with the expansion, but I don’t know too many details - perhaps others can comment. 
 

I’ve always felt that live (and recorded) performance should be a more critical component of the Hall. A “rock n roll”  museum in general  should break conventions - in addition to the traditional museum displays of outfits, guitars, lyric sheets and the like…

 

And luring people back to the museum and the lakefront experience again and again - what better way than via concert performances? 

I’m hoping that the RRHOF realizes (eventually) that a largely out door concert venue with views of the lake and/or downtown would be a simply stunning showcase for the city and could become a more regularly utilized and loved aspect of the hall. 
 
I realize that it would have to  be a seasonal venue - a la Blossom -but how cool would it be to sit by the lake for a summer concert downtown? 
 
I know there will be some type of larger space for performances with the expansion, but I don’t know too many details - perhaps others can comment. 
 
I’ve always felt that live (and recorded) performance should be a more critical component of the Hall. A “rock n roll”  museum in general  should break conventions - in addition to the traditional museum displays of outfits, guitars, lyric sheets and the like…
 
And luring people back to the museum and the lakefront experience again and again - what better way than via concert performances? 

If they didn’t get it right this time it’s never gonna happen. By the time it would make sense to invest in another big capital project / remodel the place they’ll probably have darted for another city. Obviously I hope I’m wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk in

19 hours ago, Jenny said:

I didn't even realize there were shops there 😂!  I couldn't imagine very well.  However despite how close Voinovich Park is to the RRHOF and GLSC, its presently miles away (hopefully that changes in the coming years).  Your catching the tourists as they walk out of the museums, and not trying to lure them down there.  I'd start in between the RRHOF and GLSC, and then see if the strip could spread down to Voinovich Park.   Just seems to make the most sense.  

 

^ Exactly. This is where the Science Center needs to post up some outdoor interactive exhibit, like "The Science of Music" or whatever over at Voinovich to compliment the Rock Hall experience. There needs to be music and activity in that park and North Coast Harbor all the time. Heck I've seen musicians play inside the Mather and it was awesome, more of that please!

 

With all these separate entities operating in a vacuum we're going to struggle to get anywhere. 

 

7 minutes ago, surfohio said:

With all these separate entities operating in a vacuum we're going to struggle to get anywhere. 

 

You just described NEO lol

2 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

You just described NEO lol

 Haha well it is where the Dirt Devil was created! 

19 minutes ago, surfohio said:

With all these separate entities operating in a vacuum we're going to struggle to get anywhere. 

 

 

The North Coast Development Corp should help with this?

14 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

The North Coast Development Corp should help with this?

 

I thought they were more about the physical infrastructure side of the equation. Which we need improvements for sure. But we surely need some kind of programming & coordination body to herd these cats. 

I assume the tall ships will be back at the harbor again this summer. It would be nice if the city could arrange for more events like that throughout the summer with visits by either naval or other historical vessels. 

Other than sports it seems much of the activity/street life downtown is trying to generate is a chicken or egg thing. 

 

I can remember quite a few cool little shops not just in downtown but also in certain urban neighborhoods. Anyone remember there was an upscale clothing storefront when E. 4th first opened? Didn't last long. Most open and close due to lack of foot traffic. No customers. 

 

On the other hand people will say there isn't a good reason to stroll because there aren't any little stores or places to stop in. 

 

I'm not comparing Cleveland to Nantucket but one of the reasons l love walking around there is the great stores you walk by. 

 

So which comes first; customers or shops, shops or customers? Both?

6 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

I thought they were more about the physical infrastructure side of the equation. Which we need improvements for sure. But we surely need some kind of programming & coordination body to herd these cats. 

 

Ah, I misunderstood your point. If the new NCDC doesn't take on this kind of work as well, hopefully they at least work hand-in-hand with the DCA, who seemingly are already doing their thing in this area from @urbanetics_ post

I think we need more beaches, or at least fewer car-dependent ones

 

 

^ Because in a city struggling to grow its population, when we accidentally create something that is extraordinarily popular the right thing to do is shut it down?

3 hours ago, cadmen said:

^ Because in a city struggling to grow its population, when we accidentally create something that is extraordinarily popular the right thing to do is shut it down?

 

This scenario was entirely predictable. The Shoreway becoming a true boulevard would've helped prevent this by vastly improving street access to the Park - with more sidewalks and more on-street parking via the south. Yes the train tracks are a huge barrier, that won't change anytime soon unfortunately. But today there isn't really any street grid approach to the park, plus no reliable transit and so we'll just have the same bottleneck situation there.  

Lakefront survey - deadline tomorrow 

 

 

lol this is some example of "public engagement". Throw a largely pointless survey up in a tweet for 48 hours... (call for a paper copy!)  

 

I am guessing they are just looking to cherry-pick some survey results to justify whatever they end up doing.  I, for one, demand that the lakefront "Inspires Hope and Healing for All"  

Wow that was silly, but I put in my opinion.

You wonder who's writing this stuff.....but I took it too

6 hours ago, CleveFan said:

You wonder who's writing this stuff.....but I took it too

Me too! Wonder if my Philly zip code will give my survey input more cache. 😏

I took it and picked choice 2, it's the only logical choice remaining.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

1 hour ago, DO_Summers said:

Me too! Wonder if my Philly zip code will give my survey input more cache. 😏

I like what Philly has done with their waterfront.  Philly has a very similar situation in that a highway separates the waterfront from downtown.  Perhaps Mayor Biibb and his entourage can take a trip to Philly sometime to check it out.

18 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I like what Philly has done with their waterfront.  Philly has a very similar situation in that a highway separates the waterfront from downtown.  Perhaps Mayor Biibb and his entourage can take a trip to Philly sometime to check it out.

🤔...   they do like to travel...

I would like to see the Shoreway simply merge into Lakeside at W. 6th and be completely eliminated along the lakefront from W. 6th to where it merges into 90.  I would also like the West Shoreway to be a real boulevard like they intended it to be when they re built it several years ago.  Then Clifton/Lakeside would be another Detroit/Superior type street.  I don't think this would be a major inconvenience for anyone.  West siders could still get downtown like they always have, and those going from the west-side to the east-side and vice versa (and really, who's doing that more than twice a year! HA!) have plenty of other highway options.  This would uncomplicate things a lot and make the entire redevelopment scenario cheaper.

Any Shoreway conversion plan needs to also factor in the Main Ave bridge as it is nearing the end of its lifespan.  Should it be rebuilt?  Should it be eliminated?   

 

Edited June 15, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd

The Landbridge is sexy and all, and it would be really iconic.  BUT, I honestly think if we just reintroduce the street grid, develop the blue areas with real streetscapes and sidewalks, throw in a park and a lakefront promenade, it would be pretty great.  Bridges over the train tracks aren't so bad if we shorten the distance by eliminating the Shoreway and create development on both sides worth going to.  I don't know if this inspires "hope and healing for all", but it does reconnect downtown to the lakefront, provides equal access to pedestrians and cars, makes the lakefront more palatable to developers and is really, really achievable.

22 minutes ago, Dino said:

The Landbridge is sexy and all, and it would be really iconic.  BUT, I honestly think if we just reintroduce the street grid, develop the blue areas with real streetscapes and sidewalks, throw in a park and a lakefront promenade, it would be pretty great.  Bridges over the train tracks aren't so bad if we shorten the distance by eliminating the Shoreway and create development on both sides worth going to.  I don't know if this inspires "hope and healing for all", but it does reconnect downtown to the lakefront, provides equal access to pedestrians and cars, makes the lakefront more palatable to developers and is really, really achievable.

Reasonable and nice idea.  I'd add a walking path from Burke to the Flats and Edgewater Park.

Just now, OldEnough said:

Reasonable and nice idea.  I'd add a walking path from Burke to the Flats and Edgewater Park.

I would take this one step further and add a walking/bike path around the outer edge of Burke along the water's edge. 

Add another east-west street immediately north of the tracks. It would probably have to be at a higher elevation to account for the street bridges over the tracks. That would send the noise from the trains upward rather than outward, making things quieter for neighboring developments.

RR Hall of Fame expansion approved. https://www.wkyc.com/article/entertainment/music/rock-hall/cleveland-planning-commission-approves-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-100-million-expansion-plan/95-445746fc-ae57-48b4-ae17-1131cd9667be

47 minutes ago, simplythis said:

RR Hall of Fame expansion approved. https://www.wkyc.com/article/entertainment/music/rock-hall/cleveland-planning-commission-approves-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-100-million-expansion-plan/95-445746fc-ae57-48b4-ae17-1131cd9667be

I hate this so much. A complete bastardization of the iconic original structure. It’s absolute trash. 

The activation of the lakefront space they occupy is the best part of this renovation imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know some people don't like the design for one reason or another but I think we can all agree that it's wonderful news to see one of the most iconic Cleveland tourist attractions continue to grow and get invested in. That's what we need around here.

20 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

I know some people don't like the design for one reason or another but I think we can all agree that it's wonderful news to see one of the most iconic Cleveland tourist attractions continue to grow and get invested in. That's what we need around here.

Agree 100%. 

I do hope the city of Cleveland adds to this investment with improving the streetscape around the Rock Hall.    Something needs to be done about that intersection with the stop signs, which on busy days becomes super hazardous for pedestrians and vehicles alike.  

17 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Agree 100%. 

I do hope the city of Cleveland adds to this investment with improving the streetscape around the Rock Hall.    Something needs to be done about that intersection with the stop signs, which on busy days becomes super hazardous for pedestrians and vehicles alike.  

 

That's probably going to be the new location of the Shoreway boulevard.

On 6/15/2023 at 8:17 AM, Dino said:

The Landbridge is sexy and all, and it would be really iconic.  BUT, I honestly think if we just reintroduce the street grid, develop the blue areas with real streetscapes and sidewalks, throw in a park and a lakefront promenade, it would be pretty great.  Bridges over the train tracks aren't so bad if we shorten the distance by eliminating the Shoreway and create development on both sides worth going to.  I don't know if this inspires "hope and healing for all", but it does reconnect downtown to the lakefront, provides equal access to pedestrians and cars, makes the lakefront more palatable to developers and is really, really achievable.

 

Nice! Can you do one for Edgewater Park? 

8 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

The activation of the lakefront space they occupy is the best part of this renovation imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I still need to see more of what they plan for where the structure & property actually meet the water. The fact they don't seem to be focusing on it should cause some concern. 

16 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

I still need to see more of what they plan for where the structure & property actually meet the water. The fact they don't seem to be focusing on it should cause some concern. 

And also how it relates to the proposed land bridge.

Also as a consolation for people who hate the design— it’s an addition, not a subtraction. The original structure is preserved even if it’s partly obscured. If the new addition doesn’t age well, I would be willing to bet it won’t be here in 50 years. So it’s not like the destruction of Millionaire’s Row homes where they’re forever lost to time. The main building is still there, and it can always in theory be restored to current appearance.

Personally, I believe this addition has a lot to be commended and fits the site pretty darn well.  IMO, it's not that the present building is some sort generational masterpiece that must be preserved at all costs 🗼. 

 

At the risk of rehashing a likely old debate, for those unhappy with the design, what other concepts would you nominate?  (Mods, please delete if this is an unnecessary conversation). 

I'm not crazy about the original structure being obscured, but I'm all in favor of expansion (And having ALL induction ceremonies in Cleveland). This design isn't bad, though. 

I'm not crazy about the original structure being obscured, but I'm all in favor of expansion (And having ALL induction ceremonies in Cleveland). This design isn't bad, though. 

Not gonna lie. The Rock hall architect is world renowned but the actual rock hall design isn’t his best work. It has aged okay but it isn’t the most timeless design imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^ I’m one of those who thought that, by and large, IM Pei stole a living. I think the Rock Hall is one of his better efforts. This addition is fine too. 

So here's two problems....  This is the proposed design of the East 18th Street extension. The first problem is the inclusion of ramps to/from the surely to be lightly used port access road (unless Greyhound can use it to access an intermodal center for which it has shown little interest). The placement of this ramp prevents any redevelopment of the municipal parking lots at this location unless vehicular access comes from the proposed new boulevard. But what about pedestrian access into downtown?

 

Second problem.... Look at how the city of Cleveland and ODOT have proposed the extension of East 18th Street as part of the conversion of the Shoreway to a boulevard. It would wipe out the west half of the ex-East 26th Street Yard site that would be needed for a build-out of the Amtrak ConnectsUS vision. That vision not only includes new trains originating and terminating in Cleveland to/from Columbus and Cincinnati but also to/from Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh/New York City and Buffalo/New York City. Ironically, the project sponsors would have to acquire Amtrak property to do this (Amtrak is a dba for the National Railroad Passenger Corp.). Although Amtrak is a party to the discussions of the North Coast Connector/land bridge, I wonder if they're aware of this? Wouldn't it be ironic if Amtrak gets a cool new station for Cleveland from the lakefront redevelopment but loses one of the few places to store/service trains for that cool new station from that very same redevelopment?

 

Here's the proposed East 18th ramp, which is needed to divert traffic from the East 9th intersection when the Shoreway is converted into a boulevard. The ramp is needed so East 18th can gradually descend from an approximate roadway surface height of about 640-645 feet above sea level over Norfolk Southern (the two southernmost tracks) down to about 585 feet. -- the current elevation of the Shoreway.

 

Amtrak's property is shown below. Amtrak bought this land in 1979 as a back-up for a station site in case the the city land on which their existing station occupies rent-free is suddenly taken from them for city needs. I'm assuming that the real estate people at Amtrak are talking to the development and government affairs people at Amtrak, so that the Amtrak-owned property isn't thoughtlessly discarded for this roadway ramp. But I can't assume this, so I contacted an old friend there.

 

This is how Amtrak and the State of Ohio had intended to use the East 26th Street Yard for the several daily trains between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. More tracks and facilities would be needed to accommodate additional trains to Detroit, Chicago and the East Coast. 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

So here's two problems....  This is the proposed design of the East 18th Street extension. The first problem is the inclusion of ramps to/from the surely to be lightly used port access road (unless Greyhound can use it to access an intermodal center for which it has shown little interest). The placement of this ramp prevents any redevelopment of the municipal parking lots at this location unless vehicular access comes from the proposed new boulevard. But what about pedestrian access into downtown?

 

Second problem.... Look at how the city of Cleveland and ODOT have proposed the extension of East 18th Street as part of the conversion of the Shoreway to a boulevard. It would wipe out the west half of the ex-East 26th Street Yard site that would be needed for a build-out of the Amtrak ConnectsUS vision. That vision not only includes new trains originating and terminating in Cleveland to/from Columbus and Cincinnati but also to/from Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh/New York City and Buffalo/New York City. Ironically, the project sponsors would have to acquire Amtrak property to do this (Amtrak is a dba for the National Railroad Passenger Corp.). Although Amtrak is a party to the discussions of the North Coast Connector/land bridge, I wonder if they're aware of this? Wouldn't it be ironic if Amtrak gets a cool new station for Cleveland from the lakefront redevelopment but loses one of the few places to store/service trains for that cool new station from that very same redevelopment?

 

Here's the proposed East 18th ramp, which is needed to divert traffic from the East 9th intersection when the Shoreway is converted into a boulevard. The ramp is needed so East 18th can gradually descend from an approximate roadway surface height of about 640-645 feet above sea level over Norfolk Southern (the two southernmost tracks) down to about 585 feet. -- the current elevation of the Shoreway.

 

Why is the "E. 18th" extension crossing the tracks so far to the east of E.18th?  and do we really need so many lanes onto E. 18th? 

 

If you were looking to design first for pedestrians, then cyclists, then cars (or someone looking to build the "15-minute city" this should look ridiculous.  This is not the best we can do to bring the lakefront closer to the people.

My understanding of the plan is that E18th is designed to reduce car traffic running down the new boulevard. That's also why it jogs so far East, it allows the exit ramp to function as a joint exit for E18 and the new boulevard. (Straight through the light to E18, or right onto the new boulevard). 

 

I understand that people on this forum probably aren't happy with that line of thinking, but I think reducing car traffic for the main section of this boulevard will help make it more pedestrian friendly between E9 and W3, which is the important section. It's a pragmatic approach. 

4 hours ago, Ethan said:

It's a pragmatic approach. 

I disagree but let's compromise -- send the WFL down E18 to form a downtown loop.

 

18 hours ago, Ethan said:

My understanding of the plan is that E18th is designed to reduce car traffic running down the new boulevard.

 

I understand that people on this forum probably aren't happy with that line of thinking, but I think reducing car traffic for the main section of this boulevard will help make it more pedestrian friendly between E9 and W3

 

If we want less cars on the new boulevard maybe it shouldn’t be 6-8 lanes wide. Building more and bigger roads doesn’t necessarily reduce traffic.

1 hour ago, sonisharri said:

 

If we want less cars on the new boulevard maybe it shouldn’t be 6-8 lanes wide. Building more and bigger roads doesn’t necessarily reduce traffic.

It's proposed to be four lanes after E9. 

@KJP Where did you source the ODOT proposal for East 18th ramp? I'm interested in seeing the rest of the plans. I wonder, is the grade difference too much to do something like Dino illustrated above, with multiple, straight ramps down to the new boulevard from Lakeside. Multiple access points with intersections seems like the best setup for managing traffic and to maximize the development of land there.