October 18, 2024Oct 18 23 minutes ago, TMart said: I thought the conventional wisdom was that this was a bad location for a stadium because it was preventing all these potential developments. Well, not that long ago, the area north of the stadium was full of warehouses. I've candidly never understood the argument that the stadium gets in way of properly utilizing the lakefront, because there are about 20 developable acres north of it. As you can see from the renders the city put together, you could have a pretty nice little district developed north of the stadium without moving it.
October 18, 2024Oct 18 2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said: I agree with all of this too, except that I think one can forget that not all of Burke is really "lakefront land." I don't think anyone would call Battery Park "lakefront land," But the big neon letters that say "Battery Park" are actually only 300 yards from the water, not the sand, but the water, at Edgewater. See below: The distance from the waterfront to the interstate measuring across Burke is almost 600 meters. See below. And the above is the part of Burke that's closest to downtown. If you go farther east, there are places where the lakefront on Burke is more than 700 meters from the highway. So I think there are lots of potential layouts where fit a stadium plus tons of parking onto Burke without jeopardizing any of the "lakefront." It's a fair point, and like I said, it could be done well, but I don't think it would, and until I see plans, I'm maintaining in opposition. Also, parking takes up a lot of space, very quickly. If we just look at the current stadium and the (previously) parking North of it, that's 475 meters. That's most of the width of Burke where you measured it, and basically any point West of the highway interchange. The problem is that anyway you slice it, if the Haslams want substantial parking around the stadium (which there's reason to suspect), it's difficult to do that without slicing the park in half, or completely disconnecting it from downtown. Pictured above is only about 18 acres of parking. I'm sure the Haslams want more than that. I analyzed this a bit further in the below quoted post where I looked at the size of 40 acres of parking. That's still less than they want, but maybe the bare minimum they'll accept in addition to mini lot not getting developed and downtown parking availability. Maybe they could do a muni lot style thing parking lot down the length of Burke, but I'm guessing that's not what the Browns want. Basically parking takes up space fast. On 9/22/2024 at 10:11 AM, Ethan said: Yes, at a minimum, plans to develop portions of the muni lot would not happen if we move the Stadium three to five quarters of a mile East. It is, but looking at this as a purely numbers thing loses a lot of information. Not all the land is equally valuable, since only a tiny percentage of Burke is walkable from the downtown core. Burke, plus the confined disposal facilities, is 400 plus acres, so it's easy to say it can absorb 100 acres of parking, but when I try to mentally map it out, this isn't obvious to me. My first assumption is that any mixed use development or new neighborhood really needs to be in the southwest corner of Burke. I don't see this succeeding unless it's as connected to the downtown core as possible. One option is to put the stadium in this area. That's a significant chunk out of the mixed use neighborhood, about a third, and it would really change how it feels, but it's probably the only place you can put the stadium where it can realistically rely primarily (or at least partially) on existing downtown parking infrastructure, it will likely still come with new parking, but not nearly as much as literally anywhere else. In the below quote I visualize 45 acres of mixed use development. The other two most likely option are immediately East or North of this development. I personally hate the idea of North, as it would mean putting the stadium immediately on the lake which seems like a waste of what I'd consider the most valuable part of Burke. East is the option I'd prefer, if it could be placed East of the development area near the highway with minimal new parking I think it would be a great option, but my fear is that it starts to get too far away from the downtown parking infrastructure to realistically rely on it without adding a boatload of new parking. I don't think you can add 50-100 of acres of parking without killing what the park could have been. I was curious, so the above area basically represents the stadium plus ~40 acres of parking. Realistically we'd have more than 40 acres of parking, probably at least twice as much. The exact location isn't too important, the main point is that there really isn't any way to add anything like the parking needs of a football stadium without effectively splitting the park in two (at best). It is big enough to withstand that, but in doing so you basically immediately resign any chance of this being a Metroparks Reservation quality park immediately adjacent to downtown, which is admittedly what I want, and what I think is best for Cleveland. It helps us lean into a new angle as a forest city on a lake and a river, heavy on nature and recreation. It brings our fabulous emerald necklace into downtown with a new jewel. (Obviously this would take a long time, as parks take time to mature, the wouldn't be a quick fix). Of course this could also be designed more or less like how it was roughed up in a NeoTrans article a while ago, in which case why bother having a park at all? It will add no value and basically just be a fancy perimeter for a parking lot. https://neo-trans.blog/2024/08/30/officials-want-burke-airport-on-the-table-for-browns/ Actually this particular rough up is using nearly all of Burke for the stadium and stadium adjacent needs, the park is almost exclusively relegated to the confined disposable facility. That is a choice we could make, but I'm arguing we shouldn't. I'd be interested to see more detailed proposals for land use at this site with a stadium included. I won't name anyone because I don't want to volunteer work onto anyone, but we have a few very talented forumers who could draw up some nice schematics. There are of course other options I didn't discuss above and I would invite creative speculation. TLDR: To conclude, I'm not saying we can't have a stadium at Burke, we obviously could, I'm saying we'd have to sacrifice something, and realistically that sacrifice is coming from the possible park. I believe that sacrifice would be significant and that at the end of the day, a new central jewel in the emerald necklace is a better use of downtown adjacent lakefront land than parking for a sports stadium. -- 2 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said: Well, not that long ago, the area north of the stadium was full of warehouses. I've candidly never understood the argument that the stadium gets in way of properly utilizing the lakefront, because there are about 20 developable acres north of it. As you can see from the renders the city put together, you could have a pretty nice little district developed north of the stadium without moving it. Absolutely, if the Haslams are willing and interested in an urban form stadium. The problem is that they aren't as far as I can tell.
October 18, 2024Oct 18 Any of our rendering experts want to use this for "what if" scenarios, feel free. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
October 19, 2024Oct 19 Great idea, @MayDay How bout a rendering of another Gold Coast on that stadium site? Let’s build something that changes the face of Cleveland!
October 20, 2024Oct 20 The city hasn't shown much interest in making an urban, neighborhood scale development on the lakefront. The latest plans show wide streets with a few buildings separated by plazas. If the Browns stadium were demolished I'd expect a push for more public space, not development, a mistake IMO. We'll see if the city releases alternative plans without Browns stadium.
October 20, 2024Oct 20 27 minutes ago, Mendo said: The city hasn't shown much interest in making an urban, neighborhood scale development on the lakefront. The latest plans show wide streets with a few buildings separated by plazas. If the Browns stadium were demolished I'd expect a push for more public space, not development, a mistake IMO. We'll see if the city releases alternative plans without Browns stadium. Bibb says they are developing the plans. If they want federal funds for any part of it, they have to release them prior to making a decision to move forward with them. Besides, if there's a will, there's a way of getting copies of plans. 😉 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 21, 2024Oct 21 It's not going to be a high end residential development, and anyone who has ever been to a Browns game in December or January knows why. If it's an outdoor or semi-outdoor attraction, it's going to be seasonal.
October 22, 2024Oct 22 Moved some posts to the "What if/Dream" thread. Some clearly are a better fit there, and others might fall into a gray area - I'm the first to vote for rail service to Blossom but again, What if/Dream 😉 clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
October 22, 2024Oct 22 On 10/21/2024 at 7:14 AM, E Rocc said: It's not going to be a high end residential development, and anyone who has ever been to a Browns game in December or January knows why. If it's an outdoor or semi-outdoor attraction, it's going to be seasonal. Cities like Copenhagen (with arguably even worse weather year-round and with shorter "nice" seasons) have recently been redeveloping former industrial waterfront land into new residential neighborhoods, so I think it would totally be possible and realistic here in Cleveland too. On the seasonal aspect though, I think that does have some cool and unique opportunities for ways to further make the lakefront as a year-round destination. My 2 cents if I could wave a magic wand: Keep the city's current lakefront plans with large park space and some smaller hotel/residential components, along with the food hall (and land bridge, of course). On the Browns stadium portion, I'd like to see a concert venue and stage, as others as mentioned to be able to host big concerts, music festivals, Rock Hall events, etc here. I'd also love to see a brand new aquarium built here (moved from the Flats - and then that building gets redeveloped into a larger events space / other reuse and helps kickstart a larger Flats West Bank transformation). This would help create a new lakefront anchor (and one that would get way more regular and year-round use than the current stadium), and truly designate the lakefront as downtown's museum district with the new aquarium, Rock Hall, and Science Center. Plus a creatively designed aquarium building could add a unique architectural statement to the area, just as the Rock Hall and arguably the Science Center (with the theatre dome) add to the district too, and further help tie the location to its waterfront setting. Then build up a few additional blocks of mixed use residential, hotel, and commercial develops around it in the remaining land and boom, you've got a new vibrant urban neighborhood integrated with a museum district, lakefront park, and food/entertainment offerings that provide both seasonal and year-round programming. Edited October 22, 2024Oct 22 by urbanetics_
October 22, 2024Oct 22 Should developments consider Burke closed ? I ask this if the height limitations were removed from the equation
October 22, 2024Oct 22 How about development around a central park. We could have our own Central Park on the water
October 22, 2024Oct 22 Interesting video from Fox8. Not much info, but an interesting statement that the target of 60% publicly accessible land will not change if the stadium opens up. https://fox8.com/video/what-happens-to-the-lakefront-now/10143476
October 23, 2024Oct 23 What's amazing to me is we are on the cusp of having one of the most underwhelming waterfronts (Riverfront and Lakefront) to BOTH being world class attractions almost simultaneously. It really is amazing to see it unfold.
October 23, 2024Oct 23 19 hours ago, dave2017 said: Should developments consider Burke closed ? I ask this if the height limitations were removed from the equation Okay, which one of you Urban Ohioan's is walking around Lakewood with a "CLOSE BURKE" t-shirt 😂
October 23, 2024Oct 23 50 minutes ago, surfohio said: Okay, which one of you Urban Ohioan's is walking around Lakewood with a "CLOSE BURKE" t-shirt 😂 Been waiting for one, where can we get ours? Can they add eff hsg on the back?
October 28, 2024Oct 28 Bombshell?! Destination Cleveland commissioned study that shows domed Browns stadium on Burke Lakefront Airport land https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/10/destination-cleveland-commissioned-study-that-shows-domed-browns-stadium-on-burke-lakefront-airport-land.html
October 28, 2024Oct 28 All of the renderings -- and you can see them for free! Sneak peak at Burke lakefront stadium By Ken Prendergast / October 28, 2024 NEOtrans was among the Greater Cleveland media outlets to anonymously receive renderings of what a Cleveland Browns domed stadium at Burke Lakefront Airport could look like. The renderings, which also show stadium-area development, changes to roadways and parking, were commissioned Cleveland-based architecture firm Vocon Partners LLC by the convention and tourism bureau Destination Cleveland. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/10/28/sneak-peak-at-burke-lakefront-stadium/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 28, 2024Oct 28 13 minutes ago, KJP said: All of the renderings -- and you can see them for free! Sneak peak at Burke lakefront stadium By Ken Prendergast / October 28, 2024 NEOtrans was among the Greater Cleveland media outlets to anonymously receive renderings of what a Cleveland Browns domed stadium at Burke Lakefront Airport could look like. The renderings, which also show stadium-area development, changes to roadways and parking, were commissioned Cleveland-based architecture firm Vocon Partners LLC by the convention and tourism bureau Destination Cleveland. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2024/10/28/sneak-peak-at-burke-lakefront-stadium/ I like it, but isn't it too late? I thought Haslam made it clear he's not willing to wait on the closing of Burke.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 On 10/22/2024 at 12:53 PM, urbanetics_ said: Cities like Copenhagen (with arguably even worse weather year-round and with shorter "nice" seasons) have recently been redeveloping former industrial waterfront land into new residential neighborhoods, so I think it would totally be possible and realistic here in Cleveland too. On the seasonal aspect though, I think that does have some cool and unique opportunities for ways to further make the lakefront as a year-round destination. My 2 cents if I could wave a magic wand: Keep the city's current lakefront plans with large park space and some smaller hotel/residential components, along with the food hall (and land bridge, of course). On the Browns stadium portion, I'd like to see a concert venue and stage, as others as mentioned to be able to host big concerts, music festivals, Rock Hall events, etc here. I'd also love to see a brand new aquarium built here (moved from the Flats - and then that building gets redeveloped into a larger events space / other reuse and helps kickstart a larger Flats West Bank transformation). This would help create a new lakefront anchor (and one that would get way more regular and year-round use than the current stadium), and truly designate the lakefront as downtown's museum district with the new aquarium, Rock Hall, and Science Center. Plus a creatively designed aquarium building could add a unique architectural statement to the area, just as the Rock Hall and arguably the Science Center (with the theatre dome) add to the district too, and further help tie the location to its waterfront setting. Then build up a few additional blocks of mixed use residential, hotel, and commercial develops around it in the remaining land and boom, you've got a new vibrant urban neighborhood integrated with a museum district, lakefront park, and food/entertainment offerings that provide both seasonal and year-round programming. Copenhagen is a city used to having development on water. I believe that it's also smaller than Cleveland but is more populated. The need to develop there may be a contributing factor (I don't know). I'm sure that these type of developments in Copenhagen may happen sooner than later. I do like the ideas you mentioned.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 Pretty renderings, but is there actually enough parking in it to (1) mollify the Haslams, and (2) to actually support a stadium. This looks to be a net negative in terms of surface lots (possibly a push). The Haslams have expressed a desire for more parking, and this is further from the downtown core, meaning fewer parking options are within a short to medium length walk. I'm obviously not opposed to removing surface lots, I'm just questioning whether or not this proposal is a serious proposal, or merely a PR proposal. It seems like it was designed to be leaked, not as a serious proposal to the Haslams.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 I love every part of this plan (concept of a plan? 😜). I've said before that Brook Park is not the end of the world, and I really believe it. But seeing this planned out strengthens my belief that Burke is an obviously superior location from a land use and urban planning standpoint. The plan looks like an actually good version of Soldier Field. How many other stadiums are walking distance to water, walking distance to museums, walking distance to downtown, surrounded by a ballpark district, and walking distance to a huge park? I also love the vision for the greenspace. I truly believe the best use (for now) for the majority of Burke is to just plant grass and trees, put in a few walking trails and picnic benches and leave it at that. It is relatively cheap and leaves the door open to other uses later. And in the meantime it creates a relatively wild and forested urban park, which is something many big cities already have, like Washington Park in Portland or Mount Sutro in San Francisco, or Griffith Park in LA. I am not terribly optimistic about these plans coming to pass, but I do have this wild fantasy that maybe Bibb and Haslam have been playing 4-d checkers and the public dispute is an attempt to create leverage so that Burke can be shut down in five years instead of twelve. I really don't think that's what's happening, but I would love to be wrong.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 Echo everyone else, it looks fantastic, but Jimmy ain't interested in anything that might not be ready until he is worm food.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 If Haslam was a Clevelander he would do this. He would stay in the old(??) stadium until the Burke land was available then build this...but he's not a Clevelander.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 I'm in the minority and am glad to see them go. The possibilities for our Lakefront are endless. The Haslams are giving us a gift. Stop whining and take it.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 I think everyone could rally behind this. They would have to shut down Burke in 5-6 years to have a chance at jimmy going for it. But the question still remains on how it would be paid for.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 This would be cool. Given the time and expense required to close Burke, does anyone have any idea what it would take to move the port? I would hope relocating the port would be cheaper and easier than the airport, and probably a more crucial piece of real estate from an urban design standpoint.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 I've posted this before. Burke would be good a good site for the stadium, but I actually think the Port would be better. Seems like the Port could easily be replaced at the east end of Burke. I wonder why this has never been on the table.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 Now we just need the renderings of the renovated stadium to see all of the options.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 10 minutes ago, Dino said: I've posted this before. Burke would be good a good site for the stadium, but I actually think the Port would be better. Seems like the Port could easily be replaced at the east end of Burke. I wonder why this has never been on the table. I think moving the port would be very expensive.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 1 hour ago, jbee1982 said: I'm in the minority and am glad to see them go. The possibilities for our Lakefront are endless. The Haslams are giving us a gift. Stop whining and take it. Lol! Take what? If Haslam gets what he wants it will cost the taxpayers 1.2 billion. Some gift.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 28 minutes ago, Whipjacka said: I think moving the port would be very expensive. Are the rail connections over at Burke the same as the current port?
October 28, 2024Oct 28 18 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said: Are the rail connections over at Burke the same as the current port? Yes, but more difficult since one of the two rail lines is increasing in elevation at a steeper grade. And now you'd have to cross the Shoreway boulevard at grade from the low rail line or on an elevated rail alignment from the upper rai line. At the east end of Burke (IMHO the better place for the Port), I-90 is between the low rail line and the water. And a rail line isn't going to cross I-90 at grade. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 28, 2024Oct 28 I am surprised they didn't include a waterfront line extension into the middle of all this. I think that would be a great addition.
October 28, 2024Oct 28 City Study on Burke Lakefront future. https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/10/28/destination-cleveland-releases-renderings-burke-lakefront-stadium/
October 28, 2024Oct 28 Looks great aside from the obvious who's paying for it part. This is the level of development density I was hoping to see north of the current stadium.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 5 hours ago, Geowizical said: Bombshell?! Destination Cleveland commissioned study that shows domed Browns stadium on Burke Lakefront Airport land https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/10/destination-cleveland-commissioned-study-that-shows-domed-browns-stadium-on-burke-lakefront-airport-land.html Hmmm, the Windy City looks a bit different in this photo... Who would've ever guessed an NFL team would buy a massive parcel of land in an inner ring suburb conveniently next to rail transit, announce plans to relocate from a hundred year old downtown lakefront stadium location causing outrage among thousands of fans, before renderings for a brand new downtown stadium seemingly come out of nowhere. Anchoring? Or is it possible I'm reading too far between the lines? Perhaps we were just too Bearish on the stadium staying downtown. Edited October 29, 2024Oct 29 by sonisharri
October 29, 2024Oct 29 Destination Cleveland. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/destination-cleveland-paid-for-drawings-of-a-browns-stadium-at-burke-lakefront-airport
October 29, 2024Oct 29 I love how Daryl Ruiter today thinks this would be a traffic nightmare, yet is all for Brookpark. Never thought he'd become such a simp for Jimmy and his playground.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 4 hours ago, jbee1982 said: I'm in the minority and am glad to see them go. The possibilities for our Lakefront are endless. The Haslams are giving us a gift. Stop whining and take it. Boy you are going to be quite surprised when the lakefront continues to house an empty stadium decades after Jimmy packs up and leaves. We literally had acres of surface parking on Public Square for over 30 years. No one is banging on the door to build up the lakefront with enough capital.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 33 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: I love how Daryl Ruiter today thinks this would be a traffic nightmare, yet is all for Brookpark. Never thought he'd become such a simp for Jimmy and his playground. Everyone at that station has been parroting the same identical talking points. I am sure its a coincidence!
October 29, 2024Oct 29 Maybe the stadium could be repurposed into housing i.e. a dramatically scaled up version of Indiana's Scaled Lofts. That, or it will be an eyesore for many years to come since the money tree is exhausted. $20 or $30 million in demolition costs can go a long way elsewhere. Frankly, all this Burke distraction, though fun discourse, is totally irrelevant. A Gemini prompt could produce comparable images, maybe even better quality. I don't get why everyone is so impressed by that low quality s**t. Needlessly replacing an active airport for a billionaire's playground at the cost of 9 or 10 subsidized figures just wasn't happening in our lifetimes. it just reminds me of Jackson's futile proposal to gift Burke for Amazon's second headquarters sweepstakes. Only serious, grounded-in-reality offers need apply.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 Amazing Dome development renderings today - finally! Finally a counter to the Jimmy HSG PR rollout such as today's Crains pro-Haslam astroturf puff piece (surprisingly no firewall?) in favor of the BP site and how lucky we are in Northeast Ohio, by Haslam family and DeWine insider Alex R. Fischer: Personal View: Thoughts on the Browns' stadium issue from Columbus https://www.crainscleveland.com/commentary/personal-view-thoughts-browns-stadium-issue-columbus “…So it pains me on multiple fronts to see your mayor (Justin Bibb) blatantly practicing divisive politics with the Cleveland Browns and the Haslams. No one puts the community as a higher priority than the Haslam family. Publicly and privately, they have always emphasized and practiced the importance of the Browns to Cleveland, Northeast Ohio, and our state. The Modell law? They are planning to invest in Cleveland, which again includes the broader Northeast Ohio region, to the tune of more than $2 billion. They have not suggested moving the Browns to Columbus (in jest, perhaps that’s not a bad idea) or some other market… …Let's stack hands as Ohio, let's think regionally and accomplish big things together. The time for bold action for Ohio's future is now, and this urgency should drive us forward.” Take-away: They expect us to be swayed by this person who was unknown to us until his coming out article today feigning to know what is best for Cleveland while attacking our Mayor Bibb. Isn't this the same person who enigineered the attempted Brown's trainining camp move to C-Bus? The game is being methodically stacked against us by the downstate political swamp. Why the rush unless they are trying to trigger the Brown's departure because of the "divisive" Cleveland politicos and rubes who just can't appreciate the near-Biblical charitable works of the Haslams/HSG. Bibb, Ronayne and Sherrod – please throw a wrench in their plans for us.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 ^ “blame the politicians” is absolutely one their primary talking points. Its admittedly a pretty good tactic too, because “politicians” in this case is coded language for “Democrats.” Great way to sow division in favor of the largely suburban fanbase. Of course the most hilarious irony is Haslam & Company accusing someone else of being incompetent. Look in the mirror James.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 19 hours ago, cadmen said: If Haslam was a Clevelander he would do this. He would stay in the old(??) stadium until the Burke land was available then build this...but he's not a Clevelander. This is it right here. Given the timeline of 10-15 years to upgrade Cuyahoga airport, close Burke, prep the land, and build a new stadium, the current stadium will be hitting 35-40 years old, which is the normal lifespan of an NFL stadium. Anyone who has the best interests of the city at heart would be doing this. Structural improvements and small quality upgrades at HBF. Encourage the city to start working on its lakefront plan in the existing lots. And they'd still getting the sweetheart deal of their own parking lots and football village at their fancy new domed stadium. Sure they might be gone by then, but they're still super filthy rich and they'd have an actual positive legacy in the city for generations to come Edited October 29, 2024Oct 29 by daybreaker
October 29, 2024Oct 29 49 minutes ago, daybreaker said: Given the timeline of 10-15 years to upgrade Cuyahoga airport, close Burke, prep the land, and build a new stadium, the current stadium will be hitting 35-40 years old, which is the normal lifespan of an NFL stadium. Anyone who has the best interests of the city at heart would be doing this. Structural improvements and small quality upgrades at HBF. Encourage the city to start working on its lakefront plan in the existing lots. And they'd still getting the sweetheart deal of their own parking lots and football village at their fancy new domed stadium. Sure they might be gone by then, but they're still super filthy rich and they'd have an actual positive legacy in the city for generations to come And encourage the Haslams to sell if they don't want what's best for Cleveland's future.
October 29, 2024Oct 29 Other billionaires may be interested in the team, but there's no reason to believe they'll have some kind of pro-Cleveland mentality beyond lip service. The issues with the stadium, location and financing wouldn't disappear. The region needs to move past this topic at some point. If Burke or the current Browns stadium can be re-developed, then Bibb, Royanne, governor MAGA, and city/business leaders need to take the lead. A last minute "look what we tried" crappy render or vague legal action are just ass-covering steps in the wrong direction.
Create an account or sign in to comment