21 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Can it be?   Hell, the C5 can land there.

 

Sure, but if there was value in utilizing Burke in this way don't you think it already would be?

37 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

Sure, but if there was value in utilizing Burke in this way don't you think it already would be?

 

Not necessarily, if it required any innovation or imagination to make it happen.   #ThisIsCleveland, after all.

FYI...   lakefront future forum...  (maybe)

 

https://www.youtube.com/live/YFL9vDeFzTs?si=MNIqglfScbBch-_r

7 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Can it be?   Hell, the C5 can land there.

 

A completely empty C5 can land there.  

8 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Not necessarily, if it required any innovation or imagination to make it happen.   #ThisIsCleveland, after all.

I get the sentiment, but I don’t think utilizing an airport for air freight requires either innovation or imagination. People much more knowledgeable in this industry than I’m assuming most of us have determined that Burke isn’t suitable for this use when you have LCK or ILN within the region. 
 

Frankly, the long-shot of an incubator for the electric short range air taxi industry seems at least a NEW niche that might have some potential at BKL, but there’s still countless other underutilized airports across the country that would fit the bill. And I think this sector will go the way of the STOLport craze of the 60s/70s in any event. 
 

Edited August 6, 2024Aug 6 by brtshrcegr

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

A completely empty C5 can land there.  

Actually, Burke doesn’t have the runway for a C5 to take off at MTOW, but plenty of enough runway to land at max landing weight.  Whether it has the runway and taxiway strength for those operations is another matter. 

Bonsoir, Stadium! 

This major change to the skyline is now out of our hands. 

I'm very excited about what's next for the Cleveland lakefront without it.

Edited August 6, 2024Aug 6 by ExPatClevGuy

The lease expires in 2028, so we've got the turd for a little longer -- unless they f off to Sacramento until the new stadium is built. Demoltion/clean-up takes potentially 6 months, which may vary if there are wrecking balls or explosives.

 

Demolition costs are unknown at this point ($35 million seems like a very conseravtive estimate based on five minutes of research).

 

Point being, it's going to be years before the stadium is flattened. And even when/if that occurs, realistically, what next? Undoubtedly we'll see big presentations that are partial regurgitations of  those from decades prior, but where is the financing and tenant demand?

 

I'm very bearish on anything happening there of note for decades.

 

Am I missing it? Is there anywhere to public comment on the new lakefront proposal?

24 minutes ago, TBideon said:

The lease expires in 2028, so we've got the turd for a little longer -- unless they f off to Sacramento until the new stadium is built. Demoltion/clean-up takes potentially 6 months, which may vary if there are wrecking balls or explosives.

 

Demolition costs are unknown at this point ($35 million seems like a very conseravtive estimate based on five minutes of research).

 

Point being, it's going to be years before the stadium is flattened. And even when/if that occurs, realistically, what next? Undoubtedly we'll see big presentations that are partial regurgitations of  those from decades prior, but where is the financing and tenant demand?

 

I'm very bearish on anything happening there of note for decades.

 

 

Right.  If the demand was there wouldn't we have seen Pace's development expand beyond Nuevo and about 12 really expensive apartments on the pier?

there is a survey somewhere online. went to the presentation and got the impression that the feedback isn't going anywhere.

27 minutes ago, sizzlinbeef said:

 

Right.  If the demand was there wouldn't we have seen Pace's development expand beyond Nuevo and about 12 really expensive apartments on the pier?

 

Jackson administration took away the development rights from Pace and gave them to the Haslams. Bibb took them away from the Haslams and gave them to the North Coast Waterfront Development Corp.

42 minutes ago, TBideon said:

The lease expires in 2028, so we've got the turd for a little longer -- unless they f off to Sacramento until the new stadium is built. Demoltion/clean-up takes potentially 6 months, which may vary if there are wrecking balls or explosives.

 

Demolition costs are unknown at this point ($35 million seems like a very conseravtive estimate based on five minutes of research).

 

Point being, it's going to be years before the stadium is flattened. And even when/if that occurs, realistically, what next? Undoubtedly we'll see big presentations that are partial regurgitations of  those from decades prior, but where is the financing and tenant demand?

 

I'm very bearish on anything happening there of note for decades.

 

These thoughts are what concerned me with the potential of the Browns leaving the lakefront. Obviously I'd prefer a ton of development and park space vs having the stadium there, but I fear losing the stadium will delay and possible hurt some of the development. 

 

With the Browns officially? going to BP now, do we start any development north of the stadium before it is removed? It will be blocked off for probably a year with the demolition and cleanup. The old Chargers stadium took 13 months from final event to clean site, and they already had a buyer and new stadium project lined up. Is the city going to have the money ready to speed through this? Or will an empty stadium sit around for 2 years before it starts to come down?

 

So now, potentially, no major developments until around 2030 at the earliest. And who knows what economic conditions will look like then. It could be 2040+ before we have any projects starting on the land. 

 

With the Browns staying, I was at least pretty confident we were getting some development north of the stadium and some of the other things shown in land bridge renderings. Now, I wonder if all of those will be put on hold until the stadium is gone, and possibly may never happen. 

 

It could be a good thing in the end, wait an extra 10-15 years for a much better space and maybe a different land bridge. But I never trust a project with a start date more than a month out. 

i don't think they'll be able to start the freeway conversion into a boulevard for several years, either.  This plan will take a long time, no matter how you slice it.  I would bet the park area by the lakefront can be developed while theyre tearing down the stadium. and assume the stadium plot will be private development

I think the timing makes sense. Let's get Gilbert to build out the land behind Tower City first. That's going to take 5-10 years. Once work is well along back there, shift focus to the newly vacant land along the lakefront. It's going to take a couple of years to build the new stadium and a bit to tear down the old one and prepare the site for normal use.  That leads another 5-10 years of construction down there. Once that is done Burke will be closed and everyone can spend endless lifetimes filling it out with parks and buildings and whatnot.

37 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Jackson administration took away the development rights from Pace and gave them to the Haslams. Bibb took them away from the Haslams and gave them to the North Coast Waterfront Development Corp.

 

^ What a circus this has been. I think we lost all chance for organic ASAP development when they tore down those big warehouses. I wish they didn't. I know Pace wanted to reuse them initially. 

 

Maybe someone can fill me in that they were horribly toxic or structurally perilous and not capable of being repurposed. But if you attended Ingenuity Festival there you could see how electric the place was and could be. Oh well. 

36 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

^ What a circus this has been. I think we lost all chance for organic ASAP development when they tore down those big warehouses. I wish they didn't. I know Pace wanted to reuse them initially. 

 

Maybe someone can fill me in that they were horribly toxic or structurally perilous and not capable of being repurposed. But if you attended Ingenuity Festival there you could see how electric the place was and could be. Oh well. 

 

They were torn down for the NFL Draft.

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

i don't think they'll be able to start the freeway conversion into a boulevard for several years, either.  This plan will take a long time, no matter how you slice it.  I would bet the park area by the lakefront can be developed while theyre tearing down the stadium. and assume the stadium plot will be private development

 

It can't be private land. It's submerged land reclaimed from an international waterway so it belongs to the federal government or whomever the feds deem can make it publicly accessible. Usually that's the states, but the city of Cleveland has taken it upon itself to own the stadium land and most of the surrounding reclaimed lands. 

how is that possible when there are already private concerns on e9th by the lake. the current plans call for private development. and all previous lakefront plans called for private development. is all new housing supposed to be financed and run by the city?

who owns the apartment building next to the rock hall?

24 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

It can't be private land. It's submerged land reclaimed from an international waterway so it belongs to the federal government or whomever the feds deem can make it publicly accessible. Usually that's the states, but the city of Cleveland has taken it upon itself to own the stadium land and most of the surrounding reclaimed lands. 

Of course they can do lease backs to whoever. I’m guessing this is a state of Ohio thing because there’s plenty of other reclaimed land that has private parcels 

Thinking a bit further ahead, now is the time for the city and RTA to start looking for any funding sources they can to combine with the TIF money and any other little savings accounts they have. With the stadium leaving and the Muni Lot likely opening up for development at some point, a lot of room for development is opening up. Now is the time to start getting the waterfront/blue/green loop going.

 

 

Between the riverfront, lakefront, muni lot, Greyhound, and other empty lots near W17 and the NE area of Downtown, there could be another 7-10k housing units by 2040 covering all levels of income. 

15 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

Actually, Burke doesn’t have the runway for a C5 to take off at MTOW, but plenty of enough runway to land at max landing weight.  Whether it has the runway and taxiway strength for those operations is another matter. 

Copy I didn't check the performance charts.  But I'm sure a one-way delivery to Cleveland is not an effective freight business model 😜

 

Here's a crazy idea: assuming they'd like to move forward with this lakefront master plan without the Browns being involved, what if you replaced the Browns stadium with a massive new aquarium, similar to the one that was supposed to be on the lake at one point. It could be on the far east end of the plot (near the GLSC) so that it's connected to the land bridge, and it'd still provide the lakefront with an "anchor tenant"/attraction. Maybe the rest of the remaining space could be used as more greenspace given the development already planned for the lakefront?

No, that is not a crazy idea.  A world-class aquarium, in addition to the science center and rock hall, would attract visitors to the lakefront year-round.  It would also be nice to restore the Donald Gray Gardens which were lost when the new stadium was built.

An anchor institution would def work well here. Since some are concerned about the lakefront plans sans-CBS, for one city planners and the NorthCoast committee said the plan can continue with or without the stadium. If/when the stadium is demolished, if there is no immediate plan then consider a place like Grant Park in Chicago - there is actually a very large amount of space there dedicated to just grassy fields and open plazas. As a result, they are able to hold a lot of very large outdoor music festivals/events downtown that attract hordes of young people, namely Lollapalooza. Not saying we should mimic Chicago exactly, but at the very least, if the rest of the lakefront plan begins construction and there is no concrete plan in the short term for CBS (post-demolition), the CBS land could "easily" be converted into a very large grassy open space that could also function as a draw for regional music concerts where you can have multiple large outdoor stages in the former CBS land and the Mall simultaneously as one experience connected by the land bridge.

Edited August 7, 2024Aug 7 by Geowizical

2 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

An anchor institution would def work well here. Since some are concerned about the lakefront plans sans-CBS, for one city planners and the NorthCoast committee said the plan can continue with or without the stadium. If/when the stadium is demolished, if there is no immediate plan then consider a place like Grant Park in Chicago - there is actually a very large amount of space there dedicated to just grassy fields and open plazas. As a result, they are able to hold a lot of very large outdoor music festivals/events downtown that attract hordes of young people, namely Lollapalooza. Not saying we should mimic Chicago exactly, but at the very least, if the rest of the lakefront plan begins construction and there is no concrete plan in the short term for CBS (post-demolition), the CBS land could "easily" be converted into a very large grassy open space that could also function as a draw for regional music concerts where you can have multiple large outdoor stages in the former CBS land and the Mall simultaneously as one experience connected by the land bridge.

I was thinking of this exact same thing. I think the space would be amazing utilized as an outdoor concert venue that overlooks the lake. Depending on the performers I feel like it could potentially draw more visitors to the area. 

31 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

An anchor institution would def work well here. Since some are concerned about the lakefront plans sans-CBS, for one city planners and the NorthCoast committee said the plan can continue with or without the stadium. If/when the stadium is demolished, if there is no immediate plan then consider a place like Grant Park in Chicago - there is actually a very large amount of space there dedicated to just grassy fields and open plazas. As a result, they are able to hold a lot of very large outdoor music festivals/events downtown that attract hordes of young people, namely Lollapalooza. Not saying we should mimic Chicago exactly, but at the very least, if the rest of the lakefront plan begins construction and there is no concrete plan in the short term for CBS (post-demolition), the CBS land could "easily" be converted into a very large grassy open space that could also function as a draw for regional music concerts where you can have multiple large outdoor stages in the former CBS land and the Mall simultaneously as one experience connected by the land bridge.

Would be cool to have more live music in Cleveland, especially since it's the home of the R&RHOF.  And a large park replacing CBS would be a great seasonal venue for hosting concerts.

44 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

An anchor institution would def work well here. Since some are concerned about the lakefront plans sans-CBS, for one city planners and the NorthCoast committee said the plan can continue with or without the stadium. If/when the stadium is demolished, if there is no immediate plan then consider a place like Grant Park in Chicago - there is actually a very large amount of space there dedicated to just grassy fields and open plazas. As a result, they are able to hold a lot of very large outdoor music festivals/events downtown that attract hordes of young people, namely Lollapalooza. Not saying we should mimic Chicago exactly, but at the very least, if the rest of the lakefront plan begins construction and there is no concrete plan in the short term for CBS (post-demolition), the CBS land could "easily" be converted into a very large grassy open space that could also function as a draw for regional music concerts where you can have multiple large outdoor stages in the former CBS land and the Mall simultaneously as one experience connected by the land bridge.

That's what I was envisioning when I mentioned that "green space" in my original post. When I concocted this aquarium idea, I kept thinking of the setup that Atlanta has in their downtown. They have the massive Georgia Aquarium located next to their Centennial Olympic Park, which they use for concerts, events, etc. frequently. 

 

Additionally, what I like about this final lakefront plan are all of the intentionally "active" spaces around the stadium; having an open green space where the stadiums sits today, which would have flexible usage and drive organic interactions, would be a great complement to those plans. 

Edited August 7, 2024Aug 7 by BuckeyeNative

29 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said:

I was thinking of this exact same thing. I think the space would be amazing utilized as an outdoor concert venue that overlooks the lake. Depending on the performers I feel like it could potentially draw more visitors to the area. 

 

I saw REM at Jones Beach on Long Island NY a long time ago (pic from google, not that concert) and an open air theater on the water, on a clear night, is just a perfect venue.

 

A 5-10k person concert venue emptying out into the proposed lakefront district would bring a ton of activity to the retail right there, and be a great pre or post-concert space to hang out.

 

^ Nice. Now have the venue mimic the architecture of the 1936/37 Great Lakes Expo and I'll sign your petition Sir! 

 

Check out Buffalo's Outer Harbor progress - it's kind of a hodgepodge of things but it's got the concert venue, lakeside trail (with hammocks!!),  bike things (mountain bike singletrack, pump track, gravel garden), and connects to the city via a trail. Maybe it's more of a BKL thing, but it shows what's possible, especially based on some of the more recent comments. 

 

https://buffalowaterfront.com/outer-harbor

 

From the Cleveland Browns Stadium thread....

 

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

As an alternative, perhaps the stadium would be best kept, refurbished, and repurposed. Barcelona and Bejing have succesfully adapted old stadiums, and the lakefront project still needs a major, visible anchor tenant before any of these fairy tale developments begin.

 

Bush stadium in Indianapolis changed from a traditional stadium to car lot to (presumably) expensive apartments. Maybe that's what Browns stadium could be. It would be cool as f to live there.

 

The Rock Hall gets 600,000 visits per year (prior to expansion). That's as many annual visitors as Cleveland Browns Stadium gets in a winning season. It got 500,000 per year in the 2010s when they were awful. Add another 50,000-100,000 per year for concerts, etc. The Rock Hall (and its parking needs) takes up far less space. We have our lakefront anchor. Developers like to build ballpark villages with theme restaurants and apartments that look into the sporting venue. Use the stadium site for a Rock Hall village.

I say just take the upper deck off and make it a soccer stadium. 

25 minutes ago, tj111 said:

I say just take the upper deck off and make it a soccer stadium. 

 

If only there was some connection to the Crew we could finally get them to play some more exhibition games up in CLE.

31 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

If only there was some connection to the Crew we could finally get them to play some more exhibition games up in CLE.

That connection will have them play in Brookpark in a few years.

1 hour ago, tj111 said:

I say just take the upper deck off and make it a soccer stadium. 

Seriously a great idea. What’s the lower bowl capacity?

2 hours ago, daybreaker said:

 

I saw REM at Jones Beach on Long Island NY a long time ago (pic from google, not that concert) and an open air theater on the water, on a clear night, is just a perfect venue.

 

A 5-10k person concert venue emptying out into the proposed lakefront district would bring a ton of activity to the retail right there, and be a great pre or post-concert space to hang out.

 

This also could be built at Voinovich Park, just down the pier from the RRHF.

 

Hilarious -- I just looked at Google Maps and Google already thinks that there is a concert venue there.  "Voinovich Bicentennial Park, Lakeside park with a concert stage"
 

 

5 hours ago, KJP said:

We have our lakefront anchor. Developers like to build ballpark villages with theme restaurants and apartments that look into the sporting venue. Use the stadium site for a Rock Hall village.

This. No need to make it overly complicated. The marketing gimmick already exists and it can ride the coattails of the Rock Hall expansion. If the stadium ends up moving then just swap out the stadium with apartments under Bibb's plan.

As much as it sucks that it looks like the browns are moving out of downtown, I feel like we lose perspective that Cleveland still has two major league sports teams downtown. Something most cities still can't claim. The one positive about having this near the airport is hopefully it does help revitalize the area some. The area surrounding Hopkins is so depressing and not a great first impression of the city IMO. Between the new stadium and future upgraded RTA vehicles I think that will do wonders. 

14 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said:

As much as it sucks that it looks like the browns are moving out of downtown, I feel like we lose perspective that Cleveland still has two major league sports teams downtown. Something most cities still can't claim.

 

Who are you dismissing -- the Cavs or the Guards?  Personally, I'm a big Monsters fan, but concede that they're not a major league sports team.

4 hours ago, Foraker said:

This also could be built at Voinovich Park, just down the pier from the RRHF.

 

Hilarious -- I just looked at Google Maps and Google already thinks that there is a concert venue there.  "Voinovich Bicentennial Park, Lakeside park with a concert stage"
 

 

Why is there a walkway across the lawn?

1 hour ago, Rustbelter said:

This. No need to make it overly complicated. The marketing gimmick already exists and it can ride the coattails of the Rock Hall expansion. If the stadium ends up moving then just swap out the stadium with apartments under Bibb's plan.

This^2

 

I do understand the people saying the wind and elements here could be harsh for living, but there are cities all over Scandinavia and other places in the world with great waterfront communities that get similar conditions. If you build a good and well connected neighborhood, people will come. 

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Why is there a walkway across the lawn?

The walkway splits the lower and upper section of the lawn. The second half of the lawn (nearest toward the volleyball courts) is actually raised and has tiered seating around it to allow for sitting areas to view the lake.

 

isn't that the guy that destroyed it in the middle of the night without permission? lol I'm not sure that may be the best course of action for mayor Bibb 🤣

Story in Crains about 43 acres of old power plant lakefront land Avon Lake is seeking to redevelop. I post it here because it’ll be really interesting to see what interest they get. Maybe a sign of what Cleveland would see once Jimmy makes up his mind? Looks like they want to sell the land before the end of the year and redevelop within 5-7 years. I would assume downtown would be me attractive just being in a more dense area and more centrally located to the region…. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/avison-young-marketing-43-acre-site-avon-lake-redevelopment

 

‘Lakefront plan’ becoming ‘lakefront project’
By Ken Prendergast / August 29, 2024

 

One of the most important pieces of legislation regarding the future of Downtown Cleveland's lakefront is working its way through Cleveland City Council. The proposed ordinance amendment, if passed at council's next regular meeting Sept. 9, would codify the desired lakefront land-use features and set the city on a course to implement them. In other words, it would no longer be a lakefront plan, but a lakefront project.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/08/29/lakefront-plan-becoming-lakefront-project/

As a Cleveland transplant I need to ask: have we ever got this far with any other lakefront plans? I have seen lots of talk about multiple plans over the decades and nothing coming of it. So I'm trying to understand at what point will this move further than anything in the past so I know when to start getting excited?

2 Billion        Airport Master plan

1.2 Billion     Stadium Renovation (Possibly 2.4 Bil for dome)

700 Million   New Courthouse

100 Million    Riverfron Plan First Phase (Total project 3.5 Bil)

500 Million   Lakefron Plan (Minimum) 

____________

$4.5 Billion  (probably a conservative number)

 

 

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!