8 hours ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

Edgewater is frequently shut down and people have to park in the grass. The people are showing there is more demand for a beach/lakefront park in Cleveland than we currently offer 

This is more a transportation problem than space in the park.  

On 7/27/2023 at 10:04 PM, marty15 said:

It’s not exactly “coastal engineering” at this location. It’s a pretty controlled environment inside the breakwall. No need to be dramatic.

Other than it's dredged to 20 feet at the waters edge there and there is a 29' shipping channel just beyond that.  

 

I think any beach would have to be some super-artificial "shelf" in off the harbor. 

 

And then there's the harbor.   If you think Edgewater is bad, you wouldn't want to swim inside the breakwall, especially after storms. 

* there are actual beaches in and around  town that could use the TLC 

Edited July 30, 20231 yr by surfohio

4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Other than it's dredged to 20 feet at the waters edge there and there is a 29' shipping channel just beyond that.  

 

I think any beach would have to be some super-artificial "shelf" in off the harbor. 

 

And then there's the harbor.   If you think Edgewater is bad, you wouldn't want to swim inside the breakwall, especially after storms. 

I don’t think anyone is saying this is a beach you bring your surf board to.  It’ll be a place to catch some sun and cool off. That dredged waters edge can easily be filled. Why do people think this is such an impossibility? Detroit put a beach in their downtown not even on the water. And it’s quite popular. Good grief 

 

how could it 'easily be filled? I think the water is kept at that depth because of the active port right next to it

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

This is more a transportation problem than space in the park.  

Running an hourly RTA trolley bus on a downtown loop to Edgewater in the summer is an absolute no-brainer. 

2 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

how could it 'easily be filled? I think the water is kept at that depth because of the active port right next to it

Everything up to that point has been filled. Everything there is fill.  If they didn’t dredge it, what would be there? This isn’t splitting the atom.

4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

This is more a transportation problem than space in the park.  

Agreed, however the bike box there also gets overflowed and runs out space as well

37 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Everything up to that point has been filled. Everything there is fill.  If they didn’t dredge it, what would be there? This isn’t splitting the atom.

It is, however a navigable waterway with a channel maintained by the Army Corps of Engineer.    

 

My point is you couldn't put the beach where the current port retaining wall is north of the stadium.,  It's 20' deep right at that wall.   If you did, in order to walk in the water they would have to slope the land down under the water out near the  channel.  

 

The way to over come this is to dig inland and let the water fill in to a beach on a "shelf".   

 

Cleveland’s lakefront: through the Years

By NEOtrans / July 30, 2023

 

Welcome to the latest video from NEOtrans. Today, let’s talk about downtown Cleveland’s lakefront. And that’s certainly something that people like to talk about – especially the many plans for improving the place where downtown meets Lake Erie. Unfortunately, most of those plans over the past 100 years have ended up gathering dust on a shelf rather than getting built. But some of them have been constructed and more of them are going to appear on the landscape someday. The question is, what will they be?

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/07/30/clevelands-lakefront-through-the-years/

 

Great narration. @KJP Ken! You are sounding more and more like a longtime pro! 

 

It's a lot of information to squeeze into a short video.   Maybe next video, you can apply Ken Burn's trick to slowly zoom into the still photos/maps to connect your voice to the image.

 

PS, Hey! No mention of the Jetport?  😏

Thanks, but we're working with a video production company in Ukraine. They speak a little English. So I'll take whatever voice-video synchronization I can get. 😁

12 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Other than it's dredged to 20 feet at the waters edge there and there is a 29' shipping channel just beyond that.  

 

I think any beach would have to be some super-artificial "shelf" in off the harbor. 

 

And then there's the harbor.   If you think Edgewater is bad, you wouldn't want to swim inside the breakwall, especially after storms. 

We looked out from the Music Box on a couple of big patches of floating debris in the river and harbor Friday night. The SIHS crew team coach said it happens after every big rain. 

 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Thanks, but we're working with a video production company in Ukraine. They speak a little English. So I'll take whatever voice-video synchronization I can get. 😁

Ah,  I understand.  Kudos for finding yet another way to support Ukraine. 

8 hours ago, Cleburger said:

It is, however a navigable waterway with a channel maintained by the Army Corps of Engineer.    

 

My point is you couldn't put the beach where the current port retaining wall is north of the stadium.,  It's 20' deep right at that wall.   If you did, in order to walk in the water they would have to slope the land down under the water out near the  channel.  

 

The way to over come this is to dig inland and let the water fill in to a beach on a "shelf".   

There’s obviously a lot of work that’ll need to be done to accommodate a beach. You guys are acting like they’re just gonna throw sand down and viola. Well  obviously that’s unworkable. 

 

Just extending the east and west walls would help accommodate things. What I’m saying is, there’s ways. 

^ Marty you're killing me lol. Your entire point sounded to me like this would be easy and that all we needed was some sand, and that my mere mention of coastal engineering was "dramatic." 

Edited July 30, 20231 yr by surfohio

We went to the moon in 1969.

The atomic bomb was finished in 1945.

The Hoover Dam was completed in 1936.

The Brooklyn Bridge was completed in 1883.

The Great Pyramids were built 4500 years ago.

It's 2023. They can make a GD beach there.

There is a survey link for input but it's pretty pathetic. Basically allows for nothing substantive for input, but somehow has an odd question about "porch" structures.
 
 https://clevelandnorthcoast.com/north-coast-master-plan/
 
I also listened to the workshop discussion linked to Youtube and it didn't give me an overall great impression. A lot of niceties but not enough substance. I'm afraid if this does move forward it won't be done with proper synergy and will be like a "silver bullet" project from the 90's that won't get developer support to pull it off correctly. Basically a nice park in front of the stadium that nobody uses after the novelty wears off. 

Yeah that was an extremely basic survey. I used the space reserved for typing to input other ideas I have for the lakefront.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

31 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Yeah that was an extremely basic survey. I used the space reserved for typing to input other ideas I have for the lakefront.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

Thanks for the idea, friend! I slammed both input boxes with my amusement park agenda!

53 minutes ago, Silent Matt said:

 

The Great Pyramids were built 4500 years ago.

It's 2023. They can make a GD beach there.

Well, I'm willing to bet that Atlantis once had a beach too.  Just saying....🤔

Yeah that survey hardly seems worth filling out... To their credit though, it does seem like they really took into account feedback from the previous listening sessions and surveys. Several of the things I've seen complained about on this site seem to have likely come directly from community feedback. Most notably the more public centered approach (less housing focused), but also things like the beach, and the hard courts. 

 

Personally, I'm included to see the wisdom in the crowd. Take the basketball courts for instance. People are dunking on that idea, but I'm not aware of any (publicly accessible) basketball courts downtown. (This despite downtown apparently being oversaturated with parks \s ). Even from a visitor's perspective one of the things that makes urban parks nice is that they are used by the locals. A few hard courts should help with that, and it can only accelerate downtown's growth. 

 

Similarly for the beach, while I'm not much of a beach person myself, and I'm sympathetic to the engineering challenges argument being advanced by others, I still think it's a good idea. People want it. They like to be close to the water, and nothing feels closer to the water (for some people anyway) than a beach. Again, this is an amenity that will help sell downtown to prospective residents who might be on the fence. It can only help accelerate downtown's growth. 

According to the NOAA charts the water depth at the proposed beach area is 25 feet with an immediate drop-off from the shoreline. I assume that was done so for ship docking.

https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=14839

 

Even if the beach is technically possible it seems like a foolish waste of resources to pursue and maintain over time IMO. Not to mention the water in that channel is often cloudy from silt and would not be the most appealing thing to swim in.

 

Edit - looks like Cleburger beat me to it with these comments.

 

Edited July 30, 20231 yr by Rustbelter

15 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

According to the NOAA charts the water depth at the proposed beach area is 25 feet with an immediate drop-off from the shoreline. I assume that was done so for ship docking.

https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=14839

 

Even if the beach is technically possible it seems like a foolish waste of resources to pursue and maintain over time IMO. Not to mention the water in that channel is often cloudy from silt and would not be the most appealing thing to swim in.

 

Edit - looks like Cleburger beat me to it with these comments.

 

With a blank check it would be epic to turn the harbor breakwall into a more natural, partially exposed natural looking reef. This would be better for wetland restoration, habitat and the increased flow vastly improves water quality - not just for inner harbor but for the rest of Lake Erie. For that we would first need some new kind of engineering concept because the current practice of relocating dredge material within rocks just creates that dangerous steep dropoff issue: see NCH, Dyke 14, etc. 

 

So we all want real beaches and imho getting rid of the breakwall as-is would be the necessary start.

 

A key issue however is sand. All this regrettable construction and destruction along the waters edge in Ohio has ruined the natural movement and accumulation of sand aka "littoral drift." Figuring this out is a difficult puzzle to solve even in places with far less-overdeveloped coastlines. Ohio is still doing really dumb things to exacerbate erosion, so in reality a large percentage of the actual beaches here are in danger of disappearing. Not good. 

 

Then again we have a blank check so we could maybe just buy all of Michigan's sand. 

5 hours ago, surfohio said:

Then again we have a blank check so we could maybe just buy all of Michigan's sand. 

Hi @surfohioIs mentioning "meat-chicken" A VIOLATION of UO rules?   https://www.history.com/news/the-toledo-war-when-michigan-and-ohio-nearly-came-to-blows

 

Maybe we are friends now and I missed the memo? 

Edited July 31, 20231 yr by DO_Summers

On 7/29/2023 at 1:59 PM, BoomerangCleRes said:

we’ve been trying to get something around the browns stadium for so long but yet some how a smaller league like the mls that makes 56x less in revenue than the nfl has no problem building/planning these sports village developments in no time not to mention two in our own state. 
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/07/28/fc-cincinnatis-stadium-area-development-to-include-music-venue/70488337007/

 

Think of Browns stadium as a gigantic hollow space in your city for all but10 days a year, which, by contract or market forces, needs to be surrounded by just tons and tons parking.

Edited August 1, 20231 yr by StapHanger

3 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

With a blank check it would be epic to turn the harbor breakwall into a more natural, partially exposed natural looking reef. This would be better for wetland restoration, habitat and the increased flow vastly improves water quality - not just for inner harbor but for the rest of Lake Erie. For that we would first need some new kind of engineering concept because the current practice of relocating dredge material within rocks just creates that dangerous steep dropoff issue: see NCH, Dyke 14, etc. 

 

So we all want real beaches and imho getting rid of the breakwall as-is would be the necessary start.

 

A key issue however is sand. All this regrettable construction and destruction along the waters edge in Ohio has ruined the natural movement and accumulation of sand aka "littoral drift." Figuring this out is a difficult puzzle to solve even in places with far less-overdeveloped coastlines. Ohio is still doing really dumb things to exacerbate erosion, so in reality a large percentage of the actual beaches here are in danger of disappearing. Not good. 

 

Then again we have a blank check so we could maybe just buy all of Michigan's sand. 

How many natural beaches ever existed on the south shore of Lake Erie?  My understanding is that it was naturally mostly cliff along the shorelines.

My understanding is that the ridges south of the lake (Johnnycake, Butternut, Center Ridge etc al) are the remnants of old beaches that existed for a time since the last glaciation.

50 minutes ago, X said:

How many natural beaches ever existed on the south shore of Lake Erie?  My understanding is that it was naturally mostly cliff along the shorelines.

Mentor, Ashtabula, Conneaut and Erie all have large, great beaches. 

1 hour ago, X said:

How many natural beaches ever existed on the south shore of Lake Erie?  My understanding is that it was naturally mostly cliff along the shorelines.

 

My guess would be that before development came along the beaches were fairly large at the base of the cliffs. You can see similarity in cliffy places like Geneva on the Lake where development came more recently and far less dramatically than around Cleveland.

 

Unfortunately with bad management the end result is not a good one. 

 

Then:

 

Now:

Edited July 31, 20231 yr by surfohio

Thanks for the idea, friend! I slammed both input boxes with my amusement park agenda!

No problem at all! I'm here to help lol (I also want a Ferris wheel down there badly lol).

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Northcoast harbor news. https://www.wkyc.com/article/tech/science/environment/access-after-decades-of-stalled-plans-northeast-ohio-lakefront-development/95-51142f5c-e0e5-47bd-b504-8d0038605123

There are definitely problems with the "cliffy" areas that are close to Lake Erie. I understand part of Lake Road, S.R. 531, is closed between Ashtabula and Conneaut due to erosion. There was an interesting show on PBS in the 80s called "On Shifting Sands" which chronicled the issues of the Lake Erie currents displacing the beach sands on Presque Isle in Erie. I don't think this would be the issue at the beach site north of the stadium though. I think the issue there will be water quality and the nearby deep ports. 

See, it is possible to have swimming off the lakefront, just see what happens in Chicago. No beach needed. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvP2-7Xg1NM/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

23 minutes ago, scg80 said:

See, it is possible to have swimming off the lakefront, just see what happens in Chicago. No beach needed. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvP2-7Xg1NM/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

A neighbor of mine just told me he goes to this and I had no idea it happens. Might need to try it, looks fun

On 7/31/2023 at 5:35 PM, simplythis said:

Northcoast harbor news. https://www.wkyc.com/article/tech/science/environment/access-after-decades-of-stalled-plans-northeast-ohio-lakefront-development/95-51142f5c-e0e5-47bd-b504-8d0038605123

 

Just a note on this...once you armor the shoreline you are essentially trading away beaches for a long long time. Erosion is the natural process that replenishes beaches and Ohio is the textbook example where  overdevelopment has killed this process.  Building in too-close proximity to the water has created a "problem" that, with more insightful planning, should never have been be a problem at all.  

29 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Just a note on this...once you armor the shoreline you are essentially trading away beaches for a long long time. Erosion is the natural process that replenishes beaches and Ohio is the textbook example where  overdevelopment has killed this process.  Building in too-close proximity to the water has created a "problem" that, with more insightful planning, should never have been be a problem at all.  

 

Many complaints among the neo-virtuous about how the lake is "underutilized", as if leisure areas are better than neighborhoods.  Take a look at Canada, they hardly use it at all.

 

Directly across from us:

 

Leisure areas - or any public space - are objectively better than neighborhoods when it comes to more desirable geographies like the lakefront.  

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Many complaints among the neo-virtuous about how the lake is "underutilized", as if leisure areas are better than neighborhoods.  Take a look at Canada, they hardly use it at all.

 

Directly across from us:

 

Maybe the few farmers of Coatsworth aren’t big water people. Pretty terrible cherry pick @E Rocc

51 minutes ago, Henke said:

Leisure areas - or any public space - are objectively better than neighborhoods when it comes to more desirable geographies like the lakefront.  

 

That's subjective. 

one of the most dramatic examples of this erosion occurred at Painesville Township Park. The first photo shows the beach in the 1930's (but what's that weird thing going on in the center near the lifeguard station with the woman sort of somersaulting over and between two men? 😅). By my era in the 60's the beach was just a very narrow strip of rocky sand probably no more than five feet wide. Arguably this park is probably a lot nicer now with more amenities and always in the process of being upgraded (that great fishing pier the most notable example), but as you can see in the second pic the beach is entirely gone, the shoreline reinforced by a sort of retaining wall affair (if that's the correct term) to prevent further erosion--

 

 

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Many complaints among the neo-virtuous about how the lake is "underutilized", as if leisure areas are better than neighborhoods.  Take a look at Canada, they hardly use it at all.

 

Directly across from us:

 

 

This thread is going to get shut down but I'll pile on against better judgement. Don't you live in Collinwood? One of the few areas of the city that has ample (and a ton of private) lake access? All the beach "clubs" are busy all summer long I'm sure. Allowing the public to have more access to an amazing inland sea is only right. Condos/neighborhoods don't belong everywhere. There are like 5 bars/restaurants on the lakefront in the county, in the city? We have the metroparks and private marinas. I always talk with my urbanist friends about how it sucks that there are so few access points to the lake within city limits (that aren't Collinwood or Edgewater). The 55th/72nd Marinas are bumping in the summers, likewise E9 Pier is nuts with people on summer nights. It'd be nice if these spaces weren't just big parking lots with very little lake access - more like here! watch the sunset from your car at 55/72.

 

As for Canada, I've biked around the lake- there are fishing towns/ports spit here and there along the lake but the vast majority reminds me of where I grew up in WNY - fields and more fields. The largest city you come across on the Canadian side is maybe Port Colborne, otherwise its a ton of small areas and cottage communities. It's prime agricultural land - just look at land use on Canada's Pelee Island vs the US islands. They also don't build their roads up to the lake that often because they understand erosion is a real problem (disappointing when the goal of your bike trip is to see the lake). If anyone wants to read my musings while on the bike, have at it: https://dgutl.blogspot.com/2014/05/first-post.html (it looks like crap on mobile btw).

^^ Wow that's a stark difference. Unfortunately I fear the story of the lakefront has largely been written because of such bad management. At least as far as beaches and public access to the actual water goes.

 

One silver lining in the NCH plan is the realization that there is value in getting back what we've lost in some capacity. 

One thing I come back to is that Cleveland has a unique opportunity to capitalize because public lake access in Ohio is pitiful and Cleveland it seems to have the most public land that can be made available to "the people" in fun and innovative ways. My first reaction to the city plan was to be underwhelmed, but I am now persuaded about the importance of prioritizing public access over development.

Lakefront CHEERS project ready to seek construction grants with improved design for offshore ‘isle’
https://www-cleveland-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.cleveland.com/news/2023/08/lakefront-cheers-project-ready-to-pursue-construction-grants-with-improved-offshore-isle-design.html?outputType=amp

 

 

And the Saudis are building a 105-mile-long vertical city that will be open for residents in 6 years.

 

Just give us something, anything, in our lifetimes. Please city/county/leadership/developer gods.

While I don't think the revised plan looks as good from a bird's eye view. I think it's very possible it will be a better experience at ground level. I particularly like the added width north of the marina. The island not being a true island is a bit of a mixed bag. I think I prefer the beefier island from the original design, but hopefully the slightly smaller version means it can get finished sooner. 

 

New:

 

Old:

46 minutes ago, Ethan said:

While I don't think the revised plan looks as good from a bird's eye view.

 

@EthanThe aquamarine water in the shallows of the cove and the bay is a neat trick.   Maybe they got one of our local industries to promise a 50 year supply of dye.        (Just kidding) 

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

New:

 

Seems like an awfully large amount of surface parking 

I'll be happy with either one really. A highlight for me is a convoluted shoreline. I hate all the right angles off of downtown. Build me something like the Toronto islands. We have to dredge the river forever anyway. Might as well get creative with the new land. 

 

Ah well...a fella can dream can't he?

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

I'll be happy with either one really. A highlight for me is a convoluted shoreline. I hate all the right angles off of downtown. Build me something like the Toronto islands. We have to dredge the river forever anyway. Might as well get creative with the new land. 

 

Ah well...a fella can dream can't he?

 

As a kid, one of my favorite locations to visit when were in Canada was Ontario Place.  I know that this is a very different type of development, but with the coves, bridges, skyline view, etc, it was memorably beautiful.  I think that the new design has a better chance at giving us that same type of feeling.