I wonder which slip the port will fill.  For future development purposes and to maximize the land value, I would go for the western-most slip.

 

Question: does the port own the land directly to the north of CBS? 

Answer:  the Port does not own that land, the City does.  Although, the Port used to own that property.

 

Likely, the port would not fill the easternmost slip, since they will gradually move operations, starting with the City owned property to the east.

There's no reason that couldn't be accomplished through contemporary urban design.  Just because something has failed in the past doesn't mean we should banish it from the vocabulary of American planning.  Not sure if you realize this, but modernism died several decades ago, unfortunately IM Pei didn't get the memo.  X, you and I agree on the outcome we want for the site, but for the direction to get to that point, I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

 

I realize modernism died several decades ago.  I see the current wave of contemporary design as "neo-modernism".  I think that the underlying ethos, aesthetic principles, and shortcomings are pretty much the same.  I just left the "neo" out of the text.  And don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we could achieve the things I think are important on this site with a contemporary design.  But I don't see that happening.

I really think the confusion of contemporary architecture as the modernist idea of "sculpture in the park" and one of "stark geometries" is one that needs to be challenged.  The ideas of density, or lack there of on the horizontal plane, the demolition of supposedly inferior historic structures, were part of the modernist mindset, and for some like I.M. Pei, Cesar Pelli, they still are.  The unfortunate thing is that this has come to represent contemporary design in the minds of some people especially in Cleveland.

The fact is, many of today's architects and urban planners are concerned with densifying (or redensifying in the case of Great Lakes' cities) of the urban condition through mixing uses and bluring the line between public and private space.  The fact that the port site is a completely blank slate and isolated from the existing urban fabric for the most part, frees it from the typical copying and recycling of motifs and fake cornices that are almost always included in in-fill projects.  This could be viewed as an opportunity to DEFINE the correct way in which to instill contemporary ideals in planning and design to the urban public forum.  Shying away from creating new solutions, when the opportunity to maximize a new situation exists (the center city density has never really engaged the water before), for preconceived ideals would be an acceptance of failure and proof of stagnation.

I think Cleveland is at an interesting place right now. There is a lot of opportunity to set the stage in a huge way for the next several decades .. in lots of ways. This lakefront neighborhood is one of them.

 

I'll be interested to see what comes of this. I really hope for the best. But what I really hope for is grand. Not safe. Not mediocre. But something that shows that Cleveland is a great place to be. Because it is a great place. I don't want anything less for it.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/04/port_staff_to_recommend_ehrenk.html

 

Port staff to recommend Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects to design new waterfront

Posted by Steven Litt/Plain Dealer Architecture Critic

April 06, 2009 23:46PM

 

 

A nationally respected planning and architecture firm that has designed acclaimed waterfront developments on the East and West coasts is lined up to do the same for Cleveland.

 

Staff members of the Port of Cleveland today are to recommend to the port's Real Estate Committee that Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects of New York should design a new plan for more than 100 acres of downtown waterfront controlled by the port.

 

The assignment, for which the Ehrenkrantz firm will be paid up to $400,000, calls for completing a 20-year vision for the downtown docks west of Cleveland Browns Stadium and east of the mouth of the Cuyahoga River, an area now occupied by scattered warehouses, gravel piles and a pair of cement silos...

best line, imo, "Wintertime is a major part of the design."

Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects

 

http://www.eekarchitects.com/

Sorry I'm out of the loop, but does the current work on the shoreway have anything to do with plans to turn it into a boulevard with north-south access to Edgewater and the lake?

Not really.  I understand it to be a replacement for an old sewer pipe, which they would have had to do regardless of the boulevard conversion.

Not really. I understand it to be a replacement for an old sewer pipe, which they would have had to do regardless of the boulevard conversion.

 

Yes. That's correct.

City to raze long-empty HoJo near Cleveland's Shoreway

By STAN BULLARD

Crains Cleveland Business

1:13 pm, April 28, 2009

 

A demolition crew is preparing to flatten the long-empty, 12-story hotel towering over the Shoreway at 5700 S. Marginal Road near downtown Cleveland.

 

Jamie Blackson Baker, executive director of the St. Clair-Superior Coalition local development corporation, said the city of Cleveland has hired a contractor to demolish the property. A crew from Precision Environmental Inc. of Independence, a demolition contractor, is preparing to level the building, she said.

 

Originally a Howard Johnson Motor Inn and Restaurant, the weed and graffiti-bedecked property has languished empty for more than a decade. Over the past 20 years, it has gone through two foreclosure sales. Lakeview 2006 LLC, a Cleveland investor group, has owned the property for two years, according to Cuyahoga County land records.

 

“That’s the best news I could hear,” Ms. Blackson Baker said this morning of the demolition. “It’s an obsolete building but a catalytic property.”

 

She said the site is important because of its prominence near the lake and its location in an area the nonprofit development group and city planners are positioning as an international trade district.

 

The hotel is south of the lakefront site where the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority wants to move port operations. The long-term move would make way for redeveloping the port’s downtown lakefront.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090428/FREE/904289946

Between this and the news of the White Motor Site, sounds like this area might be getting ready for something.  It would be great to get all of this industrial nature stuff into a really struggling neighborhood due to the low density nature of this type of building.  This would also help focus using the river/lake downtown towards it's best use.  Here's to hoping!

^One can only hope this area could see further investment.  This is one of those neighborhoods which has been ignored for too long, but has obvious potential.

I wish I could say that I am sad to see it go, but I am not.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/04/clevelands_downtown_waterfront.html

 

CLEVELAND -- Cleveland's new image will start with a walkable waterfront that embraces all the allure and activity a river and a Great Lake can bring, influential planners and developers say.

 

That includes public squares, promenades and fishing piers in a world-class, maritime neighborhood that port, city and civic leaders envision for the gritty port lands on Cleveland's downtown lakefront.

 

During afternoon and evening sessions, four experts in urban redevelopment captivated crowds totaling more than 200 at the Great Lakes Science Center and Cleveland State University with views on how the 100 acres west of Cleveland Browns Stadium can become a regional signature.

 

"What we do with our great assets . . . will reshape Cleveland for decades to come," Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson said.

 

 

I went to the thing at CSU.  Interesting but nonspecific.  A "rah rah" type talk trying to give Clevelanders a kick in the pants.

The rest of the article had some great comments from the panelists.

 

Will this plan go beyond the rhetoric, though? I hope so. Sounds good so far, though.

you know, I put up a negative comment on cleveland.com.  Maybe this is the genesis of the cleveland condition, hearing a great plan and dreading the day when Forest City and their lackeys at the PD kill it once Forest City decides it did not get enough money out of it...

(I searched for a Port of Cleveland thread but couldn't find one...  I'm sure this will be moved to where it's supposed to go...  :) )

 

Moving Port of Cleveland gives city the chance to reinvent a downtown Cleveland waterfront

 

A forum was held Thursday night to discuss the revitalization of 100 acres of lakefront property in downtown Cleveland once the Port of Cleveland moves to East 55th Street.

 

About 150 people attended the forum, entitled "Transforming Cleveland by Building a WorldClass Waterfront", which was held at the Maxine Goodman Levin College of Urban Affairs at Cleveland State University.

 

This was one of the first public meetings about the waterfront although Eric Anthony Johnson, real estate director for the Port of Cleveland, said multiple meetings will be held this summer and fall.  The focus of this meeting wasn't to show development plans or architectural renderings (there aren't any) but to provide an overall vision of what the waterfront could be.

 

The number one message of all four speakers was to create a sense of place -- the private development around those public spaces will come later.  It's up to the public sector to create public boardwalks and parks and sidewalks and bike paths and courtyards.  Development will automatically happen around those areas if the city and county focuses on creating a unique sense of place.

 

Complete article at http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-6824-Downtown-Cleveland-Examiner~y2009m5d1-Moving-Port-of-Cleveland-gives-city-the-chance-to-reinvent-a-downtown-Cleveland-waterfront

Did anyone go to the meetings yesterday?  There was one at the Science Center and another at Levin.  Seemed to be a pretty good crowd at Levin.

Yes.  A series of success stories from around the world.  The former Mayor of Pittsburgh, a boisterous fellow spoke of the redevelopment of Pittsburgh's riverfront(s).  A public-private guy from England spoke about redeveloping docklands in I think Birmingham as well as the much larger-scale conversion of derelict land in London for the upcoming Olympics.  Then Stanton Eckstut spoke about his firm's experience with waterfront projects (Inner Harbor, Baltimore) and how they compare in scale to the property in Cleveland.  Finally Juan Alayo spoke about the transformation in Bilbao, Spain.  They took a handful of questions, but for most of them, the question was read and the answer was "We acknowledge your concern," more or less.  Pretty big crowd; the message: "You have a chance for something special, Cleveland".  The subtext: "Don't screw it up."  The guy from the UK even said as much in his closing comment, something like, "and I'll be back every few years to make sure you're getting it right."

 

The most interesting thing as far as specifics was the architect from EEK speaking of phased development and suggesting that it was possible for a small but self-identifiable place/neighborhood could be ..ready..exist(?) in 3-5 years.  I smirked a little and wasn't sure exactly how or where they plan to accomplish that since the port can't move for quite some time.

I'm giddy over the idea of moving forward so quickly.  That 2020 talk isn't likely to generate much support.  So many issues are more pressing than what we could be doing somewhere in 2020.  Of course, if they start building so soon that gives us a lot less time to do a master plan.   

I'm giddy over the idea of moving forward so quickly.  That 2020 talk isn't likely to generate much support.  So many issues are more pressing than what we could be doing somewhere in 2020.  Of course, if they start building so soon that gives us a lot less time to do a master plan.   

 

Not sure what mathematical formula works, but if you take the amount of time it will take to relocate the port and transfix it with the amount of time it has taken just to complete the medmart deal, this might take some time. 

 

I kid, I kid.  I just want this done asap.  I know it is a huge endeavor to relocate the port, but I'm hoping as one piece moves, development can get phased in.

I think the time thing is a very reasonable concern, given the amount of in-fighting, especially recently, that goes on.

 

I personally doubt that time estimate. Show me.

Yes.  A series of success stories from around the world.  The former Mayor of Pittsburgh, a boisterous fellow spoke of the redevelopment of Pittsburgh's riverfront(s).  A public-private guy from England spoke about redeveloping docklands in I think Birmingham as well as the much larger-scale conversion of derelict land in London for the upcoming Olympics.  Then Stanton Eckstut spoke about his firm's experience with waterfront projects (Inner Harbor, Baltimore) and how they compare in scale to the property in Cleveland.  Finally Juan Alayo spoke about the transformation in Bilbao, Spain.  They took a handful of questions, but for most of them, the question was read and the answer was "We acknowledge your concern," more or less.  Pretty big crowd; the message: "You have a chance for something special, Cleveland".  The subtext: "Don't screw it up."  The guy from the UK even said as much in his closing comment, something like, "and I'll be back every few years to make sure you're getting it right."

 

The most interesting thing as far as specifics was the architect from EEK speaking of phased development and suggesting that it was possible for a small but self-identifiable place/neighborhood could be ..ready..exist(?) in 3-5 years.  I smirked a little and wasn't sure exactly how or where they plan to accomplish that since the port can't move for quite some time.

 

The plan is for the port to consolidate and open up some of the land for development in that 3-5 year time frame.  I thought one of the most interesting aspects of the presentation was the overlays showing just how monsterous the amount of land we have to work with is.  They fit just about every recent waterfront development in the country in about a quarter of the land we will have available.  They mentioned this is one of the best things about our land... and one of our biggest obstacles.  Because essentially it would be impossible to build this out all at once.  Even if somehow you could figure out where to get the billions upon billions of dollars to do it all at once, you could never support a development that large.  It has to be phased in.  Their timeline is faster than I would have thought.  They want to have a pretty comprehensice plan in the next 5-6 months.  I am going to be most interested in seeing what their phasing looks like.  What area are they planning on opening first, and how will it connect to both the water and the existing city.  It will be tough to work if the first section is all by itself on an island so to speak... I'd imagine the parking lot land directly west of the stadium on w. 3rd would make the most sense.... guess we'll find out soon enough. :)

 

ADD:  I also really liked what I heard in terms of overall vision... Narrow streets (which help protect against the cold and winds... but also add a more intimate feel), public squares, promendades, peirs, parkland... ensuring the waterfront itself is open to the public, and not just for rich people in condos and companies... making sure that housing hits all price points.  I think there was a lot to like in what they were saying.

yes, grow out from existing parcels that are developed and then creepy crawl your way out.  I see what you are saying though, no one is going to want to walk thru deserted/vacant land to reach a new lakefront attraction

I think the time thing is a very reasonable concern, given the amount of in-fighting, especially recently, that goes on.

 

I personally doubt that time estimate. Show me.

 

The med mart and the port land aren't even comparable.  The med mart issues stem from private companies and public $ and the political leanings in play.  The port is privately controlled land.  They can sell it to whomever they choose to develop it.  And wasserman simply doesn't give a sh*t about the nonsense in this town.  I'd be very surprised if they select a local developer.  I think the biggest obstacle will be the easing of the credit markets by the time they are ready to move forward.  No money... no buildings.

Good points. I still think there's a possibility for them to fuck things up, but I'm really excited about the prospects. This project can literally completely change the future and look of Cleveland more or less forever. It's a project of massive scope, in my opinion. I really hope they treat it as such.

 

Also, I believe in one of the posts about the meetings, someone mentioned the land just west of North Coast Harbor as a possibile first piece of development.

 

I think the whole "build it in stages" idea is an absolutely smart one, one that totally makes sense for a development of this size. I hope that they'll be able to get something off the ground in that timetable, but one never knows.

 

Cleveland is in such an interesting position right now, I think. In so many areas of the city, I really feel like there's almost a sense of a blank canvas opportunity. With proper, smart urban planning and collaboration, it really can become something quite special.

I think coming up with early stages that can stand on their own and not get dwarfed by their surroundings will be the toughest challenge second only to overcoming the geographical and infrastructure obstacles to connecting the area with the rest of downtown. 

 

The two go hand in hand somewhat.  The overlays of the waterfront development onto our land, that showed how large our piece of real estate is, were eye opening.  Looking at the land in photos or in person, you don't get a good sense of the scale of the place because the Cleveland Browns Stadium is such a hulking piece of work.  It seems like the area immediately around the stadium will be the first available land to develop, so it is a major challenge to create a human-scaled development next to such a massive structure.  At the same time, the area is isolated by rail and concrete highways.  Best of luck.

there are certainly challenges tying the lakefront into the existing city grid... but hey... that's why the port is paying these guys almost 400k right?  Also why I keep coming back to the parking lot land to the west of the stadium.  It's on w. 3rd which at least gives it some semblance of a link to the warehouse district.  I'd also imagine they would look at extending w. 6th in a similar manner.  These reasons are also why I don't think they could use the land north of Browns stadium yet, even though the thought of connecting to North Coast harbor is nice... It would just be too isolated from the rest of the city with a giant stadium blocking your way.  Certainly a LOT of challenges... I'm looking forward to some creative solutions.

Hopefully the area won't seem as isolated once the FEB project is included.  The distance and the obstacles probably mean a somewhat self-sufficient retail/service scene will be needed down there.  That doesn't mean big stuff or tons of stuff... I'm thinking pretty much what was already envisioned for the FEB.

FEB is currently deader than a door nail, unless there is some miraculous parting of the credit clouds in the EXTREMELY near future.  The project is on life support mainly because it still has many commitments. As soon as those are pulled, FEB as we know it in the current incantation is dead. And both Tucker Ellis and E&Y have expering leases that are going to force them to find a new home very very quickly.

 

But yes... IF that were somehow able to revive itself, it would solve many of these problems and allow us to move forward along the river towards the lake.  That being said.  It's highly unlikely.

I think they need to start with a piece of land that will create immediate interest though.  Waterfront land certainly has a more likely chance of initial investment than a lot across from Browns stadium.  Some serious investigation into how to create a visually acceptable barrier between the stadium and anything else built is no doubt a significant challenge.

^ I guess I was thinking more along the lines of actual isolation and not the visual barrier.  No doubt the land north of the stadium is way way more appealing... but how long on foot do you think it would take to reach the city?  It would almost need to be a self inclusive environment.

 

EDIT: Maybe I'm thinking too much like a FCE employee... the stadium isn't that far away.  Access to Voinovich park (as worthless as it is... maybe that could be redone as part of their scope) and being on directly on the water with some type of boardwalk or pier is a much better starting point than w. 3rd.

^ I guess I was thinking more along the lines of actual isolation and not the visual barrier. No doubt the land north of the stadium is way way more appealing... but how long on foot do you think it would take to reach the city? It would almost need to be a self inclusive environment.

 

EDIT: Maybe I'm thinking too much like a FCE employee... the stadium isn't that far away. Access to Voinovich park (as worthless as it is... maybe that could be redone as part of their scope) and being on directly on the water with some type of boardwalk or pier is a much better starting point than w. 3rd.

 

I think you were right the first time.  The far side of the stadium is a lot further away from everything than the mall is.  I'd like to see Voinovich Park redone as a residential tower with a kickin club at the bottom, but that's just me.

eh.  Bottom line is there is no perfect solution here.  Either you start on w. 3rd, which w.28th pointed out would be about the most uninspiring start to a lake front development of all time (it's not even on the lake), or you take the decidely better site.  And include enough of the right type of businesses that it's a destination in it's own right... it could also be a boon for the rock hall and science center to have residences, businesses, restaurants, etc. right near by.  people would actually be connected to the lake.  I've walked from the stadium to w. 6th many many times to and from games. It's not that bad.  And when the weather stinks, people will just use the neighborhood they're in.  They can spread westward and connect to the city from there...  at any rate, it will be interesting to see what they come up with.  All posturing until then.

 

And yes 327, I think you are the only one that wants a residential tower on a concrete island in the middle of the lake.  :wink:

You actually made it sound better than I did.  Tower... island... lake... not too shabby.

^Airport, directly east... makes it kinda shabby lol!

^Airport, directly east... makes it kinda shabby lol!

 

But for how long...?  Now there I'm speculating.  Burke's presence makes the entire end-of-9th area very hard to develop.  Maybe if they could shove the airport eastward on its land mass, this problem could be mitigated.  As you point out, something will need to be done or Burke will jeopardize everything, including the Rockometer.

how far south are they looking?  Do they include the tracks?

they were included in the area but not directly discussed.  I'm sure they'll come up with something... they have to.

Yeah, these plans will definitely be interesting when they are released.  I guess there is a silver lining with our waterfront not being developed after all. 

From Ideastream:  http://www.wcpn.org/index.php/WCPN/news/26025/

Will the port redevelopment have anything to do with the Amtrak station redevelopment?  I'm thinking transportation infrastructure links and access should be a major factor in developing the north coast since its been mainly cut off by highway and rails.  For a revamped/revitalized waterfront line combined with potentially the Ohio Hub, this would seem be the basis of a vital "gold coast" community. 

Sad. I always thought this would be an integral part of the lakefront plan.

:-(

 

Plan ends to run trolleys, museum in Cleveland

5/26/2009, 9:46 a.m. EDT

The Associated Press

 

(AP) — CLEVELAND - A nonprofit group that had planned to build a trolley loop and museum has abandoned the idea and instead will auction its stable of more than 30 trolley cars.

 

Lake Shore Electric Railway Inc. said it may put the cars on the auction block by July, The Plain Dealer reported in Tuesday's editions.

 

The recession has put the brakes on fundraising, and Lake Shore Electric can't ignore debts and mounting costs any longer, said spokesman Mark Ricchiuto...

 

http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/national-19/1243348176198180.xml&storylist=cleveland

 

This tells me there is very little money in Cleveland anymore. I'm aware of other worthwhile projects out there which are also struggling for want of money, including the B&O Roundhouse museum, immigration museum at the old B&O station, African-American Sports Hall of Fame, the Hewletts, and more. We'd better get some new money in this town soon, if anything just to dillute the influence of the tired old dogs like those at Forest City. But we need it to get more philanthropic funding for projects like these which keep withering on the vine. I hope the trolley cars find a new home in a city with some money.

This tells me there is very little money in Cleveland anymore. I'm aware of other worthwhile projects out there which are also struggling for want of money, including the B&O Roundhouse museum, immigration museum at the old B&O station, African-American Sports Hall of Fame, the Hewletts, and more. We'd better get some new money in this town soon, if anything just to dillute the influence of the tired old dogs like those at Forest City. But we need it to get more philanthropic funding for projects like these which keep withering on the vine. I hope the trolley cars find a new home in a city with some money.

 

This is a reaction that I had at first as well, but I think in the end its a little melodramatic.  Charitable giving across the entire country has dried up, this is not merely a Cleveland thing.  And when you consider the amount of money that was bequeathed to the CMA, the Orchestra, etc, from certain individual donors in their respective formative years, well, you just don't see that done much anymore.  We're lucky we had the money back then to create these great institutions, and frankly, you are not seeing such similar scale of generosity in Miami, Phoenix, Charlotte, etc. today as you saw in Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, etc back in the 1910s and '20s.

 

Do I wake up everyday and wish I had hundreds of millions of dollars that I could donate to orgs. such as the Trolley Museum?  Of course!  But those who do have such money to give are today rightfully dividing their fortunes up between a multitude of worthwhile organizations, rather and very rarely providing for the entire funding needs of a single museum or foundation.

 

This doesn't help orgs such as the trolley museum, but it seems that if you want to attract the attention and generosity of large donors today, you need to have a clear, sustainable business plan, and open and transparent books.  I don't know much about the trolley museum organization beyond what I read on here and what I read in the PD, but it seems like their very quickly acquired a number of trolley cars without a viable plan for what they were really going to do with them.  They were clearly enthusiasts, but it seemed like maybe they too aggressively pursued the fun part (buying the "toys") and hoped everything else would fall into place.

^excellent points

They acquired the trolley cars because they had to. The former property owner in Olmsted Falls sold their property and didn't want Trolleyville USA on it, giving them a short timeline to find a new home. The community came to their temporary to keep the collection from being dispersed nationwide. East Coast interests supporting trolley museums in their neck of the woods were licking their chops at buying the collection. We tried to keep it here but ultimately could not.

 

And I'm not referring the economics of the last few years, but of the last few decades. The fact is this region is nowhere as wealthy or as economically powerful as it used to be, and failed projects like this are a leading economic indicator. Greater Cleveland used to compete with New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago for quality of life assets. Now we are content to compete with Buffalo, Columbus and Indianapolis.

 

Sorry to be too melodramatic for you. But it is not inaccurate. It is the sad, sorry truth.