Btw I know it is merely conceptual, but that Lakefront plan does not appear to include office space, whereas Brook Park does. A decent presence of class A office space at Brook Park will be as problematic if not more so than the actual stadium. Even in the suburbs I'm sure current vacancy rates are for the most part as high as they are Downtown. Nevermind a KeyBank or Progressive or American Greetings, just a couple of decent sized law firms vacating their current base and going out there would be a f*cking disaster. 

Wow – the designs by top 50 ranked architectural and design firm Vocon (New York and Cleveland) look amazing and provide the image all Northeast Ohioans needed to see first before we could support 100% and rally around.  These design renderings finally speak to and even exceed our collective 50-plus year hope that our lakefront could begin to emulate Chicago and Toronto – or even Milwaukee.  So now we can also forgive why Bibb and Ronayne kept these plans on the low-low while continuing to working reasonably and diligently in good faith to bring the Haslams and HSG along and support the community they profess to care about even though the Haslams had apparently secretly locked in and scripted their aggressive PR campaign long ago.

 

Importantly, Ronayne is now on record in the Plain Dealer story with key observations such as: 

 

“...He suggested that the existing stadium could undergo necessary short-term improvements while the city works to close the airport and prepare it for development.

 

The Browns involvement, he said, might even speed up the process.

 

“It gives us a reason to get there quicker,” he said, adding, “Nobody’s told us we can’t get this done in five years.”

 

With Bibb’s DC experience and influence with the current Administration, I hope it is most likely Mayor Bibb has been in touch with Mayor Pete (DOT Secretary Pete Buttigieg) and his FAA Administrator to help expedite an agreement before January 20th (if the worst case happens in November). After all, Burke is only one of the 5 nearby FAA-certified Reliever airports for Hopkins and those could easily absorb and share what little remains since the alleged heyday of Burke ops.  Plus, all of these have already been quietly getting FAA-funded runway and facility enhancements so even less time than would be needed to complete the sunsetting and bulldozing of Burke as County Executive Ronayne implies.  Well done Ronayne and Bibb.

Edited October 29, 2024Oct 29 by Willo

59 minutes ago, TBideon said:

If Burke or the current Browns stadium can be re-developed, then Bibb, Royanne, governor MAGA, and city/business leaders need to take the lead.

I'm curious to hear what you think this civic leadership would look like?  What should Bibb, Ronayne, DeWine, and other city/business leaders be doing to make this happen?

Would the Haslems be amendable to throwing support behind lakefront redevelopment sans stadium in exchange for support for BP from Ronayne and Bibb standing down? Or does he want to horde every public dollar for his project? Not to keep beating my head against the wall, but BP backers keep saying this opens up the lakefront for new uses... but those can't be realized without any money. If the Haslems are willing to help the city realize a new vision for that area, it seems like a compromise could be made. 

 

Let's be honest, they probably don't care to help that much. And if Trump and Moreno win, the city and county will have even fewer friends with big money in Columbus and DC. This all leads me to think whatever happens there without the stadium is going to be small and incremental to start.

For those of us interested in these types of developments (I suspect there are a lot on this forum), we are lucky to be witnessing a tale of two waterfronts!  We have two non-native Clevelander, billionaire sports team owners, with facilities downtown, who are involved in long term development plans that will greatly effect a long-neglected Cleveland waterfront with massive infrastructure challenges, and the approach each one is taking to bringing their vision into reality could not be more different.

 

The Riverfront - Privately led, publicly approved.  Private land ownership.  Privately developed master plan.  Downtown focused.  Already starting construction.

 

The Lakefront - Publicly led, privately rejected?  Publicly owned land.  Publicly developed master plan, Suburban focused (i.e. Browns reinvesting in Berea and now possibly Brook Park).  Not near construction on anything.

 

Anyone currently getting a Master's or PhD in Urban Planning or Real Estate Development?  This would be an amazing case study on large scale urban revitalization projects!

1 hour ago, Dino said:

I'm curious to hear what you think this civic leadership would look like?  What should Bibb, Ronayne, DeWine, and other city/business leaders be doing to make this happen?

Lots of ideas.

 

DeWine should campaign a constitutional amendment so Ohio can mirror Florida's Homestead law. Then get the Saudis and Chinese to dump billions of protected funds into the area. 

 

Seize and metropark the land. Start planning for a Woodstock type event among other outdoor concerts from Spring through Fall.

 

Gift parcels of the land to developers in exchange for commercial and residential guarantees. 

 

Create a semi-autonomous international city or a global city for LGBTQ exclusively. 

 

Midwest porn studios epicenter.

 

World's biggest waterpark. Slides and bungees to Lake Erie. 

 

All ideas, including legislations and financing, start with leadership.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Lots of ideas.

 

DeWine should campaign a constitutional amendment so Ohio can mirror Florida's Homestead law. Then get the Saudis and Chinese to dump billions of protected funds into the area. 

 

Seize and metropark the land. Start planning for a Woodstock type event among other outdoor concerts from Spring through Fall.

 

Gift parcels of the land to developers in exchange for commercial and residential guarantees. 

 

Create a semi-autonomous international city or a global city for LGBTQ exclusively. 

 

Midwest porn studios epicenter.

 

World's biggest waterpark. Slides and bungees to Lake Erie. 

 

All ideas, including legislations and financing, start with leadership.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to take this as sarcasm...

Grant awarded. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/port-of-cleveland-94-million-grant-environmental-protection-agency-president-ceo-will-friedman-stepping-down/95-58126f72-0f7f-4ec5-a4f0-e939c6f351af

17 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Grant awarded. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/port-of-cleveland-94-million-grant-environmental-protection-agency-president-ceo-will-friedman-stepping-down/95-58126f72-0f7f-4ec5-a4f0-e939c6f351af

 

Posted at:

 

41 minutes ago, columbus17 said:

I'm going to take this as sarcasm...

Nope. Outside-the-box thinking semi-grounded in reality.

1 minute ago, TBideon said:

Nope. Outside-the-box thinking semi-grounded in reality.

I'm not sure about the waterpark, but a mini amusement park on the lakefront might not be a bad idea.

57 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm not sure about the waterpark, but a mini amusement park on the lakefront might not be a bad idea.

 

if the stadium moves to burke, upgrading the waterfront line and replacing the current stadium spot with a Gaylord resort type of place (which can include mini-amusement park type amenities) tied into the convention center via the land bridge could be the final piece of the puzzle for hosting a Super Bowl.  I doubt we get a Super Bowl in Brook Park. 

23 minutes ago, daybreaker said:

 

if the stadium moves to burke, upgrading the waterfront line and replacing the current stadium spot with a Gaylord resort type of place (which can include mini-amusement park type amenities) tied into the convention center via the land bridge could be the final piece of the puzzle for hosting a Super Bowl.  I doubt we get a Super Bowl in Brook Park. 

 

Let's stop pinning the hopes and dreams of Cleveland urban development on hosting a super bowl. 

I noticed the next act in the Haslam/DeWine Kabuki theatre was just introduced on the Cincinnati: Paycor Stadium Renovations thread.  Remember Cinci said a dome was out of the question? Looky here (or there on that thread) there are 2 beautiful Bengals dome renderings next to their thriving downtown backdrop.  I am sure Haslam's crony DeWine will suddenly rationalize a State contribution of $1 Billion+ each now for both - Cinci's exciting waterfront dome and for his Haslam, his long-time BFF's unwanted dome, smack in the middle of a ScoobyDoo ghost town with the only nearby visitor amenity being the notorius Brookpark Road upscale shopping district and hourly lodging zone (the international press will love it if a superbowl is ever played there).

Attention Mayor Bibb and Executive Ronayne: more State money (double +) may suddenly be on the table for a Lakefront Dome...

 

1 hour ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Let's stop pinning the hopes and dreams of Cleveland urban development on hosting a super bowl. 

Agreed. Look at the promises made before and during the Gateway project, and thirty years later, that area never spawned off  cohesive development. And that area is a hell of a lot more successful than what the Browns contributed to the city. E9/Lakeside has had a stadium for 95 years, yet virtually nothing else that urbanites, aka subsidizers, can enjoy or utilize. What the f have we been paying for then.

 

Perhaps it depends on the region, but sports are such an overrated economic engine. They're money pits in which cities, without any equity or profit sharing, dump 8-10 figures over time. $40 million more for the Q? Sure, let's just shake the money tree more. No other business gets those kinds of freebies and justifications, despite sports not generating positive ROI.

 

We've got to stop repeating past mistakes with these fictions. 

2 hours ago, daybreaker said:

 

if the stadium moves to burke, upgrading the waterfront line and replacing the current stadium spot with a Gaylord resort type of place (which can include mini-amusement park type amenities) tied into the convention center via the land bridge could be the final piece of the puzzle for hosting a Super Bowl.  I doubt we get a Super Bowl in Brook Park. 

I'm not saying fornone minute that I'm in support of a Brookpark stadium.  However we absolutely get a superbowl if theyre building a dome within a 2.3B development.  The NFL supports all inverstments as such.  

19 minutes ago, TBideon said:

No other business gets those kinds of freebies and justifications, despite sports not generating positive ROI.

 

Exactly true. Which is why these new lakefront plans really make it feel like announcing a deal to move to Brookpark was just a bargaining tactic to swing the public opinion on subsidies.

 

The frame has been shifted from financing a domed stadium on the lakefront vs. an undomed stadium in the lakefront, to leaving the city for a domed stadium in Brookpark (and potentially fighting a legal battle that might get the Modell law overturned) vs. financing an even shinier domed stadium on the lakefront as fast as bureaucratically possible.

 

So which one are we gonna pick?

20 minutes ago, sonisharri said:

 

Exactly true. Which is why these new lakefront plans really make it feel like announcing a deal to move to Brookpark was just a bargaining tactic to swing the public opinion on subsidies.

 

The frame has been shifted from financing a domed stadium on the lakefront vs. an undomed stadium in the lakefront, to leaving the city for a domed stadium in Brookpark (and potentially fighting a legal battle that might get the Modell law overturned) vs. financing an even shinier domed stadium on the lakefront as fast as bureaucratically possible.

 

So which one are we gonna pick?

Frame shifting is exactly what's happening... 

 

--

 

Anyways, Crains is trying to rain on the Burke stadium parade. They're right of course. 

 

Four reasons why a domed stadium at Burke probably won’t happen

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/sports-recreation/why-domed-stadium-browns-burke-unlikely#/Echobox=1730241801

13 hours ago, Jenny said:

I'm not saying fornone minute that I'm in support of a Brookpark stadium.  However we absolutely get a superbowl if theyre building a dome within a 2.3B development.  The NFL supports all inverstments as such.  

Not unless Haslam's "Crocker Barrell" Park development adds 5,000 hotel rooms to the Cleveland market... 

17 hours ago, Jenny said:

I'm not saying fornone minute that I'm in support of a Brookpark stadium.  However we absolutely get a superbowl if theyre building a dome within a 2.3B development.  The NFL supports all inverstments as such.  

 

Buffalo isn't getting a SB, dome or not. I don't get the hype, it's a REALLY bad deal for host cities.

 

https://cnr.ncsu.edu/news/2024/02/super-bowl-economic-impact/

 

https://lerner.udel.edu/seeing-opportunity/the-business-side-of-the-super-bowl/

 

https://lvsportsbiz.com/2024/01/27/las-vegas-paying-60-million-to-host-super-bowl-58-including-17-million-for-nfl-expense-reimbursement/

 

 

But back to the Lakefront (and the Burke site most likely never happening), maybe the site will be ready in 40 years for when the Browns expect another new stadium.

 

Edited October 30, 2024Oct 30 by GISguy

On 10/28/2024 at 9:02 PM, surfohio said:

 

Everyone at that station has been parroting the same identical talking points. I am sure its a coincidence! 

 

Ruiter has always been a shill.

 

Closing Burke is something that resonates beyond the urban core. If handled properly, this could be the unifying thing that everyone actually wants. 

Crain's read on Burke Dome. https://www.crainscleveland.com/sports-recreation/case-putting-cleveland-browns-dome-burke-airport

Hmmm.......Cleveland is the only container port on the Great Lakes and Burke is right next to the Port.   

 

https://logisticsmatter.com/boeing-just-patented-an-aircraft-that-picks-up-and-carries-regular-containers/

14 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

Hmmm.......Cleveland is the only container port on the Great Lakes and Burke is right next to the Port.   

 

https://logisticsmatter.com/boeing-just-patented-an-aircraft-that-picks-up-and-carries-regular-containers/

 

This is just a patent though, do they even have a working prototype?

 

And I feel like we've been over this before, but aren't Burke's runways too short for fully loaded cargo planes? 

The answer is always a new casino centric residential district. I'm talking to you, Yellowstone fans.

Never knew there was a Edgewater Beach cam

https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/parks/visit/parks/lakefront-reservation/edgewater-beach

Ideas to pay for the lakefront. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/we-follow-through/cleveland-eyes-a-new-tool-and-user-fees-as-a-way-to-remake-the-downtown-lakefront

Study says Brown's move to Brook Park will be huge economic loss. https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/a-browns-move-to-brook-park-will-deal-an-economic-blow-to-cleveland-study-says

9 hours ago, simplythis said:

Study says Brown's move to Brook Park will be huge economic loss. https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/a-browns-move-to-brook-park-will-deal-an-economic-blow-to-cleveland-study-says

Yes is a no brainer that Downtown will suffer greatly if moved out of downtown. That brook park land should either be folded into the CLE expansion plans or offered to the aerospace industry that is now expanding around the perimeter of the airport/NASA.

Thank you Mayor Bibb and Executive Ronayne for your nonstop advocacy for the people and what is right!

https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/11/13/how-much-could-browns-brook-park-move-cost-cleveland-cuyahoga-county/
 

how many studies have we seen that stadiums are not an economic driver...  the city complains about the amount of money for the stadium upkeep, and the guardians and cavaliers are asking for more money...  I say focus on the cavs and the guards and develop the lakefront without the stadium...  

The headline is very misleading.  The article says that the City gets about $11M in tax revenue generated by the Stadium, but also acknowledges that the City pays way more than that on maintaining and operating the stadium.  So in reality, the City is shedding a financial burden instead of losing a cash cow as the headline implies.

 

The article also states that the Stadium generates $30M in hotel, restaurant, and other economic activity for downtown.  I don't know how they calculated that, but the headline implies that 100% of that immediately disappears when the Stadium moves.  Even the article acknowledges that that won't happen because none of those amenities exist in Brookpark, nor will they any time soon.  Even when if/when those things are built in Brookpark, it's a stretch to think that absolutely everyone wants to spend their entire visit to Cleveland So I think it's a stretch to argue that the city will be losing tens of millions.

 

Every academic study (i.e. not commissioned by a team or municipality) that I've read has concluded that tax payer financed stadiums are basically economically neutral, or at best, the benefits are somewhat negligible.  Because this study was commissioned by the City, it's no surprise that they say moving the stadium will be a huge economic loss.  They are trying to leverage the Browns to staying on the Lakefront.

the amount of subsidy obviously matters to whether there are economic benefits 

One of my biggest takeaways from that report continues to be that a mixed use development would not only be completely out of place for this part of the county, but that it would also likely have a parasitic impact on the other mixed use developments in the region (plus downtown, obviously).

3 minutes ago, brownsfan1226 said:

One of my biggest takeaways from that report continues to be that a mixed use development would not only be completely out of place for this part of the county, but that it would also likely have a parasitic impact on the other mixed use developments in the region (plus downtown, obviously).

Two points we have all been making over and over in this thread and we aren't expert economic strategist.  This is obvious even to lay people without doing a fancy analysis. 

12 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Two points we have all been making over and over in this thread and we aren't expert economic strategist.  This is obvious even to lay people without doing a fancy analysis. 

And we can’t overlook the intangible benefits to remaining or rebuilding in the center city.  From the perspective of intangible assets, sports events can bring positive spillover effects and enhance civic pride… or called the psychic income that sports events may bring. These researchers say (1) sports events can generate social capital; (2) social capital can positively influence social identity; and (3) social identity can significantly impact event excitement, city attachment, and city pride in psychic income.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.938905/full

 

C

1 hour ago, Dino said:

They are trying to leverage the Browns to staying on the Lakefront.

Or setting the groundwork for defending themselves from an undoubtedly irate public when city and county moneys are refused for Brookpark, and Jimmy gaslights and threatens to leave the region.

Thanks again @Ardoonave for the awesome graphic!!

 

 

Go Browns! But where?
By Ken Prendergast / November 13, 2024

 

One of the most anticipated games in my early Cleveland Browns fandom came three days after Thanksgiving in 1979. The 8-4 Browns faced the hated Steelers at Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh where the Browns had yet to win. The Steelers were going for their fourth Super Bowl in the 1970s and the Browns were trying to get back to their glories of the prior three decades.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/11/13/go-browns-but-where/

56 minutes ago, KJP said:

Thanks again @Ardoonave for the awesome graphic!!

 

 

Go Browns! But where?
By Ken Prendergast / November 13, 2024

 

One of the most anticipated games in my early Cleveland Browns fandom came three days after Thanksgiving in 1979. The 8-4 Browns faced the hated Steelers at Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh where the Browns had yet to win. The Steelers were going for their fourth Super Bowl in the 1970s and the Browns were trying to get back to their glories of the prior three decades.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/11/13/go-browns-but-where/

Hey Ken, where do you keep this 1000 county worker number? To my knowledge from people I know who work in the jail there's nowhere close to 1000 workers there.The C.O number is around 400, down from 700 in the 1990s when someone in my unit worked down there.

 

If we include the sheriff's deputies and admin staff with the C.O.s then maybe we  approach the 700-800 number but to my understanding the bulk of the sheriff's won't be moving. Their job is to guard courtrooms and the courts among other tasks that are not jail related. They rarely are in the jails themselves other than prisoner transport. I only hear that some sheriff admin might move to this new jail. 

Edit:

 

I now see the link goes to the sheriff's website. However, most of those jobs will not be moving with the jail. You will lose about 400 to Garfield the rest will end up with wherever the new courthouse is. 

 

Edited November 13, 2024Nov 13 by KFM44107

I do think the idea of placing a new stadium on the Burke site is by far the best choice. Unfortunately Haslam is not going to wait until the land is available so that idea is probably a non-starter.

 

I also agree replacing the stadium with a conceptional idea like the presentation is a much, much better use of the land. But again, in order to pull that plan off we would need an inordinate amount of money. If you couple this idea with developing the riverfront as well a a new jail, a new courthouse not to mention building Haslam his dome...well you see, NEO does not have the money to pull off even half of those beautiful ideas. 

 

It's too bad though. If we could find a way Cleveland would be transformed. It's just not going to happen. My prediction is we build the jail and courthouse. And we build some version of the riverfront. We keep Burke an airport and as for the Browns...all bets are off. Anything is possible including moving the team out of the area.

 

Again I shout into the void, where does the money come from? $1.4B+ in public funds plus whatever it costs to change roads, etc. for a Brook Park dome is certainly going to negatively impact Cleveland’s ability to fund and push forward its own lakefront redevelopment. 

6 hours ago, KJP said:

Thanks again @Ardoonave for the awesome graphic!!

 

 

Go Browns! But where?
By Ken Prendergast / November 13, 2024

 

One of the most anticipated games in my early Cleveland Browns fandom came three days after Thanksgiving in 1979. The 8-4 Browns faced the hated Steelers at Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh where the Browns had yet to win. The Steelers were going for their fourth Super Bowl in the 1970s and the Browns were trying to get back to their glories of the prior three decades.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/11/13/go-browns-but-where/

Thanks @KJP - A great breakdown of the logical and the possible and the difficult distinction between "what has always been" and "what could be".  Having no inside information, I have to think that the Brookpark move is  indeed what will eventually happen - BUT - if all the "powers that be" in the city really go "all-in" and dedicate themselves to an early close for Burke  maybe, just maybe - the Haslams might reconsider their thinking.  Maybe a new Cleveland-based stadium is still possible with the best of both worlds - 1) adjacent to downtown  - with 2) a huge new lakefront parcel open for a smarter, growth-oriented future.  It may be hard to see it for many of us right now - especially after all the years of significant population loss and the old Cleveland mentality about being unable to make big things happen - but - wow,  with the amount of land that we have available immediately adjacent to downtown -  the future could be more amazing for this city than we think.   Might take a few decades to get near @Ardoonave's amazing vision - but, as the future is unwritten -  it is currently in the realm of "the possible."   This all might be simply wild-eyed optimism, but I choose to keep hoping.... for now..

Edited November 14, 2024Nov 14 by CleveFan

 

Look to Milwaukee to rid lakefront of freight trains
By Ken Prendergast / December 1, 2024

 

One month ago, the Wisconsin Department of Transportation (WisDOT) won a $72.8 million federal grant to reroute freight train traffic south of the Menomonee River and away from Downtown Milwaukee. The project has many similarities to a local concept for rerouting most freight traffic south of Downtown Cleveland, away from the lakefront.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/12/01/look-to-milwaukee-to-rid-lakefront-of-freight-trains/

One potential positive of Browns Stadium moving is now Muni Lot will have no real use. To me this opens the opportunity to jump start the redevelopment of the Muni Lot into true TOD that utilizes the most isolated station we have. It also can be a development that we work on while the city waits for the Burke Airport to close (hopefully). If the city/RTA can figure out a way to connect the Muni Lot to Burke then we'd have a vibrant area all around that would rival anything in the Midwest and potentially the country. 

 

I won't put any ideas I have on here for the Muni Lot because I feel that it all depends on what is built on the riverfront from now until the Browns stadium closes. With all of the available land opening up I'm not worried about the loss of the stadium, the revenue can be replaced and honestly increased if we really wanted to. 

I believe this was going to happen no matter the outcome of the stadium 

1 hour ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

I believe this was going to happen no matter the outcome of the stadium 

It will be a lot less of a fuss now though since there will be no major use for it anymore. 

1 hour ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

I believe this was going to happen no matter the outcome of the stadium 

That was the plan, but I was a bit skeptical of it, and I clearly wasn't alone. I'd argue moving the stadium to Burke would have made developing the Muni Lot even less likely. Moving to Brook Park though means these surface lots are even less useful, and that there won't be any substantial moneyed interest defending them behind the scenes. That shouldn't matter, and hopefully they get developed regardless of where the Browns go or don't go, but I like the odds better if the Browns are playing in Brook Park. 

3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

It will be a lot less of a fuss now though since there will be no major use for it anymore. 

The Muni lot was very convenient for the weekly Cleveland Food Bank drive thru food giveaways to the needy. I believe they started during Covid but extended into the last year given the need. Seeing the seemingly endless lines cars was a great reminder of how many are struggling out there as we have fun arguing the merits of slimy Jimmy’s suburban fantasy playground and parking lot. Losing more tax dollars and jobs to the burbs will continue to undermine funding for our social safety net.

2 hours ago, Willo said:

The Muni lot was very convenient for the weekly Cleveland Food Bank drive thru food giveaways to the needy. I believe they started during Covid but extended into the last year given the need. Seeing the seemingly endless lines cars was a great reminder of how many are struggling out there as we have fun arguing the merits of slimy Jimmy’s suburban fantasy playground and parking lot. Losing more tax dollars and jobs to the burbs will continue to undermine funding for our social safety net.

I drove by the Cleveland Food bank line every Thursday and there were a lot of expensive cars and trucks in that line. They outweighed the beater cars.

17 hours ago, stpats44113 said:

I drove by the Cleveland Food bank line every Thursday and there were a lot of expensive cars and trucks in that line. They outweighed the beater cars.

I used to volunteer there a few times to help check-in and verify the orders and pack the cars and a lot of people in the line are picking up for the people that need it. A lot of people who utilize the food bank can't afford a car or just can't drive so family members and friends will pick it up. So I wouldn't be quick to judge based off of car looks. 

 

Sorry for the off topic tangent lol. I'm just a big fan of how great the Cleveland Food Bank is. 

19 hours ago, stpats44113 said:

I drove by the Cleveland Food bank line every Thursday and there were a lot of expensive cars and trucks in that line. They outweighed the beater cars.

I am glad to hear the weekly drive thru continues though no longer at the Muni lot. We understand the optics but we assume some pool their family resources to housing then to transportation. Not directly related to use of the weekly food bank but believe the 96 welfare reform act stopped penalizing benefits for car owner’s especially when Clinton’s goal was to encourage employment but transportation was recognized even to be a key barrier to jobs.