Also posted under today’s Jimmy PR release…

Has anyone seen yesterday’s City Club with DOT Secretary Pete Buttigieg in case Burke and the lakefront came up? 

otherwise we hope Bibb, Ronayne and Huang huddled with Pete on the topic afterwards.

 

https://www.cityclub.org/forums/2024/12/09/a-conversation-with-us-secretary-of-transportation-pete-buttigieg

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/whats-next/pete-buttigieg-speaks-city-club-of-cleveland/95-cec82a9e-5c48-4586-90ef-9f9d440d5eb2

 

8 hours ago, Willo said:

Also posted under today’s Jimmy PR release…

Has anyone seen yesterday’s City Club with DOT Secretary Pete Buttigieg in case Burke and the lakefront came up? 

otherwise we hope Bibb, Ronayne and Huang huddled with Pete on the topic afterwards.

 

https://www.cityclub.org/forums/2024/12/09/a-conversation-with-us-secretary-of-transportation-pete-buttigieg

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/whats-next/pete-buttigieg-speaks-city-club-of-cleveland/95-cec82a9e-5c48-4586-90ef-9f9d440d5eb2

 

Just had a chance to watch the entire City Club event - no mention of Burke but Mayor Bibb opened with story when they were on the rooftop of the Hilton and per Bibb, Buttigieg said - Mr Mayor you have the most undeveloped coastline in America (I noticed he did not say we had the most undeveloped potenailly hazardous industrial land in Brook Park). 

Ouch - but Sec. Pete and DOT came thru with $60 million toward the lakefront cap weeks later.  Now why would Dee and Jimmy not want to take advantage of and be part of this opportunity that Sec. Pete pinpointed in just one visit and look-see.

Why is Burke's shutdown so important to lakefront development? There are plenty of underutilized lakefront parcels downtown, the neighborhoods, and east/west counties. Why not start small - like better access to Whiskey Island, which people actually use.

 

Another 400+ acres of barren land along the lake would require mind-boggling costs for remediation, expanding Richmond Hts airport, fines, etc, never mind the utter lack of consumer, tenant and developer demand. We can't even fill most of the Flats despite that land being far more available and usable.

 

All realistic lakefront development plans shouldn't even breathe the words Browns or Burke.

15 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Why not start small - like better access to Whiskey Island, which people actually use.

What did you have in mind? Replacing Willow Avenue Bridge? or something more ambitious? 

18 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Why is Burke's shutdown so important to lakefront development? There are plenty of underutilized lakefront parcels downtown, the neighborhoods, and east/west counties. Why not start small - like better access to Whiskey Island, which people actually use.

 

Another 400+ acres of barren land along the lake would require mind-boggling costs for remediation, expanding Richmond Hts airport, fines, etc, never mind the utter lack of consumer, tenant and developer demand. We can't even fill most of the Flats despite that land being far more available and usable.

 

All realistic lakefront development plans shouldn't even breathe the words Browns or Burke.

 

Future planning. It's not like you wave a wand and Burke shuts immediately. It's most likely a decades long process. I mean, just look at how long CHEERS is going to take just down the way. 

Burke Lakefront generates an annual net operating loss of $1.2M.    If closed, most of its $76M in economic impact will remain in the area.  CLE has plenty of capacity, and CAK is just 51 miles away, being fully capable as a reliever airport.

 

Corporate aircraft and private pilots don't need 400 acres of prime lakefront. 

40 minutes ago, Ethan said:

What did you have in mind? Replacing Willow Avenue Bridge? or something more ambitious? 

Expanding the Wendy Park bridge for traffic would be huge.

37 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Expanding the Wendy Park bridge for traffic would be huge.

No, it wouldn't. Why would you want more cars there?

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

Future planning. It's not like you wave a wand and Burke shuts immediately. It's most likely a decades long process. I mean, just look at how long CHEERS is going to take just down the way. 

CHEERS is a bit different,  It will take a while to complete since it needs to be filled in piece by piece using dredging material.

41 minutes ago, Growth Mindset said:

No, it wouldn't. Why would you want more cars there?

Because Wendy Park/Whiskey Island is incredibly underutilized and hard to find and access. The pedestrian bridge is wonderful, but if it were rebuilt to allow cars, that area would really take off as a full year destination. IMO.

 

Edited December 11, 2024Dec 11 by TBideon

10 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Because Wendy Park/Whiskey Island is incredibly underutilized and hard to find and access. The pedestrian bridge is wonderful, but if it were rebuilt to allow cars, that area would really take off as a full year destination. IMO.

 

Eh, cars are pretty fast, from W25th and Detroit that would result in a five minute time savings. Really not a lot. 

 

The metroparks has plans to purchase the Ontario Stone parcel across the tracks. I'm sure they'll put a small amount of parking there for precisely the reason you mentioned (hopefully not too much). That would be a better solution to the problem you raised. 

5 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Because Wendy Park/Whiskey Island is incredibly underutilized and hard to find and access. The pedestrian bridge is wonderful, but if it were rebuilt to allow cars, that area would really take off as a full year destination. IMO.

I disagree.  For one, any lakeside parcel is going to be cold and windy in the winter -- easier access alone will not make it "really take off as a full year destination."

 

Second, there is already convenient parking in the area, and for those of us who know about it it's not that hard to get to. The "underutilized and hard to find" problems could be addressed in other ways -- how about more marketing so that more people know about it and how to get to it, and better signage to help people get there and have ideas of where to go and what to do once they're there.  I would also advertise the bike and pedestrian access, even though most Americans are loathe to walk further than the middle of a Walmart parking lot.

 

Moreover, we have so little bike and pedestrian infrastructure, places where we can bike or walk without 3000-lb cars bearing down on us.  We need more places where my five-year-old can ride his bike and wobble in independence, let's not add cars to the rare and beautiful bike/ped bridge at Wendy Park! 

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

Because Wendy Park/Whiskey Island is incredibly underutilized and hard to find and access. The pedestrian bridge is wonderful, but if it were rebuilt to allow cars, that area would really take off as a full year destination. IMO.

 

Not sure how much longer the Main Ave bridge is going to last.  Rather than rebuilding it, maybe a less costly option would be to extend Whiskey Island Dr across the river and connect to the proposed Shoreway Blvd which is slated to end at W 3rd.  Of course it would require some kind of lift bridge over the river. Then, the old section of the west Shoreway could be removed and the area opened up for development.

 

Edited December 11, 2024Dec 11 by LibertyBlvd

13 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Because Wendy Park/Whiskey Island is incredibly underutilized and hard to find and access. The pedestrian bridge is wonderful, but if it were rebuilt to allow cars, that area would really take off as a full year destination. IMO.

 

 

Awful idea.

14 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Not sure how much longer the Main Ave bridge is going to last.  Rather than replacing it with a new bridge, maybe a better option would be to extend Whiskey Island Dr across the river and connect to the new shoreway blvd.  Of course it would require some kind of lift bridge over the river.

I always thought running a gondola across the river from the Flats would be a good solution. It accomplishes several things. It allows direct travel across the river to both sides, would be an attraction to the area, and would probably be less expensive than a bridge. 

38 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

The lakeshore begins to curve north at Edgewater Park.   All those places are east of it and therefore vulnerable to the cold winter winds coming off the lake.   Those get harsh, trust me on this.   :0

 

Getting people to go to those places in the winter will be a serious challenge.

Tons of people go to Dike 14 to bird watch in crappy conditions. I was out at Chapin Forest XC skiing this past weekend and lots of folks were still out there in spite of the pretty aggressive windchill. I think if you build a place for four seasons you're in a decent spot. There's plenty of people in this town that enjoy the winter and crap weather that comes with it - add some warming huts on the outer reaches of Burke and some groomed xc ski/snowshoeing trails and rentals and I bet the people show up. Buffalo has some MTB trails/small rock park/pump track as part of their outer harbor revamp and it's pretty popular. Same goes for the trails on the water side. If you can't beat the weather, join it. 

Edited December 11, 2024Dec 11 by GISguy

2 hours ago, TBideon said:

1. If weather is such an issue, then why continue talking about lakefront development at all? Whiskey Island/Wendy Park isn't colder than Browns stadium, Burke, 55th Marina, etc, and I imagine the goals for those developments are full year destinations, not just summer.

 

2. Parking is convenient but getting there extremely difficult. Better directions would help since driving along that industrial s**t is confusing. But better access is still, IMO, the most important solution.

 

3. It was just a hypothetical. Pedestrians would have outer lanes, cars inner. Or vice versa. Whatever it takes to draw more visitors.

Weather is only an issue for the weather-averse, as others have noted there are plenty of places where people do want to go in the winter.  (And if we redevelop around Burke I would expect a significant part of it to be -- buildings that people go to year-round.)  

 

More importantly, if Wendy Park isn't a winter destination now, it's not going to be a winter destination for many more people if we make the drive shorter.  I can think of quite a few higher priorities for our limited funds than making the drive to Wendy Park more direct. I understand that there are other people, such as yourself apparently, who want to be able to drive directly on the shortest route possible to their favorite outdoor place.

 

 

5 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

Future planning. It's not like you wave a wand and Burke shuts immediately. It's most likely a decades long process. I mean, just look at how long CHEERS is going to take just down the way. 

Someone who went to the ULI conference a few months ago said they heard from someone that for a city over a certain population, Cleveland has "the worst waterfront in the world" in terms of public access, and the "harshest" waterfront in terms of the percentage of land along the water that is concrete, not natural surface, etc. I don't know where these figures came from or if it's true, but I'd believe it. Nearly all of the lakefront property in this city isn't open to the public. And a huge chunk of what is is still parking lots. We need major change. 

 

 

I feel like people aren't considering if we don't start closing it now, that just means another 20+ years minimum of it sitting there losing money. If Burke had already closed, or the process was already started, a new Browns dome would be going there instead of Brook Park and construction would start soon. I don't care if it's entirely empty park land for the first 10 years. If it's not ready to go if we were to get another supposed $3.6 billion project, then the city misses out on another $3.6 billion dollar project. We need to put the waterfront back in the hands of us Cleveland residents. 

Edited December 11, 2024Dec 11 by PlanCleveland

On 12/10/2024 at 10:28 AM, dwolfi01 said:

I used to volunteer there a few times to help check-in and verify the orders and pack the cars and a lot of people in the line are picking up for the people that need it. A lot of people who utilize the food bank can't afford a car or just can't drive so family members and friends will pick it up. So I wouldn't be quick to judge based off of car looks. 

 

Sorry for the off topic tangent lol. I'm just a big fan of how great the Cleveland Food Bank is. 

The Cleveland Food Bank is fantastic. Having other people pick up food for someone who can’t afford a car is not something I considered so thanks for sharing. 

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

Someone who went to the ULI conference a few months ago said they heard from someone that for a city over a certain population, Cleveland has "the worst waterfront in the world" in terms of public access, and the "harshest" waterfront in terms of the percentage of land along the water that is concrete, not natural surface, etc. I don't know where these figures came from or if it's true, but I'd believe it. Nearly all of the lakefront property in this city isn't open to the public. And a huge chunk of what is is still parking lots. We need major change. 

 

 

I feel like people aren't considering if we don't start closing it now, that just means another 20+ years minimum of it sitting there losing money. If Burke had already closed, or the process was already started, a new Browns dome would be going there instead of Brook Park and construction would start soon. I don't care if it's entirely empty park land for the first 10 years. If it's not ready to go if we were to get another supposed $3.6 billion project, then the city misses out on another $3.6 billion dollar project. We need to put the waterfront back in the hands of us Cleveland residents. 

A Browns stadium was never going to Burke, not with Jimmy owning the team and wanting to see and enjoy whatever is built. The guy doesn't want a dome in Burke when/if he's 85; he wants to see his investment while some good years remain - and that means 2029. Wherever it ends up. 

 

And yes the lakefront is dogs**t for the most part, but look at all the lame commentary - wah wah TBideon, you must be a carcentric fool with your terrible idea - when I suggested a hypothetical project grounded in reality to improve access to one of the very few lakefront attractions.

 

I swear people would rather live in fantasy and pretend some pie-in-the-sky project will magically appear and reverse the city and region's trajectory rather than acknowledge reality and work with what we already have. 

Wendy Park is always busy when I'm there.

good luck getting a volleyball court anytime after work during summers lol. I run on the path by there all summer and they are full all the time. 

Dewine to meet with Bibb. https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/browns/dewine-to-meet-with-bibb-about-lakefront-as-browns-move-looms

 

Cleveland wins second big lakefront grant
By Ken Prendergast / January 10, 2025

 

Today, the city of Cleveland announced that it was awarded $69.3 million from the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) for its ambitious downtown lakefront redevelopment. This is the second major federal grant for the downtown lakefront since October when the city was awarded $59.7 million from the USDOT. Construction is due to start in 2027.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/01/10/cleveland-wins-second-big-lakefront-grant/

What is not clear to me, is when they tear down the existing Main Avenue bridge and lower the Shoreway, are they going to construct a new bridge over the Cuyahoga river?   And if they do, it has to be high enough to let freighters go under it on their way up the Cuyahoga river.

 

Otherwise, the plans look good to me.

Bridge stays up over the river. it'll ramp down and end on w3

Great news but I would be sad to lose this. I love the look of the brick street and structural steel. 

 

 

Edited January 10Jan 10 by surfohio

Will the bridge require a steeper incline up and/or an onramp from W 3rd? Or will it essentially need to be rebuilt from W 3rd-westward to avoid that issue?

I reckon they could fill in the wall and remove the one way road then remove the bridge to W 3rd after that without affecting the existing truss work over the brick Main Ave. Add some modern overhead lighting, plantings, and updated sidewalk - boom. I'm not a bridge engineer though so don't quote me on that lol

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

Bridge stays up over the river. it'll ramp down and end on w3

But for how long?  The Main Ave bridge it getting to the end of it's lifespan.

6 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

I reckon they could fill in the wall and remove the one way road then remove the bridge to W 3rd after that without affecting the existing truss work over the brick Main Ave. Add some modern overhead lighting, plantings, and updated sidewalk - boom. I'm not a bridge engineer though so don't quote me on that lol

I was thinking the same thing. I imagine they will just redo the existing entrance/exit ramps into the city, and the bridge will mostly look the same west of W6th. 

 

All of this also makes me think the County has picked, or heavily prefers, The Pit for the new courthouse buildings. It just fits in too perfectly with the shoreway changes, and would be a prime site almost everyone would see as they enter the city. It would also make the WFL much more useful on weekdays, being only about 250ft away from the W3 stop. 

 

@KJP has the layouts in this article. 

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/12/18/three-big-county-projects-about-to-advance/

13 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

But for how long?  The Main Ave bridge it getting to the end of it's lifespan.

This is a common refrain, but is the claim that the bridge can't be repaired/renovated? Normally when a bridge reaches the "end of it's life" it's shut down for a little bit while repairs take place and then it's reopened. This isn't my area of expertise, but I can't imagine the smart economic decision is to knock this bridge over entirely. I would think repairing it makes more sense. Lots of sunk cost that is effectively lost if it is demolished. And there aren't that many bridges over the navigable portion of the Cuyahoga. I'd bet against this bridge being demolished in the near future. 

21 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

But for how long?  The Main Ave bridge it getting to the end of it's lifespan.

wow I did not know it was approaching 100 years old!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Avenue_Bridge

I mean the Brooklyn Bridge is pretty dang old...

16 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

wow I did not know it was approaching 100 years old!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Avenue_Bridge

A bit off topic, but I have an old postcard from when it and Lakeview Terrace were brand new. 

 

40 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I was thinking the same thing. I imagine they will just redo the existing entrance/exit ramps into the city, and the bridge will mostly look the same west of W6th. 

 

All of this also makes me think the County has picked, or heavily prefers, The Pit for the new courthouse buildings. It just fits in too perfectly with the shoreway changes, and would be a prime site almost everyone would see as they enter the city. It would also make the WFL much more useful on weekdays, being only about 250ft away from the W3 stop. 

 

@KJP has the layouts in this article. 

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/12/18/three-big-county-projects-about-to-advance/

 

@PlanCleveland Except that the West 3rd Street station (and the East 9th station) are to be replaced by a Waterfront Line station at a new multimodal hub.

9 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

@PlanCleveland Except that the West 3rd Street station (and the East 9th station) are to be replaced by a Waterfront Line station at a new multimodal hub.

Oh I didn't realize the W3rd station would go too. Darn, I guess I'll just go back to sifting through Ronayne's garbage for clues...

22 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

This is so goofy. Just have it taper off onto Lakeside and open all that land for development. Complete missed opportunity. But don’t worry, the eight lane “boulevard” is gonna open the lakefront up. 

31 minutes ago, noname said:

This is so goofy. Just have it taper off onto Lakeside and open all that land for development. Complete missed opportunity. But don’t worry, the eight lane “boulevard” is gonna open the lakefront up. 

Agree. Just widen the current eastbound ramp onto Lakeside to bring traffic in both directions. That’s all that needs to be done. West 3rd intersection is a block away. 

I thought have it start/end on w3 and get rid of the lakeside ramp. then you could build and have a long block of apartments from w3-w9. having development at the end of w6 would be pretty cool and give whd more of a neighborhood feel

10 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Agree. Just widen the current eastbound ramp onto Lakeside to bring traffic in both directions. That’s all that needs to be done. West 3rd intersection is a block away. 

Traffic engineers gonna traffic engineer. Don’t worry, we’ll get another chance in 100 years. 

18 hours ago, Ethan said:

This is a common refrain, but is the claim that the bridge can't be repaired/renovated? 

Does it make sense to spend several millions of dollars to repair or rebuild the Main Ave bridge if the west shoreway is basically ending at W 3rd? It is likely fewer vehicles would be using it when that happens as it would basically be a bridge to nowhere.  Maybe a better idea would be to just remove it once it is deemed unsafe for travel and have vehicles use the Detroit/Superior bridge.  That would open a large chunk of land for development.

 

Edited January 11Jan 11 by LibertyBlvd

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-wins-69-million-federal-grant-for-lakefront-land-bridge-and-shoreway-makeover

3 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Does it make sense to spend several millions of dollars to repair or rebuild the Main Ave bridge if the west shoreway is basically ending at W 3rd? It is likely fewer vehicles would be using it when that happens.  Maybe a better idea would be to just remove it once it is deemed unsafe for travel and have vehicles use the Detroit/Superior bridge.

 

I have a feeling we're going to keep hearing that this bridge is "at the end of its useful life" for the next fifty years while people continue to use it.

17 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Does it make sense to spend several millions of dollars to repair or rebuild the Main Ave bridge if the west shoreway is basically ending at W 3rd? It is likely fewer vehicles would be using it when that happens.  Maybe a better idea would be to just remove it once it is deemed unsafe for travel and have vehicles use the Detroit/Superior bridge.

 

I'm a big fan of historic bridges so I'm not gonna say I support demolition, but if it's determined that that's the most realistic option then it would be interesting to see it replaced with something similar to what was there before.

 

A direct pedestrian connection between the flats East/West banks would be extremely valuable IMO. 

 

2 minutes ago, sonisharri said:

 

I'm a big fan of historic bridges so I'm not gonna say I support demolition, but if it's determined that that's the most realistic option then it would be interesting to see it replaced with something similar to what was there before.

 

A direct pedestrian connection between the flats East/West banks would be extremely valuable IMO. 

 

 

Actually, here's an even crazier idea as improbable as it may be... renovate the Eagle Ave Lift Bridge into a new ped/bike bridge across Main Ave. Both spans are about 300ft.

15 hours ago, sonisharri said:

A direct pedestrian connection between the flats East/West banks would be extremely valuable IMO. 

I agree.  It would certainly be more valuable than the bridge at the harbor.

I am another big advocate of this. Would like to see the day where you could walk from East ninth at the rock ‘n’ roll Hall of Fame to the flats Eastbank comfortably and then up the river at least to Canal basin Park. All safely and seamlessly.

5 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I am another big advocate of this. Would like to see the day where you could walk from East ninth at the rock ‘n’ roll Hall of Fame to the flats Eastbank comfortably and then up the river at least to Canal basin Park. All safely and seamlessly.

@KJP confirms that this is in the works (yellow line)