February 21, 20241 yr 11 minutes ago, surfohio said: The loss of beaches has been most detrimental thing from my perspective. I don't think the mills were involved in that loss, since the mills date back a long time and the sand loss is comparatively recent. It's more so because of overdevelopment right up to the waters edge along with some really shortsighted erosion control measures. These continue today. I'm referring more to the industrial nature of the lakeshore making the mills more competitive.
February 21, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, surfohio said: The loss of beaches has been most detrimental thing from my perspective. I don't think the mills were involved in that loss, since the mills date back a long time and the sand loss is comparatively recent. It's more so because of overdevelopment right up to the waters edge along with some really shortsighted erosion control measures. These continue today. Sorry to go onto a tangent, but back in the 80's, PBS ran a great program "On Shifting Sands" about the constant change happening on Presque Isle. It provides a good understanding about the movement of sand in the Lake Erie currents.
February 21, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, TMart said: Sorry to go onto a tangent, but back in the 80's, PBS ran a great program "On Shifting Sands" about the constant change happening on Presque Isle. It provides a good understanding about the movement of sand in the Lake Erie currents. They constructed these mini break walls many years ago, all along the western facing side of Presque isle to calm the erosion causing crashing waves. Used to swim out to em in my 20’s when I lived there. They’ve worked great.
February 22, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, E Rocc said: I'm referring more to the industrial nature of the lakeshore making the mills more competitive. The steel industry in Cleveland from the beginning has always been in the Flats upriver and it’s iron ore was delivered upriver to them, the coal/coke arrived via rail; the lakefront ore docks delivered ore to mills in the Mahoning & Western PA districts. Our steel industry here had very little of nothing to do with our lakefront.
February 22, 20241 yr 16 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said: The steel industry in Cleveland from the beginning has always been in the Flats upriver and it’s iron ore was delivered upriver to them, the coal/coke arrived via rail; the lakefront ore docks delivered ore to mills in the Mahoning & Western PA districts. Our steel industry here had very little of nothing to do with our lakefront. Not true. Not only were the ore docks established along the lakefront to feed steel mills from Cleveland to as far away as Johnstown, PA, one of Cleveland’s oldest iron and steel works was built on the lake. Otis Steel Co.'s Lakeside Plant, later acquired by Jones & Laughlin (LTV), operated between East 26th Street and East 33rd Street north of the New York Central Railroad tracks along with several related companies. The plant closed in the early 1950s as J&L expanded its operations in the Flats. The lakeside plant was demolished for the Inner Belt's interchange with the Shoreway. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 20241 yr 25 minutes ago, KJP said: Not true. Not only were the ore docks established along the lakefront to feed steel mills from Cleveland to as far away as Johnstown, PA, one of Cleveland’s oldest iron and steel works was built on the lake. Otis Steel Co.'s Lakeside Plant, later acquired by Jones & Laughlin (LTV), operated between East 26th Street and East 33rd Street north of the New York Central Railroad tracks along with several related companies. The plant closed in the early 1950s as J&L expanded its operations in the Flats. The lakeside plant was demolished for the Inner Belt's interchange with the Shoreway. Yes, that’s correct and I neglected to remember the original Otis plant; but my point stands that the vast majority of Cleveland’s steel “mills” as Erocc mentioned weren’t served by our lakefront. The Whiskey Island PRR docks served Ytown and PA, the Erie RR Nypano docks went east, all the rest of our steel industry was upriver and not dependent on the lakefront.
February 22, 20241 yr My intent was to dispel the notion that our “industrialized” lakefront was inseparable from our steel industry heritage; that’s not true.
February 22, 20241 yr 4 hours ago, E Rocc said: I'm referring more to the industrial nature of the lakeshore making the mills more competitive. Gotcha. I guess my main point was that even with the high degree of industrialization we still had Edgewater Park and Euclid Beach Park as crown jewels before they fell to ruin. Edgewater has been stunningly revitalized and it's fairly protected inside a bay, but most all the other area beaches are long gone or in desperate need.
February 22, 20241 yr 13 hours ago, CleCaneFan said: My intent was to dispel the notion that our “industrialized” lakefront was inseparable from our steel industry heritage; that’s not true. Except that it was inseparable. Everything from Edgewater Park east to near Gordon Park -- basically the entire pre-1900 city of Cleveland lakefront -- was industrialized and heavily devoted to the steel industry. Maybe not in the direct manufacture but certainly in the supply of it among the Midwest and Northeast. And the part nearest to downtown on both sides of the Cuyahoga River was devoted to the iron and steel industry. People forget that the downtown lakefront looked like this from the 1850s until the 1950s. This is 1935. The roadway bridge at left was West 9th Street and the Warehouse District was Cleveland's central business district from the 1860s to the 1910s... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 20241 yr 6 hours ago, KJP said: Except that it was inseparable. Everything from Edgewater Park east to near Gordon Park -- basically the entire pre-1900 city of Cleveland -- was industrialized and heavily devoted to the steel industry. Maybe not in the direct manufacture but certainly in the supply of it among the Midwest and Northeast. And the part nearest to downtown on both sides of the Cuyahoga River was devoted to the iron and steel industry. People forget that the downtown lakefront looked like this from the 1850s until the 1950s. This is 1935. The roadway bridge at left was West 9th Street and the Warehouse District was Cleveland's central business district from the 1860s to the 1910s... I should have specified our “steel industry heritage here in Cleveland”. All of that lakefront activity above had little to do with Otis/J&L; Corrigan-McKinney/Republic; Upson/Republic; ASW Central Furnaces all upriver. As for the Cleveland Rolling Mills in Newburgh I’m not clear where the ore came from for its iron& steel making operations, though I’d guess the lakefront. I believe it’s blast furnace shut down in the early 30’s.
February 22, 20241 yr For those other forumers following this the fantastic pic above from @KJP shows predominantly NYC and some Pennsy lines on our lakefront that were devoted primarily to the outbound shipment of coal to Canada and the upper Great Lakes. The structures on the piers were likely McMyler (based in Bedford!)car dumpers that could lift an entire rail car of coal up and dump it into a chute that extended into the hold of a lake vessel below. These dumpers were prevalent in Lake Erie port cities and elsewhere until the advent of more automated conveyor-oriented loaders.
February 22, 20241 yr Downtown docks handled outbound coal, inbound ore, so there's no empty backhauls. It's cool having a discussion with someone as informed about history as you @CleCaneFan. Thanks. As we redevelop our lakefront for a post-industrial Cleveland, it's important to know what came before not only for environmental cleanup reasons, but just to understand who and what Cleveland is/was. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 22, 20241 yr Forgive me for cluttering this topic up with history (if there’s a forum discussion elsewhere that focuses on this I’ll head there) but to the best of my knowledge all of the taconite inbound to Whiskey Island arrives via 1000’ lakers and is then trans loaded to shorter river-class vessels for the trip upriver to Cliffs’ BF’s; @KJP does any taconite leave WI via rail anymore? Other than Edgar Thomson in Pittsburgh which is supplied via the Bessemer & LE from Conneaut what BF’s still exist in the legacy steel-making valleys (Warren, Steubenville and Weirton all gone now)? *One aside related to the pic above is that I believe the NYC had no ore-unloading ops in Cleveland; they had an enormous operation in Ashtabula.
February 22, 20241 yr I would discuss this in the Cleveland rail history/preservation thread in the transportation section. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 5, 20241 yr North Coast Waterfront Development Corp. names its first executive director By Ken Prendergast / March 5, 2024 Over the decades, one of the biggest barriers to developing Downtown Cleveland’s lakefront with public and private amenities was the lack of a staff dedicated to that purpose. That barrier began to come down today with the hiring of the first staff-person to lead the new North Coast Waterfront Development Corporation (NCWDC). MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/05/north-coast-waterfront-development-corp-names-its-first-executive-director/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 11, 20241 yr Adding ridership generators to the Waterfront Line By Ken Prendergast / March 11, 2024 Over the next two months, a Cleveland State University study will identify untapped lands in Downtown Cleveland along the inactive light-rail Waterfront Line and consider how to encourage their development for the benefit of the lakefront and the transit line. The findings could ultimately be incorporated into the city’s lakefront plan which has yet to be finalized. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/11/adding-ridership-generators-to-the-waterfront-line/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 12, 20241 yr Its about damn time the city and CSU's Urban Planning program are in cahoots! Good news to hear. Maybe if those students got to see their ideas come to fruition to make the city better and more urban friendly, they'd stay and help further the cause.
March 12, 20241 yr That 4th picture down from the top in Ken's excellent article really demonstrates better than any words could - just how separated from the city that the lakefront is - due to the highway and the tracks. Here's wishing city planners and all the movers and shakers that are working on bringing the city down to the lakefront every possible step in that direction.
March 19, 20241 yr Bit of a controversial bomb in this month's Metroparks agenda. They are purchasing the Ontario Stone property on Whiskey Island. From the agenda: "Cleveland Metroparks has identified the Property as an important acquisition as it provides a protection and restoration opportunity along the Cuyahoga River and will add greenspace to an area identified as an Environmental Justice area and in a disadvantaged census tract as defined by the Climate & Economic Justice Screening Tool."
March 19, 20241 yr 9 minutes ago, Ethan said: Bit of a controversial bomb in this month's Metroparks agenda. They are purchasing the Ontario Stone property on Whiskey Island. From the agenda: "Cleveland Metroparks has identified the Property as an important acquisition as it provides a protection and restoration opportunity along the Cuyahoga River and will add greenspace to an area identified as an Environmental Justice area and in a disadvantaged census tract as defined by the Climate & Economic Justice Screening Tool." I'm not sure this should be all that controversial... Connectivity here isn't great and the entire West Bank is waiting to be developed. Without the Ontario Stone Corp operating is there an opportunity to pedestrianize the lift bridge here? It's a glaring weak link in this trail.
March 19, 20241 yr Yeah I guess there goes the opportunity for a high rise mid rise or mix used development. I’ll take anything that’s public other than what’s there now
March 19, 20241 yr I like the idea. Any new high rise residential can be built on that giant parking lot next to the powerhouse.
March 19, 20241 yr 20 minutes ago, Luke_S said: I'm not sure this should be all that controversial... Connectivity here isn't great and the entire West Bank is waiting to be developed. Without the Ontario Stone Corp operating is there an opportunity to pedestrianize the lift bridge here? It's a glaring weak link in this trail. I know there have been previous posters who didn't think that a park/green space would be the best use of this land, that's why I assumed it would be controversial. I don't think anyone will disagree that this will be an improvement over the current situation though. Edit: @Luke_STo answer your other question, probably not immediately as that bridge still serves Cargill Deicing Technology.
March 19, 20241 yr 7 minutes ago, cadmen said: I like the idea. Any new high rise residential can be built on that giant parking lot next to the powerhouse. Agreed I just think this lot may have been more affordable by way making it more likely to get a significant development as opposed to exorbitantly priced West Bank parking lot (given haven’t done per acre math comparing the two properties)
March 19, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, Ethan said: Bit of a controversial bomb in this month's Metroparks agenda. They are purchasing the Ontario Stone property on Whiskey Island. From the agenda: "Cleveland Metroparks has identified the Property as an important acquisition as it provides a protection and restoration opportunity along the Cuyahoga River and will add greenspace to an area identified as an Environmental Justice area and in a disadvantaged census tract as defined by the Climate & Economic Justice Screening Tool." That site seems pretty isolated from any other businesses or housing -- it doesn't seem like a great location for development. Nice that the Metroparks purchased it to ensure a buffer to the bike path. I look forward to seeing what plans they might have for the site.
March 19, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, Foraker said: That site seems pretty isolated from any other businesses or housing -- it doesn't seem like a great location for development. Nice that the Metroparks purchased it to ensure a buffer to the bike path. I look forward to seeing what plans they might have for the site. That's what I was thinking. I'm a fan of this becoming parkland, and there are plenty of other sites along the river for development.
March 19, 20241 yr they could build a Merwin wharf type place on the water and have whiskey islanders and boaters stop there
March 20, 20241 yr 3 hours ago, Luke_S said: I'm not sure this should be all that controversial... Connectivity here isn't great and the entire West Bank is waiting to be developed. Without the Ontario Stone Corp operating is there an opportunity to pedestrianize the lift bridge here? It's a glaring weak link in this trail. I believe there are other businesses north of that branch of the river, so there will still be vehicles that need the bridge
March 21, 20241 yr Metroparks buying more Cuyahoga Riverfront land By Ken Prendergast / March 21, 2024 Adding 4.5 acres of land along the Cuyahoga River is a relatively small contribution to the 1,000 acres the Cleveland Metroparks has acquired in just the past three years. But this latest addition may be one of its most visible and strategic. The site the Metroparks wants is located in Cleveland on Whiskey Island, between the river and the park system's new Wendy Park Bridge. Interestingly, no deal has been reached with the property's current owner, Ontario Stone Corp. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/21/metroparks-buying-more-cuyahoga-riverfront-land/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 21, 20241 yr 9 minutes ago, KJP said: Metroparks buying more Cuyahoga Riverfront land By Ken Prendergast / March 21, 2024 Adding 4.5 acres of land along the Cuyahoga River is a relatively small contribution to the 1,000 acres the Cleveland Metroparks has acquired in just the past three years. But this latest addition may be one of its most visible and strategic. The site the Metroparks is acquiring is located in Cleveland on Whiskey Island, between the river and the park system’s new Wendy Park Bridge. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/21/metroparks-buying-more-cuyahoga-riverfront-land/ Great article as always! I'm curious who created the riverfront boardwalk graphic. It has the look of a Metroparks graphic, but the most logical conclusion is that the George's made it themselves. Either they did it all on their own, in conjunction with the Metroparks, or the Metroparks made it. The graphic becomes substantially more or less interesting depending on which of the three is the case.
March 21, 20241 yr On 3/19/2024 at 4:20 PM, Luke_S said: I'm not sure this should be all that controversial... Connectivity here isn't great and the entire West Bank is waiting to be developed. Without the Ontario Stone Corp operating is there an opportunity to pedestrianize the lift bridge here? It's a glaring weak link in this trail. It's been answered above, but bigger frustration is that Metroparks offered to widen the bridge/pedestrian area and the city said no (which is why it's a squeeze right now). They were actually considering putting up a 'will it fit' rack for bike tourers because it's so narrow. Also part of this - the reason there's a loop coming down off the WP bridge is because the city demanded they have access for a crane within that. Oh, and last thing, the fence and pedestrian access is so restricted around the bridge as a condition for the bike path - if there were a bunch of people using the road Ontario Stone/Cargill/city threatened to cut off access. Really awesome stuff from the previous admin.
March 21, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, GISguy said: It's been answered above, but bigger frustration is that Metroparks offered to widen the bridge/pedestrian area and the city said no (which is why it's a squeeze right now). They were actually considering putting up a 'will it fit' rack for bike tourers because it's so narrow. Also part of this - the reason there's a loop coming down off the WP bridge is because the city demanded they have access for a crane within that. Oh, and last thing, the fence and pedestrian access is so restricted around the bridge as a condition for the bike path - if there were a bunch of people using the road Ontario Stone/Cargill/city threatened to cut off access. Really awesome stuff from the previous admin. That bridge is awful. You basically have to walk your bike across and you can't ride on the roadway as you stated since the trail is fenced off.
March 21, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Ethan said: Great article as always! I'm curious who created the riverfront boardwalk graphic. It has the look of a Metroparks graphic, but the most logical conclusion is that the George's made it themselves. Either they did it all on their own, in conjunction with the Metroparks, or the Metroparks made it. The graphic becomes substantially more or less interesting depending on which of the three is the case. It appeared during the George presentation from somebody at the metroparks
March 21, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, GISguy said: It's been answered above, but bigger frustration is that Metroparks offered to widen the bridge/pedestrian area and the city said no (which is why it's a squeeze right now). They were actually considering putting up a 'will it fit' rack for bike tourers because it's so narrow. Also part of this - the reason there's a loop coming down off the WP bridge is because the city demanded they have access for a crane within that. Oh, and last thing, the fence and pedestrian access is so restricted around the bridge as a condition for the bike path - if there were a bunch of people using the road Ontario Stone/Cargill/city threatened to cut off access. Really awesome stuff from the previous admin. That’s actually crazy
March 22, 20241 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: Metroparks buying more Cuyahoga Riverfront land By Ken Prendergast / March 21, 2024 Adding 4.5 acres of land along the Cuyahoga River is a relatively small contribution to the 1,000 acres the Cleveland Metroparks has acquired in just the past three years. But this latest addition may be one of its most visible and strategic. The site the Metroparks is acquiring is located in Cleveland on Whiskey Island, between the river and the park system’s new Wendy Park Bridge. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/21/metroparks-buying-more-cuyahoga-riverfront-land/ Great article. I believe the barge nature center is going to be (and possibly already is?) at Wildwood Marina: https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/about/planning-design/planning-and-design-projects/projects/barge-225
March 22, 20241 yr Thanks. Fixed it "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 22, 20241 yr Oops. Someone forgot to tell Ontario Stone that the Metroparks is seeking state funds to buy their land! Article updated!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 22, 20241 yr Note that the port is seeking to redevelop a part of the former C&P ore docks where the Huletts once stood "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 27, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, TBideon said: If that whole area became just a park, that would be a hell of a fun day for Clevelanders 6-8 months a year. Edgewater Park 2.0. A low cost Boston Commons or Millenium Park, which would draw in people from the region, would warrant investment more than an unused albatross gifted to a criminal billionaire and her husband. It'd be about half the size of Edgewater, so nothing to scoff at. Another potential option is to add another museum of some sort to this space. We already have the Rock Hall, Science Center, the Mather, the COD, and even the Women's Air and Space museum if you keep going east. It could have a vibe similar to Chicago's museum campus (though probably with a few more active uses). Possibly a planetarium or a better aquarium. If the stadium does go, it potentially throws the current lakefront plan up in the air, and I'm conflicted by it. On one hand I don't want it to slow things down, but on the other hand a plan that optimally uses 50 acres should be better than one that optimally uses ~30 acres and then factors in the rest at a later date. Hopefully this is being considered behind the scenes and a phase two already exists.
March 27, 20241 yr 12 minutes ago, Ethan said: It'd be about half the size of Edgewater, so nothing to scoff at. Another potential option is to add another museum of some sort to this space. We already have the Rock Hall, Science Center, the Mather, the COD, and even the Women's Air and Space museum if you keep going east. It could have a vibe similar to Chicago's museum campus (though probably with a few more active uses). Possibly a planetarium or a better aquarium. Several years ago, there was a group that was proposing to build a world-class aquarium on the lakefront. However, that ended when Jacobs opened an aquarium in the Powerhouse. There was also a plan for a transportation museum somewhere on the lakefront, I think near Burke airport. But I believe there was a funding shortfall. They will definitely need to build something that will attract visitors year-round. Edited March 27, 20241 yr by LibertyBlvd
March 27, 20241 yr 15 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: Several years ago, there was a group that was proposing to build a world-class aquarium on the lakefront. However, that ended when Jacobs opened an aquarium in the Powerhouse. There was also a plan for a transportation museum somewhere on the lakefront, I think near Burke airport. But I believe there was a funding shortfall. They will definitely need to build something that will attract visitors year-round. Trolleyville if I remember correctly. I would imagine a world class aquarium would be a huge draw and a no-brainer in that location.
March 27, 20241 yr yea i think i would rather see this as an interactive institution/park setting than housing and office. Aquarium/space center/ outdoor concert venue/ new children's museum wonder what the cost is on the demo of the stadium.
March 27, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, surfohio said: Trolleyville if I remember correctly. No. It was this: https://www.farmanddairy.com/news/new-crawford-museum-gets-500000-federal-appropriation/4071.html
March 27, 20241 yr How does any developer want to invest/build since the land under the existing Cleveland Browns Stadium can never be owned?
March 27, 20241 yr For the sake of history and the growing pile of long lost lakefront ideas: Cleveland — Historic Trolleys a Goal to Revitalize Downtown Sun Newspapers, January 12 2006 By KEN PRENDERGAST Staff Writer Jan. 12, 2006 Downtown Cleveland's lakefront soon could feature more than just new housing, offices and shops. It might gain an historic and fun way to get around. Later this year, a collection of antique electric trolleys of the former Trolleyville USA, now called Lakeshore Electric Railway, will be moving downtown. RTA has given Lake Shore Electric a green signal to build a car barn at the end of the Waterfront Line near East 26th Street. The 50-car collection has called Olmsted Township home for more than four decades. The $40 million collection sits behind the old Trolleyville USA lot on Columbia Road. All the trolleys must be moved by July, in accordance with a sales agreement Gary Brookins made when he sold the Town & Country Plaza and Columbia Mobile Home Park in 2001. Once the new car barn is finished, the next stop for Lakeshore Electric is to build a lakefront trolley museum, to display the impact trolleys made on urban development in the first half of the 20th century. And, it will explain Cleveland's importance to the streetcar era, as many cars used nationwide were built here, said Steve Frye, a consultant to the museum. https://heritagetrolley.org/planCleveland01.htm
March 27, 20241 yr 44 minutes ago, dave2017 said: How does any developer want to invest/build since the land under the existing Cleveland Browns Stadium can never be owned? It’s a completely normal practice for developers to enter a ground lease and build on land they don’t own.
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