January 20Jan 20 3 hours ago, Cleburger said: IMO this area doesn't really need anything more than public access via a boardwalk, and maybe some small green space. Once again this is the lakefront....but it's also the east side of the mouth of the Cuyahoga river, inside the harbor break wall. Storms bring muddy water, dead fish, trash and lots of floating trees (along with an occasional decomposing body). It's not a pristine beach that you'd want to dangle your toes in. This kind of "lakefront" site might be better viewed from a distance, perhaps from the inside of a restaurant or apartment (luxury or not). Amen, and that’s what’s frustrating in my opinion is that Bibbs Lakefront plans has beaches, lawns and concert areas in place of where Luxury Apartments would go under Haslam as this is the “mandate” his constituents gave him in the public feedback. This area is in the midst of a working Port, they are building an Eastside beach with the park revamp and west has a Beach. This is not the place for that stuff and this I feel is why Jimmy went to BP because Bibb won’t back down from this as ”the people have spoken”
January 20Jan 20 1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said: I would take one further step--move the Mather to either coast guard side of the 9th St Pier, or the north side of that old wharf around the corner from it's current location (would probably require coast guard approval as that is a navigation channel). Then we make it into our cruise ship terminal. One of a kind!
January 20Jan 20 36 minutes ago, Cleburger said: I would take one further step--move the Mather to either coast guard side of the 9th St Pier, or the north side of that old wharf around the corner from it's current location (would probably require coast guard approval as that is a navigation channel). Then we make it into our cruise ship terminal. One of a kind! Agree. The cruise ship terminal should be a focal point, and something grand looking as a first impression for visitors. Not a tucked away shack like the current situation.
January 20Jan 20 3 hours ago, Cleburger said: I would take one further step--move the Mather to either coast guard side of the 9th St Pier, or the north side of that old wharf around the corner from it's current location (would probably require coast guard approval as that is a navigation channel). Then we make it into our cruise ship terminal. One of a kind! The Mather definitely needs to be moved. At 618 feet, It takes up way too much space at its current location. Perhaps a better location would be somewhere in the Flats. Of course it would have to be in a subchannel which doesn't interfere with river navigation. Edited January 20Jan 20 by LibertyBlvd
January 20Jan 20 It's cool and all to see cruise ships coming to Cleveland, but realistically we're talking a few dozen visits by ships disembarking 100-400 passengers. It's a rounding error to Downtown's overall visitorship, so I'm not sure how grand we want the investment to be. Certainly could be nicer than the little shack down by the lake, though. https://www.greatlakescruises.com/great-lakes-cruise-lines.html
January 20Jan 20 24 minutes ago, X said: It's cool and all to see cruise ships coming to Cleveland, but realistically we're talking a few dozen visits by ships disembarking 100-400 passengers. It's a rounding error to Downtown's overall visitorship, so I'm not sure how grand we want the investment to be. Certainly could be nicer than the little shack down by the lake, though. https://www.greatlakescruises.com/great-lakes-cruise-lines.html Same as the airport, it's a first impression.
January 20Jan 20 2 minutes ago, E Rocc said: Same as the airport, it's a first impression. Difference of tens of thousands and ~10 million. Also actually developing the lakefront will go a long way in improving first impressions for cruise ship passengers.
January 20Jan 20 For perspective.... Cruise ship passengers arriving the Port of Cleveland in 2023 -- 10,000 Amtrak passengers arriving at Cleveland's Lakefront Station in 2023 -- 48,784 Cruise ships that hang around for a day or two in broad daylight are a bit more visible than Cleveland's middle-of-the-night trains. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 20Jan 20 They're an affluent bunch, too. But not many in numbers. One of the hardest thing when we consider the many different urban investments that a city could make is keeping an appropriate sense of proportion- 10,000 people is a lot, but not even a single Monsters game, let alone a Cavs game, let alone the 20k or so that live in Downtown every day or the however many that come into an office on an average weekday.
January 21Jan 21 4 hours ago, X said: It's cool and all to see cruise ships coming to Cleveland, but realistically we're talking a few dozen visits by ships disembarking 100-400 passengers. It's a rounding error to Downtown's overall visitorship, so I'm not sure how grand we want the investment to be. Certainly could be nicer than the little shack down by the lake, though. https://www.greatlakescruises.com/great-lakes-cruise-lines.html That's why the Mather makes sense. It's already here. Cut a hole in the side of her, install a door and ramps, and cruise ship passengers all get a free ticket to tour her. I don't think the infrastructure would cost more than $1 million, as long as they can figure out the ADA accessibility. it's some fabrication, ramps and pilings.
January 21Jan 21 20 hours ago, Luke_S said: Difference of tens of thousands and ~10 million. Also actually developing the lakefront will go a long way in improving first impressions for cruise ship passengers. The difference between the two. The vast majority of passengers at CLE both depart and arrive there. Cruise ship passengers are 99% visitors that have likely never been here before.
January 21Jan 21 ^ Plus, being an affluent group who may be visiting for the first time tends to add weight to their presence. IF we can create a pleasurable experience that defies expectations they become ambassadors the next time sombody badmouths Cleveland in a random conversation. Changing expectations one mind at a time.
January 21Jan 21 55 minutes ago, cadmen said: ^ Plus, being an affluent group who may be visiting for the first time tends to add weight to their presence. IF we can create a pleasurable experience that defies expectations they become ambassadors the next time sombody badmouths Cleveland in a random conversation. Changing expectations one mind at a time. Or potential investors. Wasn’t the Euclid Grand done by the principal of Alto, visiting here from Istanbul for the GOP convention? I believe they’ve done some other things downtown around Erieview since. All because of a visit.
January 21Jan 21 21 hours ago, KJP said: For perspective.... Cruise ship passengers arriving the Port of Cleveland in 2023 -- 10,000 Amtrak passengers arriving at Cleveland's Lakefront Station in 2023 -- 48,784 Cruise ships that hang around for a day or two in broad daylight are a bit more visible than Cleveland's middle-of-the-night trains. A while back, it was reported that Amtrak was planning to add more trains through Cleveland. Is that still going to happen?
January 22Jan 22 6 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: A while back, it was reported that Amtrak was planning to add more trains through Cleveland. Is that still going to happen? Lots of planning steps to through before there's a go/no-go decision with many outs along the way. Discuss more here.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 24Jan 24 At best, federal funds for major projects on hold By Ken Prendergast / January 24, 2025 Millions, if not hundreds of millions of federal tax dollars awarded to local infrastructure and energy projects may be at risk from a 90-day funding freeze and review mandated earlier this week by the new Trump Administration. That possibility was raised today at the first board meeting of the year for Greater Cleveland’s metropolitan planning organization (MPO) which distributes federal funds to transportation and air quality programs. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2025/01/24/at-best-federal-funds-for-major-projects-on-hold/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 24Jan 24 3 hours ago, Cleburger said: Welp maybe our status as a red MAGA state will help Ohio in this regard? Ohio is fine - we need to worry about NEO. Our NEO leaders have to try to engage them on each of our crtitical needs - we can't afford to wait fours years without trying - make them say no to each request.
January 27Jan 27 I had a thought and do not know if it was previously addressed. If Burke was to be closed soon, why couldn't the existing stadium be outfitted with a roof if The Haslam's so desire?
January 27Jan 27 4 hours ago, dave2017 said: I had a thought and do not know if it was previously addressed. If Burke was to be closed soon, why couldn't the existing stadium be outfitted with a roof if The Haslam's so desire? I would assume for the same reasons Cincy recently rejected the idea. It’s enormously expensive. The roof addition alone was a billion dollars not including another 800 million plus in needed renovations. At that point its pointless to do and you might as well just build a new stadium is basically the conclusion. Edited January 27Jan 27 by 646empire
February 5Feb 5 https://thelandcle.org/stories/uss-clevelands-return-to-its-namesake-city-a-historic-community-initiative-and-navy-legacy/ “With the ship set to arrive in Cleveland in September 2025, the next couple of years are all about getting the community involved and hyped. The commissioning ceremony itself is expected to draw thousands of people….. And once the ship finishes its service? The vision is to bring it back to Cleveland as a museum, likely near Voinovich Park, right alongside the Cod and the Mather.“ event on the horizon and a museum in the future
February 5Feb 5 20 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said: ht And once the ship finishes its service? The vision is to bring it back to Cleveland as a museum, likely near Voinovich Park, right alongside the Cod and the Mather.“ The future of this class of ship (several unbuilt hulls have been cancelled) is being debated in the Navy. "Too big to do X and too small to do Y" kind of problem. The class is thought to be a good "foreign military sales" candidate. If that happens, there may not be much to bring home. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
February 12Feb 12 ^ yes thats exactly it — the usefulness of littoral ships is questionable. that said, i toured one here in staten during fleet week and they are amazing ships and needless to say the crew was awesome, including a couple ohioans we met. they described their mission as moving material and marines around.
February 12Feb 12 6 hours ago, mrnyc said: ^ yes thats exactly it — the usefulness of littoral ships is questionable. that said, i toured one here in staten during fleet week and they are amazing ships and needless to say the crew was awesome, including a couple ohioans we met. they described their mission as moving material and marines around. My dad was on a troop transport in Vietnam and just before that he did his training on the Great Lakes near Chicago. I was wondering, does the US Navy still have some kind of presence in Cleveland? I thought I remembered seeing Navy officers and sailors all around the city back in the 1990's.
February 12Feb 12 1 hour ago, surfohio said: My dad was on a troop transport in Vietnam and just before that he did his training on the Great Lakes near Chicago. I was wondering, does the US Navy still have some kind of presence in Cleveland? I thought I remembered seeing Navy officers and sailors all around the city back in the 1990's. yes i think there has been some kind of occasional great lakes navy fleet week in the past with ship visits? but maybe i am mistaking that with tall ships or something else? not sure.
February 12Feb 12 The Navy had a facility at E 9th. My brother who served in the Navy had to go there for monthly meetings while in active duty. Is that facility just for the Coast Guard now?
February 12Feb 12 16 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: The Navy had a facility at E 9th. My brother who served in the Navy had to go there for monthly meetings while in active duty. Is that facility just for the Coast Guard now? I believe it is just USCG. Didn't the Navy also have the payroll facility over there by 72nd/MLK back then?
February 12Feb 12 Yes, I remember that. It was the Navy Finance Center. Then they changed to DFAS which apparently handles all branches of miliary. I thought that moved to the Federal Building, but Google maps still shows it as DFAS.
February 13Feb 13 17 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: Yes, I remember that. It was the Navy Finance Center. Then they changed to DFAS which apparently handles all branches of miliary. I thought that moved to the Federal Building, but Google maps still shows it as DFAS. It's mainly at Celebreeze but there are some satellite offices in Bratenhal. We almost lost it to Denver because of some misinformation the Pentagon had, but Steven LaTourette and his staff, especially Debbie Setliff (Winston while writing for the Plain Dealer), cut through the BS and it not only stayed but expanded.
February 13Feb 13 ^ there is a big dfas facility in east columbus. maybe it consolidated there? on a personal note, they have (or had?) a golf course attached for the generals and brass and my friend was the golf pro/manager for it for many years.
February 13Feb 13 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: It's mainly at Celebreeze but there are some satellite offices in Bratenhal. We almost lost it to Denver because of some misinformation the Pentagon had, but Steven LaTourette and his staff, especially Debbie Setliff (Winston while writing for the Plain Dealer), cut through the BS and it not only stayed but expanded. Also John McCain stuck his neck out and pushed for Cleveland after I discussed with him and showed him the data vs what was being presented. I was able to get his ear because I became a friend of the family after working with him in other capacities in DC. Edited February 13Feb 13 by willyboy
February 13Feb 13 12 minutes ago, willyboy said: Also John McCain stuck his neck out and pushed for Cleveland after I discussed with him and showed him the data vs what was being presented. I was able to get his ear because I became a friend of the family after working with him in other capacities in DC. Did they ever figure out where the bad data came from?
February 13Feb 13 3 hours ago, E Rocc said: Did they ever figure out where the bad data came from? if I remember right I think it mostly had to do with Indianapolis manipulating data to artificially make them look better and make Cleveland look bad (because maybe 1 of the 2 was supposed to be closed?).
February 13Feb 13 1 minute ago, willyboy said: if I remember right I think it mostly had to do with Indianapolis manipulating data to artificially make them look better and make Cleveland look bad (because maybe 1 of the 2 was supposed to be closed?). I think you remember pretty well. Chicago tried the same stuff over the Cleveland Defense Contract Administration Region. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
February 13Feb 13 13 minutes ago, willyboy said: if I remember right I think it mostly had to do with Indianapolis manipulating data to artificially make them look better and make Cleveland look bad (because maybe 1 of the 2 was supposed to be closed?). I think it would have been Denver because they ended up replacing Cleveland on the closure list.
February 14Feb 14 I thought I was replying to comments about building parking garages wrapped in mixed use in the Brook Park thread thinking I was in this one, and jokingly said to build a copy of most of Dublin, OH's Bridge Park. And then thought it'd be funny to name it The Land Bridge Park and connect it with the land bridge. Then I just had to test out what that would look like. So just copying and pasting at scale for fun.... This would have..... - About 2800 garage spaces -145 hotel rooms -25-30 townhomes -350ish? apartments hard to get an accurate number because they don't have the number of units listed by individual building -30+ retail spaces -poorly drawn green areas are land bridge and other
February 17Feb 17 Lake Shore Power Station site redo a long play By Ken Prendergast / February 17, 2025 The owner of one of Cleveland’s largest privately owned lakefront properties announced its intentions to redevelop the site. But some of its proposed uses were not welcomed by a lakefront advocacy group. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2025/02/17/lake-shore-power-station-site-redo-a-long-play/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 17Feb 17 ^ minor note, but the hq of ida power is in utah. they just have a similar site in the bottom of staten that they remediated (the old port mobile site), which now sits empty. they also did the nearby bayonne military terminal site, which is seeing residential development, along with several other major industrial sites around the country. seems like the right people for a major remediation job, but i dk about their redevelopment capabilities. i don’t think they are involved in the bayonne projects. Edited February 17Feb 17 by mrnyc
February 17Feb 17 1 hour ago, KJP said: Lake Shore Power Station site redo a long play By Ken Prendergast / February 17, 2025 The owner of one of Cleveland’s largest privately owned lakefront properties announced its intentions to redevelop the site. But some of its proposed uses were not welcomed by a lakefront advocacy group. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2025/02/17/lake-shore-power-station-site-redo-a-long-play/ “Commercial and industrial uses should be banned, period,” Clough said in a email to NEOtrans. " Restaurants and clubs are "commercial" and I would say pretty much any city with an active lakefront includes them. This isn't how things get done, or how one stays relevant. Edited February 17Feb 17 by E Rocc
February 17Feb 17 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: “Commercial and industrial uses should be banned, period,” Clough said in a email to NEOtrans. " Restaurants and clubs are "commercial" and I would say pretty much any city with an active lakefront includes them. This isn't how things get done, or how one stays relevant. I don’t understand your concern, Clough‘s complete quote in the article specifically mentions that it’s an “ideal location of residential and a unique setting for restaurants and clubs.” He is in support of building both at this location to capitalize on the upcoming CHEERS investments. It seems like the commercial uses he is cautioning against are things like the solar facilities, data centers, battery energy storage, etc that might be better placed somewhere like opportunity corridor vs along the lake.
February 17Feb 17 21 minutes ago, Henke said: I don’t understand your concern, Clough‘s complete quote in the article specifically mentions that it’s an “ideal location of residential and a unique setting for restaurants and clubs.” He is in support of building both at this location to capitalize on the upcoming CHEERS investments. It seems like the commercial uses he is cautioning against are things like the solar facilities, data centers, battery energy storage, etc that might be better placed somewhere like opportunity corridor vs along the lake. Those are industrial more than commercial. Restaurants and clubs are definitely "commercial".
February 17Feb 17 1 minute ago, E Rocc said: Those are industrial more than commercial. Restaurants and clubs are definitely "commercial". The guy clearly misspoke because he talks about restaurants and clubs.
February 17Feb 17 I will never understand how First Energy was able to walk away without addressing their own polluted cooling ponds during the demo process. Reading that literally made me mad. And I would agree that another industrial use at this site would be the last thing needed. Minus the polluted ponds, this is a blank slate to work with right o in front of the lake. Yes to the restaurants, places to live, clubs, and normal things you would find on a waterfront in a major city. Skip the industrial uses- there’s plenty of vacant land inland to work with for those uses. Rant off. Edited February 17Feb 17 by Oldmanladyluck
February 18Feb 18 10 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said: I will never understand how First Energy was able to walk away without addressing their own polluted cooling ponds during the demo process. Reading that literally made me mad. And I would agree that another industrial use at this site would be the last thing needed. Minus the polluted ponds, this is a blank slate to work with right o in front of the lake. Yes to the restaurants, places to live, clubs, and normal things you would find on a waterfront in a major city. Skip the industrial uses- there’s plenty of vacant land inland to work with for those uses. Rant off. Is this site big enough for an NFL stadium?
February 18Feb 18 1 hour ago, Cleburger said: Is this site big enough for an NFL stadium? It's twice the size of the current stadium site. But demolition work on the remaining power plant structures won't start until 2028. It also requires significant regrading to level it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 18Feb 18 3 hours ago, KJP said: It's twice the size of the current stadium site. But demolition work on the remaining power plant structures won't start until 2028. It also requires significant regrading to level it. Seems like a potential meeting half way? Maybe a waterfront line extension to reach it? And a surrounding mixed-use development with Jimmy given the parking on game days?
February 18Feb 18 49 minutes ago, Cleburger said: Seems like a potential meeting half way? Maybe a waterfront line extension to reach it? And a surrounding mixed-use development with Jimmy given the parking on game days? That's what I was thinking. Does the city own any surrounding land? Maybe that could be used in some sort of agreement to build residentials.
February 18Feb 18 18 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: That's what I was thinking. Does the city own any surrounding land? Maybe that could be used in some sort of agreement to build residentials. How about we completely eliminate East 72nd from the tracks to 90. Make the Railroad underpass a park entrance. Turn all of this into a massive Gordon Park. The underpass on 90 can help extend the park to the north section, with the roadway and ramps removed.
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